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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Apr 20, 2022 20:26:55 GMT
And yet actual random themes and cogent trajectories for the characters at the same time. TRoS is like an (awesome) parody of a Star Wars film. Taking "awesome" out of parenthesis and proceeding only with the strictest native definitional sense of the word, I might squarely agree with this statement.
Rerouted, I stand by my claim made at the top of this thread page that Episode IX is a spiritual lycanthrope of '90s Paul W.S. Anderson. Observe:
When they get to Exegol, which has been compared often to Event Horizon, the movie has fully accepted itself as shlock, but I stand by my words that it is awesome shlock. While the Lucas films were based on pulp adventure serials of the 30's, being a Flash Gordon pastiche in large part, Abrams takes the series a few decades forward in time to 80's and 90's sci-fi B-movie territory, the likes of which you point out. TRoS feels like a crazy new ride, a bizarro world Star Wars. Since it has a 80's/90's feel, it's fitting because that's when Lucas could have done the sequel trilogy, as many people wanted him to. TFA felt like a modern day Marvel/Jurassic World type movie with fourth wall breaking quipping. TLJ also felt like a cynical movie of the current times. In summary, I like and appreciate the sci-fi shlock feel of a bygone era that TRoS has. |
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Post by Ingram on Apr 20, 2022 20:43:22 GMT
It's curious how we're capable of connecting with divisive monster works of popular entertainment. I didn't much connect with anything ST period, save for fleeting aspects of its middle installment; Episode IX remains for me a thing that happened + 0. But takeaways such as yours at the very least warrant appreciation. On some innerspace plane of cinema-junkie consciousness, I empathize.
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Post by Cryogenic on Apr 21, 2022 2:19:43 GMT
It's good to have you back too, Cryogenic .  Again a formidable post from you packed with much content. Thanks, Seeker. Even in just this thread, with only a handful of posts, you're slaying it with every reply. Arfour, scramble code five to Coruscant, care of the Old Folks' Home. Very good insight! We also see that in the teaser trailer for TROS, which blatantly steals a line from the iconic TPM teaser trailer: TPM: TROS: Looking back, I wonder if this "legend" is also meant to echo the tale of Darth Plagueis in ROTS, which Palpatine introduces as "a Sith legend"? The legend in TPM could therefore be Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan -- the Jedi version to the Sith legend of Palpatine/Plagueis. Which would add to the feeling of "inevitability" Abrams has spoken about wanting to imbue Episode IX with. Anyway, just a neat little reading that TROS invites the viewer to make. "Look what you have made." No, seriously. It almost wants you to complete the circuit yourself. As at the end of "Star Trek: The Motion Picture" (which Ingram and I were just discussing in another thread), a critical wire is severed, deliberately, because you're meant to "join" with the movies and do the last bit yourself -- a bit like Palpatine trying to get Rey to strike him down so all the Sith can live in her. Interesting interpretation! So, in a way (and, I admit, I might be scrambling you a bit here!), JJ started off as a loyal apprentice in TFA (or what he thought was being loyal to the "quintessential" formula of Star Wars). But in TROS, he embraced "a larger view of the Force", because he had always been looking for "a life greater than that of an ordinary Jedi: a life of significance, of conscience", and he found it by slaying Lucas, or his earlier self, and taking on many of the prequel attributes of Star Wars, while still being loyal to his own conception of the series: i.e., he became more of his own person and finally put his mark on the franchise. Pyrogenic has previously said that, far from shitting on the other movies, TROS embraces the prequels in a very literal way by homaging their titles: i.e., TROS Palpatine is a PHANTOM CLONED SITH. It's also kind of interesting that Rey and Kylo duel in Kylo's quarters and they jointly smash that obelisk holding the Vader helmet (a bit reminiscent of the glass being shattered by Mace and Palpatine in Palpatine's office in ROTS). While JJ didn't quite have it within him to destroy the Vader mask directly on-screen (Kylo drops it from a great height and allows it to shatter in the earlier script treatment by Colin Trevorrow and Derek Connolly which TROS is based on), it is implied to be destroyed when Zombie Palpatine orders the destruction of Kijimi, at Pryde's discretion, a short while later. Before then, its sudden appearance on Kijimi alerts Kylo to Rey's presence on his Star Destroyer -- a totem pointing the way to help advance the conflict. But by the end of the film, most totems are destroyed, put aside, given new owners, or acquire new meanings. Great! I look forward to more activity within this thread in the future. And yet actual random themes and cogent trajectories for the characters at the same time. TRoS is like an (awesome) parody of a Star Wars film. Taking "awesome" out of parenthesis and proceeding only with the strictest native definitional sense of the word, I might squarely agree with this statement. Rerouted, I stand by my claim made at the top of this thread page that Episode IX is a spiritual lycanthrope of '90s Paul W.S. Anderson. Observe:
Cryo: "Fuck it. I'll take it!"
More like... Dang! I miss the 90s. When they get to Exegol, which has been compared often to Event Horizon, the movie has fully accepted itself as shlock, but I stand by my words that it is awesome shlock. While the Lucas films were based on pulp adventure serials of the 30's, being a Flash Gordon pastiche in large part, Abrams takes the series a few decades forward in time to 80's and 90's sci-fi B-movie territory, the likes of which you point out. Well, and to the Dark Empire comic series, which also saw publication in the 1990s. It's funny, really. There was little real indication of the trilogy heading in that direction when TFA came out, but it makes sense. In part, they were playing some of their cards close to their chest. The rest of it is probably because Abrams' star began to rise in that decade, when he became involved in various projects of the 90s, like "Regarding Henry" (1991) with Harrison Ford, "Forever Young" (1992) with Mel Gibson, "Shrek" (1994), "Gone Fishin'" (1997), and "Armageddon" (1998), and then finally his breakout television series "Felicity" (1998-2002). I think Lucas was also heavily influenced by this period on the prequels, especially the awesome success of "Titanic" (1997), as well as the fun he had making "The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles" (1992-1993), from which he drew several key prequel personnel including Rick McCallum, not to mention "Jurassic Park" (1993), which convinced him that digital effects were now good enough to realise his vision, and several of the Disney animated features, which along with "Titanic" seem to have been an influence on the love story in the PT. Abrams, compared to Lucas, just seems to have liked some of the freakier stuff of that period a little better, embracing sci-fi schlock instead of some of the higher-minded ideas Lucas apparently wanted to explore in the ST. Where Lucas said "midi-chlorians", Abrams said "Bring back Palpatine!" Yes, exactly. I'm not keen on the aesthetic of TFA or TLJ. Although I think TFA is moderately enjoyable and TLJ has some decent arthouse qualities. I mean, those movies work well enough on their own terms, but TROS compensates generously for a lot of what they lack, in my opinion. |
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Apr 21, 2022 10:36:34 GMT
It's good to have you back too, Cryogenic . Again a formidable post from you packed with much content. Thanks, Seeker. Even in just this thread, with only a handful of posts, you're slaying it with every reply. Arfour, scramble code five to Coruscant, care of the Old Folks' Home. Very good insight! We also see that in the teaser trailer for TROS, which blatantly steals a line from the iconic TPM teaser trailer: TPM:TROS:Looking back, I wonder if this "legend" is also meant to echo the tale of Darth Plagueis in ROTS, which Palpatine introduces as "a Sith legend"? The legend in TPM could therefore be Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan -- the Jedi version to the Sith legend of Palpatine/Plagueis. Which would add to the feeling of "inevitability" Abrams has spoken about wanting to imbue Episode IX with. Anyway, just a neat little reading that TROS invites the viewer to make. "Look what you have made." No, seriously. It almost wants you to complete the circuit yourself. As at the end of "Star Trek: The Motion Picture" (which Ingram and I were just discussing in another thread), a critical wire is severed, deliberately, because you're meant to "join" with the movies and do the last bit yourself -- a bit like Palpatine trying to get Rey to strike him down so all the Sith can live in her. Interesting interpretation! So, in a way (and, I admit, I might be scrambling you a bit here!), JJ started off as a loyal apprentice in TFA (or what he thought was being loyal to the "quintessential" formula of Star Wars). But in TROS, he embraced "a larger view of the Force", because he had always been looking for "a life greater than that of an ordinary Jedi: a life of significance, of conscience", and he found it by slaying Lucas, or his earlier self, and taking on many of the prequel attributes of Star Wars, while still being loyal to his own conception of the series: i.e., he became more of his own person and finally put his mark on the franchise. Pyrogenic has previously said that, far from shitting on the other movies, TROS embraces the prequels in a very literal way by homaging their titles: i.e., TROS Palpatine is a PHANTOM CLONED SITH. It's also kind of interesting that Rey and Kylo duel in Kylo's quarters and they jointly smash that obelisk holding the Vader helmet (a bit reminiscent of the glass being shattered by Mace and Palpatine in Palpatine's office in ROTS). While JJ didn't quite have it within him to destroy the Vader mask directly on-screen (Kylo drops it from a great height and allows it to shatter in the earlier script treatment by Colin Trevorrow and Derek Connolly which TROS is based on), it is implied to be destroyed when Zombie Palpatine orders the destruction of Kijimi, at Pryde's discretion, a short while later. Before then, its sudden appearance on Kijimi alerts Kylo to Rey's presence on his Star Destroyer -- a totem pointing the way to help advance the conflict. But by the end of the film, most totems are destroyed, put aside, given new owners, or acquire new meanings. Great! I look forward to more activity within this thread in the future. Taking "awesome" out of parenthesis and proceeding only with the strictest native definitional sense of the word, I might squarely agree with this statement. Rerouted, I stand by my claim made at the top of this thread page that Episode IX is a spiritual lycanthrope of '90s Paul W.S. Anderson. Observe:
Cryo: "Fuck it. I'll take it!"
More like... Dang! I miss the 90s. When they get to Exegol, which has been compared often to Event Horizon, the movie has fully accepted itself as shlock, but I stand by my words that it is awesome shlock. While the Lucas films were based on pulp adventure serials of the 30's, being a Flash Gordon pastiche in large part, Abrams takes the series a few decades forward in time to 80's and 90's sci-fi B-movie territory, the likes of which you point out. Well, and to the Dark Empire comic series, which also saw publication in the 1990s. It's funny, really. There was little real indication of the trilogy heading in that direction when TFA came out, but it makes sense. In part, they were playing some of their cards close to their chest. The rest of it is probably because Abrams' star began to rise in that decade, when he became involved in various projects of the 90s, like "Regarding Henry" (1991) with Harrison Ford, "Forever Young" (1992) with Mel Gibson, "Shrek" (1994), "Gone Fishin'" (1997), and "Armageddon" (1998), and then finally his breakout television series "Felicity" (1998-2002). I think Lucas was also heavily influenced by this period on the prequels, especially the awesome success of "Titanic" (1997), as well as the fun he had making "The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles" (1992-1993), from which he drew several key prequel personnel including Rick McCallum, not to mention "Jurassic Park" (1993), which convinced him that digital effects were now good enough to realise his vision, and several of the Disney animated features, which along with "Titanic" seem to have been an influence on the love story in the PT. Abrams, compared to Lucas, just seems to have liked some of the freakier stuff of that period a little better, embracing sci-fi schlock instead of some of the higher-minded ideas Lucas apparently wanted to explore in the ST. Where Lucas said "midi-chlorians", Abrams said "Bring back Palpatine!" Yes, exactly. I'm not keen on the aesthetic of TFA or TLJ. Although I think TFA is moderately enjoyable and TLJ has some decent arthouse qualities. I mean, those movies work well enough on their own terms, but TROS compensates generously for a lot of what they lack, in my opinion. Every generation has a legend. Plagueis, Anakin, Luke, Rey. It's an interesting lineage. It's also interesting that you liken Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan to Plagueis/Palpatine. Both of the masters were proficient in communicating with and influencing the midi-chlorians. Plagueis might have been the originating father of Anakin, while Qui-Gon was the father figure. Then both Obi-Wan and Palpatine become masters to Anakin. There is lot of symmetry between the pairs. You explained well what I was getting at with my slightly fanciful Sith analogy. Like the Sith have to break free of their masters and kill them to take their place, so did the directors of the sequels have to detach themselves from the preconceived notions they had about the Lucas films to make something new. I think both TLJ and especially TRoS accomplished this in their own way, while TFA didn't. TFA still lived in the shadow of its master, afraid to do anything new. TLJ was a step in the right direction, and TRoS kicked everything into high gear. I think TRoS would not have happened at all like it did if not for TLJ, both in good and bad. Probably to Abrams, TLJ was a tragedy. It crushed many of his trilogy plans. But that forced him to think outside of the (mystery) box, and make some bold and strange choices so the story could work. Like I said before, I think the sequel trilogy had a true hero's journey of its own. In this drama, I cast JJ as the hero and RJ as the villain, who is still necessary and useful in pushing the hero. The trilogy started safely at home in TFA, entered the unknown in TLJ where tragedy struck, and finally came out changed and victorious in TRoS. |
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Apr 23, 2022 17:16:14 GMT
I'm watching the movie in bits and pieces and gathering my thoughts. Here are some little musings on the beginning of the film. The Rise of Skywalker starts with Kylo Ren on a killing spree, which completes the same trifecta of massacres committed by Anakin/Vader: The village, the Jedi Temple, and Mustafar.       In-universe, they happen in different order, but in the films, they are related in the same sequence. The massacre of a village on a desert planet is "first blood" for both of them, as far as us as the audience goes. Then the destruction of a Jedi Temple, where we don't actually see either killing the Jedi. And finally a killing spree on Mustafar. The initiation of both Anakin and Kylo into being servants of Palpatine involves them killing the Jedi until the order doesn't exist anymore. Anakin's desire is to keep Padmé alive, so that is what Palpatine promises to use his power for. Kylo's desire is to rule over the First Order and the galaxy, so Palpatine conjures legions of Star Destroyers for him. Both mistrust him at first and make clear their desire to kill him.   I noticed that this became about mirroring scenes, which is not what I intended specifically, but it's something I naturally gravitate towards as the simplest and most effective way to communicate ideas. Words are not my forte. I find using images to be much easier. These movies invite the viewer to connect the pieces and to read them in this way. I'm jumping all over the place with these ideas, not necessarily doing them in order. Rey and Kylo confronting Palpatine together has similarities to Anakin and Obi-Wan's duels with Dooku. By TRoS, Palpatine has stopped fighting through proxies, and deals with them himself.          I'll continue this later. |
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Apr 24, 2022 13:30:46 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2022 21:43:21 GMT
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Post by Cryogenic on May 4, 2022 1:01:55 GMT
I'm sure this has been mentioned already (I'll be slightly disappointed if it hasn't  ), but:
"Transfer the message. Get it to Leia."Boolio, voiced by Mark Hamill. It actually hasn't! I kept meaning to mention it for ages. You've saved me the work.  Once again, a neat little cameo like that -- and no, the first time I watched TROS, I didn't pick up on it -- speaks directly to the network of little trinkets and Easter Eggs strewn throughout TROS. There are, in fact, several unlikely cameos in the film, covered on the following page: www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/12/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-cameos-who-were-the-jedi-voices-jodie-comer-reys-mom/ampOne of the more surprising is J.J. Abrams himself performing the voice of D-O: Unfortunately, one person not mentioned on that page is Sally Guinness -- granddaughter of, yes, the mighty Sir Alec Guinness. She appears briefly in TROS as a member of the Supreme Council during the scene in which Kylo returns in his masked form. She is one of several characters who watches helplessly as Kylo ends up choking and flinging to the ceiling another Supreme Council member, in an echo of his grandfather, after the member impertinently asks what Palpatine is asking for (the unspoken answer: for Kylo to kill Rey) in return for use of his massive Sith fleet: www.reddit.com/r/MovieDetails/comments/ovpt5v/in_the_rise_of_skywalker_2019_the_woman_on_the/www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/fkxikp/alec_guinness_granddaughter_sally_makes_a_cameo/  Strangely, Sally Guinness is not mentioned under the full list of Cast & Crew credits on IMDb: www.imdb.com/title/tt2527338/fullcredits/?ref_=tt_ql_clNevertheless, her inclusion is a nice touch that reflects the generational overtones of the film, as well as the wider saga to which it belongs and serves as commentary upon. As this article puts it: nerdist.com/article/star-wars-rise-of-skywalker-documentary-8-things-learned/Harrison! You couldn't make this shit up. All these touches render TROS that bit deeper and affecting, I think. We see Billie Lourd carrying a stand-in of her mother away when Leia is about to make contact with Kylo and give up her life on the rebel base (and who then has a very meta funeral: "Goodbye, dear Princess"), while Warwick Davis having a son with that name, in a movie in which Harrison Ford performs a sneak cameo as Han, confronting his (fictional) son in the film (and who may be Luke or Leia in disguise), enhances the metaphysical overtones of the whole piece. The subtle allusion, meanwhile, conveyed by Alec Guinness' granddaughter working for the bad guys, in the same picture in which Rey, as the revealed granddaughter of Palpatine, straddles a dark path as she struggles to integrate disparate parts of her psyche and is taunted by Palpatine into killing him, makes the whole thing even more satisfying; and even a tad surreal. Like you say here: Totally. As the crawl starts out: "The dead speak!" All the oblique, phantasmagoric happenings in Star Wars ultimately point to the deeper reality of the Force. Star Wars is basically a grand religious painting for a secular age. And like all the great religious paintings of history, there are intricate and arcane meanings, and various diegetic layers, woven within. What is religion -- in its deepest, best form -- if not the hope for a better existence, a brighter tomorrow? The following quotes are all sourced from an online version of "The Omega Seed: An Eschatological Hypothesis", by Paolo Soleri, 1981: And this was George Lucas' blazing intent in the first place, wasn't it? To give young people hope and encourage them to ponder the greater mysteries of life -- THE Great Mystery, in fact: billmoyers.com/content/mythology-of-star-wars-george-lucas/Good, er... catch.  Yes, a most interesting case of symmetry, indeed. Indeed. To sit and ponder things on this tiny blue dot and to think we know all there is to know about life and death, space and time, energy and matter, and consciousness itself, would be an act of extreme arrogance and insolence on our part. Star Wars, in its own colourful and charming way, points to deeper realities. As any high-quality, well-developed piece of art does. It's kind of our own way of saying: "Let us be humble. But also let us be bold, daring, and unafraid of embracing imagination." |
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Post by stampidhd280pro on Mar 25, 2023 11:36:26 GMT
For what it's worth, I was in a dark place during the lockdown, and usually very drunk and full of negative emotions and took it out on the sequel trilogy. But I have come around to these movies again. There's still some picky little snags that I don't really understand, like Rose's decreased role in TROS and the unexplained little moment between Lando and his daughter(?), but the overall story is satisfying, TROS in particular is a delight to watch, and TLJ always manages to make me cry, more than any other SW picture. They really do convincingly pay homage to the rhythms and impressions of the original six film cycle, even if the sequels are very different stylistically. Watching the sequels in one sitting never seems to work for me, but three consecutive days does the trick.
I've probably proposed this before, and changed my mind, but if the story of Star Wars was a weekly cycle, it would be:
Day One: The Phantom Menace
Day Two: Attack of the Clones
Day Three: Revenge of the Sith/A New Hope
Day Four: The Empire Strikes Back
Day Five: Return of the Jedi/The Force Awakens
Day Six: The Last Jedi
Day Seven: The Rise of Skywalker
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Apr 10, 2023 8:53:54 GMT
The ST could have been decent if it had a proper foundation. JJ was the worst possible choice to set up a new status quo, because he likes his empty "mystery boxes" and just regurgitates nostalgic elements with little tact. He was much better suited to direct the off-the-wall RotJ-like final installment. RJ fit the bleaker middle chapter, and I think TLJ has aged the best out of the ST. But man, I still can't get over how bland TFA is. It's so self-referential that it takes me out of the movie. It feels like a Star Wars pastiche, not an actual Star Wars film.
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Post by Cryogenic on Apr 14, 2023 17:47:17 GMT
I've probably proposed this before, and changed my mind, but if the story of Star Wars was a weekly cycle, it would be: Day One: The Phantom Menace Day Two: Attack of the Clones Day Three: Revenge of the Sith/A New Hope Day Four: The Empire Strikes Back Day Five: Return of the Jedi/The Force Awakens Day Six: The Last Jedi Day Seven: The Rise of Skywalker Seven days of non-stop Star Wars? Even the Lord rested on the Seventh Day! Better yet, you end the cycle on a chaotic banger of a movie! Which actually goes to what I like about TROS... Yes, as you said, TROS has a mad energy about it (Cryo) and is a delight to watch (stampid). The year is now 2023 and it's still my single-favourite Disney Star Wars item. It works because it successfully homages the previous movies and it is an especially good blend of the last two (TFA and TLJ). I've never really gotten the complaint that it ignores or invalidates TLJ, either. I mean, yeah, Rose is sidelined, Leia couldn't be developed as much as they planned, and I suppose there could have been a giant battle on Coruscant or something (Trevorrow script), but there are decent continuations and riffs on TLJ, too: e.g.... - Pickled Snokes in a jar (it's an amusing and slightly campy/Jabba's Palace-y way to start). - Kylo dissatisfied in his Supreme Leader role, still chasing down flickers and phantoms (menaces). - Luke vaguely haunting Kylo from afar (Force vision with Rey in the forest) and later revealed to the audience in all his Force Ghost glory. - Rey not feeling worthy of Luke's saber (she tussled with Kylo and broke it in TLJ) and still trying to find out who she is. - Poe still pushing everyone around him and having anxiety about succeeding Leia as leader of the Rebellion. - Finn more adjusted but still quietly yearning to "strike back" against the First Order and lead the charge into battle. - The revelation (gently teased in TFA and TLJ) that the Sith are still out there seeking their ultimate revenge; and the good guys finally turning the tables and taking the fight to them -- becoming the spark that ignites a tremendous, definitive show of resistance against the Final Order on Exegol. And last but not least: - Rey and Kylo's unexplained connection that reaches its apotheosis in this movie and contains any number of neat callbacks to the last two films. Each scene of them together kinda reminds me of Anakin and Padme in ROTS: precious few scenes, but always picturesque and always impactful, driving the story to its inevitable conclusion. Bonus item: - An expanded role for C-3PO. Threepio was slightly the voice of conscience/reason in TLJ and there's something karmic in seeing him leave the Resistance base and elevated to more of a co-starring role with The Big Three (Rey, Finn, and Poe). Plus, when you consider that he was originally assembled by Anakin, you realise, via Threepio, that Anakin is guiding the story and he does help topple the Sith once again! Haters gonna hate. The ST could have been decent if it had a proper foundation. JJ was the worst possible choice to set up a new status quo, because he likes his empty "mystery boxes" and just regurgitates nostalgic elements with little tact. He was much better suited to direct the off-the-wall RotJ-like final installment. RJ fit the bleaker middle chapter, and I think TLJ has aged the best out of the ST. But man, I still can't get over how bland TFA is. It's so self-referential that it takes me out of the movie. It feels like a Star Wars pastiche, not an actual Star Wars film. The ST movies do talk over each other a little bit, but I feel the "Force" of JJ and RJ's personalities when I watch those movies. That's a good thing, I think. The movies are both corporate and personal. Individualised, differentiated. I'm not completely sure if any one of the movies has aged better or worse than any other. They all feel quite present-day in the sense that certain things you may expect to be made concrete are left ambiguous, like the romantic entanglements of both the main and even the supporting characters. It's actually pretty smart of TROS to leave all these little relationship beads suspended in the air: it reflects contemporary friendship/dating dynamics, and I like the fact you can read things more than one way. Now, I did go into the ST hoping/expecting some kind of obvious pair-bonding situation, but that wasn't quite what happened. Sorta helps the trilogy stand out a little more against our beloved PT and OT. If they're classical, the ST is modern bordering on post-modern. Like Kylo, modern kids haven't quite come out the way their parents or grandparents might have envisioned, yet the very existence of complexity/complication isn't the end of hope in the universe. |
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Apr 14, 2023 19:23:20 GMT
I've probably proposed this before, and changed my mind, but if the story of Star Wars was a weekly cycle, it would be: Day One: The Phantom Menace Day Two: Attack of the Clones Day Three: Revenge of the Sith/A New Hope Day Four: The Empire Strikes Back Day Five: Return of the Jedi/The Force Awakens Day Six: The Last Jedi Day Seven: The Rise of Skywalker Seven days of non-stop Star Wars? Even the Lord rested on the Seventh Day! Better yet, you end the cycle on a chaotic banger of a movie! Which actually goes to what I like about TROS... Yes, as you said, TROS has a mad energy about it (Cryo) and is a delight to watch (stampid). The year is now 2023 and it's still my single-favourite Disney Star Wars item. It works because it successfully homages the previous movies and it is an especially good blend of the last two (TFA and TLJ). I've never really gotten the complaint that it ignores or invalidates TLJ, either. I mean, yeah, Rose is sidelined, Leia couldn't be developed as much as they planned, and I suppose there could have been a giant battle on Coruscant or something (Trevorrow script), but there are decent continuations and riffs on TLJ, too: e.g.... - Pickled Snokes in a jar (it's an amusing and slightly campy/Jabba's Palace-y way to start). - Kylo dissatisfied in his Supreme Leader role, still chasing down flickers and phantoms (menaces). - Luke vaguely haunting Kylo from afar (Force vision with Rey in the forest) and later revealed to the audience in all his Force Ghost glory. - Rey not feeling worthy of Luke's saber (she tussled with Kylo and broke it in TLJ) and still trying to find out who she is. - Poe still pushing everyone around him and having anxiety about succeeding Leia as leader of the Rebellion. - Finn more adjusted but still quietly yearning to "strike back" against the First Order and lead the charge into battle. - The revelation (gently teased in TFA and TLJ) that the Sith are still out there seeking their ultimate revenge; and the good guys finally turning the tables and taking the fight to them -- becoming the spark that ignites a tremendous, definitive show of resistance against the Final Order on Exegol. And last but not least: - Rey and Kylo's unexplained connection that reaches its apotheosis in this movie and contains any number of neat callbacks to the last two films. Each scene of them together kinda reminds me of Anakin and Padme in ROTS: precious few scenes, but always picturesque and always impactful, driving the story to its inevitable conclusion. Bonus item: - An expanded role for C-3PO. Threepio was slightly the voice of conscience/reason in TLJ and there's something karmic in seeing him leave the Resistance base and elevated to more of a co-starring role with The Big Three (Rey, Finn, and Poe). Plus, when you consider that he was originally assembled by Anakin, you realise, via Threepio, that Anakin is guiding the story and he does help topple the Sith once again! Haters gonna hate. The ST could have been decent if it had a proper foundation. JJ was the worst possible choice to set up a new status quo, because he likes his empty "mystery boxes" and just regurgitates nostalgic elements with little tact. He was much better suited to direct the off-the-wall RotJ-like final installment. RJ fit the bleaker middle chapter, and I think TLJ has aged the best out of the ST. But man, I still can't get over how bland TFA is. It's so self-referential that it takes me out of the movie. It feels like a Star Wars pastiche, not an actual Star Wars film. The ST movies do talk over each other a little bit, but I feel the "Force" of JJ and RJ's personalities when I watch those movies. That's a good thing, I think. The movies are both corporate and personal. Individualised, differentiated. I'm not completely sure if any one of the movies has aged better or worse than any other. They all feel quite present-day in the sense that certain things you may expect to be made concrete are left ambiguous, like the romantic entanglements of both the main and even the supporting characters. It's actually pretty smart of TROS to leave all these little relationship beads suspended in the air: it reflects contemporary friendship/dating dynamics, and I like the fact you can read things more than one way. Now, I did go into the ST hoping/expecting some kind of obvious pair-bonding situation, but that wasn't quite what happened. Sorta helps the trilogy stand out a little more against our beloved PT and OT. If they're classical, the ST is modern bordering on post-modern. Like Kylo, modern kids haven't quite come out the way their parents or grandparents might have envisioned, yet the very existence of complexity/complication isn't the end of hope in the universe. There's just something about JJ's aesthetic that is squarely late 2000s/early 2010s to me. I didn't like his lens flare tricks from his Star Trek movies. Less so with TRoS, but TFA feels like a product of the 2010s, while TLJ has the most timeless, mythic quality out of the ST, I think. It feels more grand. TRoS also feels grand, with Exegol and Palpatine's Final Order. TFA feels like an extended Star Tours ride. |
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Post by Cryogenic on Apr 14, 2023 19:38:27 GMT
Seven days of non-stop Star Wars? Even the Lord rested on the Seventh Day! Better yet, you end the cycle on a chaotic banger of a movie! Which actually goes to what I like about TROS... Yes, as you said, TROS has a mad energy about it (Cryo) and is a delight to watch (stampid). The year is now 2023 and it's still my single-favourite Disney Star Wars item. It works because it successfully homages the previous movies and it is an especially good blend of the last two (TFA and TLJ). I've never really gotten the complaint that it ignores or invalidates TLJ, either. I mean, yeah, Rose is sidelined, Leia couldn't be developed as much as they planned, and I suppose there could have been a giant battle on Coruscant or something (Trevorrow script), but there are decent continuations and riffs on TLJ, too: e.g.... - Pickled Snokes in a jar (it's an amusing and slightly campy/Jabba's Palace-y way to start). - Kylo dissatisfied in his Supreme Leader role, still chasing down flickers and phantoms (menaces). - Luke vaguely haunting Kylo from afar (Force vision with Rey in the forest) and later revealed to the audience in all his Force Ghost glory. - Rey not feeling worthy of Luke's saber (she tussled with Kylo and broke it in TLJ) and still trying to find out who she is. - Poe still pushing everyone around him and having anxiety about succeeding Leia as leader of the Rebellion. - Finn more adjusted but still quietly yearning to "strike back" against the First Order and lead the charge into battle. - The revelation (gently teased in TFA and TLJ) that the Sith are still out there seeking their ultimate revenge; and the good guys finally turning the tables and taking the fight to them -- becoming the spark that ignites a tremendous, definitive show of resistance against the Final Order on Exegol. And last but not least: - Rey and Kylo's unexplained connection that reaches its apotheosis in this movie and contains any number of neat callbacks to the last two films. Each scene of them together kinda reminds me of Anakin and Padme in ROTS: precious few scenes, but always picturesque and always impactful, driving the story to its inevitable conclusion. Bonus item: - An expanded role for C-3PO. Threepio was slightly the voice of conscience/reason in TLJ and there's something karmic in seeing him leave the Resistance base and elevated to more of a co-starring role with The Big Three (Rey, Finn, and Poe). Plus, when you consider that he was originally assembled by Anakin, you realise, via Threepio, that Anakin is guiding the story and he does help topple the Sith once again! Haters gonna hate. The ST movies do talk over each other a little bit, but I feel the "Force" of JJ and RJ's personalities when I watch those movies. That's a good thing, I think. The movies are both corporate and personal. Individualised, differentiated. I'm not completely sure if any one of the movies has aged better or worse than any other. They all feel quite present-day in the sense that certain things you may expect to be made concrete are left ambiguous, like the romantic entanglements of both the main and even the supporting characters. It's actually pretty smart of TROS to leave all these little relationship beads suspended in the air: it reflects contemporary friendship/dating dynamics, and I like the fact you can read things more than one way. Now, I did go into the ST hoping/expecting some kind of obvious pair-bonding situation, but that wasn't quite what happened. Sorta helps the trilogy stand out a little more against our beloved PT and OT. If they're classical, the ST is modern bordering on post-modern. Like Kylo, modern kids haven't quite come out the way their parents or grandparents might have envisioned, yet the very existence of complexity/complication isn't the end of hope in the universe. There's just something about JJ's aesthetic that is squarely late 2000s/early 2010s to me. I didn't like his lens flare tricks from his Star Trek movies. Less so with TRoS, but TFA feels like a product of the 2010s, while TLJ has the most timeless, mythic quality out of the ST, I think. It feels more grand. TRoS also feels grand, with Exegol and Palpatine's Final Order. TFA feels like an extended Star Tours ride. What I like about TROS is that JJ has to fix the mess that both he and RJ jointly created -- and it's fun seeing him work hard to put out a coherent conclusion. With TFA, by contrast, he was the wrecker, not the healer (of GL's ideas and intentions). The water was only up to JJ's knees on TFA. On TROS, it was at least at chest height. He and RJ generated problems that the original "Mystery Box" guy had to fix and so TROS has an energy and intensity to it that TFA lacks. Yet, when I last saw TFA, I also appreciated the more languid pace of that film, especially by contrast. The ST starts slowly and ends with a bang, much like the preceding trilogies. I used to make the same criticisms of TFA that you do, but there's also a surprising freshness to that movie that's sometimes missed. The saying "fresh as a daisy" works on multiple levels. Also, in retrospect, the three-way connection between Rey, Finn, and Kylo is new for Star Wars, and the actors perform their characters in a way that is indelibly "JJ". The world design of TFA is poor/compressed, but there's an enjoyable energy to the film if you stay fixed on the characters and understand it as JJ's own take on Star Wars, in the "Saga"/"Event Movie" format. |
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Post by stampidhd280pro on Apr 14, 2023 19:46:06 GMT
TROS has a levity that i havent felt since the original ROTJ.
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Post by Cryogenic on Apr 14, 2023 19:53:10 GMT
TROS has a levity that i havent felt since the original ROTJ. Good word. And Rey literally levitates. |
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Apr 15, 2023 8:27:47 GMT
There's just something about JJ's aesthetic that is squarely late 2000s/early 2010s to me. I didn't like his lens flare tricks from his Star Trek movies. Less so with TRoS, but TFA feels like a product of the 2010s, while TLJ has the most timeless, mythic quality out of the ST, I think. It feels more grand. TRoS also feels grand, with Exegol and Palpatine's Final Order. TFA feels like an extended Star Tours ride. What I like about TROS is that JJ has to fix the mess that both he and RJ jointly created -- and it's fun seeing him work hard to put out a coherent conclusion. With TFA, by contrast, he was the wrecker, not the healer (of GL's ideas and intentions). The water was only up to JJ's knees on TFA. On TROS, it was at least at chest height. He and RJ generated problems that the original "Mystery Box" guy had to fix and so TROS has an energy and intensity to it that TFA lacks. Yet, when I last saw TFA, I also appreciated the more languid pace of that film, especially by contrast. The ST starts slowly and ends with a bang, much like the preceding trilogies. I used to make the same criticisms of TFA that you do, but there's also a surprising freshness to that movie that's sometimes missed. The saying "fresh as a daisy" works on multiple levels. Also, in retrospect, the three-way connection between Rey, Finn, and Kylo is new for Star Wars, and the actors perform their characters in a way that is indelibly "JJ". The world design of TFA is poor/compressed, but there's an enjoyable energy to the film if you stay fixed on the characters and understand it as JJ's own take on Star Wars, in the "Saga"/"Event Movie" format. I can even enjoy TFA in a "switch your brain off" kind of way. It's very similar to JJ's Star Trek movies, where peole run and shout a lot. I guess in that sense it's quite Lucas-like, since his favorite line as a director was "faster and more intense." TFA is very much like a modern retelling of ANH. I have some difficulty tolerating the way JJ's characters act sometimes, though. There's a kind of manic energy to them, which is evident in a lot of TFA, and the beginning of TRoS, which is why I initially had trouble watching it. But once the heroes get to the Resistance base, the film settles a little and there aren't as many Abrams-isms as in TFA. TRoS feels closer to Lucas' films in that regard. |
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Post by Samnz on Apr 15, 2023 13:05:09 GMT
The worst part about any of the sequels is the dialogue, to be honest. Takes me out of the movies instantly, because it's just not Star Wars.
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Post by Cryogenic on Apr 15, 2023 21:35:47 GMT
What I like about TROS is that JJ has to fix the mess that both he and RJ jointly created -- and it's fun seeing him work hard to put out a coherent conclusion. With TFA, by contrast, he was the wrecker, not the healer (of GL's ideas and intentions). The water was only up to JJ's knees on TFA. On TROS, it was at least at chest height. He and RJ generated problems that the original "Mystery Box" guy had to fix and so TROS has an energy and intensity to it that TFA lacks. Yet, when I last saw TFA, I also appreciated the more languid pace of that film, especially by contrast. The ST starts slowly and ends with a bang, much like the preceding trilogies. I used to make the same criticisms of TFA that you do, but there's also a surprising freshness to that movie that's sometimes missed. The saying "fresh as a daisy" works on multiple levels. Also, in retrospect, the three-way connection between Rey, Finn, and Kylo is new for Star Wars, and the actors perform their characters in a way that is indelibly "JJ". The world design of TFA is poor/compressed, but there's an enjoyable energy to the film if you stay fixed on the characters and understand it as JJ's own take on Star Wars, in the "Saga"/"Event Movie" format. I can even enjoy TFA in a "switch your brain off" kind of way. It's very similar to JJ's Star Trek movies, where peole run and shout a lot. I guess in that sense it's quite Lucas-like, since his favorite line as a director was "faster and more intense." TFA is very much like a modern retelling of ANH. I have some difficulty tolerating the way JJ's characters act sometimes, though. There's a kind of manic energy to them, which is evident in a lot of TFA, and the beginning of TRoS, which is why I initially had trouble watching it. But once the heroes get to the Resistance base, the film settles a little and there aren't as many Abrams-isms as in TFA. TRoS feels closer to Lucas' films in that regard. TFA has some tedious passages, for sure. I'm not keen on the running and shouting, either. Everything just seems to work better in TROS. The chaotic nature of the character interactions and the hypertensive energy of the film just seem to go together better. It helps that TROS is simply more outlandish than TFA and has a lively comic-book feel (something JJ was maybe trying to bring to TFA, but in a more conservative, low-key way, and I think it falls a little flat). I do appreciate the basic look and tone of TFA, though. I mean, nothing is of the same scale, beauty, or grandeur of the prequels, but TFA at least plays out as a series of well-curated choices. The film is small, almost trivial, yet feels fairly fine-tuned and self-contained. And the cinematic qualities it exudes are quite apparent if you watch it after a few episodes of any of the extant television series. I also like that it still has a certain innocence about it. It genuinely carries on the motif of the previous six, I think: it being, in essence, a simple tale about a boy, a girl, and a galaxy... The worst part about any of the sequels is the dialogue, to be honest. Takes me out of the movies instantly, because it's just not Star Wars. TLJ is probably the worst offender here. There's this weirdly expositional, platitudinal quality that rarely sounds like anything an actual Star Wars character would say. TFA benefits from Lawrence Kasdan, and in TROS there is a new co-writer in the form of Chris Terrio. Kasdan was able to ensure that JJ didn't over-write anything, while Terrio, I think, brought a poised, intellectual edge to the assembly of the story and the screenplay: a good yin to JJ's energetic yang. I can let them off with the dialogue a bit on the sequels because each trilogy was meant to have a different look and feel and evoke a different time period or psychological epoch on Earth. The ST is very in-your-face and modern. Of course, we disappear into Star Wars to (largely) escape modernity. Star Wars is our personal Millennium Falcon to forgotten lands and worlds uncharted. Shoving a bunch of Marvelisms into the characters' mouths saps the movies of that deeper romanticism. However, I can roll with it if I look at the ST as more a series of endnotes. Then it starts to feel a little less trite and smart-mouthed and a little more trippy and fantastical. |
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Post by jppiper on Jul 20, 2023 23:51:51 GMT
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Post by jppiper on Jan 12, 2024 22:34:07 GMT
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Again a formidable post from you packed with much content.
), but:
Once again, a neat little cameo like that -- and no, the first time I watched TROS, I didn't pick up on it -- speaks directly to the network of little trinkets and Easter Eggs strewn throughout TROS. There are, in fact, several unlikely cameos in the film, covered on the following page:
