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Post by stampidhd280pro on Sept 11, 2021 12:18:12 GMT
Cray Palpatine
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Post by Cryogenic on Sept 11, 2021 17:49:22 GMT
Nice. BTW... We're now neck-and-neck with Seeker of the Whills ' Mirroring and Symbolism thread in the GL section. 381 posts each. Highest post count on the entire board. They're also the only threads, by a long way, to have reached 20 pages and to have more than 300 posts. I have the highest post count in this one, of all contributors, with 113 posts. You're the second-highest with 53 posts in here. In Seeker's thread, Seeker himself leads the pack, with 151 posts. I'm second with 126 posts. That's my highest post count in any thread. Seeker's, I think, is the highest of any single contributor in any thread. He's really been irrigating his thread. So it seems I've spent a good deal of my time (around 20% of my post count) discussing TROS here in Disney Land and mirroring and symbolism in the GL section, which sounds about right to me. In tribute to Seeker's thread, I'll throw down a nice connection between TFA and TROS (of which there are assuredly many): Nights of Ren  |
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 4, 2021 14:32:16 GMT
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Post by natalie on Oct 4, 2021 17:53:34 GMT
JJ can be artistic. If he'd had a fresher story in TFA and wrote all three movies it might have been decent. Nah, forget it, he's mediocre at best  |
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 5, 2021 0:56:52 GMT
JJ can be artistic. If he'd had a fresher story in TFA and wrote all three movies it might have been decent. Nah, forget it, he's mediocre at best He's competent. He's not on the level of George Lucas (but then, who is?), and very into his bells and whistles, but he is able to bring a certain can-do energy to a film and turn it into a colourful and exciting experience. And he does well with actors, particularly ensembles (the kids in "Super 8", the three Resistance heroes of Rey, Finn, and Poe in TROS). You can sense his passion for filmmaking in his best films. I also like this interview and a comment left below: I'm not sure I fully agree with that. There are moments where Abrams can come off as sly and disingenuous and as equivocal as any politician. However, he does seem personable, relatively unpretentious, and fairly humble in his own way. Moreover, I like how the commenter understatedly reminds the reader that Abrams is both a writer and a director. Abrams actually deserves some respect for that. He invests in what he's doing and obviously has talents in more than one area. His films might be crowd-pleasers, but there's still an individual and well-intended quality about them. |
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Post by natalie on Oct 5, 2021 2:13:47 GMT
Well we could see the quality of his writing in his ST and SW movies.  His Mission Impossible outing was honestly the worst entry in the franchise (from the first four that I've seen). I didn't see Super 8 which is supposed his best and most original work (although some say it's just a Spielberg imitation). Ironically, his best work is actually on TV, especially the Lost pilot. I feel like many directors that started on television (Ryan Johnson included) they lack the widescreen cinematic eye (if there's such a thing... but you know what I mean... think Lean and other classics that inspired Lucas). As for the ensemble cast, ok, he can find charismatic actors that have chemistry with each other (although I still think Ridley was horrible in the two movies he directed, ironically). He also has a tendency to make them run like crazy (often for no good reason) to convey urgency (or prevent the audience from questioning the lack of logic displayed on screen). I don't care what anyone says, I'll take Lucas's leisurely Tatooine podracing sideplot over supposed exciting Jakku scenes. When it comes to Star Wars, JJ's chief problem is that he grew up as a fan of the OT. It seems he was more interested to play with his childhood heroes and recreating the familiar story than try to continue it in the new direction. But for all his professed love, he doesn't even try to make the directorial style of the ST match that of the OT (something that both Kersch and Marquand understood very well). The camera angles, the helicopter shot, the lense flares... ugh... I mean, I don't consider myself to be very well versed in the technical side of filmmaking (although being raised in the family of the cinephiles I was exposed to a lot more variety than a typical American kid). But even I can feel that it just feels wrong in the way it's put together. Oh, and the lack of memorable action set pieces... come one, take some classic like Lucas did with Ben-Hur and make it fresh and exciting... Or watch a martial arts movie (Ip Man or something) and get inspired. I admit I adore the lightsaber duels, especially in the prequels. And I think a lot of other fans do, too. So, what do they do? They decide to do away with the Jedi altogether. And have Rey win the the very first movie (meaning no tension for their future encounters). Seriously, it's like watching a samurai movie without the samurai. Is this trilogy even made for fans? |
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Post by jppiper on Oct 5, 2021 2:51:18 GMT
natalie it was made for OT Fanatics!
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Post by natalie on Oct 5, 2021 14:15:44 GMT
natalie it was made for OT Fnatics! The weren't too happy with the ST either... especially TLJ. |
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 5, 2021 20:42:57 GMT
First of all, Natalie... Thanks for bringing a bit of new discussion to the thread! I appreciate everyone's take, but it's nice to see a meatier response every once in a while.  Well we could see the quality of his writing in his ST and SW movies. Ha! True. I've never really enjoyed his take on Star Trek, despite his movies having some winning qualities. Good points. Abrams was born to producer parents. I've said before that that's what he feels like: a producer. In some ways, he's a lot like Lucas. The issue is: He doesn't have Lucas' epic visionary qualities or his worldbuilding genius, or the same sense of humour, or Lucas' particular love of cute and eccentric things. So much of what makes Star Wars feel like Star Wars -- to almost everybody on this forum, at least, I'll bet -- is that the series was basically an autobiographical excursion for its maker. Lucas writ his foibles and fascinations large. We were simply lucky enough to enjoy the reading process. Ooh! Podracing vs. mopey Jakku scenes. That's really stacking the deck.  But yes. I still don't see the point in Jakku. It's not that I'm hostile to it on paper, but why make it such a bland copy of Tatooine? And yeah: Lots of running. JJ's rationalisation for TFA was a somewhat crooked and self-serving: "(Sometimes you have to) go backwards to go forwards." Well, yeah: Lucas did that already and they're called the prequels. Unfortunately, Abrams was a bit too reticent to move beyond the "tried and true" structure of Star Wars (meaning: the original film), partly out of nostalgic tendencies, partly out of commercial considerations. What was a perfect marriage (and a nice payday) for Abrams was a disappointing trip to Vegas for many others. Right. Abrams' visual grammar is very different to Lucas'. Lucas, in terms of his camera work, often looks back to the Hollywood masters of the past, where deep focus and wide, theatrical stage-like master shots ruled the day, combined with simple but effective lighting and a strong compositional style. Lucas' camera is precise, exacting, and it doesn't move too much, often remaining in the background, like a distant observer (giving Star Wars that "documentary fantasy" quality it was once renowned for -- even if people couldn't articulate it). When Darth Maul is revealed on Theed, for example, the shots are quite basic, but crisply composed and ultra impactful, and accentuated by a fantastic musical score (surely one of John Williams' best soundtracks). You can probably hear the music in your head and the sound of the blast doors sliding open as you read this. That is cinema. JJ would probably have gone for some close-up on the back of Maul's head and put a light flare there as the doors opened. And when they all light up their laser swords, more flares. Okay, I'm being a bit snarky, but you get the point. The situation is already spectacular enough that there's no need for any fancy camera or editing tricks. There's always been an understated elegance to Lucas' scene construction, but all fanboys wanted to point out -- facetiously, of course -- was how "bland" and "boring" his camera work on the prequels was (isn't), and how all conversation scenes were shot with unvarying "shot/reverse shot" coverage. A strawman. They never noticed or appreciated how classical Lucas' camera is, and how effing rare that is in anything post-1970s -- when old-fashioned roadhouse/blockbuster films completely disappeared and were replaced with an "edgier" brand of action flicks in the 1980s. Lucas had the misfortune of being greeted by an ignorant, philistinical fanbase and a media that fed the monster. As he said in 2002, people take "the old style" (of the dialogue, acting, etc.) in "different ways, depending on their sophistication". Anyway, there is something ironic in Abrams fetishizing the original movie so much, yet missing some of the core attributes that make the original movies (and the prequels) what they are -- like the careful, patient camera work, the speedy (but not too speedy) pacing, and even how Lucas integrated the droids into the storyline. It's funny, really, because Abrams can adapt his style. He's a good mime of Spielberg in "Super 8" (while still flexing his own tendencies), but it seems like he didn't care to emulate Lucas too much in what is meant to be a unified saga. On the other hand, to let him off slightly, he at least showed more restraint on TFA than with, say, Star Trek. Yah! TFA has some pretty dumpy action sequences (I like the action sequences in TROS much more). I think Abrams must have watched a few martial arts and anime flicks before starting work on TROS, however. Rey balletically slicing Ren's TIE Whisper has no equal in TFA. And he does pay decent homage to prequel set pieces in TROS. In TROS, I like most of his choices. In TFA, yeeeah... I guess, being generous, I'm like 50/50. There's just no sizzle to anything in TFA. There are some very adept and enjoyable moments, but the movie, in large part, comes off as half-baked and very paint-by-numbers. Heh. It's pretty ironic -- "Irony, sir" -- that they theoretically made this trilogy "for the fans", but the fans turned on them. Rey defeating Kylo in their first encounter really fell flat for me initially. However, when you retrospectively watch TFA with the "Force Dyad" concept in mind, it works a little better. They're like two "super kids" in the Force: stronger together than apart. And it does make some sense that Palpatine's constant meddling would eventually produce an outcome like Rey and Kylo. To me, bringing back Palpatine was the key to the whole trilogy, but I seem to be in a strict minority there. The near-vanquishing of the Jedi is also disappointing, yet also a tad interesting. However, any further trilogy (if they ever decide to make one more) would need to deal with a restored or near-restored Jedi Order. No more pissing around. I doubt we'll see it, but never say never. |
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Post by Ingram on Oct 5, 2021 21:45:56 GMT
"Somehow, Palpatine returned."
"Dark science. Cloning. Secrets only the Sith knew."
Ingram, meanwhile:
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 5, 2021 22:37:08 GMT
"Somehow, Palpatine returned."
"Dark science. Cloning. Secrets only the Sith knew."
"Alive?"
"Trees that could whisper. Talk to each other. Even move."
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Post by natalie on Oct 6, 2021 2:20:37 GMT
First of all, Natalie... Thanks for bringing a bit of new discussion to the thread! I appreciate everyone's take, but it's nice to see a meatier response every once in a while. I admit I gave up on SW for a while... but occasionally I need to vent, especially when there's some video or comment in my feeds about how the sequels were technically superior but lacked Lucas's vision. Well, hello, how can they be superior in anything (other than modern vfx) if they can't even come up with a decent new story for the trilogy? And then KK and story group showing their incompetence with two directories tearing any semblance of cohesion apart. "They are executed well"... maybe I'm missing something but isn't writing a good screenplay also a part of "executing well"? Well we could see the quality of his writing in his ST and SW movies. Ha! True. I've never really enjoyed his take on Star Trek, despite his movies having some winning qualities.[/quote] I don't really care about Star Trek tbh... but a couple of my friends are devoted trekkies and boy did they have a few curses directed at dear JJ. But at least his movies are in the alternative timeline so can be easily ignored. Well I mentioned podracing because it is often accused of being boring. And ok, maybe it's not the most fast paced adventure out there but it's a charming story within a larger epic and a sequence itself is great in terms of editing and sound effect. Roderick Heath said it much better than I can do: The core sequence, again often criticised but actually a terrific bit of filmmaking, comes when Qui-Gon manipulates events on Tatooine to allow him and his party to escape with young Anakin, which requires letting Anakin enter a dangerous form of competition known as the Pod Race. This sequence provides another evident reference to a movie that stands as distinct precursor to the Star Wars series in both production grandeur and self-mythologising style, William Wyler’s Ben-Hur (1959). Whereas the chariot race in that film was a climax, here the pod race actually inaugurates the essential Star Wars myth. It is the spectacle of something new and amazing coming into the world, and serves at least four purposes in dramatic context. In straight narrative terms, it solves the crisis of how the heroes will get off Tatooine and leads to Anakin joining their team. It’s also an action set-piece that jolts the spluttering film to life. It focuses not just the story, but also the mythic element in the evolving epic tale as Anakin’s great, courageous, already faintly berserk talent reveals itself for the first time. It also revives the panoramic aspect that’s always been crucial to Star Wars, as tiny, enriching details flit by, from a bored Jabba the Hut overseeing the race and flicking bugs off his booth’s ledge to vendors selling alien small fry to hungry viewers whilst the two-headed race caller mouths off with sarcastic glee. This sort of stuff is, to me, always a great part of the pleasure of Lucas’ creation, a universe of recognisable things given a fantastic, slightly mocking but ultimately effusive makeover. Also, given how junky a lot of ’90s action filmmaking looks today, this sequence is especially great in its clean and fluid use of widescreen, and the perfect legibility of the visual grammar. They'll have to do it at some point, to move the story forward. And retcon the sequels since they failed to do it in the first place. Basically have a Jedi Order 2.0 and Republic 2.0 some time in the future and mention how the Skywalkers were instrumental in founding it... problem solved! |
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 6, 2021 13:45:53 GMT
First of all, Natalie... Thanks for bringing a bit of new discussion to the thread! I appreciate everyone's take, but it's nice to see a meatier response every once in a while. I admit I gave up on SW for a while... but occasionally I need to vent, especially when there's some video or comment in my feeds about how the sequels were technically superior but lacked Lucas's vision. Well, hello, how can they be superior in anything (other than modern vfx) if they can't even come up with a decent new story for the trilogy? And then KK and story group showing their incompetence with two directories tearing any semblance of cohesion apart. "They are executed well"... maybe I'm missing something but isn't writing a good screenplay also a part of "executing well"? They're not technically superior in capital letters. They may, however, be the most technically polished or rounded of the trilogies (although, in many ways, I think that honour belongs to TPM). TFA is laughably restrained, TLJ has some nice flourishes, and TROS -- well, the last one, to me, is the only one that feels Lucasian in its technocratic vigour. And even then, it's still nowhere near as envelope-pushing as the OT and PT both were. It is absolutely cool to see how colourful and fully-featured TROS is, however, in comparison to its immediate predecessors. There really is a lush, planet-hopping, sci-fi ambiance to that film not detectable in either TFA or TLJ. It feels Star Wars in ways that its Sequel Trilogy brethren do not. It also manifests that "third act" confidence that is a very agreeable facet of both ROTJ and ROTS. It's a more defined and organic experience. I think KK and the Story Group wanted to open the trilogy up a little bit to attract varied talent to the project. In other words, they wanted to shop each installment to a different filmmaker with different sensibilities and see what they could come up with. It's an odd way to make a trilogy, especially one meant to be adhering to an outline given to them by Lucas himself, but I can see why they did it. They seemed to not want to box a writer-director into some pre-formulated story or storytelling scheme. This was going to be a different trilogy handled a different way. Lucas kinda set the mold there by selling and leaving them to it. He was available for consultation, but he wasn't there overseeing the process on a daily basis. He was off doing other things. The screenplays for the sequels are decent, but not amazing. They lack Lucas' deft ability to annotate, condense, and turn every other line into an enduring koan. And, one might argue, they are a bit too modern and snarky in their basic delivery to feel like they belong as part of the same overarching saga. But still, I do think the movies are well done on their own terms. Alas, they aren't the terms of George Lucas. I almost look at the sequels the same way. They feel like they are occurring in some alternate universe. A pocket dimension or something. Indeed, I think that's the key to how Palpatine returned: He exploited the multidimensional fabric of spacetime and maybe stole a bit of his essence from copies of himself in other universes. One True Emperor to rule them all. Seriously, TROS -- if you pay close attention -- has some freaky shit going on. LOL. What sad, sad people. I mean, the podrace does come close, I think, to outstaying its welcome, but Lucas just about keeps it together. As he said in The Beginning: "(Everyone) will be exhausted after the podrace, they'll be ready to go home." It's meant to be epic and exhausting (notice the double meaning in "exhausted"). It could easily be the climax to a lesser movie. TPM is a very experimental film. But yay, everyone missed it. That's an excellent description. "The spectacle of something new and amazing coming into the world". I love that and it beautifully encapsulates Star Wars as a whole. I like how he locates four different levels the podrace works on: i) Resolution to a story crisis. ii) Visceral demonstration of Anakin's mythic abilities. iii) Panoramic worldbuilding and and an explosion of quirky tableaux. iv) Ideal tour-de-force of fluid widescreen and solid action grammar. Arguably, he misses at least one other: v) Spectacular sound design that is a universe of delight unto itself. His other observation that it "inaugurates the essential Star Wars myth" is also intriguing and slightly cryptic. I think what he's saying, on some level, is that it opens up the landscape of Star Wars to the viewer far beyond a mere blur of canyon walls and desert mesas. Indeed, to continue the metaphor, the podrace is a veritable oasis of heightened mood, atmosphere, texture, and zaniness: an operetta of screaming diagonals, rad thrills, and delectable whimsy. Not only is there something immensely zoetropic and unabashed about the podrace, but it is a self-indulgent celebration of the nakedly digressive, speed-dominated, contraption-loaded essence of Star Wars: a lively pageant that works to baptise the entire screen ritual and beautifully exemplifies the prequel manifesto of "another galaxy, another time". Well, yeah. But I was talking in terms of another trilogy. They will surely tell stories set beyond the Sequel Trilogy, but will they make another trilogy? That seems like a longshot. However, four trilogies of twelve films (or even better: thirteen films) would be a very interesting structure. I doubt we'll see it, but you never know. Star Wars could yet have an interesting future. |
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 9, 2021 21:05:58 GMT
Bizarre TROS DOTF parody! AKA Rey Fights Herself!  Object Fixation:  What you doin' there, Reypio? AKA Throne Rooms:    Kylo Babu:    Helmet Sheen: Triangulating Journeys:  Try A Little Tenderness:  Force Ghosts:  Force Beams AKA The Light Of Skywalker:  Remember them. See them.     Aerial Escape:  Blue-Red:    Red-White:    Blue Rey:  BB-8 Ring Theory: 
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 27, 2021 1:20:45 GMT
Another TROS meditation with screencaps: While TROS is partly about things becoming broken and getting reforged:   It's also about cracks, crevices, and exposed innards: Both Kylo and Rey also consult with a welder guy to either repair their head covering or to get inside someone else's head:   And just as Kylo's helmet is repaired with obvious fracture lines highlighted in red, so do Threepio's eyes turn red:   Artoo ultimately restores Threepio's memory, but with a copy that means Threepio has no recollection of his "mission with Mistress Rey", just as Rey heals Kylo and he consciously rejects evil by tossing away his lightsaber after embracing a memory of Han:  "You want to put what in my head? Under no circum..."  Like old times... Some TFA/TROS "Abrams trilogy" links: A bewildering vision, involving a dark figure with a strange red lightsaber, leads to Rey being ejected from a cave-like side passage (an abrupt "re-birth"):     Just a cool bit of cinematography (and a touch Indy-esque) -- Rey's destiny was always waiting for her, whether in a chest in a dank cellar, or in a hidden chamber, out of focus, at the edge of frame:   A key male character firmly gripping a totemic object after Rey's vision (and which appears to have triggered the vision):   Light and dark:   Unity of light and dark:  Little TPM-TROS connection:   Rey and Kylo getting muddy and angry in a forest:   Impressive displays of Force (chaotic movement and anchored stillness):   That last one is probably a good valedictory metaphor for the Sequel Trilogy: Star Wars at a kind of dyadic character zenith -- messy, compromised, yet satisfyingly brought to a firm and assured conclusion with striking moments of operatic ballast. But, of course: Your focus determines your reality. |
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Post by Ingram on Nov 4, 2021 23:10:11 GMT
Ingram Damn. Caught in the act for once. I just issued a revised version of my post with newly-discovered quotes from Mark Hamill. I wouldn't have bothered changing my post if I'd seen your reply. I'll read your reply now and reply again accordingly. Hopefully, you'll catch the following annotation before you do. If it matters.
While for larger holistic reasons I have little use for the ST overall, on its own terms and relative to this discussion, I don't necessarily mind that they played it 'truck-stop-girl' loose with ductile story structuring that could allow for a third act dramatic stake/conflict/foe at their choosing, from a list of options, in the final stretch of development. I just wish they hadn't opted for pandering to only the most risk-averse whim of a hypothetical Star Wars fan as determined by their graph charts... figuratively speaking; Abrams alone is practically a marketing machine wearing a human filmmaker skin. More Sith? Okay, but even that is still rife with possibilities beyond a Clive Barker version of Palpatine.
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Post by Cryogenic on Nov 5, 2021 0:06:47 GMT
EDIT: This lengthy discussion between Ingram and I continues from an exchange which began in another thread.If Luke and Leia's setup in Episode V was not strictly familial, it was on its own a plainly conceptual hook for the audience -- "No, there is another" -- later followed by a scene that visually pairs the two in dramatic statement and was directly written in as that which was necessary for Luke's rescue. Even the romantic declaration between Han and Leia had been sealed before closing credits, thereby taking Luke off the table. Only on top of all that are there interpretive nuggets such as a closeup of Leia shooting Vader a haunting look of intuition in the carbon freeze chamber or her and Luke standing together in the end (in their jammies) like, well, two kids waiting longingly for their parents to come home. Even if the specifics of them being siblings was not decided upon until writing treatments for the next film, infused in Episode V were outlined propositions that, regardless of how one might interpret them, dramatically serviced the film itself towards a chapter conclusion. They are internally interpretive ideas nonetheless externally functional, lyrical, powerful, to the present theater that is The Empire Strikes Back. Yeah, I agree that the end of TESB kind of "seals the deal" -- they're de facto siblings at that point of the story (or as I said before: two sides of the same coin). One can even chart a kind of maturation across the film, from the skittish innocence of Han, Luke, and Leia's interactions on Hoth, in the first act, to their final configuration (and the accompanying tone of the film) in the last: Han is now a lump of viscous agony for Jabba's delight and Luke and Leia are left changed and more serious/reflective in kind, as they sadly watch the Falcon ("Han's ship" as Rey prosaically reminds us in TROS) fly away, their earlier camaraderie dissolved in the face of distress, replaced with adult concern for the future (yet still tinged with hope). ROTJ builds organically on that foundation and makes it all click into place. A true fairy-tale ending. I'm not comparing TROS directly to what ROTJ does. That, I think, would be a tad facile. All I'm saying is that there are a few relevant storytelling pieces in the mix, even if they're just vague and relatively abstract hints. But those hints deepen a touch if you are aware that Lucas originally intended to withhold Palpatine until Episode IX. Rightly or wrongly, it's history repeating -- and completing -- itself some three-and-a-half decades later.
Yes, it's a very effective moment in the film -- although Lucas only thought of that the day they were actually filming it:
Of course, it's a key aspect in how the man makes movies -- develop an outline, write a few versions of the script, and stress about the details (and don't be afraid to create entirely new developments) once the filming is underway, or not even until it is concluded (i.e., once you're deep into the editing stage).
Still, it's kind of a patch-over. Not a bad one, by any means. But for some people, the series was beginning to strain credulity, and it became more obvious, more tangible, that Lucas was re-arranging the blocks of his world as he went. Alan Dean Foster was similarly flummoxed:
The story of the Star Wars Saga is clearly one that "grew in the telling", to echo the words of J.R.R. Tolkien about his own mythic tale. Ideas led to motifs that led to themes (and vice versa). Certain choices naturally suggested themselves as Lucas went along and they clearly felt right.
Why does everything have to be the same? Star Wars isn't the same since Lucas sold it -- that much is obvious. The lines that should really be compared are the following: "Somehow, I've always known."
"Somehow, Palpatine returned."Same vague syntactical handwavium. Same Force, even. Just different miracles. Except, one is a joyful revelation (or should be), while the other risks undoing everything the characters fought for -- unless Rey steps up and lays the past to rest after confronting it head-on. Yes, it's a simple motif, but it is given some nice elaboration in TROS, allowing the film to function as a fitting coda for all the preceding movies. It's a tribute performance to all the narrative choices and thematic complexity of the entire Saga. JJ's "American Trilogy". All your named alternatives for the last-act big boss still have last-act big-boss-ness about them -- which is why, I think, they went with Palpatine. Why concoct some new villain or bland chimera of old when you can have the MacDaddy himself? Indeed, Lucas kept pulling new villains out of his ass in the PT, but Palpatine lay behind all of it. Making the ST as much a re-do of the PT as the OT (on this basic thematic point, at least). Anyway, Palpatine coming back is really a red herring, compared with the way he comes back (i.e., through his hidden Sith Eternal cult). This story development, in my opinion, is very cool and suggests many possibilities for future storytelling. I also like it merely for being a "discrete stage" thing that is suggestive or just-there in and of itself. It's like: "Okay, damn. Where did this come from?" In the words of General Parnadee expressing tense admiration for Kylo's reformed (new-old) mask: "I like it." Kinda like the way the Imperial navy just appears at the end of ROTS from fucking nothing. Not a bash! I also think that's cool. It's like there are unseen things happening that you really have to ponder. Secret societies. Secret bonds. Secret marriages. Secret deliveries. Half of the human experience is lived in the dark. It's actually (in my opinion) very Star Wars. I also think it's appropriate that something slightly extreme happens in the final episode. It's a special plead, but this carries its own significance to me. Episode IX is the only one to carry an "X" numeral. Like this is the one you were never "meant" to see. Oh, look. The Force is doing crazy things. E xegol. Duh! Easter Eggs and improbable happenings everywhere. Imagine a fruit machine going haywire. Big cashout. I dunno. There's just something big and different and joyous about IX. It's in love with its own craziness and I love it unreservedly for that. Ingram Damn. Caught in the act for once. I just issued a revised version of my post with newly-discovered quotes from Mark Hamill. I wouldn't have bothered changing my post if I'd seen your reply. I'll read your reply now and reply again accordingly. Hopefully, you'll catch the following annotation before you do. If it matters.
While for larger holistic reasons I have little use for the ST overall, on its own terms and relative to this discussion, I don't necessarily mind that they played it 'truck-stop-girl' loose with ductile story structuring that could allow for a third act dramatic stake/conflict/foe at their choosing, from a list of options, in the final stretch of development. I just wish they hadn't opted for pandering to only the most risk-averse whim of a hypothetical Star Wars fan as determined by their graph charts... figuratively speaking; Abrams alone is practically a marketing machine wearing a human filmmaker skin. More Sith? Okay, but even that is still rife with possibilities beyond a Clive Barker version of Palpatine.
Right. I like the juicy platter that TROS offers. I'm somewhat off on a tangent, perhaps, liking this film as I do -- but I do. I like it as a riff on the previous one-two punch of Abrams and Johnson, and more broadly, the previous six before that. Three styles (Lucas, Abrams, Johnson) in one. The whole "Skywalker Saga", that is. TROS is obviously a very Abrams-y movie -- "No doubts there." Ductile? How about duct tape? Pipes? The exposed piping of the Second Death Star signals what the ST is going to do or become: A more intricate (fusion of PT and OT), exploded-out monstrosity of the earlier thing known as Star Wars. And okay, if there is a certain ductility there, it might be because Lucas delivered such a rousing conclusion in the first place. He hadn't even told the backstory, but the climax had already been locked in. That crazy George. Abrams is definitely a re-brander and a shrewd man of marketing. But amidst all his Barnum and Bailey savvy and repurposing, he is able to offer a viewer rare delights on his own terms. I mean, TROS has some extremely eye-catching and thoughtful cinematography within. And it's obvious that Abrams enjoys the directing process, especially where working with his principal cast members goes. The crazy "what if this?" energy to TROS is his earlier flirtations with lore stretching and canonical outrageousness taken to apotheosis. In that way, it is a sublimely entertaining populist artwork. Corporately garbage-mashed, perhaps, but there's still a strange and fascinating "inner life" process to grok within.
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Post by Cryogenic on Nov 5, 2021 1:49:48 GMT
Another TROS meditation with screencaps: While TROS is partly about things becoming broken and getting reforged: I found an even better meditation here:   The Rise Of Skywalker is a really pulpy thing. Bringing the PT and OT together and creating a tight welding seal. |
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Post by Ingram on Nov 5, 2021 11:09:54 GMT
Why does everything have to be the same? Star Wars isn't the same since Lucas sold it -- that much is obvious.
The lines that should really be compared are the following:
"Somehow, I've always known."
"Somehow, Palpatine returned."
Same vague syntactical handwavium. Same Force, even. Just different miracles. Except, one is a joyful revelation (or should be), while the other risks undoing undoes everything the characters fought for -- unless Rey steps up and lays the past to rest after confronting it head-on. Yes, it's a simple motif, but it is given some nice elaboration in TROS, allowing the film to function as a fitting coda for all the preceding movies. It's a tribute performance to all the narrative choices and thematic complexity of the entire Saga. JJ's "American Trilogy". Fixed. As reluctant as I am to pedestal what by now seems a rote criticism against the film, in this case I've really no other option than to stand with the group. Whatever quixotic potential there is to the Emperor's resurrection, such value isn't nearly enough to balance the scale equal to the dramatic arc that achieved his initial official (also fixed) demise, nor the Machiavellian roadwork that illustrated his rise to began with. That's six films...kicked to the curb. And for what, a gas? Temerity? I suppose, then, this is where the stodgy ol' structuralist in me presides. Even taking for granted such a coda between the two lines above, eh, it seems pretty isolated, lucky at best, rather than a meaningfully moving part of a greater whole. Leia's Force-dairokkan in response to Luke's revelation to me always seemed to be a semi-logical consequence of her sharing in adventures with him up to that point, the whole thing having a kind of balming effect that, at most, is convenient only to prevent the scene from getting bogged down in what would otherwise demand more realistic denial/handwringing upon learning such a truth. Line No. 2? Shit. I mean, that pointer scene altogether rings so loudly for me as nothing other than the movie handing over to audiences a 'get-outta-jail-free' card. I wax nothing from it, but perhaps that's only evidence of my speed. All your named alternatives for the last-act big boss still have last-act big-boss-ness about them -- which is why, I think, they went with Palpatine. Why concoct some new villain or bland chimera of old when you can have the MacDaddy himself? Indeed, Lucas kept pulling new villains out of his ass in the PT, but Palpatine lay behind all of it. Making the ST as much a re-do of the PT as the OT (on this basic thematic point, at least). Honestly, I would've opted for Nega-Rey: Calling his unbeknownst bluff, Rey eventually accepts Kylo's hand and aligns herself committedly to the evil path of ultimate Sith power that, in turn, only then reveals to Kylo his own insecurities with the Dark Side. Yada-yada-yada... he has to begrudgingly team up with Finn (and Poe and Chewie and the droids and Rose and even ghost Luke) on a 2nd or 3rd act mission to save Rey without destroying her or prevent her from upending some plot-point crucial to the First Order's defeat, by saving her, without destroying her ...yada-yada-yada. Cue reiteration of the two-against-one lightsaber duel from Episode VII where now Finn and Kylo find themselves in dire straits against a meta-powered Rey... whom they both love. And, hey, if you still wanna have someone electro-zapping all the spaceships, now it could be Rey. Or, Nega-Rey is that which splits from regular Rey as a Sith-phantom entity with glowing red eyes (one of her infinite reflections from the Ahch-To cave gone haywire) who now faces off against the whole team of good guys including a begrudgingly aligned Kylo, tempting both he and Finn with evil erotic seductions, while in her ethereal form likewise able to combat ghost Luke ...also while electro-zapping all the spaceships!
Please excuse me while I fist-pump the fuck outta this idea. Anyway, Palpatine coming back is really a red herring, compared with the way he comes back (i.e., through his hidden Sith Eternal cult). This story development, in my opinion, is very cool and suggests many possibilities for future storytelling. I also like it merely for being a "discrete stage" thing that is suggestive or just-there in and of itself. It's like: "Okay, damn. Where did this come from?" In the words of General Parnadee expressing tense admiration for Kylo's reformed (new-old) mask: "I like it." Kinda like the way the Imperial navy just appears at the end of ROTS from fucking nothing. Not a bash! I also think that's cool. It's like there are unseen things happening that you really have to ponder. Secret societies. Secret bonds. Secret marriages. Secret deliveries. Half of the human experience is lived in the dark. It's actually (in my opinion) very Star Wars. I also think it's appropriate that something slightly extreme happens in the final episode. It's a special plead, but this carries its own significance to me. Episode IX is the only one to carry an "X" numeral. Like this is the one you were never "meant" to see. Oh, look. The Force is doing crazy things. E xegol. Duh! Easter Eggs and improbable happenings everywhere. Imagine a fruit machine going haywire. Big cashout. I dunno. There's just something big and different and joyous about IX. It's in love with its own craziness and I love it unreservedly for that. Different speeds, once more. The Imperial Navy at the end of Episode III is simply an un-indulged sub-narrative rather than a conceptually nonsensical one; non-clone personnel at the helm of new model Star Destroyers simply being the next logical, infrastructural step following that which was organized (and shown) for the Clone Wars. A hidden Sith cult complemented with a planetary sized fleet "chilling" incognito while the First Order fucks around the galaxy is... also. an idea. thing.
It's actually not the in-universe logic that irks me, per se. It's that I have a real problem with carte blanche plotting indifferent to the meter of drama. The First Order is already winning at the start of Episode IX, for starters, so what then is the Final Order if not an exercise in gargantuanism? Why should I care about a surprise Sith cult if by such story etiquette another can take its place, and another and another? Again, taking this bonehead ST on its own terms, there is something at least theoretically cool to the idea of a phantasmagorical sect-army coiled and ready to strike like a zealous viper an unsuspecting Resistance. That is, had said viper been a) slowly unveiled during a mystery subplot via Resistance nobodies (ahem, Finn and Rose), and b) sprung upon skeptical Resistance leaders during a moment of triumph—all of which one movie prior, at its climax. Just a rough example but at least something that sets up an account and earns interest. The Emperor's 4D chess, slight-of-hand prestige as it stands fundamentally shocks nobody (pun intended). Our heroes just seem to roll with it as the same enemy-absolute they're already struggling up against while such is afforded to we the audiences as but an elaborate info-dump. It's just a thing that is, at the start of the movie.
Still, I'm going down a rabbit hole here. It's a digression. Going back to when you said... Why does everything have to be the same? Star Wars isn't the same since Lucas sold it -- that much is obvious. Tell it to this guy.  Posit: Can one transition from Star Wars primarily as a work of storytelling discipline wherein allowances are made for various curiosities that wallpaper the storied universe or flow from drama already in motion to Star Wars primarily as a spooktacular fun-house carnival ride that stimulates with franchise heraldry now fashioned to the extreme as OMG! attractions that pop out from behind corners. I can't, because that's what actual carnival rides are for— The Rise of Skywalker might've made one hell of a kickass followup to Star Tours (throw in a CGI dancing Captain EO ...take my goddamn money). But with anyone who can roll with this transition, arguing the merits of one over the other is kinda pointless. I only really maintain that a correlation between the methods of Episode VI and Episode IX warrants precisely what you highlight above, that being a change-up in standards & sophistications. AODPR's claim presupposes just the opposite by uniforming into some kind of generic merit separate storytelling choices based on what really only amounts to cursory denominators. His is a double fallacy, in fact. He claims that if Episode VI pulled its shit for today's hyper-critical fandom audiences then the backlash would've likewise been by order of magnitude comparable to the shade lobbed at Episode IX. Okay. But even if that were true, what insight does it actually argue in either the understanding of one film and/or when defending the other? His is ultimately a non-point passed off as a "gotcha". I hate those.
Hopefully, you'll catch the following annotation before you do. If it matters.
While for larger holistic reasons I have little use for the ST overall, on its own terms and relative to this discussion, I don't necessarily mind that they played it 'truck-stop-girl' loose with ductile story structuring that could allow for a third act dramatic stake/conflict/foe at their choosing, from a list of options, in the final stretch of development. I just wish they hadn't opted for pandering to only the most risk-averse whim of a hypothetical Star Wars fan as determined by their graph charts... figuratively speaking; Abrams alone is practically a marketing machine wearing a human filmmaker skin. More Sith? Okay, but even that is still rife with possibilities beyond a Clive Barker version of Palpatine.
Right. I like the juicy platter that TROS offers. I'm somewhat off on a tangent, perhaps, liking this film as I do -- but I do. I like it as a riff on the previous one-two punch of Abrams and Johnson, and more broadly, the previous six before that. Three styles (Lucas, Abrams, Johnson) in one. The whole "Skywalker Saga", that is. TROS is obviously a very Abrams-y movie -- "No doubts there." Ductile? How about duct tape? Pipes? The exposed piping of the Second Death Star signals what the ST is going to do or become: A more intricate (fusion of PT and OT), exploded-out monstrosity of the earlier thing known as Star Wars. And okay, if there is a certain ductility there, it might be because Lucas delivered such a rousing conclusion in the first place. He hadn't even told the backstory, but the climax had already been locked in. That crazy George. Abrams is definitely a re-brander and a shrewd man of marketing. But amidst all his Barnum and Bailey savvy and repurposing, he is able to offer a viewer rare delights on his own terms. I mean, TROS has some extremely eye-catching and thoughtful cinematography within. And it's obvious that Abrams enjoys the directing process, especially where working with his principal cast members goes. The crazy "what if this?" energy to TROS is his earlier flirtations with lore stretching and canonical outrageousness taken to apotheosis. In that way, it is a sublimely entertaining populist artwork. Corporately garbage-mashed, perhaps, but there's still a strange and fascinating "inner life" process to grok within. I thought it was boring.
^This^ bargain-bin asshole response has been brought to you by: Ingram.
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Post by Cryogenic on Nov 5, 2021 23:44:08 GMT
Why does everything have to be the same? Star Wars isn't the same since Lucas sold it -- that much is obvious.
The lines that should really be compared are the following:
"Somehow, I've always known."
"Somehow, Palpatine returned."
Same vague syntactical handwavium. Same Force, even. Just different miracles. Except, one is a joyful revelation (or should be), while the other risks undoing undoes everything the characters fought for -- unless Rey steps up and lays the past to rest after confronting it head-on. Yes, it's a simple motif, but it is given some nice elaboration in TROS, allowing the film to function as a fitting coda for all the preceding movies. It's a tribute performance to all the narrative choices and thematic complexity of the entire Saga. JJ's "American Trilogy". Fixed. Ah! I guess I asked for that one.  Hey, man: Star Wars appeals to the stodgy ol' structuralist in us all. I might disagree that the six films are kicked to the curb, but I certainly understand the sentiment. To me, TROS is more of a buttoning-up of the whole thing: a funhouse celebration of the sublime grandiosity of the former six and a wacky lyrical ode to Sheev Palpatine himself. I mean, the whole thing is basically anointed with Palpatine's gloriously meta boast to Kylo and the viewer: "The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be... unnatural." Okay, it's an obvious emollient, hardly enough to cauterise a third-degree, flesh-necrotising burn, but isn't that also Palpatine: a phantasm made flesh (I love how the crawl refers to him as THE PHANTOM EMPEROR), desperately clinging to life, still believing he has it in the bag and will yet be reinstated as the ONE TRUE EMPEROR? I just love how the pulpy undercarriage of Star Wars was finally embraced at the end of the ST. In fact, in that moment, TROS gave me a tingle I'd not experienced in my little fan brain since the days of ROTS, when Palpatine (again: who else?) told Anakin he could feel his anger, and that it gave him FOCUS... "makes you stronger!" I think I was grinning like an idiot when I heard those words being uttered on my second viewing of ROTS in 2005, and probably grinning like an idiot when I saw Ian in a play in 2008 (from, like, three feet away), so TROS was a bit of a homecoming event for me. It's true that I might otherwise be pretty jaded about the whole thing. So if I myself am coming across as unnatural here, forgive me. A humble little monument to the vaingloriousness of Ian-As-Palpatine in a Disney movie -- and a "sequel" installment, at that -- was incredibly surprising, but very welcome in my humble fanboy world. Well, I do love the scene in ROTJ. But then, I pretty much love every scene in ROTJ. However, even then, and as you've waxed eloquently before, the Lucas-Marquand-Kasdan combo worked out very well, leading to a series of remarkably solid "confrontational" scenes between Luke and his mentors, Luke and Leia, and of course: Luke, Vader, and the Emperor. There's a gentle maturity to the Luke-Leia conversation that lends the film -- nay: the whole Saga -- a wonderful poise and believable fairy-tale gravitas. It is very well-played by the actors and the scene has exactly the right tone and tempo. Post-prequel, the fact it also feels like a bit of a throwback to the "fireplace" conversation between Anakin and Padme in AOTC makes it even better; even with jealous Han coming in at the end as Luke gracefully exits in silhouette (seriously: who the fuck hates this scene?). Anyway... Look, I can't convince you that the TROS scene/line is the equal of what ROTJ offers -- I can't even convince myself of that. I can, however, in my case, appreciate the TROS scene on its own terms. The line itself is a bit flat-footed, although I think the more significant thing occurring in-situ is the reaction shot of Rey, followed by the cut to Leia. That part of the scene is wonderfully concise -- there's a good deal that you get the palpable sense of characters having largely concealed from, or avoided discussing with, one another. The fact that Merry Beaumont quickly silences objections with his rumination that the Sith could have achieved such a dark miracle using a variety of methods has the benefit of brevity, as well as indicating that there's no need for anyone to get into a big argument about it: it's a fait accompli on Palpatine's part (and, I guess, the screenwriters), so they had better just accept it and deal with it. I kinda like that as a small contrast with the Jedi endlessly pondering the Sith and how to proceed in the PT. (Of course, I also like the ponderous quality of the PT, so this isn't an either/or thing for me.) In a way, it's a little flex on the film's part that in this movie, things move fast: i.e., lightspeed skipping. Even Poe's little aside, in the aforementioned skipping scene, of "Last jump, maybe forever!" is a little lampshaded dig at all the logic jumps in the movie. An alternative name for TROS, and the ST as a whole, is STAR WARS FOREVER. Yes, TROS gets a little post-cinematic, and that's fine with me. Not gonna lie: That does sound pretty freakin' awesome. Did you see this recently-released artwork of "Dark Rey" from concept artist Adam Brockbank? Fits well with your spitballing above: http://instagr.am/p/CTZcrncDBnw "Different speeds". At the risk of abusing the metaphor: lightspeed skipping. Yes, the navy at the end of ROTS is exactly that: the next logical, infrastructural step. And perhaps there's a political commentary there in and of itself: y'know, once you've incinerated democracy and instituted fascist rule, some new bureaucratic slime is bound to emerge. But I also love how the navy is just suddenly there. Like the Gungans' hidden army, followed by the hidden clone army. In a way, TROS is doffing its cap to the prequels again. But this is J.J. Abrams, so logic is put through a blender and everything is exaggerated by an order of magnitude, just because it looks cool. However, given that there are also odd lightning flashes and the crust of Exegol is apparently atop an exotic core in a strange region of space (a reprise of Naboo and all its plasma energy and its watery planet core), maybe the big army comes from another realm or something. There are many allusions to this sort of spacetime-compromising prestidigitation in TROS. Just as Pryde rather deliberately says that the Sith Eternal has " conjured legions of Star Destroyers", so in the directly-preceding scene are Kylo's troops (the Knights of Ren) casually referred to by a stormtrooper as ghouls -- again, added to the crawl telling us that "The dead speak!" and Palpatine being described as THE PHANTOM EMPEROR, there seems to be a theme (or, indeed, an entire continent of subtext) here. I really don't know what's happening in TROS, but I like it. Star Wars collapsing down to a singularity and getting seriously weird. The whole movie could even be Kylo's dream. It dares to be different and leans into new territory for the franchise. The massive Final Order fleet is either an excuse to blow up planets on a whim (all the Final Order Star Destroyers come equipped with superlasers), and thus ensure the corporeal supremacy of the Sith Empire, or it maybe functions as a portal to some other mode of existence. Perhaps you have to blow up enough planets or cow people into conformity first and the fleet is the means of achieving that. After all... What was Palpatine's end-goal in the Lucas Saga? What was he ultimately trying to do? Become a Force God and more powerful than a Kardashev Omega-level civilisation? Just as the midi-chlorians focus the Force in a lifeform's body and a kyber crystal focuses the blade in a lightsaber, maybe there is some technocratic equivalent, like thousands of planet-killing spaceships, arranged just-so, that enables powerful Force users to amp up their influence on space and time; as much as, in the words of Pryde, "ten-thousandfold". Look, I'm getting a bit cosmic, but that is what the ST was meant to be about, right? The Cosmic Force. The Sith are all about manipulating things on a grand scale. So while Abrams' love of gargantuanism may seem faintly ridiculous, it curiously fits the direction Palpatine was heading in in the earlier six movies. Why should you care? Well, I think the name THE FINAL ORDER (not shouting: I just love to capitalise stuff like the crawl) is maybe a clue that this is Palpatine's last gambit, his final shot at immortality. So while he might still exist in some formless manner even after Rey's destruction of his body and his Sith Eternal cult, he is pushed so far into the background that the galaxy has a new start and can finally breathe some clean mountain air. Palpatine's surprise is meant to be tied into Kylo beginning to feel the Dark Side inside of him around Anakin's age in Episode I. Rey is also born at this time. Thus, while never made explicit, all three characters are operating with a vague awareness that they tie into some greater scheme. This scheme is prompted by Palpatine's machinations, but even Palpatine is surprised by Rey and Kylo becoming a dyad in the Force. He knew they had a powerful link, and it seems he was trying to manipulate this, but such is the strength of their Force bond that their energy/connection literally ends up exploding (in) Palpatine's face. Another resonance there with the previous trilogies. Palpatine is thrice maimed with lightning (by his own hand) and thrice denied ultimate power (three being a very primal pattern in Star Wars). That, to me, is what provides a certain guarantee that Palpatine is truly finished as an harassing force at the end of the ST. There is even a marked descent in each case. In ROTS, Palpatine deforms himself many miles up on a window ledge. In ROTJ, he is chucked down a reactor shaft. In TROS, he is obliterated within the bowels of an old temple. The Tragedy Of Sheev Palpatine The Lightning-Obsessed. Payback for draining and gaming the Life Force of so many. I don't know. I like to think there's still some semblance of storytelling discipline underneath, and some of this variation you're seeing (which I certainly don't deny) is due to different filmmakers with different sensibilities. Unfortunately, it takes a person of some genius to build out an entire fantasy world. Other people merely indulge themselves in the sandbox and don't have the same skillset, or the same concern that everything need obey a certain worldbuilding or storytelling logic. I take your point about this feeling more like a "Star Tours" attraction thing now. Yes, it kinda does, and I'm not sure how I feel about that. Maybe I just enjoy the brio of TROS as its own thing.
Completely fair. I also hate that kind of Twitter scolding and debased logic often exhibited in tweets -- or, in another word, asshattery. It's really a form of whataboutism. It reminds me of some people pointing out on TFN that "George used desert planets in the prequels and even included two back-to-back in Episode II". Like that somehow justifies Jakku and the blatant lo-fi imagination of TFA (this was in the 2015-2016 period) Q.E.D. Really fucking dumb. One actually has to investigate differences (and alleged similarities) in order to form a more nuanced and well-rounded opinion on something. Twitter does not help in this regard.
Boo-hiss!!!
You're entitled to that opinion.
Your Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man: Cryogenic.
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His Mission Impossible outing was honestly the worst entry in the franchise (from the first four that I've seen). I didn't see Super 8 which is supposed his best and most original work (although some say it's just a Spielberg imitation). Ironically, his best work is actually on TV, especially the Lost pilot. I feel like many directors that started on television (Ryan Johnson included) they lack the widescreen cinematic eye (if there's such a thing... but you know what I mean... think Lean and other classics that inspired Lucas). 
But yes. I still don't see the point in Jakku. It's not that I'm hostile to it on paper, but why make it such a bland copy of Tatooine? And yeah: Lots of running.
