Good timing. I've just been reading the TROS novelisation by Rae Carson -- a good, zippy read that fills in one or two details, and has some nice descriptive flourish in a few places (although, like the movie, it cracks along and is over in a shot). Furthermore, I've been meaning to add more posts to this thread for a while.
Let's see here:
First of all, the short clip used in the video, with that Japanese translator rattling off a question regarding Lucas' sequel treatments to Kathleen Kennedy, is nothing new.
However, it could certainly be said (without being declared crazy) that Kennedy is lying by omission. As the question is being read out, JJ's face is also a total picture.
I guess I'll get more into that in a moment.
Well, I'm not Cryo, but I don't think he's seen the Mortis arc, or hardly any of Clone Wars. Also, this woman is clearly insane.
I haven't seen TCW as of this writing, no. But I'm aware of the Mortis arc, and I think a case could be made that some Lucas/Filoni elements made their way into the final cut of TROS. For instance, someone has observed that
the Sith Citadel on Exegol is reminiscent of "the bottom dark side half of Mortis" (i.e., the Mortis monolith):
https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsspeculation/comments/erl54x/the_structure_on_exogol_is_the_bottom_dark_side/
This tweet has more compelling image comparisons:
NOV 30TH EDIT: Tweet has been reconstructed because the Twitter account holder turned their account to private.Original link:
twitter.com ... AaronQPrescott/status/1212802083608506369
(first slash changed to three dots to stop the message board software changing it into an embedded link)
Reconstructed tweet:
Aaron Quinton 🦋🔥
@aaronqprescott
Comparison: Mortis and Exegol #TheCloneWars and #TheRiseOfSkywalker Who was the one who was really behind all this? #TheSon #SithEternal #SithEmperor #DarkSideIncarnate #Palpatine #AllTheSith
Date: 6:25 PM Jan 2, 2020
(i.e., the
blue limb of light upon approach -- and blue is a very dominant colour in TROS)
starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Mortis_monolith/LegendsNotice that the symbol for the Sith Eternal, which is shown close-up in the opening scene, is also reminiscent of the Mortis monolith:
Then there is the design of the Sith wayfinder, which many fans have noted is similar to a Holocron, the latter of which "canonically" first appeared in TCW:
starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Sith_wayfinderstarwars.fandom.com/wiki/HolocronFrom the "behind the scenes" sub-section:
Note that TROS also has a lot in common with the aforementioned "Dark Empire" comic series, as elaborated upon by some fans on Reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsspeculation/comments/eonik5/from_dark_empire_in_1988_it_really_is_interesting/
https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsspeculation/comments/ebx6as/so_tros_is_basically_a_retelling_of_dark_empire/
https://www.reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/comments/ms8aik/tros_is_literally_a_dark_empire_ripoff/
So straight away, with these visual resonances tracing out Kylo's journey to Exegol, into Palpatine's ancient Sith lair, the film establishes a link with the "expanded" side of the SW saga -- to both the retired "Legends" side of the EU and to the modern PT/TCW/Rebels continuity.
Mortis also appears in Colin Trevorrow and Derek Connolly's first draft script for "Duel Of The Fates" (Rey has a vision of the planet and it's where she and Kylo meet and climactically duel one another), which was leaked online a couple of months after TROS came out last year:
www.reddit.com/r/Screenwriting/comments/f5tb40/colin_trevorrows_star_wars_ep_9_duel_of_the_fates/Interestingly, in their script, Rey has a vision of two thrones: a dark throne and a light throne. In TROS, Rey envisions Kylo and herself sharing the Sith throne on Exegol (she confesses this to Finn after "killing" Chewie before they go to Kijimi), and Kylo later propositions her on his Star Destroyer that they can join forces, kill Palpatine, and take the throne on Exegol for themselves (an echo also of Vader's pledge to Luke on Cloud City and Anakin suggesting he can overthrow Palpatine and rule the galaxy with Padme on Mustafar).
Note some other interesting story features in TROS to do with Rey and Exegol:
When Rey is laying flat on the ground, seemingly spent by Palpatine's energy drain (where he steals the life force of Rey and Kylo -- another echo of the DOTF script, where Kylo himself develops such a power after training under Tor Valum on Remnicore, and Rey inverts that power in TROS by healing the snake on Pasaana and later Kylo on Kef Bir), she gazes up into the heavens and calls upon the voices of the Jedi who have come before (something she is trying to do in her first scene in the jungle, and later is told by Luke: "A thousand generations live in you now").
Well, the realm she accesses in the novel, where she hears these voices guiding her and urging her to "rise", is described in the novel as
"the place between places", which echoes
"the space between spaces" mentioned in the heavily Lucas-authored Indy IV movie at the climax, and also the
"world between worlds" concept in the Dave Filoni-helmed Rebels:
starwars.fandom.com/wiki/World_Between_WorldsFrom the "behind the scenes" sub-section:
I could get a lot more bizarre here, but the "Wood between the Worlds" influence is fascinating, not least because of a prior thematic meditation of Pyrogenic's, involving the following image:
To put it simply, here is Hux (a kind of reheated Tarkin/Obi-Wan) trapped in a "dark forest", or selva oscura:
www.amazon.co.uk/Oscura-William-Basinski-Lawrence-English/dp/B07GVXD65BFrom the product description:
Which seems to happen to a few of the Sequel Trilogy characters, especially Luke on Ahch-To, bringing a deeper meaning to the whole thing.
Rey and Kylo first meet in a forest (in daylight, but Rey tries hiding in a dark spot from Kylo), they subsequently duel in a forest on Starkiller Base, and Kylo harbours a deep wound from that encounter, when he berates Rey in TLJ for having accusing eyes "from the forest" when she called him a "monster".
John Muir also ruminated that "The clearest way into the Universe is through a forest wilderness". Something that Kylo seems to have unconsciously taken him up on in the opening of TROS:
This exact shot, where Kylo is catching his breath and his bearings after a bout of elegant slaughter (and notably alone save some scant stormtroopers in the background), is visually referenced toward the end of the movie (just after Kylo has selflessly saved Rey and faded away and basically gone to Force heaven):
Incidentally, a design case study on ILM's website, focusing mostly on Exegol, describes the above image as a "thick and oily cloud forest":
web.archive.org/web/20201215175247/https://www.ilm.com/visual_development/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-developing-a-heart-of-darkness/Rey finds her own way into the universe by projecting her consciousness beyond Palpatine's tree of Force Lightning:
Which itself, when initially sent into the atmosphere by Palpatine, is an inversion of Yoda sending lightning down on the Jedi Tree on Ahch-To, which a few other fans have noticed:
www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/i3i0k8/yoda_sends_a_bolt_of_lightning_downward_to_spark/
Palpatine's Force Lightning tree -- basically a stolen form of Rey and Kylo's energy (in the novel, despite the ugliness of Palpatine and his arch villainy, Rey finds the lightning pattern beautiful) -- could also be referencing Mortis after nightfall:
starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Mortis
Which again could, in some small way, explain the emphasis on blue (including the title) in TROS.
Note also that the Mortis imagery above is referenced in the bottom half of the teaser poster for TROS:
www.starwars.com/news/d23-expo-2019-star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-poster-revealed
Another nifty detail I like is what the Jedi voices say to Rey -- or one in particular:
Qui-Gon: "Every Jedi who ever lived lives in you."An epigrammatic reassurance that is very evocative of some of Qui-Gon's first words in the saga:
Qui-Gon: "But not at the expense of the moment. Be mindful of the Living Force, my young padawan."Contrast this with Palpatine (obviously Qui-Gon's complementary father figure for Anakin), who is shown strangely resurrected at the start of TROS, but obviously clinging on for dear life. Rey, on the other hand, puts all her faith in the Force and the life essence of her forebears (in order to presumably vanquish Palpatine for good). And, of course, one of the voices she hears is Anakin's, telling her to "bring back the balance" as he did.
All these details, in my opinion, serve to underline the notion that TROS is a mild adaptation of ideas Lucas was toying with in the PT and in TCW, and that he may have wished to see depicted in the Sequel Trilogy. On some level, they clearly went their own way with the films, and we know that Lucas felt he had little choice but to step away. However, that doesn't rule out some of his concepts being in play, especially as JJ and KK had a chat with him just before embarking on Episode IX together -- and even before then, in the leaked script from Colin Trevorrow's version of Episode IX, you can see TCW being referenced with Mortis being the place where Rey and Kylo mythically converge in the climax.
But what about Kennedy's words in the video clip and the analysis offered by the video's host/narrator?
Let's delve a little into that now:
Okay, Kennedy is not being completely straight with the truth here. Lucas may not have written any scripts for the sequel films, but he did provide treatments, and the first treatment (for Episode VII) was being fleshed out into a script by Michael Arndt, under the supervision of Lawrence Kasdan.
Furthermore, the ideas that Lucas had? Many of them may well have been intended for other projects, or since syphoned off into other projects, but Lucas has since claimed midi-chlorians were definitely a part of his intended sequel trilogy that he handed over to Kathleen Kennedy and Bob Iger.
On this point, it is relatively easy for a fan to be mad at Kennedy for downplaying the machinations of her and Bob Iger, because she simply isn't being honest when she dismisses the question so flippantly. It would have been better if she at least acknowledged that a script conforming more closely to Lucas sequel trilogy treatments was in development, as this was clearly broadcast to the public, and Michael Arndt shares a writing credit on TFA with Abrams and Kasdan. Her dishonesty here (along with Abrams' very irritated facial expressions) naturally makes an informed viewer wonder what else she is concealing.
Sorry, it's a little hard to take someone saying the name "Doomcock" seriously. But hey, I'm trying...
It is possible he was involved at the writing and directing levels, but these currently remain rumours. Even if he did get involved and was later overridden, Lucas had to know by this stage that his input wasn't guaranteed to remain in stone, and that he was just one creative among many trying to bring a vision to life that hopefully would meet with corporate approval. I mean, it's Star Wars under Disney, not Star Wars under George Lucas, anymore. Some people still can't seem to understand the difference (and most never understood or fully respected the former, anyway).
Yes, some of them seem a bit amused, nervous, or irritated, especially JJ. Daisy seems to be relishing whatever the response is about to be as the question is being posed. I don't see much reaction from John or Oscar, however. They are sitting there in a fairly relaxed fashion.
Okay, there is a lengthy Reddit leak on Saltier Than Crait posted on January 2nd 2020 that she seems to be referencing (or referencing someone else referencing), where it is alleged that TROS was hacked down severely in editing, and some of it was reshot and changed without JJ's approval, to such an extent that he allegedly fumed, "Why don’t you just put 'directed and written by Lucasfilm' then?"
https://www.reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/comments/eisnd8/heres_what_ive_been_told_from_a_source_that/
The narrator herself references this outburst a little further into her video.
But before that, she rounds on Kennedy with the following (repeating herself from above):
Apparently, they really
were shooting very late into the production process -- which any reasonable person would admit, for a film of this complexity, qualifies as last-minute reshoots. In this way, there is obviously
some truth to the leaks/rumours; but pinning down precisely what happened, or why, is difficult.
It is quite likely that Palpatine was brought into the picture quite late (at least in his corporeal form), based on several telling details:
i) Daisy Ridley has publicly said that her character's lineage wasn't decided on when cameras rolled on Episode IX (her being a clone or ancestor of Obi-Wan seems to have been the original intent):
www.indiewire.com/2020/09/daisy-ridley-rey-kenobi-jj-abrams-retconned-1234585188/ii) The vague but unmistakeable outline of Palpatine on the teaser poster was actually achieved not with a production photograph or reference shot of the actor's face, but with a toy (and what seems to be in a younger guise):
www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsLeaks/comments/cv9a2l/that_new_tros_poster_used_hot_toys_figure_of/iii) The novelisation was delayed until March 2020, and its big lure was that it is an "Expanded Edition" of the film (this term is printed on the front cover in capital letters):
https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarscanon/comments/e01zgv/star_wars_the_rise_of_skywalker_expanded_edition/
iv) There is nothing about Palpatine or Exegol in the "Art" book for TROS, and this book was also delayed until March 2020:
www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/fspl13/the_art_of_rise_of_skywalker_no_exegolfinal_battle/v) A smaller detail that could lend credence to the idea that Kennedy wanted more Reylo is, even in the delayed novelisation, despite a lot of description for Rey and Kylo that matches well with the finished film, the scene with Rey training on Ajan Kloss is slightly different. When she gets angry against the remote and begins slicing trees with her lightsaber, there is no mention of Kylo provoking her into anger. Nor is there any mention of Kylo inducing the vision she has a moment later. The intercut scene of him "interfering" with Rey's training (remotely -- haha) and touching the Vader mask (as if trying to confirm Palpatine's taunt in the opening sequence) does not occur.
In the past, I've said critical things about JJ, despite liking some of his stuff ("Super 8", and yes, TROS). But I don't think a filmmaker of his stature could or should be accused of being a pussy. A hack, perhaps, if that's how you see things. He seems to be a people-pleaser. But the idea that he had no backbone to fight back is basically a non-sequitur that reveals a total ignorance/misunderstanding of the way tentpole movies are made. You could say the same thing about Lucas using her logic. It would be equally ridiculous. And, again, nobody knows exactly what went down. And sometimes, more detail doesn't lead to greater clarity, but simply more confusion (i.e., everyone has a POV and POVs also shift in time). Despite Kennedy's evasion of the question, it's too simplistic to tar creatives as bad or weak, particularly when they're working in a corporate environment where their decisions are constrained and can be contractually overruled. This was exactly the situation a young George Lucas fought hard to get out of.
Another silly assertion. Whatever you think of the man and his decisions, he clearly saw enormous potential in acquiring Star Wars and was pleased that JJ took few risks and delivered in TFA the "quintessential Star Wars experience". If that represents a spiritual slaying of Star Wars, then fair enough -- perhaps the man is a murderer. But how do you even define what Star Wars is? It clearly changed under Lucas with every picture, and there is a world of difference (despite formal similarities) between ANH and ROTS, the "start" and the "end" of the Lucas Saga. Obviously, it was going to change once again under Disney, and there was no escaping that. Not even for Lucas. If she is pissed that Iger gave the chop to Lucas' treatments, she should just say that and avoid the broad brush statements. It would still be failing to deal with the complexities of corporate culture, however.
Or maybe it was quietly explained to her that George Lucas was no longer running the show, and Kennedy was answerable to the dictates of Bob Iger and the expectations of Disney shareholders? She couldn't do whatever she wanted. Lucasfilm is a very big company with specific needs, and it was rapidly absorbed by a much larger corporation. Additionally, Lucas left the scene pretty quickly to pursue various retirement projects. Without his direct oversight or legal authority, she was basically on her own. She had lots of people to satisfy (including many fans who voiced their dislike of the prequels), making an undiluted pursuit of Lucas' kooky (if fascinating) sequel trilogy ideas next to impossible. We'd probably all have liked it, however, if they had done more -- her, Bob Iger, Alan Horn, and J.J. Abrams -- to honour Lucas' treatments and ideas, especially with Episode VII. After all, as the saying goes: Start as you mean to go on.
She then rants some more about Kennedy and plays the clip for a third time. I'm not interested in rebutting any of that, as it's basically a diatribe that simply dredges back up what she already said. However, she then moves on to one final nugget of intriguing information:
This leak, posted to Reddit on December 19th 2019, by an account holder called Lucasfilm_Insider, is apparently the seed of her rant above (or the other people she is quoting):
https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsspeculation/comments/ecromq/what_i_know_about_tros_production/
Pairing that up with the other leak from January 2nd 2020:
https://www.reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/comments/eisnd8/heres_what_ive_been_told_from_a_source_that/
(Partial quotes here):
Note that, in addition to the above, Abrams basically went AWOL relatively fast from the PR circuit around the released Episode IX.
In the following video recorded at Star Wars: Galaxy's Edge, the responses given by various members of the cast with Abrams in attendance have been interpreted to be, well... interesting:
You gotta love Anthony Daniels' apathetic: "How does it end?"
Then there was Abrams' hasty public apology, where he seemed to imply the film was a disappointment and that he had failed in his capacity as a filmmaker:
variety.com/2020/tv/news/j-j-abrams-katie-mcgrath-talk-representation-in-star-wars-and-at-bad-robot-1203487201/His last words there seem to be a shot against the bow of Lucasfilm, and maybe a dig at Kathleen Kennedy and Bob Iger. Either way, something clearly happened with TROS that made its realisation a troubled endeavour.
In a way, however, that is true of most movies, and ones that go smoothly tend not to be the most interesting of movies to return to. The "legend" of a film can be enhanced greatly by a tumultuous and difficult production, with clashing egos, differing visions, technical compromises, time crunches, etc.
Also, knowing all of the above can deepen one's engagement with the manifest film text. So the Son of Mortis was the one pulling tricks on Kylo and the galaxy at large? Huh. Interesting. What is removed from the the "top" layer of text becomes subtext. Clearly, Mortis was intended to play a role in the story of Episode IX ever since Colin Trevorrow worked on it. They never completely jettisoned it. They simply remixed and cyphered it. Mortis (or the "dark throne" aspect) became Exegol. The Son of Mortis was cyphered into Palpatine or vice versa. Did you see how Palpatine was practically shapeshifting when sucking Rey and Kylo's powers into himself? Or what about Dark Rey? Threepio becoming "possessed"? The major meta vibes when Poe declares in the cavern on Pasaana he doesn't like bones? Or, as detailed at the start of this post, how the approach to Exegol has visual similarities with the approach to the Mortis monolith? It's all sedimented into the film text. It must be part of the reason I like TROS the best of the sequel movies; and why, personally speaking, I consider it the most New Age Star Wars-y of the trio. Perception is nine tenths of the law.
