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Post by jppiper on Oct 12, 2020 1:38:44 GMT
I Think we can all agree that the machete order is dumb. leaving out TPM is stupid moronic and idiotic without it there's no explanation for how Palpatine Became Chancellor Anakin's relationships with Obi-Wan Padme and his Mother Qui-Gon Jinn Darth Maul Podracing What The Prophecy of The Chosen One is Duel of the Fates. now the idea of watching the films ala The Godfather is a good one but not at the expense of Episode I. now i would like to hear your thoughts on the machete order i know what i said but i would Love to hear your Opinions thank you and May the Force be with You!
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Post by emperorferus on Oct 13, 2020 3:36:57 GMT
I see the appeal of the machete order for sure, but I would not leave out TPM. To remedy the large gap between TESB and ROTJ with three whole movies in between, I might put TPM either before ANH or between ANH and TESB, but it can also go after TESB.
I agree that TPM contains necessary information despite the time displacement- like Jpiper said, the Chosen One Prophecy and Shmi's character. Not to mention the nature of Anakin and Padme knowing one another beforehand.
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Oct 27, 2020 0:55:50 GMT
Episode I, as far as I can see, has seen a noticeable rise in its reception among fans since its 20th anniversary, which was May of last year. Episode II hasn't had this kind of boost, though with the will of the Force, maybe it shall in 2022. I don't see anyone advocating for leaving TPM out, and why would they when they can complain endlessly about the romance or the acting in AOTC instead?
For first time SW viewers, I'll always advocate watching in release order (IV-VI then I-III). On subsequent viewers, sure, you can mix it up with IV-V-I-II-III-VI or plain simply I-VI. Actually, pretty much all my viewings in recent years have been I-VI, usually as one film every night over a week. I'd find marathon challenging as I tend to do a lot of processing at the end of the movies, and I like to take notes too.
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Post by tonyg on Oct 31, 2020 23:24:30 GMT
For first time viewers: 1-6 is better. (Special editions of the OT as they match better with the prequels). Is not only because Lucas consider this order as the best. Is the story as it should be.
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Post by stampidhd280pro on May 27, 2021 18:12:19 GMT
Attack of the Clones The Phantom Menace Revenge of the Sith A New Hope The Empire Strikes Back Return of the Jedi
AOTC serves as a better introduction to Abakin's story. It gives us more of a mystery when it comes to Sidious. It's a better example of what the next 5 movies are like. And somehow having the Clone Wars bookend the movies makes the prequels feel more like a trilogy.
I know and appreciate TPM as the proper preface to the whole story, but somehow trying it this way felt so right, even deliberate almost.
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Post by Cryogenic on May 27, 2021 18:39:48 GMT
Nice title! And ah, yes, the perennial "viewing order" conundrum. I actually had some weird insight a few years ago that the "best" viewing order does, indeed, start with AOTC, but only after watching the OT. So: A New Hope The Empire Strikes Back Return Of The Jedi Attack Of The Clones The Phantom Menace Revenge Of The Sith Or I think I might have had ROTS after AOTC, with TPM coming last: the "crown jewel" of the entire saga: But whatever floats yer ferry!
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Post by smittysgelato on May 27, 2021 19:16:45 GMT
It can also be a great deal of fun to watch them in the Ring Theory order:
1. The Phantom Menace 2. Return of the Jedi
3. Attack of the Clones 4. The Empire Strikes Back
5. Revenge of the Sith 6. A New Hope
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Post by Ingram on May 19, 2022 10:26:44 GMT
My proposal: 1. A New Hope 2. The Empire Strikes Back - 1. The Phantom Menace 2. Attack of the Clones 3. Revenge of the Sith -
3. Return of the Jedi It recently dawned on me, the above experiment. By the end of Episode V the lore is upended with psychological turmoil. One can pretty much accept the back-storied premises up to that point without any real necessity for their own dramatization, but then forms are shattered and certain truths go haywire. In this new fashion, you simply regard the saga as a sole trilogy, being the Original; the Prequels then become wholly synthesized as an appendix whose unconventional placement acts as a kind of prolonged intermission between the main Luke/Vader-Rebels/Empire storyline—between the first two acts and the third final. Our adventures with Luke & Friends carry on stably for a stretch before being cast over a precipice into a void of uncertainty, only then for the saga to double-back on itself with context-enriching annals of a past epoch weird and tragic ...and then back to the final stage of current events, for the closing showdown. Little nuances in Episode VI -- moments between Luke, Yoda, Ben, Leia, Vader and the Emperor, especially -- would be afforded a unique lilt, methinks. For reasons I can't quite articulate but only sense, the saga per this order is beholden to Episode VI and moreover encapsulated by the singular following image:
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Post by stampidhd280pro on May 19, 2022 12:17:19 GMT
That's a common variation on Machete Order, Ingram. Those kinds of viewing orders don't work for me because it messes with the symmetry.
Last night I started a "Ring Theory" viewing oder that starts in the middle, with the prequels in Pyro's retro order, alternating with the OT.
Revenge of the Sith A New Hope
Attack of the Clones The Empire Strikes Back
The Phantom Menace Return of the Jedi
With this order, the main character and the stakes are laid out in the first episode. I'm hoping that by having ROTS as the introduction, it adds weight to AOTC and TPM, and by shuffling in the prequels in reverse order, it keeps the story focused on Anakin, and it prevents the OT from ending so quickly. I haven't really put it to the test yet, but just imagining ROTS as the introduction was a fresh experience in itself. I'll update with thoughts, as they come along.
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Post by starwarshexalogy on May 19, 2022 21:41:38 GMT
For me the fact that the movies are numbered makes the best viewing order pretty much a no-brainer.
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Post by stampidhd280pro on May 19, 2022 23:21:18 GMT
For me the fact that the movies are numbered makes the best viewing order pretty much a no-brainer. If you can sit through TPM and AOTC back-to-back. I love them just as much as the rest, if not more, but NOTHING HAPPENS until ROTS. I'm almost done with my 342516 marathon. It's perfect.
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Post by Cryogenic on May 19, 2022 23:48:07 GMT
My proposal: 1. A New Hope 2. The Empire Strikes Back - 1. The Phantom Menace 2. Attack of the Clones 3. Revenge of the Sith -
3. Return of the Jedi It recently dawned on me, the above experiment. By the end of Episode V the lore is upended with psychological turmoil. One can pretty much accept the back-storied premises up to that point without any real necessity for their own dramatization, but then forms are shattered and certain truths go haywire. In this new fashion, you simply regard the saga as a sole trilogy, being the Original; the Prequels then become wholly synthesized as an appendix whose unconventional placement acts as a kind of prolonged intermission between the main Luke/Vader-Rebels/Empire storyline—between the first two acts and the third final. That's an awesome order and accompanying explanation, Ingram. It's actually as if Luke glimpses the prequels -- or the poetic nidus of the PT: AOTC -- when meditating on Dagobah: "I saw a city in the clouds!" Corsucant, opening scene. Followed by a citizen in the clouds: Anakin having his nightmare and then meditating on Naboo. In fact, Luke gets close to glimpsing the core truths of the Saga on Dagobah, given he also has that vision of Vader in the cave. He kind of inadvertently peels back the grey rain curtain of this world to reveal the shining, bizarre universe beyond. And given that Luke's mind is then shattered by Vader's revelation on Cloud City, we're primed to go backwards, before inevitably zooming forwards -- our hearts and minds reforged -- for the final reckoning. Ewok soup. I think, in part, why that image resonates is the bold, chiaroscuro-like interplay between light and dark. It is the darkness being overwhelmed by the light; or the darkness given light, heading for its final trial before dissolution. The strange figure -- which, of course, turns out to be Luke ("lightness" himself, but clothed in dark robes) -- is also reminiscent of Shmi watching Anakin saunter away with Qui-Gon from afar, Maul appearing from behind the blast doors (horizontal to this figure's vertical-door reveal), and the silky outlines of the Kaminoans. Beyond all of that, ROTJ's opening sequence pivots on the slow, sequential reveal of each hero, vital to the OT and to Star Wars as an operatic whole: Artoo, Threepio, Chewie, Han, Leia, Lando, and finally: Luke Skywalker, the ascetic, now-solemn redeemer of the Saga's main character. It's basically a reprise and an upgrade at once. We are reminded of these characters' strong bonds to one another (even Lando's betrayal of Han and Leia, and the adverse reaction of the latter on Cloud City, is swiftly brushed over in favour of emphasising their collective nobility), and at the same time, made to feel that Star Wars is now a little more grown-up, a little more grounded and centered, despite the fabulous grotesqueries of Jabba's Palace. There's nothing repetitive or reductive here. It all adds. And yes, after the apocalyptic gloom of ROTS, ROTJ kicks things off in a somewhat jauntier fashion -- as if flipping a reset back to Episode III's opening shenanigans. Both opening sequences are, of course, overtures/appetisers. But we are hopefully wiser here that something of wonderful gravity will ineluctably emerge from all the playful noise. That this is just a part of Star Wars' rhythmic, digressive nature. Tangentiality and a kind of wacky surreality being part and parcel of the mechanism, part of the lustrous appeal of this beautiful black swan of cinema. Here, in fact, when Luke enters the narrative in such a striking, reverential fashion, a firm sense of reckoning -- of shit about to go down -- is very apparent. In fact, it's a little like when Yoda suddenly enters the hangar on Geonosis: Just, initially, the hint of a strange form -- friend? foe? alien? monster? -- approaching. Lucasian way-point imagery, and the pious-yet-playful celebration of a threshold being crossed, at its very best. That's a common variation on Machete Order, Ingram. Those kinds of viewing orders don't work for me because it messes with the symmetry. Last night I started a "Ring Theory" viewing oder that starts in the middle, with the prequels in Pyro's retro order, alternating with the OT. Revenge of the Sith A New Hope
Attack of the Clones The Empire Strikes Back
The Phantom Menace Return of the JediWith this order, the main character and the stakes are laid out in the first episode. I'm hoping that by having ROTS as the introduction, it adds weight to AOTC and TPM, and by shuffling in the prequels in reverse order, it keeps the story focused on Anakin, and it prevents the OT from ending so quickly. I haven't really put it to the test yet, but just imagining ROTS as the introduction was a fresh experience in itself. I'll update with thoughts, as they come along. That strikes me as a cool order: a fantastic fusion of, as you stated, Mike Klimo's "Ring Theory" and Pyro's "Retro Order". I think putting the bookends -- TPM and ROTJ -- together might produce the most fruit. I'm not just thinking of big things like natives battling an empire, or big victory parades, but even resonant lines like Anakin complaining, "Mom, you say the biggest problem in this universe is nobody helps each other", followed by Anakin overthrowing the Emperor and fulfilling his dream of freeing the slaves. Or, I dunno, Jar Jar telling the Jedi he forgot that he was banished, just as Luke tells Vader that Anakin Skywalker is his true name and he's "only forgotten". It kinda feels like the start and the end were made to go together. What we call the beginning is often the end. And to make an end is to make a beginning.-- T.S. Eliot
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Post by stampidhd280pro on May 20, 2022 0:01:41 GMT
You know, it's funny. Lucas actually did play around with timeline jumping in More American Graffiti. You spend a lot if the movie knowing certain characters are going to die, because their friends talk about it in other sections of the movie set in the future (the years go '65, '66, '67, '68 back to' 65, and so on). You end up caring even more about those characters who die because they're already gone during half the movie. Watching the prequels in retro order does something similar, and with 342516 (gotta think of a catchy name for it. Maybe just steal the Ring Theory label) Padme is the only main character who doesn't survive the first episode. Because of this viewing order, I'm seeing the other two prequels as Padme's movies, and appreciating her perspective and motivations. Oddly enough, this order has highlighted character flaws in young Padme and Obi-Wan. They can both be real brats in TPM. Somehow the growth of the characters is more apparent in reverse.
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Post by Cryogenic on May 20, 2022 0:30:23 GMT
Because of this viewing order, I'm seeing the other two prequels as Padme's movies, and appreciating her perspective and motivations. Oddly enough, this order has highlighted character flaws in young Padme and Obi-Wan. They can both be real brats in TPM. Somehow the growth of the characters is more apparent in reverse. I think it was a French review that someone translated many years ago on TFN, where it said TPM, in a welcome contrast to the previous SW movies, was the first Star Wars film to put the focus more on mellow, guiding adults (Qui-Gon, Shmi), rather than bickering, impulsive kids (Anakin, Padme, Obi-Wan). Somewhat true.
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Post by stampidhd280pro on May 20, 2022 4:02:29 GMT
Started the cycle again. Watching Ep III. When palpatine tells vader "because they did not trust you, you are the only jedi with no knowledge of this plot" and vader doesn't say "that's right" or "that's true", he says "i agree" and that's how you know you've drank the koolaid, politically. It's all about politics, Episode III.
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Post by Cryogenic on May 20, 2022 4:27:36 GMT
Started the cycle again. Watching Ep III. When palpatine tells vader "because they did not trust you, you are the only jedi with no knowledge of this plot" and vader doesn't say "that's right" or "that's true", he says "i agree" and that's how you know you've drank the koolaid, politically. It's all about politics, Episode III. Uh-huh. There's some good dialogue there. Although Anakin actually says, "I agree", a little after that, when Palpatine tells him: "When the Jedi learn what has transpired here, they will kill us along with all the senators." It's a creepy line because it implies that Palpatine has tremendous influence over the many senators (remember Dooku's confession to Obi-Wan in AOTC), and that, if the Jedi eradicate him, all the senators die as well -- a bit like in TROS, when Rey kills Palpatine, all the Sith followers in the stands wail and are killed along with their ONE TRUE EMPEROR. Of course, Anakin doesn't acknowledge Palpatine's statement head-on, but swerves to something less extreme: "I agree. The Jedi's next move will be against the Senate." But Palpatine already declared himself to be the Senate when Mace came to arrest him. I wonder if that line was in the original version when Anakin was already at Palpatine's side? Either way, Anakin doesn't seem to want to admit that Palpatine is now an extremist, in looks, behaviour, voice, outlook, and overall political vision. So it's like this psychological dodge Anakin makes to keep his head above the dark waters of the worst that Palpatine is plotting and asking of him. Anakin never really admits that he's working for a monster. Even when Obi-Wan calls Palpatine "evil" on Mustafar, Anakin immediately counters by throwing the charge on the Jedi instead. Of course, it's possible for both sides to be flawed/wrong, and I think Anakin knows this. He just has dreams of righting the wrongs by overthrowing Palpatine and eradicating the Jedi as well. Problem solved. All evil gone. Yeah, in many ways, the plot of ROTS is all about people lying to themselves; which is really the plot of the PT in microcosm.
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Post by stampidhd280pro on May 20, 2022 4:31:06 GMT
The other thing that hit me in the face is the line "i don't care if the council knows we're married". In other words, everybody knew. And everybody knew Palpatine was shady, and maybe even knew what he was, but as yoda said "to a dark line of thought this will carry us." Or in the language of today, "that's highly inconvenient, therefore it's disinformation." in other words, "the world isn't run by satanic pedophile vampires, that's just our greatest fear, and i'm glad i can't confirm it, for now. "
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Post by stampidhd280pro on May 20, 2022 4:33:02 GMT
Started the cycle again. Watching Ep III. When palpatine tells vader "because they did not trust you, you are the only jedi with no knowledge of this plot" and vader doesn't say "that's right" or "that's true", he says "i agree" and that's how you know you've drank the koolaid, politically. It's all about politics, Episode III. Uh-huh. There's some good dialogue there. Although Anakin actually says, "I agree", a little after that, when Palpatine tells him: "When the Jedi learn what has transpired here, they will kill us along with all the senators." It's a creepy line because it implies that Palpatine has tremendous influence over the many senators (remember Dooku's confession to Obi-Wan in AOTC), and that, if the Jedi eradicate him, all the senators die as well -- a bit like in TROS, when Rey kills Palpatine, all the Sith followers in the stands wail and are killed along with their ONE TRUE EMPEROR. Of course, Anakin doesn't acknowledge Palpatine's statement head-on, but swerves to something less extreme: "I agree. The Jedi's next move will be against the Senate." But Palpatine already declared himself to be the Senate when Mace came to arrest him. I wonder if that line was in the original version when Anakin was already at Palpatine's side? Either way, Anakin doesn't seem to want to admit that Palpatine is now an extremist, in looks, behaviour, voice, outlook, and overall political vision. So it's like this psychological dodge Anakin makes to keep his head above the dark waters of the worst that Palpatine is plotting and asking of him. Anakin never really admits that he's working for a monster. Even when Obi-Wan calls Palpatine "evil" on Mustafar, Anakin immediately counters by throwing the charge on the Jedi instead. Of course, it's possible for both sides to be flawed/wrong, and I think Anakin knows this. He just has dreams of righting the wrongs by overthrowing Palpatine and eradicating the Jedi as well. Problem solved. All evil gone. Yeah, in many ways, the plot of ROTS is all about people lying to themselves; which is really the plot of the PT in microcosm. Bingo!
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Post by stampidhd280pro on May 20, 2022 5:06:22 GMT
"I do not fear the Dark Side, as you do." Is another zinger. In other words, you're a Sithphobe.
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Post by Cryogenic on May 20, 2022 15:23:41 GMT
Started the cycle again. Watching Ep III. When palpatine tells vader "because they did not trust you, you are the only jedi with no knowledge of this plot" and vader doesn't say "that's right" or "that's true", he says "i agree" and that's how you know you've drank the koolaid, politically. It's all about politics, Episode III. Uh-huh. There's some good dialogue there. Although Anakin actually says, "I agree", a little after that, when Palpatine tells him: "When the Jedi learn what has transpired here, they will kill us along with all the senators." It's a creepy line because it implies that Palpatine has tremendous influence over the many senators (remember Dooku's confession to Obi-Wan in AOTC), and that, if the Jedi eradicate him, all the senators die as well -- a bit like in TROS, when Rey kills Palpatine, all the Sith followers in the stands wail and are killed along with their ONE TRUE EMPEROR. Of course, Anakin doesn't acknowledge Palpatine's statement head-on, but swerves to something less extreme: "I agree. The Jedi's next move will be against the Senate." But Palpatine already declared himself to be the Senate when Mace came to arrest him. I wonder if that line was in the original version when Anakin was already at Palpatine's side? Either way, Anakin doesn't seem to want to admit that Palpatine is now an extremist, in looks, behaviour, voice, outlook, and overall political vision. So it's like this psychological dodge Anakin makes to keep his head above the dark waters of the worst that Palpatine is plotting and asking of him. I just need to correct the two of us here: Palpatine's first line: "Because the Council did not trust you, my young apprentice, I believe you are the only Jedi with no knowledge of this plot."Palpatine's next line: "When the Jedi learn what has transpired here, they will kill us along with all the senators."Anakin's line: "I agree. The Council's next move will be against the Senate."Anakin swings it back round from "the Jedi" to "the Council". He doesn't want to acknowledge Palpatine's more extreme statement. He obviously cannot countenance the idea that the Jedi are rapacious murderers. Which is as I said before. However, it's very sneaky on Palpatine's part to switch from "the Council" to "the Jedi" -- Palpatine knows Anakin has tremendous misgivings and grievances toward the Jedi Council, but not necessarily to the Jedi as a whole. This is as you said: The film is very political in its orientation. Talk of councils vs. people/organisations. Palpatine fuels Anakin's dissatisfaction with an aspect of the Jedi hierarchy, until Anakin gets so mad on power he no longer cares to draw a distinction. Another interesting facet is the way Palpatine refers to Anakin, in the top line, as " the only Jedi with no knowledge of this plot". Yet he also refers to him as his "young apprentice" in the same line. So which is it? Is Anakin now a Sith or still a Jedi? Obviously, it's a bit of both, as symbolised earlier in the film when Anakin holds a blue and a red saber at Dooku's throat. The film constantly plays with this tension. When Anakin enters the Jedi Council chambers to do Palpatine's bidding, for instance, he evokes the silent assassin aspect of Darth Maul, but the Jedi kids obviously assume he's still Anakin Skywalker, heroic Jedi Knight. In this way, Palpatine seems to be toying with Anakin's conscience, blurring lines and stoking his conflict (shades of Snoke manipulating Kylo in TLJ), until he finally snaps on Mustafar: the caged, angry tiger now unleashed. It's also interesting that Palpatine at least gives Anakin the superficial sense of a veto. Or, at least, you get that impression because of the way Anakin responds: "I agree." On the Jedi Council, this was the one thing really denied to him. He was able to sit on the Council, but only because the Council wanted him to spy on Palpatine. By not being granted the title of Jedi Master, Anakin was technically outranked by all the other Council members. So, in a way, he is living out a childish fantasy with Palpatine. He can say he agrees like it's worth a damn. As if this is a 50-50 arrangement and his opinion carries weight. Star Wars encourages us, if we're paying attention, to examine words carefully and to look at power dynamics with a more critical eye. Also, in your new viewing order, I suspect Palpatine manipulating Amidala into turning against Chancellor Valorum carries more weight. First, the husband is manipulated (in your viewing order), and then the wife.
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