Some ignored aspects of Anakin and Padme relationship

Great food for thought here, lots to chew on, contemplate and go over.

It's true that the love story of Padme & Anakin has been dismissed or written off by a sizable portion of the general audience, which I find unfortunate because it is richly embedded with wellsprings of depth and humanity - bounteously filled with beauty, humor, turbulence and tragedy. It is styled in the classic sensibilities, yet it's one of the most profound movie love stories of our time.

I always felt the misunderstanding was due to the audience's failure to just look deeper, but you helped me realize the other symptom, with your use of the word extrapolation; that they are looking at it through post-modern lenses & expectations, thus missing the bigger picture and misinterpreting the essential tonal expression, which also results in a failure to understand what is at work here.


By "unhealthy" I get the sense they are referring to psychological conditions such as codependency, obsessiveness, enabling, wanting a mommy figure, wanting a bad boy, someone to fix, etc. Perhaps audiences are too quick in putting modern psychoanalytical labels on the behaviors they see in the characters, and stopping there, without looking deeper into the innermost workings of the characters or the story of the galaxy, which are both symbiotically intertwined into one, another masterful touch.

Is that what you meant by the body? The mind/psyche kind of falls into an area between the body & the soul, but as far as love, the body/soul difference is between lust and a soul connection. Perhaps fans determine that they only lusted after each other - and only because Lucas knew they needed to fall in love. Which I see as a shortchanging of Lucas' intention in the scope of his marvelous work here.

I couldn't say it more precise! It is indeed! There are so many prejudices that the audience has (i.e. we know that because it reveals them in this rant against the love story) and maybe the stronger ones are described by you.

About the psychoanalytical labels as you called them, or more precisely said, the pseudo psychoanalytical labels: yes, the viewers do that to explain and moreover to 'tame' and symbolically put in control what cannot be tamed or put in control, i.e. the love. Is like they don't believe that such love can exist so they re-described it and explain it as deviation and all is safe and reasonable again , all is in order because this is just out of space, is unreal (all the opposite) or is not normal at all. In a very strict meaning of the word 'normal' the love of Ani and Padme is not normal as is not everyday thing, as it is larger than life as you said. Is unusual, extraordinary, strong. And for that it cannot be comfortable.

The so called fans whine how Padme and Anakin look awkward and say awkward and weird things. But of course, this is 'the normal' way to react in such situations. I would add more: they know that their love is forbidden and it is not that they don't care about it. Is not like in many contemporary movie romances (even Titanic is that way) where the protagonists actually don't care about the consequences of their actions and don't feel any guilt ('I feel good so I can do whatever I want', that is the principle). Is all the opposite with Ani and Padme: they know. That's why for them was so hard to confess their feeling to each other (for Anakin is less hard as he is more spontaneous and emotional but in the same time, less hard deosn't mean easier). Here comes the underrated aspect with their marriage. Many people just accept it as the usual culmination of the courtly love. Ii is not only that. The marriage is commitment to the death and even after that. So Anakin and Padme refuse to have 'an affair' (which is not strictly forbidden for the Jedi, although is not 'encouraged') they dedicate one to another completely. This ultimate dedication is superfluously explained as obsession by some 'fans'. What a pity that they obviously don't know the difference between both things.

Agreed. I feel the disconnect many anti-PTers experience comes from there being so much depth, dimension and intense emotionality in Episodes I-III that it may be too much for the parameters of the average movie-goer. The love story is but one example; others include such things as Jar Jar’s exuberant innocence and child-like wonder, that people mistake for annoying slap-stick without recognizing the tonal significance he holds for the trilogy. And also the unfortunate state of moral dilemmas the characters find themselves in that are mislabeled as “grey areas” or even just misunderstood as bad writing. Even the duels, though often widely praised for their choreography, still tend to be overlooked in regards to their rich emotional textures.

The average movie-goer mostly just wants to be entertained for a couple hours; with modern method acting, some action & explosions, and sometimes a few people will also say, “Oh, and the main character had an interesting change of perspective at the end”. A superficial glance at these films is not enough, contemplation and discussion are needed to allow the inner beauty of this saga to blossom in the mind & soul. These films are not meant to be watched once or twice and quickly judged as “good” or “bad”. These are not like most other films. Trying to always transpose the sublime into the mundane is a disservice to the accomplishments Lucas achieved here. I mean, the OT is layered too, it’s just that the upper layers of that trilogy are perhaps more accessible (in a popcorn way?) in contrast to the more elusive nature of the PT. Which is perfectly appropriate, and that’s the thing. They form a beautiful yin-yang in many ways.

Now, if I can take this conversation further, another term I feel gets thrown around too haphazardly when talking about the characters and the love story of Episodes I-III is “flaw” or “weakness". Do these have flaws or weaknesses? Well, sure in a manner of speaking, but to just slap that label on it and move on, thinking one has it figured out, is an oversight and a missed opportunity to revel in the layered explorations of human nature these films afford, imo.

For starters, were Padmé and her love for Anakin flawed in that she "looked past his red flags" or because she didn’t run after hearing Anakin’s confession of the Tusken slaughter? Like I said in the Anakin thread, she was the only person in the galaxy who was willing (and immediately available) to support him in his crisis and to have faith in him to the end - because she’s a compassionate, strong person, and she saw the immense good in him that was worth nurturing. And her role moving forward was that of continued support in his ambition to be a Jedi and to do good in the galaxy. His decisions regarding the aftermath of the Tuskens and the death of his mother was his to make, alone. (I plan to get into this later). To say, “She just shrugged it off” is missing who Padmé is.

There are two ways to look at Padmé's disposition regarding Anakin: her overlooking of his red flags is a weakness and a flaw. Or her love for Anakin was so strong and her faith & trust in him was so deep that they were perhaps too fervid. By that I mean it is exactly in her strength that she focuses on the good in the ones she loves and believes in. This is definitely an noble and understandable virtue, and everybody wants someone to have faith in them… and yet perhaps it is in her infinite faith in Ani to take responsibility for himself and make the right decisions, that an innocent blindspot dwelled. Her role was to be there to understand and support Anakin on a human level. It was not her responsibility to make him do what he had to do. She had the faith, and that’s what Anakin needed, but the question is, could he deliver? She 100+% believed he could.

Now on the other side of the coin, one can say Anakin’s fatal weakness or flaw was that he was selfish and possessive of his loved ones. And/or that he didn’t want to face the change of losing them. And that is valid, even George says that in his interviews. But as with Padmé, I would just add by putting forth that this is relatively understandable, and I feel the term "over-extended strength" may apply more fittingly. His desire to love and to protect that love perhaps burned too intensely and personally for one sworn to protect the galaxy from evil. Anakin walked a precarious line in wanting both, and Sidious saw that as the way to maneuver him to his side.

Now, I often shake my head when I hear people say “Palpatine exploited people’s weaknesses”. Hm, I would suggest a more appropriate description would be to say that he backs people into corners where they are forced to make decisions they normally wouldn’t make, but by playing to their strengths; getting them to over-extend themselves and open up a vulnerability - or provide him a stepping stone. For example, I recently saw a fellow PT-lover say Palpatine used Amidala’s “weakness” of her devotion to her people to dethrone Valorum. Weakness? Weakness, you say? Not weakness, a strength this is! And not only that, this particular strategy is what sets Palpatine apart from typical villains, he doesn’t exploit people’s weaknesses, he employs their strengths to set them down the path of his design, knowing their natural fortitude is what they will always default to when cornered. He maneuvers them into being complicit in their own downfall while using them as a means to his own gain.

Back to Padmé & Ani. I mentioned the boundless faith that is innate within Padme’s strength. One of my favorite scenes in the saga is the balcony scene where she jokes that love has blinded him. This is a powerful moment, but unfortunately, again I feel people walk away from it with too shallow an interpretation. They think, “Oh, their mistake was that they overlooked each other’s flaws and were codependent. See it says it right there”. Not overlooking; Padmé knew Anakin better than anyone, possibly even himself— but in her absolute faith in him, she had what ended up being a misplaced certainty that the good in him would be the compass that would ultimately lead him to do the right things. It is the beauty of their love that makes them feel fulfilled and brings out each other's strengths. But yes, there is a mutual irony in her accusing him of being blinded by his love. And after all, there is a little truth in every joke. But was it just that Anakin’s love was blinding him? I'd say it’s that within that fire and passion they created together also burned the flame of over-attachment and emotions that clouded his judgement, and an unwillingness to let it go so that others could live. Anakin said it himself, that the Sith only think of themselves, Jedi think of others.

Conversely, Padmé knew Anakin was rash and made mistakes, but I feel people put an inappropriately heavy a burden on her here. She knew Anakin was a good person, but she wasn't aware, nobody was aware, of the X-factor at play here: Paplatine was a Sith Lord and a master manipulator who was actively seeking to turn this powerful Force-weilder into his imperial enforcer. Who would? Did she suspect that inside Anakin could lay the an inclination to chose her life over others? Again, who would think to look for something like that? But I think through their strong bond this may be something that she was sensing during her ruminations. And of course later in “There’s still good in him.” To her, he’ll always be that heroic, noble boy from Tatooine. Through it all she saw him as ultimately solidly principled. Anakin made the wrong mistakes in the wrong circumstances. Mistakes he might not have made if he’d taken responsibility and faced up to what he did on Tatooine, and seek help for his issues which contributed to that.


This scene is worth 10,000 words.
I feel this shot epitomizes this quality I'm describing in Padmé. The steadfast, abiding faith. Was she sensing the turmoil in Anakin? Did she recognize the turbulent side of him, within the context of what has been on his mind lately?
If so, she didn't falter in her assurance in him.


"I can't help it."
Though he struggled to be the Jedi he should be, within Anakin lie a smoldering sorrow and a fear of loss and thus a propensity to keep his world intact even if it meant sacrificing the rest.


So, was it merely that their relationship was flawed? Again, one could make that assessment, but I would once again suggest that their near-sightedness is based in strengths that burned too bright for their own good, so to speak. Was Padmé's flaw that she had undying trust and hope in Anakin, and loved him in spite of all the danger? If so, it’s the flaw that saw the good in him which was passed on to Luke, which enacted Ani’s fulfillment of the prophesy and saved the Galaxy from the Sith Empire. Padmé was aware that having faith in Anakin could be a gamble, but she felt it was a gamble with good odds worth taking. Padmé lost. But thankfully, Luke later took the same gamble which led to a better outcome. And judging by the outcomes alone, one could say Padmé was wrong, or flawed, but can you really say that? Is she at fault? Wouldn’t Padmé & Luke be equally "flawed”? And again, is flaw really the right word? Is having faith in a good man and a protector a flaw?

By his nature, Anakin was a protector and he wanted to be the best one possible. Anakin’s role is to stand up unshakably in the face of death from outside threats. But the fear of “what if” crept into his mind - what if an internal medical issue posed a threat? Something beyond his control. He was willing to do whatever it took to protect those who needed it, by any means necessary. However, it turned out, his instinct to protect Padmé ultimately dominated his desire to protect others and stop evil. Was it inevitable that he would always make that choice? He earlier expressed guilt over his dark pursuit, and he seemed to be weighing the decision while waiting in the Council room. Did he regret it afterwards? I believe that is largely what his tears signify. At the crux of this is that it was a choice.

You can’t control change or death, you can only control are your choices. Was Anakin’s dream a vision of an inevitable outcome? Perhaps the message he was supposed to recognize was; You’re walking along a slippery slope; the Sith are after you, and if you continue on with fear of losing your attachments and emotions that cloud your judgment, you will be lured to the dark side. If you don’t focus your perspective, which determines one’s reality: change is constant, things aren’t fair but life can go on amidst loss. This is basically what Yoda tells Anakin. And I think it was Padmé's comment about love blinding him that served as a catalyst for the dream. The brightness of their love was a wonderful thing, but as a Force user it is crucial that Anakin know that that the glare was blinded him, along with the painful sorrow of losing his mother. But though he sought Yoda’s advice, he didn’t like it and without other avenues, he turned to dark sorcery for the answer. And in desperation and his refusal to let go of his intimate connection, he gave up on the values of self-sacrifice and hope. But this was not what Padmé would've wanted and it was the beginning of a path Padmé could not follow, and the rending of their souls broke her heart.

And what is poignant, although tragic, about the final chapter of Anakin & Padmé is that it is centered around these three essential human aspects: Intimate connection, self-sacrifice and hope.

To bury the pain of his mother’s death and the guilt of failing her, he exploded into rage. But by doing so he became that which he resented most as a protector; an agent of death. And eventually he became a killing machine, as his cybernetic arm symbolized the path he could head down. The cybernetic arm he received because his judgment was clouded over his inability to let go of Padmé. Which also clouded his judgment over what to do about his dream of Padmé dying.

Anakin was convinced the Jedi held themselves back. Why not seek stronger powers? Yoda later says “Strong am I in the Force, but not that strong”. Anakin asks, why not, if it works? Anakin was too human to be stoic in the face of brutal personal loss. When faced with the possibility of losing Padmé, and without the aid he was looking for in the Jedi, he became too reliant on the quick & easy solution of forbidden dark knowledge, rather than love and hope, or the Jedi solutions of self-sacrifice and non-attachment. His weakness/over extended strength was that he desired to protect to such a degree that his loved ones became posessions that he did not want to lose. Combined with his way of twisting things to justify his desires. (i.e. look at what poor Anakin had to do to reconcile his nature with the Jedi code on love and attachment, by warping it to suit the way he is wired). His yearning for love was his strength as well as his Achilles heel.

Bottom line, the point I’m trying to make here (and I feel Lucas was making) with Padme, Ani, the Jedi etc. was not that they had “stupid weaknesses", but that they were fervent in their values and virtues and strengths, but were missing part of the bigger picture. Most of all they are forced into making choices they normally wouldn’t by unknowingly employing their good intentions to pave the way for the Empire.

Lucas stated plainly that Anakin’s undoing was that he "loveth too much.” And I would say the same goes for Padmé and the Jedi. To put it both simplistically and abstractly.

TL;DR version:

Anakin’s ultimately fatal flaws were that he didn’t take responsibility for his imbalances and was relatively easily seduced/manipulated. Padmé was there to support him. The only flaw I can see in her is that she had perhaps an over abundance of faith & trust in Anakin to actively do these right things and better himself, but nothing she would think to run from. Their love was strong and intensely bright, they had a solid bond, they couldn’t handle a ripping apart. When faced with making a split-second decision Anakin was willing to spare the Sith Lord to save his love at the cost of his soul - the Dark Side consumed him after his pledge. The brutal, tragic irony being that it is this decision that ripped them apart, the result of which he saw in his dream, which led him to his decision. Brilliant story crafting. Massively tragic, but brilliant.

Padmé had faith in Anakin’s goodness and in his capacity to ultimately do the right thing - though when in a conundrum, within Anakin dwelled the desire to protect his world above the rest. His family over the Jedi way. Little did either of them know, Palpatine was a master manipulator with his sights set on Anakin. So my final verdict is that the layered nuances here show a deeper humanity than mere flaws or weaknesses; but rather strengths focused inward and strengths Palpatine took advantage of.

I think Anakin realized to a degree what is happening to him. I feel lost, he said to Padme earlier in the movie and moreover he didn't only feel lost but he had lost himself later. To find himself wasn't possible using the Jedi ways they teach him. I understand why he didn't accept Yoda's advice. In that situation this was not a solution but just a cliche in his eyes. Is like if someone come to a teacher to look for a solution in a very particular case and the only solution he receives is theoretical abstract that serves for nothing in that situation. If Yoda even said: stay close to the person and try to protect her/him it would be enough. What Anakin needed was a little hope and he didn't receive any of it. He wouldn't be so desperate if Padme wasn't in danger because she was his life, his breathing air, the only hope he could have. And this hope was given to him by this special gift that Padme left him: his son.

I'm not sure I like this picture. Is very well drawn however it doesn't depict Padme truthfully (I don't have in mind the physical appearance). Anakin here looks closer to his Vader persona and Padme looks too close to him as she needs his protection. Maybe is what Anakin sees in Ep.3. However, emotionally she is the pillar of balance in their relationship, yes being fragile as appearance and never being aggressive. Is another of the misunderstood elements of their relationship.

To me, the only thing even appearing “unhealthy” while they were married was something beyond their control, and that is the Jedi Order’s rule about attachments.
It is also indicated in the films that Padme is inherently driven to focus on her career, and that this is expected of her

In ROTS, she expresses fear that the Queen will recall her from her duties if the pregnancy gets out. While her political subplot was largely omitted from ROTS, I feel as though that line demonstrates that despite her love for Anakin, Padme is just as devoted to her work as ever (a side of her not seen much in ROTS compared to its predecessors.

I’ve thought about it, and I don’t think that Anakin was so terrible in AOTC either, except maybe the camera joke. The line “Sorry milady” seemed off to me too, but really, Anakin isn’t at all experienced in this field. Neither is Padme.

The only time it does become unhealthy is after he turns to the dark side, which is where the tragedy of the romance unfolds. Otherwise, they were just like a loving husband and wife. Most husbands would do a lot to try and stop their wives from dying, but Anakin took it too far after he turned to the dark side and attacked the Temple.

And I do remember the Clovis arc of TCW’s sixth season.

Sorry to butt into this topic but this seemed most appropriate here:

In the veranda scene in ROTS where Padme openly yearns for a simpler time with Anakin on Naboo "when there was nothing but [their] love," the following dialogue suggests something peculiar about this moment of felt nostalgia for the seemingly idyllic. As the two embrace following that line, Padme says there was "no politics, no plotting, no war" back then on Naboo. But that's not quite true under close examination.

• First, there was politics. Their little meadow-side chat was rife with ideas and particularly dark rumblings of a political nature.
  
• Second, there was plotting. Anakin faked being injured from a daring ride on a shaak in addition to certain conversational tacks to provocate Padme's affection.
• Lastly, there was war. Padme and Anakin had a serious feud over the prospect of a love affair which reached deeply into their identities as Senator and Jedi, respectively. Anakin came away particularly damaged.
  

A bridge too far. Thanks for your correction and clarification.