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Post by tonyg on May 25, 2020 15:55:53 GMT
I see another motivation behind his actions in that moment.
For the first time Anakin is willing to follow orders just because the orders are given and not because they make sense (as was his previous motivation as we can see earlier in the movie). And he thinks that would make him a better Jedi indeed because is this what he misses and failed because he violated such orders, yes. But where is the difference? In the detail that he is trying to follow orders but he actually thinks that is right to save Obi Wan. He promised that he could be better than this which in this case means follow the rules more strictly but is he really ready to follow the rules and not people? I mean, Padme didn't exactly make grand efforts to persuade him to come with her. He didn't hesitate to follow her and even he looked happy when she gave him the excuse to go to save Obi Wan. Don't get me wrong, I think he did it right here, but is not that he was ready to let go. He was willing to be more obedient but after all, Obi Wan was more important than his own guilt: part of the reasons that Padme loved in Anakin and obviously couldn't like in any other Jedi (as they avoid to act with such motivation).
Actually this is the second time when Padme pushes the things away: in both cases she stays at Anakin side against everything if I can say so. The first was of course when she said "I'll go with you" and came to Tattoine. For me it was the first confession of love by her side: she is not needed there but she can be there for him and also this allows him to follow his orders to protect her. Second time: they ordered him to stay where he is but she again gave him the excuse to follow the more important order: to protect her and in the same time to save his friend and mentor. Padme already said "I'll be there for you always" but not in such direct way as in the tunnel of the arena.
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Post by Moonshield on May 25, 2020 16:26:43 GMT
Of course, you are right, but I'm not saying about his motivation. The important thing that he could make a difficult decision.
He has just lost his mother. And, despite this, he could refuse. He said: "He is like my father". That was his deed, for which Padme can respect him.
He could prove that he is strong-willed.
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Post by Cryogenic on May 27, 2020 3:36:43 GMT
A bridge too far. Thanks for your correction and clarification. I don't think it was a bridge too far. Revisiting what you said: Sorry to butt into this topic but this seemed most appropriate here: In the veranda scene in ROTS where Padme openly yearns for a simpler time with Anakin on Naboo "when there was nothing but [their] love," the following dialogue suggests something peculiar about this moment of felt nostalgia for the seemingly idyllic. As the two embrace following that line, Padme says there was "no politics, no plotting, no war" back then on Naboo. But that's not quite true under close examination. - First, there was politics. Their little meadow-side chat was rife with ideas and particularly dark rumblings of a political nature.
- Second, there was plotting. Anakin faked being injured from a daring ride on a shaak in addition to certain conversational tacks to provocate Padme's affection.
- Lastly, there was war. Padme and Anakin had a serious feud over the prospect of a love affair which reached deeply into their identities as Senator and Jedi, respectively. Anakin came away particularly damaged.
Anyway, this occurred to me a few years ago but I had nowhere to air it. Anyway, what's that they say? "Love is a battlefield"? I think Lucas would agree. And the objections put to it: Padme talked about the moment of their honey moon, if I can call it that way but maybe it was a week when they secretly married and stayed on the lake country. From what she said in ROTS is obvious that in the mentioned moment they already had confessed their love to each other (hold me like you did on th lake of Naboo she said, he never did that in AOTC for obvious reasons) . There was no war at this scale at this moment: Yoda forsaw it but even the other Jedi on the room on the final scene of AOTC looked how to say it , unpleasantly suprised when he said that. So the Clone war is not at full speed then, is only a battle of Geonosis. Whether they stayed on Naboo a day or a week, it doesn't alter the fact that they essentially fled there -- twice in the same film -- in the shadow of war, conspiracy, aggression, assassination, and espionage. As this cogent essay by Anne Lancashire on the political subtext of AOTC noted way back in 2002, the landsape (and the gathering storm clouds) of the meadow, where Anakin intensifies his seduction of Amidala, "are visually reminiscent of 1965's The Sound of Music, a film narratively dealing with the coming of Naziism to Austria". She states: "Lucas's dialogue and intertextual methods in this sequence are those of political commentary, not of realism or of romantic fantasy." The prequel narrative is rife with political allusions. Therefore, when Padme wistfully talks of a time free of "politics", "plotting", and "war", she is clearly idealising her past with Anakin -- a reading supported by her invocation of the fairy-tale-like opening words to every SW film ("[so] long ago"), and the dream-like imagery used to depict her in a trance-like state the next time she is shown on the veranda, minus Anakin. Maybe the Clone Wars weren't at full-pelt after the Battle of Geonosis, but that rupturing event was clearly having dire consequences even within the limited timeframe of the remainder of the film. To wit, we see an idyllic (if sad/tragic and storm-cloud-dominated) wedding scene juxtaposed against, and happening in the shadow of, an epic moment of war machines loudly rumbling and taking off into the heavens: perhaps the most defining moment in the saga. War is now a part of the landscape of the films; and it will be difficult to reverse these tragic events. Arguably, this is capably summed up with Bail quietly banging his fist against the balustrade, just before the film cuts to Anakin and Padme having their blissful (though Padme looks sad and weary) wedding on Naboo. In a visual that basically sums the whole film up, Padme takes Anakin's metallic hand; embracing the all that he is. The wedding seals the deal on the fact that these characters don't care (remember their chat at the fireplace). Padme even confessed her love to Anakin because she believed the two were about to be violently ripped to shreds on Geonosis: the cradle of war. So I hold that she is being naive/idealistic and looking back at the past -- as people are wont to do -- with rose-tinted glasses.
Well, at least you allow that this is basically a wish of Padme's, and not quite reality. I think you're doing a disservice to Somny's quip that "Love is a battlefield". There's also the famous quote of Carl von Clausewitz that "War is the continuation of politics by [or with] other means". The dialogue, it seems to me, is meant to be ironic. Coruscant may be a world of dagger-like buildings, shadows, and intrigue, and Naboo much more restful, open, and peaceful, but Padme doesn't seem aware that she is idealising the past. There is nowhere they can run and hide to and be entirely safe or free of their obligations and responsibilities. Heck, they originally left Naboo because Anakin had a vivid nightmare -- convenient how Padme forgets her initial rejection of Anakin on Naboo (and the reasoning she offered for that rejection) and the turmoil it stirred up within him. On the other hand, Padme is trying to soothe a tense situation, and in a way, she is perhaps trying to remind Anakin to hold onto something good. But then again, by slipping the word "plotting" in, she arouses Anakin's suspicions (look at his eye movements), rattling him even in a moment in which she is trying to calm him and disappear into his embrace.
It's obvious that she doesn't say about the meadows scene from AOTC, because at that moment even Anakin hadn't still declared of his love. Even during the clone wars, soldiers (Anakin) or politicians (Padme) can have a vacation. I think, they could have a vacation (a week), they went to Naboo for relax.
The lake, I suppose, is her sacred place -- and her haunting funeral scene is made to appear consistent with that underlying motif. I guess Padme, in an Ophelia-like way, wants to return to that lake eternally. In death, tragically, she gets her wish. Amazing storyline, these prequels have. |
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Post by tonyg on May 27, 2020 18:15:43 GMT
That is the point. Their love was never a battlefield. It was their sanctuary where there was no war and no politics, only love. That's why this love looks twice stolen: not only because is forbidden but because is against what happens in the outside world.
Leia-Han relationship was a battlefield to a point. It becomes real love when it stopped to be like that, in ROTJ. The great thing about Padme and Ani is that there is no such thing. Discussions: yes, of course, bit never fight for domination. Even in Mustafar where Anakin was already twisted he avoided this in the beginning. It became a battlefield when it became possession, not love.
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Somny
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Post by Somny on May 27, 2020 22:14:45 GMT
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Post by Cryogenic on May 28, 2020 1:25:06 GMT
And thanks for your defense, Cryo!
You're welcome, Somny! I'm a rebel. I like causing trouble.   |
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Post by jppiper on May 28, 2020 2:54:10 GMT
SomnyUnfortunately some Think Lucas made the Special Editions to spite her
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Post by tonyg on May 28, 2020 7:20:05 GMT
Actually Sonny, in these threads is not me who attack the others, so I hope you didn't feel attaked, this is just a discussion, after all. These movies look to me more like love letter by some who cannot do it other way. Or letter of "I'm so sorry" maybe, if we suppose that Marcia and Padme have some parallels between them (and in both cases the man lost them for good while for different reasons). |
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Post by Subtext Mining on May 3, 2022 11:30:25 GMT
In the Anakin's Fall thread I stated this: And now I'd supplement it with this: During Episode I, I feel Ani sees Padmé as someone like an alluring older buddy, a bright, friendly hero, and yeah, a hot babysitter. But not a new mother figure. She's his one ray of hope, and source of comfort and warmth in his new colder world, his new flame. Wanting to continue that connection and thus unable to get her out of his heart and mind, she eventually becomes a fascination. |
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Post by Subtext Mining on Sept 11, 2022 10:20:49 GMT
And interesting take from John Williams himself. From this 2002 interview. CNN: And as we saw in the piece, this time around there's the love story to write to. That must've been fun, in adding that challenge. Williams: Well, it's a deviation from everything else we do in Star Wars, it seems probably the last thing you would think of, but a love theme for a love story that has sort of cosmic reaches to it, if you'd like. When we think about love stories, I think of Romeo and Juliet or Tristan and Isolde, these kinds of things, where the lovers are separated by rank, or religion, or family, or class, or whatever - and that's the case here, also. CNN: Right, there's a forbidden side to this love story. And that would be reflected in the music as well. Williams: Exactly the point! That forbidden aspect that prevents the lovers from being completely together, until they share love eternal, if you like; the idea of love beyond time. So, it's a love theme but it also has a tragic aspect to it, also, that extends it into time beyond death. |
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Sept 12, 2022 13:44:52 GMT
where the lovers are separated by rank, or religion, or family, or class, or whatever - and that's the case here, also.
It's a fair point, but too often the same people saying this (in the US in particular) are the same people saying "I won't date x person because of his y politics." They have no issue with political background becoming a fence. They won't even consider such people.
That's a grating double standard. The dismissive part of human nature hasn't disappeared, people just pretend they're more morally superior and non-judgemental.
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Post by Subtext Mining on Apr 6, 2023 21:58:56 GMT
I've seen some people say Padmé is an enabler, with particular criticism towards her line, "To be angry is to be human". Some have even said it's no different than Palpatine's justifying revenge after Anakin kills Dooku.
I would say "To be angry is to be human" highlights the fact that Padmé understands that, unlike the other Jedi, Anakin is still part regular-person. And the implication is that all emotions are valid, and that they, even/especially the destructive ones, ought to be acknowledged and processed, but not avoided, suppressed or acted on. Just because she chose to respond with compassion rather than judgment, doesn't mean she's condoning what he did. She's actually trying to help him move forward in a better direction.
Palpatine, on the other hand, is just saying revenge is justified.
And what's brilliant is after Padmé's line, Anakin responds with, "I'm a Jedi, I know I'm better than this." Which perfectly illustrates how he has one foot in both worlds, which has him conflicted, yet ultimately wanting both, when it just doesn't work that way.
Which brings us to Anakin's big dilemma. All humans naturally form attachments to their loved ones. And with attachments, however, can also come pain, guilt and fear, it's just part of life. As a Jedi, Anakin is required to release his attachments, but he does not want to, when doing so would also greatly help him release his pain, guilt and fear. He wants to keep his attachments but avoid the uncomfortable stuff that comes with it. Which is understandable. But not healthy.
I'd say he fixates on Padmé while growing up in order to ease his anxieties around his mother, which just causes another attachment. Then, when his mother dies, instead of dealing with the pain, he decides to bypass, or circumvent it by wanting to learn how to stop it from happening again. So, here he is wanting the best of both worlds again, without the uncomfortable aspects that come with it. He wants his attachments and to abuse his talent in the Force to obtain the unnatural power to stop things from changing.
Padmé had faith and hope in Anakin to ultimately do the right thing, and never gave up on his potential. Some argue she was wrong to do this, but it's also the disposition Luke took towards him, and, as Anakin says in his final words, they both ended up being right.
His strong drive to love and protect was the good inside him, but a sense of self-sacrifice when necessary was the key to the balance he needed to find within himself.
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Post by Subtext Mining on Feb 12, 2024 0:16:40 GMT
I wouldn't exactly call it defending. He's just essentially saying it really is bad because their relationship is intentionally written to be "extremely toxic".
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Post by eljedicolombiano on Feb 12, 2024 2:43:14 GMT
that's a terrible defense and something that George never intended
I swear such a large portion of the fandom are terrible at art literacy... bloody philistines
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Post by smittysgelato on Feb 12, 2024 5:12:48 GMT
My impression is that people see it as toxic because they can't see outside their 21st-Century expectations for romance. Anakin and Padme are heavily influenced by medieval courtly love, after all...
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Post by jppiper on Feb 12, 2024 6:07:31 GMT
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Post by tonyg on Feb 12, 2024 10:12:46 GMT
I wouldn't exactly call it defending. He's just essentially saying it really is bad because their relationship is intentionally written to be "extremely toxic". Yeah, that's why they share together the good and the bad (the good in the end of AOTC and the bad in the end of ROTS). As we discussed earlier, the inability to overcome the egoistic approach of love is the biggest obstacle for people to understand what true love means. It is not a mean dedicated to give the individual pleasure time, while indeed there are wonderful moments. It is not a medicine to cure someone's problems (so people can perceive it as toxic or not, but it is not that at all). It is so sad to see how this egoistic approach destroys every understanding of the beautiful and valuable things in life. |
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Post by smittysgelato on Feb 12, 2024 20:14:54 GMT
The viewers who think Anakin and Padme are toxic are really gonna HATE my take on Padme's death, hahaha.
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Post by Subtext Mining on Feb 13, 2024 7:58:26 GMT
Another thing I think gets misunderstood is when Padmé says, "It makes me feel uncomfortable", she isn't saying it because she doesn't like Anakin yet, she just 1) wants to keep things professional,
and 2) she obviously didn't like that blunt approach he was taking.
So Anakin took what she said to heart and resolved to find a better approach that would feel more safe and subtle, more playful and vulnerable. And I think that effort he showed went a long way in showing her how much he cared about her and her wishes.
And you can see by her wardrobe on Naboo she is starting to feel more safe and comfortable around Anakin.
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