Anakin's Fall - schools of thought

I obviously support option 1, even though I would have worded it differently.

As far as the other two options, I'll share my thoughts below.



I completely disagree with the premiss that there was a "highly dysfunctional Jedi Order". There's just nothing to support that in the movies.

I'd argue that we are supposed to understand Anakin and his actions, not necessarily have sympathy for him (although it can happen, of course).

P.S: Jake Skywalker may have "major issues with the Jedi Order", but the true Luke Skywalker doesn't.



Indeed, it's bafflingly gaining more and more support, which makes me despise it immensely.

It's a dishonest and twisted logic, on many levels.

For starters, Anakin didn't have any trauma as a child slave. Difficulties? Sure. Adversity? Definitely. Improper conditions? Yes. But not trauma. Same with Shmi. Actually, the fact that they are mentally (and phisically) healthy and morally good when we meet them and become aware of their reality, is a strength to both characters. The fact that they are willing to help others in a selfless manner.

Second, Anakin was not handed over to a "cold, arrogant, pitiless Jedi Order". The Jedi Order is not cold, arrogant or pitiless. Stoicism is not coldness. Confidence is not arrogance. Honesty and rectitude is not pitilessness.

Third, Obi-Wan was not (and didn't end up being) an unsuitable mentor. Anakin himself recognized that. Anakin's criticism is all about Obi-Wan "holding him back", but we know that's his petulence speaking. His desperate attempt to shift the blame of his own actions to someone else.

The fact that Anakin has an evil mentor in the form of Palpatine, that constantly feeds him opposing and immoral counsel and advice, fosters confusion and expoits his ego, arrogance and greed, but that's on Palpatine (and by extension, Anakin). Not Obi-Wan or the Jedi.

It's all about hard truths vs sweet lies. Selflessness vs selfishness. We know who offers which.

Ah humans, always segmenting the elements of something into separate camps and exaggerating the details to extremes of absolutism - when in reality it's a subtle blend of all the above and the lines are much more blurred.

The elephant in the dark room is the perfect analogy.

The layered dynamics between Anakin and The Jedi, and Padmé, and Palpatine, and Watto, and his mother, and Obi-Wan all delicately weave together to create this story of promise and prosperity into one of tragedy.

Now I will quote a song.
A Little Bit Me, A Little Bit You by The Monkees
(my favorite song around age 11).
Girl
I don't want to find
I'm a little bit wrong
And you're a little bit right
And I said, girl
You know that it's true
It's a little bit me (a little bit me)
And it's a little bit you, too

(Just replace "girl" with most of the entities mentioned above).


Everyone was doing what they thought was best given the circumstances they found themselves in. It just turns out, shockingly, that not everyone is perfect.
Although, most of this was all really Sidious and his machinations for ultimate revenge and rule.

Perhaps human nature itself is why the PT seems to have gone over like a led balloon. Especially in our age of explosion-centric, one-dimensional TV and action movies where often the hero is perfect. Which is a little ironic since the PT (and the OT as it starts to evolve into what would be the tone of the PT) is about human frailties.


I guess I just want to say only Sith deal in absolutes

That's right. We -- all of us -- have a hard time dealing in subtlety, complexity, and nuance. 

Along with that, we often manifest an intolerance of ambiguity, too. 




Well, darn! That's certainly a poignant and particularly neat way of putting it. 




Nice lyrics. You had pretty advanced taste and subtle understanding for an eleven-year-old. 

The Monkees are the key to all this.




That's right. As Lucas has said: the premise of the PT is that everyone thinks they're doing good, even when they're not.

Sidious is something like the focused negative energies of all the characters combined. If you like: he's the antithesis of the positive bond between Padme and Jar Jar and all the fruits that come from it.

Start with TPM, folks. It's (almost) the best one.




Yes. Again, as Lucas has said: Star Wars isn't about monsters, but human frailties. I sense you were paraphrasing him there.

I think the landscape of television has changed in recent years with Netflix and Amazon Prime. Thoughtful shows have started to emerge like never before. As far as the big screen goes: some people swear up and down that the Marvel movies offer character depth and philosophical complexity (pass). 

But the thing is, as I think you're hinting at: 

A lot of well-liked films and TV shows have silver-tongued heroes and villains. The good guys of Star Wars, on the other hand, tend to be a little bland in their utterings. And good guys in Star Wars are meant to stay good. Anti-heroes are only allowed if they have a cool ship and don't stray too far to the dark (like Han).

The prequels, in general, represent a severe challenge to the Death Star of modern culture. Once upon a time in the western world, an orange-skinned, bell-bottomed salamander secretly became a new Millennium Falcon for our hipster age and everyone lost their minds.




Ha! I think Obi-Wan actually meant to say:

"Lonely are the Sith, who deal in absolutes."







True. It's like death and taxes. Both are inevitable in Anakin's sad trajectory and you can't have one without the other.

Maybe that should be a new tagline for the prequels. Fanboys were wrong. TPM has little to do with a trade dispute. But death and taxes? Yeah, those things are hard to avoid...

Please don't mistake my light-hearted facetiousness as some errant rejection of your response. I agree that Palpatine plays a not-insignificant role in Anakin's downfall, but as with bashing the Jedi while showing little regard for their better qualities or the validity of their doctrine (although, in this case, for me, that would require other posts), one should also be careful not to erect simplistic boogeymen and scapegoats external to the Jedi. Under the Jedi, Anakin becomes the misshapen clay that Palpatine cunningly molds to suit his own wares and schemes. The two are almost in a kind of unconscious collusion with one another.



I've given some arbitrary sub-headings here to make this response a little easier to read -- or "digest":


Off-screen happenings

A lot of Anakin's growing disillusionment with the arc of his life under the Jedi also happens off-screen. For example, Obi-Wan tersely admonishes Anakin, in front of Padme and her assembled team, "We will not go through this exercise again, Anakin." Speaking to him very much as if he's an impetuous, wayward child. And "again" is the operative word in that rebuke. Obi-Wan has obviously given Anakin various raps on the knuckles prior to this situation. We are left to infer a number of dimensions to Anakin's psyche based on subsequent outcomes delivered in the form of snapshots; which, in turn, should encourage deeper thinking about the wider mosaic that Anakin, Obi-Wan, Palpatine, and the Jedi all exist inside of. 

Consider Anakin's death-chasing, rebellious instincts in the ensuing speeder chase, and his sarcasm toward Obi-Wan when Obi-Wan berates him for (seemingly) losing Zam in the thick lanes of traffic, after Anakin took a different route, much to Obi-Wan's undisguised irritation and disbelief. Obi-Wan is not merely Anakin's mentor and guardian, but a kind of Doubting Thomas to Palpatine's more encouraging and optimistic Qui-Gon. Obi-Wan is a very no-nonsense guy and so is Anakin, but Obi-Wan doesn't like to take too many risks, sticking rigidly to the Jedi Code and clenching his teeth in moments of risk and danger (like when Anakin is performing a deep vertical dive in the speeder to keep up with Zam and experience some teenage thrills). In a few fleeting moments of inspired character revelation in the middle of a pulse-pounding chase sequence, Lucas lays it bare and lets us soak it all in. Repeat viewings are practically a given.


Anakin, Obi-Wan, and the power of flight 

The fact that Obi-Wan doesn't seem to like flying is highly illustrative of a fundamental psychological difference between Anakin and his overbearing teacher. While Obi-Wan objects to Anakin's casually-delivered dig of his foibles and fires back a defence ("I don't mind flying, but what you're doing is suicide"), Obi-Wan later speaks directly to the audience on the matter, more or less affirming what Anakin said ("Blast, this is why I hate flying"). Another reminder comes in the opening space battle in ROTS. Obi-Wan's dislike of flying links him with worry-wart C-3PO (the nerve-wracked droid built by Anakin -- like Anakin got rid of some of his anxieties and poured them into his unfortunate robot alter-ego), leaving Anakin to be Artoo, who is forever jabbing back at Threepio and doing his own thing, in defiance of Threepio's constant chides and scolds. 

This is all important because Anakin is still growing (in comparison to the seemingly unchanging and eternal Artoo). Who'd want to be told they're doing the wrong thing all the time, especially by someone reluctant to ever venture too far across the dotted line? Who wants to be constantly rebuked and rebuffed, especially when the other person seems to also have a streak of envy and resentment that you can do things they can't (like enjoying flying and being a speed merchant)? In these regards, Anakin is right to suspect that Obi-Wan is jealous and holding him back; even if the dynamic between teacher and pupil is much more delicate and nuanced than Anakin, in his most tempestuous moments, makes it out to be. Obi-Wan's nervousness when it comes to flying is also a metaphor: he can't handle the machine-world interface or deal in the third-dimension as well as Anakin. Obi-Wan has a good deal to be jealous about.


The Qui-Gon factor (if the poncho fits, you must acquit)

But Qui-Gon never displayed Obi-Wan's anxieties and limitations. He didn't do an "Anakin to Threepio" and pour his anxieties into Anakin, compounding on Anakin's inner fears and worries. No, he was supportive of Anakin, placed his trust in him, saw his potential, argued for Anakin's acceptance into the Jedi Order, and encouraged him to trust his instincts ("Feel, don't think"). Of course, Qui-Gon could be a little bossy and direct with Anakin, such as shouting at him to "drop" when Maul tries to ram him with his speeder bike, and then to run to the queen's ship and "tell them to take off", but at least Qui-Gon was directly protecting Anakin in the same moment and not merely giving an order or slapping Anakin with an injunction. Granted, he also told him to find a place to hide on Naboo, when they were about to storm the palace, and to "stay there", while Anakin tries protesting and clearly wants to go where the others are going. This instruction of Qui-Gon's comes closer to a direct order, or a "Do as I say, not as I do" type of command. But, of course, Anakin interpreted this latter directive in a way that satisfied his need to stay involved: bending the order without breaking it. Sadly, Anakin finds the Jedi Order is one type of "order" that is less pliant and able to bend. 

Palpatine is the nearest equivalent to Qui-Gon for Anakin after Qui-Gon dies. He gives Anakin a feeling of acceptance, while Obi-Wan makes him feel like he's more of a problem. This goes back to the exchange on the landing platform between Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan that I mentioned before. Obi-Wan outright states the Jedi's tentative verdict on Anakin: that he's "dangerous" and everyone can sense it, apart from his master. And this is said in earshot of Anakin. Qui-Gon puts Obi-Wan in his place and won't hear of Anakin being dangerous. He instead tells Obi-Wan that Anakin's future is uncertain. But Anakin is obviously now concerned and affected by Obi-Wan's judgement, since he humbly tells Qui-Gon that he doesn't want to be a problem. Instead of straight-up asking Qui-Gon, "Am I dangerous?" or even contesting what was just said with something like, "Why do the Jedi think I'm dangerous?" (more like the slightly annoyed and defiant way he spoke back to Yoda), he is bothered by the idea his very presence could be problematic from the start. In a way, you could argue that Qui-Gon's serene nature brings a certain humility and element of self-effacement out of Anakin, which repeats under Palpatine -- and not, tellingly, under Obi-Wan. 


Seeds and a digression on digestion (and Elvis and elevators)

The good seeds of Anakin's character most obviously come from his mother -- a character completely external to the Jedi Order and the Galactic Republic itself. The bad seeds derive more from his slave background and the way he continues to feel shackled and out of place within the impersonal mechanism of the Republic; and through repetitiously suffering the harsh rebukes of a strict and unforgiving mentor within the arcane interstices of an elite organisation founded on emotional suppression. Palpatine preys on that, but like I said earlier, Anakin is the raw material given to him by the Jedi Order. It is like Anakin has been eaten by the Sarlacc and is being slowly digested (or rather rapidly in his case) over a compressed thousand-year period. Because Anakin is also a bit like Elvis in that strange sense he has of being born "10,000 years ago" (curiously: on the cover of the album with that subtitle, Elvis is shown as a little youngling wearing his father's oversized hat, reminiscent of the Jedi Younglings in their scene with Yoda) -- basically, a person who has seen more, and certainly *felt* more, than most people could ever know. And this is precisely what Obi-Wan has a hard time acknowledging. In Obi-Wan's eyes, Anakin is often wrong or straying from the Jedi path in some way, making things difficult, not listening, showing him up. Hell, even when Anakin isn't around, Obi-Wan still openly berates him, almost like a reflex action ("What in the blazes is he doing there?").

There's a certain comical irony in Anakin and Obi-Wan first *ascending* in an elevator (ele-vader), and apparently being on good terms with one another, only for things to turn sour a moment later "in public". And even in the elevator introduction, Obi-Wan misrecalls a perilous mission, suggesting they both took a tumble together, only for Anakin to correct him: "You fell into that nightmare and I rescued you, remember?" There's also a wonderful yet disturbing sadness to the way all these moments are completely forgotten, like tears in rain, by the time of Obi-Wan discussing Anakin with Luke in ROTJ. It is like those exploits never happened. We eventually go beyond misremembering into something far worse: unremembering. Even the very universe in which we live is gradually pulling itself apart, stars and galaxies becoming causally estranged from one another, the black of night hastening to become the infinite face of the cosmos. Without the ability to remember, which is to misremember, and to dream, which is to fear, fret, imagine, and quicken by the awful grace of God, what are we?


Jedi Orders and Death Stars 

Fear, anger, hate, and arrogance are normal human emotions. The point of being a Jedi is to bring those emotions under control and in deeper alignment with the pursuit of peace and justice, truth and beauty, and in the service of virtue; not to deny their very existence such that one becomes horribly disfigured and fearful of fear itself. The power of dreams, too, shouldn't be denied. But Obi-Wan does practically say to Anakin to ignore his dreams and put his fears aside. The Jedi didn't even want to let Anakin train because they were concerned that Anakin was afraid to lose his mother -- they were, you might say, fearful of fear itself, and themselves concerned (some might say fearful) about the possible consequences for the Jedi Order (less, I suspect, for Anakin himself). I don't think it's a coincidence that Anakin tells Yoda he feels cold in the presence of the Jedi Council, nor that the visual of him standing in front of the Council resembles Han being lowered into the carbon freezing pit. The setting-sun (with accompanying moon) imagery also suggests the waning/passing of the Jedi Order: Lucas' version of "The Twilight Of The Gods". Anakin's arrival marks the beginning of the end. Even the working title of the film, "The Beginning", is suggestive of not merely a starting phase, but evocative of a spiritual transfiguration: a religious reckoning, a world-changing transformation.

Anakin is the righteous drop of chaos in a world of stagnant, pertrifying order. It is almost like Anakin fleetingly sees himself anew in "A New Hope" (hehe), when he cautions the Imperial top brass, to whom he remains visually and spiritually removed from (for one thing: he's the only one standing -- the last mystic standing), that "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force". He is dismissed by Motti as a "sorcerer" trying to "frighten" them; though, in a way, this wording suggests that Vader's words have struck a nerve, deep down. This curiously contrasts with Anakin getting (initially) dismissed by the Jedi as (more or less) a "pathetic lifeform", whose own fears will be their undoing. In this way, the Jedi, too, fear the Force. They are too proud of the technological terror they have constructed to try and contain it according to their limited understanding. In short: the Jedi Order is "another Death Star". But to echo the words of Poe: "I wish that were the case." Then you could at least destroy it in a single blow. The destruction of the Jedi Order will be a much messier and sadder affair. That which will not be integrated will fester and grow and cause destruction from within. The novelisation to the original film gets it right, but misses the true target. It's not so much the Republic that "like the greatest of trees, able to withstand any external attack, rotted from within though the danger was not visible from outside", but the Jedi Order -- but, of course, they decline together.



Decided to throw in a few more sub-headings -- it's "heady" without them:


Qui-Gon, creative thinking, and being creative with the truth

Qui-Gon certainly warned Anakin that being a Jedi is a hard life. However, Qui-Gon is no ordinary Jedi. He is shown to be resistant to Jedi doctrine and immune to coralling by the Council. His strong emphasis on the Living Force places him at odds with the Council (much to Obi-Wan's chagrin). He does the bidding of the Republic and is faithful to the basic tenets of the Jedi Order, but he also disobeys, uses creative thinking, and goes where the Force wills him (again, much to Obi-Wan's chagrin). This is the point of his character. Jedi dogma didn't take with him so easily. And AOTC offers a basic insight into Qui-Gon's mentality when we learn that Dooku was his Old Master. While Dooku left the Jedi Order, Qui-Gon remained within its confines, but apparently found room to keep some of Dooku's earlier idealism intact. It is obvious, in fact, that Dooku's tutelage of Qui-Gon had a big impact on both their psyches. Remember another core concept in all of this (as also quoted in my former response): "What happens to one of you will affect the other."

In addition, and in an arguably Dooku-like moment of understated misdirection, Qui-Gon slightly misleads Anakin by failing to correct Anakin's misapprehension that the queen's ship wasn't his own ("You mean I get to go with you on your starship?"); and that, in fact, Jedi are meant to live without possessions and attachments. This element of Qui-Gon's personality is a touch shady, in my opinion. Anakin was quietly stunned when Qui-Gon went back to the shop and pulled out that hologram of the queen's ship. He refers to it several times to Watto as his ship, and its desirability is confirmed by Watto's complimentary reaction and the fact that Qui-Gon is willing to offer it up as the entry fee for the podrace. No wonder Anakin still had this misapprehension that this gorgeous craft belonged to Qui-Gon, the mystical stranger, when saying goodbye to his mother. Qui-Gon has the perfect opportunity to correct Anakin in this latter moment, but he doesn't embrace it. So Anakin leaves Tatooine with an imperfect understanding of who Qui-Gon is and what he will be expected to give up. And this misunderstanding crept in -- or got added to -- because Qui-Gon, displaying some Palpatine-esque greed of his own, saw a golden chance with Anakin: a way to test his abilities and earn them their way off Tatooine and back to the galactic capital as planned. All Anakin had to give up (unwittingly) was everything he already had and knew.


Qui-Gon and Palpatine: a "Living Force" podrace announcer

You can't easily get away from the darkness of these characters and the darkness lurking in the heart of humankind. We are left with the distinct and unshakeable feeling (arguably another "phantom menace") that Anakin would have been better off with Qui-Gon, however, because he likely would have taught him to properly recognise these darker aspects, and to be less afraid and ashamed of them. As Qui-Gon gnomically says at the dinner table to all in attendance: "Greed can be a powerful ally". And a Jedi's words can have a powerful influence on the weak- and impressionable-minded. It sounds like something Palpatine would say (while Yoda explicitly warns Anakin about greed in ROTS). Many of Palpatine's lines have an echo in remarks made by Qui-Gon. For instance, Qui-Gon says he's sure that "another solution will present itself" in Padme's presence on Tatooine, just as Palpatine says to the decoy queen, with Padme present, there's "a question of procedure", but that he's "confident [they] can overcome it" on Coruscant. They overlap in various ways and this strikes me as deliberate. It is like they are two heads attached to the same being. But one has a more devious and scheme-ier personality than the other.


Jedi and baggage

I very much agree that the issue or question is: "how to deal with that baggage?" But Obi-Wan lacks an adequate point of reference. His remark in the younglings scene is telling. Anakin ought to be "here, but [he] isn't". Obi-Wan does not understand the gravitic pull of attachment. The silhouette of Anakin's former life remains. It is highly notable that Obi-Wan stays on the ship in TPM and sees nothing of Anakin's humble slave existence. He complains to his master via intercom (remotely) of Qui-Gon potentially grounding them on Tatooine "for a very long time" (which ironically happens at the end of the PT). He has no affection for the place, no sensitivity for it; and by extension, no particular familiarity or keenness with Anakin's basic life circumstances. And he thinks nothing of lightly upbraiding Qui-Gon for landing them all with "another pathetic lifeform": complaining about a person he hasn't even met yet. Qui-Gon stoically reminds Obi-Wan that "It's the boy who's responsible for getting us these parts", and Anakin is therefore responsible for getting them off the dull rock that Obi-Wan complained to Qui-Gon about being stuck on the day before. Very little gratitude or humility in TPM Obi-Wan. Of course, he does later apologise to Qui-Gon. But I wouldn't put tremendous stock in that. Just as it doesn't necessarily mean a lot when Anakin apologises to Obi-Wan in ROTS. They haven't yet mended the faultlines in their own psyche -- and that's where the real task of living begins.



Hubris and hearing

Palpatine certainly tells Anakin what he longs to hear. I don't dispute that. But it's sometimes formulated that Palpatine tells Anakin what he wants to hear, while Obi-Wan tells him what he needs to hear. Personally, I think Obi-Wan often tells Anakin what his own ego wants Anakin to hear. There is too much investment of self in Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship (from both sides), leading to a borderline-unhealthy situation. All it requires is a bit of fiddling to render it unstable. Enter Palpatine. But as mendacious as Palpatine is, I don't think all blame should be put there. If the entire Jedi Order can't sniff out a Sith Lord controlling the Republic, I'd say there's a problem. Indeed, there's such a problem that no-one actually wants to say, "Houston, we have a problem." Some staighttalking astronaut speak is something the Jedi needed. Luke in "The Last Jedi" is actually more lucid on this point (I guess he would be: "luke", "lucid"). The Jedi Order became mired in its own dogma and enfeebled by its hypocrisy. Of course, a similar fate has befallen Luke, who has become crushed by his failure to live up to his own self-image, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a point regarding the Jedi. 


Straitjackets and teachers

I think Anakin being put into a Jedi straitjacket goes to the nub of the problem. Due to the strictures and expectations placed on and around him, Anakin is essentially fenced in, constrained, and impeded from addressing his fears in an adequate and appropriate manner. Palpatine is precisely so effective because he comfortably fills that niche. A niche that was left over following Qui-Gon's death. And while it was the Sith who were ultimately responsible for Qui-Gon's loss, Anakin got a very imperfect substitute in Obi-Wan. Indeed, there is good data to suggest that parents closer in age to their children are often much stricter than children with older parents. Parents closer in age tend to come down harder on their kids and overcompensate for their own lack of maturity and experience. I think we see this paradigm in Anakin's mentors. Qui-Gon and Palpatine are worldly and adept, while Obi-Wan's experiences and perspectives are much more limited -- perfectly symbolised by him remaining on the ship in TPM and disparaging both Jar Jar and Anakin. By AOTC, he is becoming more rounded, but many of the flaws of the younger Obi-Wan remain, and he has been training Anakin the whole time: a person with tremendous potential who desperately needed the input and guidance of more than one teacher.

Life is enriched by diversity and difference, whereas homogeneity and sameness tend to be stifling and oppressive. If Anakin had had more mentors and guardians to turn to, he might have been able to control his impulses and found a way through. There are many lessons offered to us in the fall of Anakin Skywalker. Arguably, the more of them we recognise and learn from, the better off as individuals and collective organisms we'll be.

I would say the clones have their independence erased (their training confirms that) but not their aggression. They are raised to be aggressive. Only by being obedient they are controlled i.e. this aggression is focused. While the Jedi Order's is dedicated to tame the aggression by wisdom, the combat training of the clones is dedicated to focus their aggression in certain approaches. They are dangerous to anyone who is not protected from this aggression i.e. who has not the ultimate control. In the end only Palpatine has it. The Jedi think they have it for the hierarchy and the obedience in the army but as a wise man once said in TPM: there is always a bigger fish.

I'm in the half-way house. The Jedi as a whole were not to blame, but one member in particular was, as well as the way Anakin's other mentors handled certain things. But Anakin was responsible in his own way as well, whether it be because of his mental state or his own bad choices.

Mace Windu.

I'm not going solely off the films though. There were minor elements of his true personality in the films themselves, but it got completely exploited in TCW. The one that I call to mind the most is his little comment to Ahsoka Tano after being "accepted back into the Jedi". 

"This was actually your great trial. Now we see that. We understand that the Force works in mysterious ways, and because of this trial, you have become a greater Jedi than you would have otherwise."

I would just like to remind others for the record that Ahsoka Tano was thrown under the bus by the twelve most powerful telepaths in the galaxy just because the Senate demanded her to leave. So this "apology" comes off like a last-minute excuse. Damnit, Ahsoka was being chased a la Harrison Ford in the Fugitive, to the point where her closest friends turned their backs on her just because the Council told them to; she was literally on death row until Anakin found the real culprit, who had no involvement with whatever development Ahsoka had while on the run. What kind of great trial is that? What kind of apology is that? No wonder Ahsoka left the Order. That "apology" was the nail in the coffin carrying her trust in her former family.

This is not the only case of this. In the show, we had a young Boba Fett trying to assassinate Windu out of revenge. When they finally capture him, he tells them that what he did was wrong, but to Windu's face he says that he won't forgive him. Usually, this is the point at which the Jedi would apologize, even if it doesn't mean much to the other person; it's still important to show compassion, especially to a kid whose dad the Jedi decapitated in one stroke. 

Mace Windu says: "Son, you're gonna have to."

He didn't even say sorry. He didn't show compassion to a kid who lost his dad only months ago to your hand. 

This is who Mace Windu ultimately is. Not tact, no likability. Just coldness. He's representative of the corruption or desensitization of the Jedi that made them unknowingly forego compassion. What was only hinted at in the actual Prequels themselves is brought to full light in the show, and in an almost shocking fashion.

So with that canon established, I think a good percentage of Anakin's fall to the Dark Side can be placed on Windu. 

Again, I'm gonna preface this by saying that if we were solely looking at the movies, then Anakin's fall is 95% his fault. The fact of the matter is though that a Lucas-approved source of Canon finally showed good enough reasons to advocate for Anakin. So let it be clear that I'm going off TCW with respect to ROTS.

Though I do want to mention one bit: in the Phantom Menace, Windu openly said that they couldn't train him. I understand that that is a valid concern on his part, considering how Jedi are brought up by traditional means, but where the heck would Anakin even go? He can't go back to Tatooine, he's not enslaved anymore. He can't stay with Qui-Gon, especially since Qui-Gon had promised Anakin that he'd be taught, but the council wouldn't let that happen. I'm just saying, there's a reason Qui-Gon was frustrated with them to begin with. But surely they could have given him some kind of hospitality, but we know that the Temple is mostly closed off from visitors. Anakin would have to be sent off into the streets.

Anyhow, the entire point behind Anakin getting Ahsoka as a padawan, according to Yoda, is that he believed that Ahsoka will alleviate Anakin's fear of losing the ones he loves. By teaching her, Anakin was supposed to learn to take responsibility and likewise how to let go of things when the proper time comes and Ahsoka becomes independent.

Ahsoka leaving the Jedi Order prematurely, and under such controversial circumstances, only tore open Anakin's wound of losing his mother, as he again lost someone that he cared for, which ultimately brought him closer to the dark side. So effectively, Yoda's plan resulted in the complete opposite, and what cemented Ahsoka's distrust was what Mace had said in a poor attempt at damage control. So now, with the fear of losing Padmé in ROTS, Anakin wants to do whatever he can to not lose the last person he loved like family.

Another important thing I want to address is the fact that another arc in TCW featured the...uh...death of Obi-Wan Kenobi. Well, not really. Obi-Wan went undercover as the Bounty Hunter that killed him to stop an assassination attempt on Palpatine...and not a single person told Anakin or Ahsoka. They went on trying to kill Obi-Wan thinking they were attacking the guy who killed Anakin's surrogate father. When he found out, they were not happy. The Council, namely Windu, were perfectly fine with cracking Anakin's trust in the Order just so they could get him to act convincingly.

So now, with these two contexts in place, Anakin's faith in the Order that reluctantly but kindly took him in is close to being shattered. What more could possibly happen?

"Take a seat, young Skywalker."

Ah yes. Now, again, without TCW, Mace is absolutely 100% justified in not giving Anakin the rank of master. Anakin was being a petulant brat with that turn-down, and even with TCW he came off as petulant.

But within canon material surrounding the film, as well as Lucas and Filoni's emphasis on Anakin's motivations, it's much more complicated. Outside of Matt Stover's novelization revealing that Anakin actually has no vote on the Council AT ALL (if he doesn't have a vote, then why bother even putting him in a seat), there's this thing about that scene that I had suspected upon a rewatch of ROTS that was hinted at further in an early episode of TCW...and then outright confirmed by the novelization (a novelization that was based on a diagnostic draft of ROTS). The scene below is shortly before Anakin talks with Yoda.

"The Jedi Temple also contained the archives, the vast library that encompassed the Order's entire twenty-five millennia of existence: everything from the widest-ranging cosmographical surveys to the intimate journals of a billion Jedi Knights. It was there Anakin hoped to find everything that was known about prophetic dreams-and everything that was known about preventing these prophecies from coming to pass.

His only problem was that the deepest secrets of the greatest Masters of the Force were stored in restricted holocrons...access to these holocrons was denied to all but Jedi Masters.

And he couldn't exactly explain to the Archives Master why he wanted them."

So yeah. The reason Anakin desperately wanted the rank of master was because he was hoping that the Restricted Section of the Jedi Libraries could have answers, and only Masters on the Jedi Council are actually allowed access to this collection of Holocrons. Without the promotion, he was forced to look for other methods, leading him to the Darth Plagueis parable. 

With that idea in place, Anakin's faith in the council was just shattered. This lack of tact (they never bothered explaining why Anakin didn't get the ranking) makes it the second time they played a part in leaving someone Anakin loved to die (technically the third based on how Obi-Wan was dismissive of Anakin's visions of his mother). 

Okay; back to the movie: Anakin realizes he's embarrassed himself and he kindly apologizes for his impulsiveness. Then they ask him to spy on the Chancellor, which would make him more mad as he realizes the only reason the Council even agreed to his seating was because they wanted to take advantage of Anakin's emotional connections (in the same way they were taking advantage of Padmé to spy on Rush Clovis) to Palpatine. The fact that Windu even agreed to this while still saying how dangerous it is putting them together makes him look like an idiot, like he knows the consequences of emotionally manipulating Anakin (which at this point happened three times in TCW, counting both times with Rush Clovis) but is still going ahead with it.

Now we get to the atomization of Anakin's faith in the council...and this may or may not be where my argument falls apart. Feel free to agree or disagree.

In the prelude to the Opera scene, we have Palpatine telling Anakin about Grievous's whereabouts. Anakin seems elated: "At last. We'll be able to capture that monster and end this war." Palpatine responds by saying "I would worry about the collective wisdom of the Council if they didn't select you for this assignment. You're the best choice, by far." Now, obviously the intent of the scene is to make Anakin more envious of higher responsibility, and that is how George intended it, but I don't see it that way. Again, based on TCW, we know Obi-Wan has vastly more experience in fighting Grievous, and Anakin only met him once face-to-face in the entire three year war, so based on what we know from TCW, Anakin wouldn't want to fight Grievous on his own, as he wouldn't stand a chance like Obi-Wan would. The way Hayden had acted the scene is suggestive of another thing: that he's uncomfortable with fighting the General, but Palpatine's theory is intriguing to him. He wants to find out just how much faith the Jedi actually have in him on the Council. And the very next scene answers that:

"The Chancellor has requested...that I lead the campaign."

"The Council will make up its own mind on who is to go. Not the Chancellor."

I've always felt that little pause from Anakin is him contemplating what he's about to say, as my theory says that he never agreed with the idea of going to fight Grievous. He even nods slightly when they pick Obi-Wan. And when the camera goes back to Anakin's silence, that is when his faith was atomized. The Council never trusted him, and they never counted his ideas to begin with. They only put him on board for their own selfish advantages.

But more on that, based on what TCW tells us, this is absolutely hypocritical. Mace Windu, who once blindly heeded the words of the Senate to expel Anakin's padawan, is now rejecting any involvement from the Senate himself. Of course, it comes off as him learning from his mistakes with Ahsoka, but by then the damage is done. Anakin's faith is in a trillion tiny pieces because of a supposed double standard.

But essentially, Anakin has been doxed by Windu and the Council's hypocrisy for way too long. Any more hypocrisy is going to completely turn him to the dark--

"He's too dangerous to be kept alive!"

"It's not the Jedi Way! He must live! I need him!"

Again, I understand that Mace is trying to kill a SITH LORD, and he needs to be killed because there's no way around it, but think about what Anakin has gone through so far. Windu has turned his back to Anakin's faith and emotional instability countless times. He pushed for the Council's compliance with Ahsoka's expulsion. He went ahead with keeping Anakin in the dark about Obi-Wan being alive. And now, when Anakin has tried upholding the Jedi way after he himself broke it (he knows that it was a mistake), Mace says the same words the Sith Lord said. Mace is non-complacent at that point, and moves ahead despite Anakin's protests. It's at that point, that thanks to all the things Mace and the Council have done to open Anakin's emotional wounds, come swirling back to Anakin as he cuts off his hand. For all the crap Windu put him through. Mace definitely deserved it.

But again, that does not put Anakin on the right side. Let's work backwards now. Right there was an opportunity to kill the Sith. Kill the Sith, and balance between the Light and Dark Side is restored. Anakin may have enough emotional justification for his fall, but his mistake in not letting Windu go through with it...cost them 25 years of peace. Anakin is definitely in the wrong here. No excuse for it. Just as he was wrong for arrogantly demanding to be a master, just as he was wrong for not being open with Obi-Wan despite Obi-Wan actually having the same dilemma not long ago with the late Duchess Satine, just as he was wrong for rejecting Yoda's actually sound advice (even if it was harshly worded), and just as he was wrong for being complacent with Palpatine after his long-time mentor was revealed to be THE Sith Lord.

But...to Anakin's credit...he acknowledges this.

"What have I done?!"

Anakin knows that he f***ed up. The chance to restore balance is gone now. He can't bring himself to kill Palpatine because there's no way out now. He's complacent in the murder of the Jedi's most powerful warrior. All he can do now is salvage what he has...but Palpatine only draws him further to becoming a monster. 

Okay, I hope I made sense in all that. I know there will be tons of holes in my logic already, but I hope my point comes across better. Without the Clone Wars, Mace Windu is innocent. With the Clone Wars, Windu is, or at least feels, a lot more culpable than before. Retcons, yes, but it is L-Canon.

IMHO, Anakin Skywalker becomes Darth Vader via, believe it or not, MENTAL ILLNESS: etymologically based, he succumbed to his own "evil mind," just like people in the real world do far too often, for reasons both physical and psychological.

Funny, I don't recall that happening.

What actually happened was:

- Ahsoka was framed for a crime and put under arrest.
- Instead of following procedure or making her case and/or seek help, she escaped from captivity, thus committing sedition.
- She didn't trust anyone, not even the Jedi (who were not even aware of what happened to her).
- Due to the escalation of her escape and pursuit, the military took jurisdiction over things.
- When captured, the Jedi were forced to acknowledge the sedition she committed, and therefore barred her from the Order.
- When she was eventually cleared in court, the Jedi Council did apologize to her. Your quote of Mace Windu is one among the others the Council as a whole were saying to her.

I'm still not sure what this has to do with Mace's alleged involvement in Anakin's fall.


Why would he say sorry? Sorry for what? For defending himself from Jango who was adamant in murdering him? He killed him in battle and while defending himself from his attacks. He doesn't have to apologize for anything, and Boba is the one who committed crimes that he will need to pay for, even if he doesn't want to, which is what Mace basically tells him.

And if I recall correctly, Filoni did want that specific scene, and Mace's dialogue, to be more complete instead of a rushed sentence. But there was no time.


Stoicism is not coldness.


Where does that even come from? How does Windu's stoicism make him corrupt or uncompassionate?


Where? How?


That's a giant non sequitur.

You might as well say "I don't like Windu's sternness and stoicism, so I'm going to blame him for Anakin's failure to follow the Jedi way and let go of fear, greed and attachment and be selfless."

The fact is that Mace (or any other Jedi) had no involvement in Anakin's fall. Anakin fell due to his inability to let go. Something he was trained to do as a Jedi but that he chooses to not do.

Lucas time and time again comments on this:

"This is obviously a very pivotal scene for Anakin because this is reuniting with his mother and his youth and, at the same time, dealing with his inability to let go of his emotions and allow himself to accept the inevitable. The fact that everything must change and that things come and go through his life and that he can’t hold on to things, which is a basic Jedi philosophy that he’s unwilling to accept emotionally. And the reason that is, is because he was raised by his mother rather than by the Jedi.
If he’d have been taken in his first year and started to study to be a Jedi, he wouldn’t have this particular connection as strong as it is and he’d have been trained to love people but not to become attached to them. But he has become attached to his mother and he will become attached to Padmé, and these things are, for a Jedi, who needs to have a clear mind and not be influenced by threats to their attachments, a dangerous situation. And it feeds into fear of losing things, which feeds into greed, wanting to keep things and wanting to keep his possessions and things that he should be letting go of. His fear of losing her turns to anger at losing her, which ultimately turns to revenge and wiping out the village."

"The core issue, ultimately, is greed, possessiveness—the inability to let go. Not only to hold on to material things, which is greed, but to hold on to life, to the people you love—to not accept the reality of life's passages and changes, which is to say things come, things go. Everything changes. Anakin becomes emotionally attached to things, his mother, his wife. That's whe he falls--because he does not have the ability to let go."

For people to shift the blame to the Jedi is the opposite of what Lucas intends. Not only is it not corroborated by anything, but the Jedi way, as the Jedi instructed him and which the Jedi follow, is the path to his salvation. It's the solution to his problem. But because he refuses to let go, to follow the Jedi way, he makes a pact with the devil.

Firstly, thank you for the reply. Now for my inferior rebuttal.