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Post by Subtext Mining on Mar 9, 2023 19:05:06 GMT
...But after arriving on Coruscant, he also had a mentor who was secretly a Sith Lord, who knew how to manipulate people. ...However, in the hands of Palpatine, these natural, healthy traits could be molded and shaped into a sense of self-righteousness and entitlement. A great symbolic example of this is Anakin's Theme, which saunters along boyishly with an innocent, light-hearted melody. However, it's coda gets twisted into the Imperial March theme. As well as the Parade Theme at the end of Episode I, which is a light, joyous, childlike version of The Emperor's Theme. ...In short, if we can describe him as archetype, Anakin is the sentinel. He was born to protect and guard not to govern over others (power corrupts). Even as a child he did what he could to offer protection to Padmé, by carving for her a Japor Snippet which will bring her good fortune.
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Post by Subtext Mining on Mar 24, 2023 13:14:47 GMT
Anakin, despite being a slave, was a generous, good-natured child who was always able to make the most of what he had. But after arriving on Coruscant, he also had a mentor who was secretly a Sith Lord, who knew how to manipulate people. In Episode I we saw that besides being gifted in the Force, Anakin was basically like most other kids: lofty ambitions ("I wanna be the first one to see 'em all!") strong sense of identity (a person, not just a slave) pride ("I'm the only human that can do it.") a belief that Jedi can do whatever they want and strong bond with his mother. However, in the hands of Palpatine, these natural, healthy traits could be molded and shaped into a sense of self-righteousness and entitlement. And with flaws like that framing his constitution, Anakin was set up for a fall, so to speak. He was heading down a path that would not only collide with the Jedi values, but would likely come to a head in some volatile moment. Which would then create a hook with which Palpatine could pull him into the dark side. As a child, Anakin held innocent, natural traits that, in the hands of a manipulator, could be molded into a selfish disposition. Later, as a young man of about 19 years, we see he holds some thoughts, beliefs and ambitions such as: creating a system of government that "works", wanting his loved ones to not die, and disobeying his Jedi mandate to help his mother, which are understandable and sympathetic, but ultimately unrealistic, and teetering precariously on a border of being either beneficial or detrimental if acted upon. Then, taking into account he is a Jedi with a lot of power, he is definitely riding on a razor's edge. As we know, when he did find his mother and held her as she died, his response was the worst possible, though still in some ways a little relatable. Likewise, I think his speech about government in the picnic scene is supposed to be something that most people would more or less agree with in some part of their mind, as seems reasonable enough. But as Padmé explained, it's not always so simple, and that it wavers too perilously close to dictatorship. His naïvetés combined with his unwillingness to accept change are normal enough human qualities, but as one strong in the force with a secretly evil mentor stroking his ambitious ego, we have what could be a recipe for disaster.
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Post by tonyg on Mar 24, 2023 14:40:29 GMT
Anakin, despite being a slave, was a generous, good-natured child who was always able to make the most of what he had. But after arriving on Coruscant, he also had a mentor who was secretly a Sith Lord, who knew how to manipulate people. In Episode I we saw that besides being gifted in the Force, Anakin was basically like most other kids: lofty ambitions ("I wanna be the first one to see 'em all!") strong sense of identity (a person, not just a slave) pride ("I'm the only human that can do it.") a belief that Jedi can do whatever they want and strong bond with his mother. However, in the hands of Palpatine, these natural, healthy traits could be molded and shaped into a sense of self-righteousness and entitlement. And with flaws like that framing his constitution, Anakin was set up for a fall, so to speak. He was heading down a path that would not only collide with the Jedi values, but would likely come to a head in some volatile moment. Which would then create a hook with which Palpatine could pull him into the dark side. As a child, Anakin held innocent, natural traits that, in the hands of a manipulator, could be molded into a selfish disposition. Later, as a young man of about 19 years, we see he holds some thoughts, beliefs and ambitions such as: creating a system of government that "works", wanting his loved ones to not die, and disobeying his Jedi mandate to help his mother, which are understandable and sympathetic, but ultimately unrealistic, and teetering precariously on a border of being either beneficial or detrimental if acted upon. Then, taking into account he is a Jedi with a lot of power, he is definitely riding on a razor's edge. As we know, when he did find his mother and held her as she died, his response was the worst possible, though still in some ways a little relatable. Likewise, I think his speech about government in the picnic scene is supposed to be something most people would more or less agree with in some part of their mind. But as Padmé explained, it's not always so simple, and that it wavers too perilously close to dictatorship. As we already commented (indirectly)in the thread of the Historical References, Anakin has very pragmatic, I would say soldier-like attitude towards the political system. To put it simple, it has to work, indeed to be effective. So, people must agree on something that is common sense, after all. Even Padme, who is politician (i.e. she knows the system from inside) agrees completely that this is the final purpose. But is not so easy to apply the main principle in practice (people don't always agree). Anakin impatienty says that they should be made to. From a certain point of view he is right: sometimes if the mentioned people waste time in disagreement then horrors and death can happen and this is exactly the case of Naboo crisis of Episode 1. In the end the disagreement could lead to a stale point where no one can actually do something that would have a positive effect and this is the problem of the vote of emergency powers later in AOTC. In a a way, the Republic follows Anakin's approach to the problem and yes, as Padme predicted this indeed led to a dictatorship in the end. So the trick is to balance between effectiveness of the decisions (the extreme effectiveness leads to a dictatorship because the fewer people participate in the key decisions, the faster such are taken) and the consensus that is the guarantee of participation of the whole community (the other extreme means no effectiveness, i.e. the decision couldn't be taken at all). So my point is that Anakin is not someone who love dictatorships or tends to accept them in general, but he is pragmatic (he wants results) and he is also impatient (these results should be fast). This leads to justification (!) of the dictatorship that should be made, you know, "for a greater good". This is more or less "the mechanism" that does the trick and not the oversimplification that some viewers tend to apply watching the picnic scene: look at this one, he is authoritarian, he is already on Vader's route. As Subtext Mining said, is not that simple
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Post by Subtext Mining on Mar 25, 2023 14:56:03 GMT
Good point, in their service to the Galaxy, the government needs to find balance, between effectiveness and democracy, just like Anakin needs to find his own inner balance between selflessness and selfishness.
It's unfortunate that the picnic scene is one of the most commonly denigrated, because it conveys so much and it's done so economically: the developing dynamic between Anakin and Padmé, Anakin's views and the subtext of Palpatine's influence on them, as well as foreshadowing, as Tony said, of not only Ankin but also the Republic. And Padmé's reaction to Anakin's views says it all. He holds some precarious views, but you hope he will chose to do the right thing when it counts. But as we know, just a little bit later, both Anakin and the Senate cross a line that will lead to their eventual downfall. But that's no reason to give up hope on them.
And one thing I think TCW did well was showcasing Anakin's views on the Senate and the Jedi Council, specifically in their tendency towards procedure and protocol. Anakin felt policies only held the Jedi back from accomplishing what was necessary and right, which, yes, is also displayed well in the first act of AotC. Anakin wants to cut through the dilemmas and the red tape and just "do it". He is goal oriented but also impatient, and as Yoda says, spontaneous and an expert at disobeying the Council. But can Anakin always use these traits of his in a balanced way for the needs of the many?
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Post by Subtext Mining on Apr 10, 2023 15:50:53 GMT
It's very interesting that Anakin and his mother seem to have become slaves when he was about three, he thinks. It's intersting because the self-centered ways in which Anakin is led by in Episodes II and III are normal and natural for toddlers. It's as if he just never outgrew those behaviors from that age, or more accurately regressed to them, which is a classic byproduct of trauma, which he would've incurred when being thrown into the life of a slave at age 3-4.
In TPM, at age 9-10, he knows nothing of greed, and his Jedi training provided him the opportunity to find and maintain balance within himself, but he just never wanted to release his clingings, while also wanting to avoid the pain and fear that can come with them, and the personal responsibility of overcoming them.
Basically, as a young man, when faced with the painful and desperate moments, I think it's his inner three-year-old reacting... in some ways, in a lot of ways.
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Apr 11, 2023 16:00:46 GMT
I think it's interesting indeed how Anakin seems more well-adjusted as a child, despite his difficult upbringing, than he does as a young adult with the Jedi. It might seem odd at first glance, but I think Lucas really did his homework (he studied child psychology books to prepare writing the PT), because often childhood trauma doesn't take full effect until later in life, around the teens. I personally relate to Anakin in this regard very much. As a child, Anakin was ahead of his peers in maturity and the amount of responsibility he had, working at Watto's shop and even building a droid to help his mom. He was the man of the house at an early age. It's like his childish side came out later, when he had difficulty adjusting to the Jedi way of life. Anakin clearly had a dysfunctional relationship with authority figures, clashing with the Jedi rules, while admiring strong authoritarian qualities in Palpatine. He's a very well realized character in many ways.
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Post by Subtext Mining on Apr 12, 2023 20:31:08 GMT
Yes, Anakin had to face a lot of harsh, austere circumstances at a very young age. And while for babies/toddlers and their caregivers to form attachments with each other is healthy and expected, one would imagine being thrown into a slave's life at such an early age would cause the child to do so all the more. In this terrifying, tumultuous new world, Anakin's mother was his only foundation of stability and comfort. She loved him a lot and raised him well, despite their conditions. It stands to reason that Anakin would have such a predisposition for intense attachments to a central source of warmth and caring, and a deeply-seated unwillingness to eschew them. I mentioned in the Scene Analysis thread last year how Padmé slid right into this role for Anakin after leaving Tatooine. I think back to the HelloGreedo video where I think it seems like he might be asking if Anakin was just born with the propensity to cling relentlessly to attachments; if he was destined to fall. I would say of course he wasn't destined to fall. Lucas wanted to make a cautionary tale we can learn from by watching the mistakes the characters made and the unfortunate conditions they found themselves in. He wanted to depict how a good person goes bad. And I think a big part of the root of Anakin's fall is the tragic situation he found himself in as a slave and the effect it had on his psyche. I feel the importance of Anakin being a child slave can't be overstated. I also want to touch on something briefly discussed in the Anakin's Fall thread a few years ago about his thrill seeking. Yes, he's a skilled pilot, young and therefore naturally reckless, but I also think this tendency of his, as we see in the pursuit of Zam, also serves as a distraction from his anxieties. It certainly establishes a lot of layered things about Anakin, and I think one is his avoidance of his uncomfortable feelings, and his readiness to recklessly stray outside the prescribed confines of the Jedi norms to accomplish his goals. This particular goal of course was to save Padmé by finding her would-be assassin and who he/she is working for. And remember, when he was young, he had very little to no control over most aspects of his life, but when he was flying pods he finally had one thing he could control. He could finally affect things outside of himself and make a difference. It's no wonder his love for danger and risk carried over into his youth and young adulthood. same thing goes with fixing things. Anyways, what you resist persists. And when Anakin's mother was taken from him by the Tuskens, all that bottled anxiety erupted out. And as we know, he wanted to avoid the pain of losing another loved one, so he vowed to learn the power to stop death in a bid for a sense of control and the ultimate ability to fix things. He latched on to Padmé as his center, and when he was afraid she was going to die, he recklessly strayed into Sith promises, selling his soul and quickly losing everything he'd tried to save.
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Post by Subtext Mining on Apr 14, 2023 14:50:12 GMT
Just a few hours after I posted ^ that, an interesting philosophy youtube channel I watch sometimes posted this video about the paradox of trying to control the uncontrollable. I find it to be a useful illustration of Anakin's plight, and of the concepts the Jedi were trying to instill in him. m.youtube.com/watch?v=koo59KK43YA&t=627s
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Post by Subtext Mining on Apr 27, 2023 11:47:36 GMT
In this 2002 interview, Natalie Portman brought up a complex, interesting question to ponder. "If evil can love, then what is evil, if love is what makes you human? And then, is someone who is evil, human still?" Which I paraphrase as, "If love is what makes us human, and if evil is inhuman, can someone who loves be evil?" I think the answer is tricky, but essentially, not at the same time. Using Anakin as an example, he loved, yes, and was very much like most other people, but at some point he went too far. Or as Lucas said, "he loveth too much." It seems to me, because of his tumultuous, unpredictable slave life, the gravitational pull to a secure, caring, central figure was very strong in him. And when he became a Jedi, he chose not to train himself to let go of that. He wanted to be a Jedi but also keep the regular-person aspects he wanted. He wanted to keep his attachments but avoid the pain and fear that can come with them. So eventually, through various events and the ensuing consequences, his propensity towards connection was corrupted into possession. And with that Palpatine was able to maneuver him into doing evil for a "justified good" (save the Republic and Padmé). Then once the dark deeds got him stuck in the Sith greed/power cycle he craved more and started doing evil for the sake of evil (executing Separatists with pleasure). So with Anakin, I think when he committed himself to evil, the capacity for love was buried deep and forgotten. And when Luke came along it began to be rekindled. Later when Luke displayed unconditional love and compassion, Anakin came back to his un-corrupted self and turned away from evil. So it's like a pendulum, or like sand in an hour glass. Both potentials are there, but the stronger one side, the more the other diminishes. And I think as the viewers watch Episodes IV-VI, they wonder if there's any humanity left in Vader.
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Post by Somny on Apr 27, 2023 17:19:05 GMT
In this 2002 interview, Natalie Portman brought up a complex, interesting question to ponder. "If evil can love, then what is evil, if love is what makes you human? And then, is someone who is evil, human still?" Which I paraphrase as, "If love is what makes us human, and if evil is inhuman, can someone who loves be evil?" I think the answer is tricky, but essentially, not at the same time. Using Anakin as an example, he loved, yes, and was very much like most other people, but at some point he went too far. Or as Lucas said, "he loveth too much." It seems to me, because of his tumultuous, unpredictable slave life, the gravitational pull to a secure, caring, central figure was very strong in him. And when he became a Jedi, he chose not to train himself to let go of that. He wanted to be a Jedi but also keep the regular-person aspects he wanted. He wanted to keep his attachments but avoid the pain and fear that can come with them. So eventually, through various events and the ensuing consequences, his propensity towards connection was corrupted into possession. And with that Palpatine was able to maneuver him into doing evil for a "justified good" (save the Republic and Padmé). Then once the dark deeds got him stuck in the Sith greed/power cycle he craved more and started doing evil for the sake of evil (executing Separatists with pleasure). So with Anakin, I think when he committed himself to evil, the capacity for love was buried deep and forgotten. And when Luke came along it began to be rekindled. Later when Luke displayed unconditional love and compassion, Anakin came back to his un-corrupted self and turned away from evil. So it's like a pendulum, or like sand in an hour glass. Both potentials are there, but the stronger one side, the more the other diminishes. And I think as the viewers watch Episodes IV-VI, they wonder if there's any humanity left in Vader. Impressive analytical acrobatics and a great invocation of the key "he loveth too much" quote from GL. I'm particularly fond of it. My view on Anakin (not his later persona Darth Vader) is relatively simple. His character basically illustrates that love has a positive relationship with hate (and thus, evil). In other words, the more you love someone or something, the more liable you'll be to control and possess them or it to devastating, anti-social ends. The PT, cloaked as it is in the Jedi philosophy of austerity and detachment, thusly conveys a strikingly anti-Western, anti-romantic idea by modern cinema standards in casting doubt on traditional storybook notions of heroism and love (see Obi-Wan's wary, doubtful look during TPM's ecstatic conclusion) while embracing some share of institutional frigidity ("You come from a warm planet, Ani. A little too warm for my taste. Space is cold."). This side of the equation has always appealed to me.
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Post by Subtext Mining on Apr 29, 2023 9:12:03 GMT
Yeah, beneath every virtue lies brewing it's opposite ready to emerge if things don't go one's way. I believe this is why Lucas put such an emphasis on equanimity and compassion in this saga. And in a similar vein, why Jung said man's most important task is to make the unconscious conscious; to know yourself. Because often when one acts out, they don't even realize it, at least not why. Smittysgelato wrote up a great piece in relation to this: Anakin's Fall: Enantiodromia & The Prison of the Mind
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Post by Subtext Mining on Jun 9, 2023 11:06:43 GMT
Anakin and his mother loved each other as much as any mother and son could. They had a strong bond, which provided Anakin with love and security and freedom to be a child, amidst an unpredictable, tumultuous slave life. But when his destiny came along, he had to follow it. However, a Jedi's life is not an easy life, and he was going to have to adapt accordingly, and due to a Jedi's great responsibilities, make some sacrifices.
During Anakin's test, he had a loss of innocence; hearing that his natural fear of losing his mother is something that could lead to bad things*. Through no direct fault of either the Jedi or Anakin, he was in some ways forced/forced himself to grow up too fast. As in, in becoming a Jedi, missing his mother and fearing to lose her was something he needed to process through and eventually let go of. However, Anakin did not want to do that, he did not want to sever his connection with her. And consequently, wanting to keep her in his heart, yet not being able to have any contact with her, created a lot of anxiety, loneliness and helplessness within him. Difficult emotions which anyone would want to avoid, resist and bury, especially if your elders are expecting you to phase the root source out.
And the stronger the love, the stronger the pain when it's not around. And as a Jedi, Anakin decided he had to bury his pain that came from missing his mother. But the stronger the pain the the harder you have to push it down which means the stronger the pressure cooker. He relegated that part of himself, the connection with his mother, or at least the fear of losing her, to the hidden shadow corners of his psyche. So when the worst happened all those pent up emotions became rage which erupted out, and there he tasted the potencies of the dark side. In essence, Anakin began his decline to the dark side because of his love, but saved himself because of it as well.
*"Things have become much more complicated."
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Post by Subtext Mining on Jun 19, 2023 10:12:56 GMT
The narrative importance of Ani's pod.As Ani's slave owner, Watto forbid him from owning his own pod racer. Anakin loved speed and loved building things, so he just couldn't resist putting together his own pod, at home, in secret, unbeknownst to Watto. And not only that, eventually the day came when his secret pod was put to noble use. He met some friendly stranded travelers who were in urgent need of help, and the only way to help them was to use Watto's greed as a tool and bet on Ani's ability to win a race. By winning the race in his own pod, Ani not only helped his friends fix the heart of their ship, but also win his own freedom. As innocent and unharmful as his secret pod was, these events reinforced within Anakin the idea that keeping things you like and want secret is not only necessary but good. So ten years later when he and Padmé fell in love and got married, Anakin, as a Jedi, decided they would keep their marriage a secret. And, as he gradually gave in to his own greed and (over)confidence in coming out of dangerous risks unscathed, the rest is history...
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Post by stampidhd280pro on Jun 19, 2023 12:35:59 GMT
The narrative importance of Ani's pod.As Ani's slave owner, Watto forbid him from owning his own pod racer. Anakin loved speed and loved building things, so he just couldn't resist putting together his own pod, at home, in secret, unbeknownst to Watto. And not only that, eventually the day came when his secret pod was put to noble use. He met some friendly stranded travelers who were in urgent need of help, and the only way to help them was to use Watto's greed as a tool and bet on Ani's ability to win a race. By winning the race in his own pod, Ani not only helped his friends fix the heart of their ship, but also win his own freedom. As innocent and unharmful as his secret pod was, these events reinforced within Anakin the idea that keeping things you like and want secret is not only necessary but good. So ten years later when he and Padmé fell in love and got married, Anakin, as a Jedi, decided they would keep their marriage a secret. And, as he gradually gave in to his own greed and (over)confidence in coming out of dangerous risks unscathed, the rest is history... Secrets is kind of the big theme of the prequels isnt it?
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Post by Subtext Mining on Mar 18, 2024 0:17:19 GMT
I've seen the TPM trailer with Darth Maul's narration before, but for some reason I just heard the ones with Padmé and with Anakin for the first time, and boy... Here's Padmé's. There are things I cannot do. I cannot watch while people suffer. I cannot sit when something must be done. I cannot judge those who are different. There are things I cannot do: Run, hide, ignore. There are things I cannot do, but there are certainly things I will do. And Anakins. What if dreams came true? And you could be who you wanted to be, you could do what you wanted to do, and you could help who you wanted to help. What if dreams came true, and the world opened up, and you were never, ever afraid? What if dreams came true? But dreams do come true, don’t they? These get me right in the GL awesomeness. Padmé's is great because, yeah, it's a noble sentiment, especially for a bold young queen. But put those words in the Jedi's mouths when the war started... or the Senate when Palpatine needed emergency powers, or Anakin when he thought his wife was gonna die. And Anakin's is great for similar reasons. It's a wonderful, cute, inspiring thing for an innocent kid to say. But have him say that again when he's older and has developed a sense of entitlement, and doesn't want a certain dream to come true. Starting at 6:27 youtu.be/0ega1FR1C8I?si=tM4elKRjOWDDaZJs
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Post by Somny on Mar 18, 2024 1:34:38 GMT
I've seen the TPM trailer with Darth Maul's narration before, but for some reason I just heard the ones with Padmé and with Anakin for the first time, and boy... Here's Padmé's. There are things I cannot do. I cannot watch while people suffer. I cannot sit when something must be done. I cannot judge those who are different. There are things I cannot do: Run, hide, ignore. There are things I cannot do, but there are certainly things I will do. And Anakins. What if dreams came true? And you could be who you wanted to be, you could do what you wanted to do, and you could help who you wanted to help. What if dreams came true, and the world opened up, and you were never, ever afraid? What if dreams came true? But dreams do come true, don’t they? These get me right in the GL awesomeness. Padmé's is great because, yeah, it's a noble sentiment, especially for a bold young queen. But put those words in the Jedi's mouths when the war started... or the Senate when Palpatine needed emergency powers, or Anakin when he thought his wife was gonna die. And Anakin's is great for similar reasons. It's a wonderful, cute, inspiring thing for an innocent kid to say. But have him say that again when he's older and has developed a sense of entitlement, and doesn't want a certain dream to come true. Starting at 6:27 youtu.be/0ega1FR1C8I?si=tM4elKRjOWDDaZJsAbout damn time! I watched these incredible tone poems religiously on the OS via Apple Quicktime in the months following TPM's release in 1999. It's how I got my fix of the film before the VHS release early the next year. My favorites are "One Destiny" (Qui-Gon's) and "Stand Alone" (Obi-Wan's). It's a shame they never aired on television due to promotional oversaturation (or so it's been said t'was the reason).
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Mar 18, 2024 15:01:44 GMT
"We're a generation of men raised by women. I'm wondering if another woman is really the answer we need."
I was thinking about Fight Club recently, and when this quote crossed my mind, I thought of Anakin. It's interesting to me how prescient the prequel trilogy and especially the psychology of its central character can be if read through a prism like this. Anakin was raised by a single mother with no real father. In many ways, after losing his mother, he was looking to recreate that relationship with Padme later in his life. Anakin learned, through his tragic experiences, an unhealthy form of attachment. He didn't accept that things would change in life, and thus practiced possessive love over others. The psychological profile of Anakin is precisely the one that Tyler Durden talks about in Fight Club. Anakin, above all else, needed a father. First, he had a father figure in Watto, his slave owner, a very unhealthy relationship, no doubt contributing to his habit of wanting to have possession of people. Qui-Gon seemed like the ideal father figure for him, but he lost him, and got stuck with Obi-Wan instead. Obi-Wan was more of an elder brother than a father. This left an opening for Palpatine to manipulate Anakin as a two-faced substitute father. And most of all, Anakin was not ready for a committed relationship with a woman. He was still scarred and traumatized by the loss of his mother. He was impatient and immature. Shmi was a great and loving mother, who always wanted the best for her son, and surely did the best she could in her circumstances, but the lack of a true father is ultimately what doomed Anakin. When he says to Obi-Wan in AotC, "You're the closest thing I have to a father," it breaks my heart a little every time.
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