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Post by Alexrd on Mar 14, 2020 10:40:52 GMT
Remember how Anakin experienced the thrill (albeit the dangerous thrill) of racing pods as a slave child? See his obvious joy and enthusiasm when piloting the airspeeder when he and Obi-Wan chase after Zam? Or what he says to Padme later on: "Life seems so much simpler when you're fixing things." The Jedi took away his soul. That's pleasure, not joy. The joy is in helping others, fixing things, with no thought of reward, which is basically what Jedi do. The Lucas speech you cited makes that distinction very clear. Something he also has on his old notes regarding the Force: The Jedi didn't take away his soul. The Jedi gave him a life of purpose, something he initially accepted but ended up throwing away for giving into and pursuing his selfish desires. |
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Post by Cryogenic on Mar 15, 2020 1:28:40 GMT
Remember how Anakin experienced the thrill (albeit the dangerous thrill) of racing pods as a slave child? See his obvious joy and enthusiasm when piloting the airspeeder when he and Obi-Wan chase after Zam? Or what he says to Padme later on: "Life seems so much simpler when you're fixing things." The Jedi took away his soul. That's pleasure, not joy. The joy is in helping others, fixing things, with no thought of reward, which is basically what Jedi do. The Lucas speech you cited makes that distinction very clear. Yes. Lucas does draw a clear distinction. However, Anakin is still young and a touch immature, and it's a bit silly to deny a teenager his or her thrills. Moreover, it can be argued that he needs to experience some pleasure, as compensation for the relatively tough and joyless life he leads the rest of the time. It's also interesting that the term joyriding is used to describe people driving recklessly. It was also Anakin's skills as a daring podracer pilot that helped Qui-Gon and Amidala complete their mission of reaching Coruscant, and it was Anakin proving his mettle in that same race that was key to Qui-Gon securing Anakin's freedom. So some criticism of the Jedi is obliquely implied with Anakin's embrace of high-speed sensualism. They accept these things, until they don't. Even Obi-Wan recklessly jumps out of a high-rise window, necessitating some quick thinking and embrace of his adrenal instincts on Anakin's part. Even the Jedi hypocritically bend their own rules when they decide to accept Anakin at his advanced age into their ranks, or when they later get him to spy on Palpatine. So it's a complex tapestry. At the very least, they tamped down his soul and his personal sense of ambition. And Obi-Wan clearly was unable to relate to Anakin enough to empathise with his sleeping difficulties, which we learn are the result of strange dreams that have a mystical orientation. It is obvious they didn't quite know what to do with a person as naturally skilled as Anakin, and they failed to integrate his abilities and his sense of self-worth correctly into their organisation -- for which they paid a hefty price. |
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Post by Alexrd on Mar 15, 2020 11:37:48 GMT
Yes. Lucas does draw a clear distinction. However, Anakin is still young and a touch immature, and it's a bit silly to deny a teenager his or her thrills. How are they denying it? If he happens to feel a thrill while doing what he's supposed to, so be it. Nobody is going to admonish him for it. Something else altogether is pursuing the thrill, the pleasure, which leads to a never ending spiral of selfishness and insatiability. I'd argue that silly would be to indulge the whims a teenager. He chose a path that promotes selflessness and discipline. I mean, we were all teenagers. It was still our parent's job to lecture us and admonish us on our foolishness and stupidity. And even though we might have been blind by our arrogance then, once we got older we recognize that they were right. Moreover, it can be argued that he needs to experience some pleasure, as compensation for the relatively tough and joyless life he leads the rest of the time. It's also interesting that the term joyriding is used to describe people driving recklessly. It was also Anakin's skills as a daring podracer pilot that helped Qui-Gon and Amidala complete their mission of reaching Coruscant, and it was Anakin proving his mettle in that same race that was key to Qui-Gon securing Anakin's freedom. So some criticism of the Jedi is obliquely implied with Anakin's embrace of high-speed sensualism. They accept these things, until they don't. Even Obi-Wan recklessly jumps out of a high-rise window, necessitating some quick thinking and embrace of his adrenal instincts on Anakin's part. That's not a very fair comparison. Even though Anakin loves to race, he doesn't race in the Boonta Eve for the pleasure it. He races in order to help a group of people in need. He says as much. It's a selfless act. "He gives without any thought of reward."Likewise, Obi-Wan doesn't jump out of the window for the thrill of it. He jumps out of instinct. He's working with Anakin, he knows he's not alone. Obi-Wan, or the Jedi, don't criticize Anakin for following his instincts. They criticize him for ignoring reason and wisdom. Even the Jedi hypocritically bend their own rules when they decide to accept Anakin at his advanced age into their ranks, or when they later get him to spy on Palpatine. Yoda still disagreed with the Council's decision. As for spying on Palpatine, as Obi-Wan said, their allegiance is to the senate, not to it's leader. At the very least, they tamped down his soul and his personal sense of ambition. Anakin, as a Jedi, should let go of ambition. Ambition is selfishness. And Obi-Wan clearly was unable to relate to Anakin enough to empathise with his sleeping difficulties, which we learn are the result of strange dreams that have a mystical orientation. It is obvious they didn't quite know what to do with a person as naturally skilled as Anakin, and they failed to integrate his abilities and his sense of self-worth correctly into their organisation -- for which they paid a hefty price. I don't see how. Obi-Wan understands Anakin's concern for his mother. What he doesn't do, nor he should do, is to encourage him to act on his fears and attachment. That's not a failure on Obi-Wan's part. As for the dreams being premonitions, Anakin didn't know that and the Jedi couldn't guess that either. We, and Anakin, came to learn that they were premonitions later on. But what Anakin should do doesn't change: he should let go of his fear of loss. Yoda explains as much when Anakin goes to him in ROTS. As for the rest, Anakin didn't have integration problems. The Jedi recognized his skills and abilities, as they should. But there's nothing more beyond that. It's up to Anakin to behave like a Jedi (something he knows he should do). He received the counsel, knowledge and instruction. |
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Post by mikeximus on Mar 16, 2020 0:56:08 GMT
HG is again one of those people that I talked about either in this thread or another where we have people that can't seem to separate their fantasy of becoming a Jedi with what being a Jedi actually means. Fans want to be a Jedi, but, they also want to keep their real world personas as well. They want the cool powers, but, they want to be married as well. They want the heroism, but, not the sacrifice. I don't know, I may be off the mark here, but aren't you basically describing Anakin? Yes, and that is the problem. Anakin is a Jedi and strong in the Force, but what helps make him relatable to us is that he's also got one foot in the "normal person" world. Correct, but we are not supposed to be relating to the petulant, self-absorbed, power hungry side of Anakin. We are not supposed to be relating to the aspect of Anakin that blames everyone else for his shortcomings, and expects everyone around him to change how they interact with his world to make him happy. As Lucas has said before, he started with Anakin as a child for a reason. Those qualities are the things we should relate too when it comes to Anakin. Once again, if Anakin felt he would have been happier being married, than that is fine, he had every right to pursue that. What he didn't have a right too was to break the rules of the Jedi Order, than blame them, when he proclaims that from his perspective the Jedi are Evil. Fans who feel the Jedi should have changed their rules in order to make Anakin happy are falling into the same trap that Anakin fell into. That their own greed for wanting everything comes first and foremost. In that mindset, than others are expected to change their ways in order to accommodate the greedy individual. So yes, there is a definite cross over between the mindset of certain fans and Anakin that, IMO, makes them fail to see why Anakin fell. Are you stating the difference between Anakin and the fans is that they want the Jedi to change the rules, but Anakin just broke them? Yes, that makes sense. No.. No one should have or should expect the Jedi to change their rules to accommodate Anakin (or themselves). Expecting the Jedi to change their rules to accommodate an individuals own needs is greed. No one is entitled to be a Jedi. Being a Jedi is not a right, it is a way of life that requires sacrifice. Anakin wanted the benefits of being a Jedi but, didn't want the sacrifice because he was greedy. This is why many in the fandom felt the Jedi were at fault. They want themselves want to be Anakin, they want the bebefits of being a Jedi, but, want the benefits of a regular life as well. Their fantasy is chattered when the life of a Jedi comes with sacrifices, so instead of understanding that they can't have it both ways, their reaction is to blame the Jedi. This is why no one can ever find a direct quote from Lucas putting the blame on the Jedi for Anakins fall. In fact we have at least 1 direct quote from Lucas saying that the reason Anakin fell is because he didn't listen to the Jedi. Are you stating the difference between Anakin and the fans is that they want the Jedi to change the rules, but Anakin just broke them? Yes, that makes sense. Another aspect to this is that rules are made to be both followed and broken. When a value/guideline hardens into a rule, and everyone is expected to ruthlessly adhere to it at all times, then you start running into problems. That isn't smart. That isn't living. That's a broken, repetitive, totalitarian, machine-based reality. It fails to deal with the dynamic frisson of the universe, and runs counter to Qui-Gon's enlightened emphasis on "The Living Force". Joseph Campbell probably put it best in his usual way. Some collated quotes: "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are . . . We must be willing to get rid of the life we've planned, so as to have the life that is waiting for us . . . A hero is someone who has given his or her life to something bigger than oneself . . . The goal of life is to make your heartbeat match the beat of the universe, to match your nature with Nature."That's all nice and poetic, however, we aren't talking about some totalitarian government that is oppressing it's people that have no other option than to break the rules. There is one very simple solution to Anakin's dilemma... He could have just left the Jedi Order. BOOM. Problem solved. Campbells own quote you posted speaks to the idea of serving something bigger than your own personal greed. Anakin could not do that. He was not willing to make the sacrifice to be a part of something bigger. He instead wanted the something bigger to bend to him. This is in stark contrast to Campbell's quote and what we all understand a Hero to be. Anakin was not willing to "give his or her life" for that something bigger, ie he was not willing to follow the Jedi rules. He wanted "his life" and he wanted the something bigger. George Lucas, of course, essentially humbled himself and became a "padawan", of sorts, to Joseph Campbell and his writings. Some years ago, clearly having actualised his passions and interests, he said the following: Time Index: 07:12"I think it's very important not to do what your peers think you should do, [nor to] do what your parents think you should do, [nor] your teachers -- or even [what] your culture thinks -- but do what's inside you."-- George Lucas (Video: George Lucas' Advice, Uploader: Colorado Flier, Date: Apr 5 2011)Lucas’ imperative at the end also echoes a famous remark made by Carl Jung: "He who looks outside dreams. He who looks inside awakens."Joseph Campbell also expressed similar sentiments repeatedly, perhaps best summed up in the following admonition: "Follow your bliss."The Jedi stymie Anakin in following his bliss -- in locating the true core of his inner potential. Better dead here den dead in da core.
Remember how Anakin experienced the thrill (albeit the dangerous thrill) of racing pods as a slave child? See his obvious joy and enthusiasm when piloting the airspeeder when he and Obi-Wan chase after Zam? Or what he says to Padme later on: "Life seems so much simpler when you're fixing things." The Jedi took away his soul. The problem here is that you really have to make unrealistic jumps of connection in order to try and tie what Lucas is saying to Anakin. First of all, let's Look at Lucas. Yes, Lucas's quote is good advice. However, he is clearly talking about his own experiences, most notable being with the movie studios. So lets look at that. Lucas did not like the rules set forth by the studios. He felt they "stymied" him. SO what did he do? He left the studio system. Lucas knew he could not work within the confines of the studio's so he left. Right? It wasn't his money being put up to fund these movies, so he was not entitled to break the rules. The first chance he got to get away from those rules, he left. He didn't stick around like a petulant child complaining about how unfair the rules were. He knew his "bliss" was un-achievable under the rules of the studio system.. so he left. This is the problem with Anakin. The Jedi are not styming his "bliss" because he has no expectation to become a Jedi. It is not a right to be a Jedi. It is not a right to be a Jedi anymore than it is a right to be a Police Officer, or astronaut, or Doctor. We do not change the rules and regulations of those groups just so someone can find their bliss. Anyway, all that preamble aside, here's something I find super-relevant for the Jedi's handling of Anakin: Time Index: 13:07"You could say that religious structures have two elements. There's a dogmatic element and there's a revelatory element or a spiritual element. And the parables and the stories would be sort of midway between the revelatory or spiritual element and the dogmatic element. Now, you need that entire structure because, if you have a revelation, let's say, and you can't transform it into a story and then into a set of guidelines for action, then it remains so unattached from reality that it doesn't produce any change in your life. So you have to concretise the spiritual in order to actualise it.
Now, it's also worth pointing out that conservative political types tilt more towards the dogmatic instantiation of religious structures, and liberal political types more towards the spiritual instantiation. So the liberal types insist that the whole dogma is nothing but an impediment to the spirituality, and, of course, the conservatives say, "Well, no, these are the rules that hold society together."
Part of the problem is that the dogmatic structures are probably more susceptible to aging than the revelatory structures and the stories. Because they're more abstract. They cover more territory but at a lower level of resolution. And so the dogmatic structures may have to be updated. . .
You don't want to make the mistake of assuming that action that's oriented properly is purely dependent on following a structure of rules, because it is and it isn't. . . To act properly is to take that rule-governed structure and to act it out properly. That keeps everyone's expectations aligned. But also to do something dynamic. That's occurring at the same time. And that's that balance between chaos and order. . .
You want to keep one foot in order and one foot in chaos. And so it’s not to act, say, as if God exists – to follow, to blindly follow a set of rules that are cast in stone. That’s why “12 Rules For Life”, at least in part, is kind of a paradoxical book. Because there are rules, and so you say, “Well... Follow. The. Rules”. But the basic rule of the book is, “No – exist on the border between chaos and order." And that’s a funny rule because the rule is that you should transcend the rule at the same time that you’re following it. And so I don’t know if that’s a rule. It’s something other than a rule. So there’s a joke in it, you know, like an ironic joke."-- Jordan Peterson (Video: Entrevista a Jordan Peterson | UTBH, Uploader: Un Tio Blanco Hetero, Date: Nov 17 2018)In a way, I think what Peterson is saying there beats nicely against this quote of Lucas', which I shared in another thread recently: "I believe in a certain amount of determinism, from an ecological point of view. It's that things essentially reach their own equilibrium. If you don't live a certain way, ecologically speaking, you will be forced into a position that will level it. What I would call an "unpoetic" state will eventually become a "poetic state", because an unpoetic state will not last. It can't. It's like economics. It's like life, it's like animals, it's like everything. You can set up an artificial reality, but eventually it will equalize itself, and become real."
-- George Lucas (p. 108, Dec 1975 to March 1976, The Making Of Star Wars: The Definitive Story Behind The Original Film, J.W. Rinzler, 2007)I am a huge fan of Jordan Peterson. I've listened too more of his lectures and interviews that I care to count. Again, you are making these really large leaps of logic in order to draw some kind of equivalence between what these people are saying and Anakin's situation. We are not talking about Anakin living under a totalitarian government where he has no recourse other than breaking the rules. Anakin is voluntarily living within the Jedi Order. He is not there against his will. As we see with Dooku, the Jedi have no issue with, or no ill will against a Jedi that leaves the Order. Peterson tends to ramble a lot. A real lot. Even he admits to this as he freely and openly says that many times he gives his lectures in order to "work out" things that he is thinking about. Meaning that a lot of what he says is fluid as he works to a greater understanding of what he even thinks and feels. SO trying to pull out something he says and fit into a very specific circumstance and context of Anakin is very weak sauce. Simply put again. Anakin has not right to be a Jedi. It is a choice he made, that came with sacrifices. He was not willing to make those sacrifices, so he lied, and deceived. No one ever said he could not get married. He just couldn't be a Jedi and be married. That is on him to make those decisions for himself. He is not entitled to both, no matter what his bliss is. |
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Post by Subtext Mining on Apr 10, 2020 20:36:58 GMT
Here's a question I've been considering for a while now: Did Anakin have a strong inborn propensity toward possessiveness and fear of loss, or did it arise later after leaving his mother, training as a Jedi, and so on? Here's what I mean: after having grown up with his mother, at the age of 9/10 he chose to leave and join the Jedi Order, which forbids attachments. According to Daniel Goleman, author of Emotional Intelligence, a book George Lucas read while developing TPM, this is within the age range which is considered the worst time for a child to lose or leave a parent in terms of its negative psychological effects. Unable or unwilling to follow through with his training on releasing his attachment to her, and/or being unable to outgrow it, I suspect he instead resorted to suppressing his longing for her. Or more specifically, avoided it because of the pain, he didn't want to deal with it. And all of this being a bit unnatural for someone who's joined the Order at his age, I wonder if it just created in him that much more of a bigger need for the kind of connection that he missed. Like a grain of sand in an oyster. I also suspect the more he was required to move beyond his attachment to Shmi (to him, avoid/suppress it) the more he doubled down on his fascination with Padme. Not as a mother figure, but initially as a source of comfort, consolation and inspiration. And with no outlet for an attached emotional connection/bonding he gravitated towards his fantasies of her. First as a caring friend and confidant, then gradually as a muse and a would-be partner.  He just couldn't eradicate the part of himself that longed for intimate emotional bonding. In fact it was part of the good that was always within him, I'd argue. A starving person is going to think a lot about food. And they're often going to develop a hoarding mentality towards it once they get it. And could it be that coming of age in the Jedi environment is what contributed to Anakin's own overcompensation of possessiveness? Was Anakin's warped sense of fear and greed a result of bottling his developed needs and instincts? Keeping in mind that this is indirectly and through no fault of the Jedi code. It's just that Anakin is a square peg here. Was Anakin pretending to toe the line in regards to his training in this area? Did the Jedi assume he was sufficiently progressing, without any sort of check ups? Anakin was an anomaly and they didn't seem quite equipped to accommodate a late-comer such as him. Obi-Wan knew Anakin was attracted to Padme but didn't seem too concerned. Nor did he pursue Anakin's struggle over his dreams of his mother. How much did bottling his need for attachments for years contribute to his explosion in the Tusken camp? Was there a lot of built up frustration and resentment?How much did being powerful in the Force contribute to his sense of entitlement in regards to relationships and possession thereof? And how much did Palpatine play a part here? We know he stroked his ego and inflated his thirst for power, but did he ever urge him to hold on to his sense of attachment to others? Agian, I'm not asking if the Jedi are to blame, I'm just basically, as HelloGreedo alluded to, asking how much was it nature and how much of it was nurture? In TPM we see that he doesn't want things to change and that he is afraid to lose his mother, which is normal for that age. But we also see that he gives without thought of reward. So how and why did a relatively normal person become a Jedi with such strong attachments? *When I said "normal person" before, I only meant in terms of someone having grown up with family, outside the Jedi Order. Perhaps I should say average, everyday person? |
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Post by Moonshield on May 12, 2020 5:51:19 GMT
As much as I can tell, there are 3 Schools of Thought today amongst PT analysts regarding Anakin's fall: 1) Traditional view: It is his purely his own fault, and it all originates from his inability to "let go" and his fear of loss: first with his mother, then with Padmé. Kenobi did his best to help out Anakin in his difficulties, but time after time his advice fell on deaf ears. His wife did all she could to show him the truth, of how fighting for the Republic was no longer a virtuous cause, yet it came to no avail. The Jedi Council are completely blameless. Supporters: Yoda, Mace Windu and Lucas himself (during the DVD commentaries at least) Of course.
"Now, be brave, and don't look back. Don't look back." - George Lucas
The same, more harsh:
"She was without value to him. He had learned to get along without her. Her meaning was forgotten. There was no place for her in his scheme of things, as there was no place for him in hers." - Jack London. "White Fang"
In both cases there are mother and son.
Kenobi did his best, but he was too young. I myself can remember that I didn't respect my young teachers too much.)) Qui-Gon should have been Anakin's teacher.
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Post by Subtext Mining on Jun 5, 2020 18:38:39 GMT
Was Anakin pretending to toe the line in regards to his training in this area? Did the Jedi assume he was sufficiently progressing, without any sort of check ups? Anakin was an anomaly and they didn't seem quite equipped to accommodate a late-comer such as him. Obi-Wan knew Anakin was attracted to Padme but didn't seem too concerned. Nor did he pursue Anakin's struggle over his dreams of his mother. As I mentioned in the "Favorite Frames" thread, it seems to me like Obi-Wan wanted to pursue Anakin's struggle over the dreams of his mother and his apparent lingering attachment to her, but perhaps felt it was inappropriate, and/or this was just not a subject he was good at mentoring to. Now fast-forward to the next day when he tells Mace and Yoda that he feels Anakin is not ready for his assignment. When he is about to give his reason, I thought he was going to say it was because Anakin is not progressing adequately in controlling his attachments and that he in fact has a strong one with Senator Amidala herself, but he (seemingly) deflects his concern towards Anakin and his skills; which are making him arrogant.  While this may also be true, I sometimes wonder if he took this route because he was reluctant to admit that he was failing as a mentor in the attachment lessons, and hoped Anakin could eventually just end up toeing the line - granted Anakin was a handful of a student. It's also interesting that Yoda then agrees but attributes arrogance only to the younger generation. He and Mace also later decide not to admit to the Senate that their powers were diminishing. I don't know, this is just a thought experiment, but instead of the idea that the Jedi were too dogmatic or too cold or fill in the usual blank, perhaps they had a bit too much pride, or were just blind to certain shortcomings. While the diminishing powers one is fairly understandable, what about the other ones I mentioned? Seems Obi-Wan and Yoda ended up coming face to face with their failures eventually. |
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Post by Alexrd on Jun 5, 2020 19:18:19 GMT
When he is about to give his reason, I thought he was going to say it was because Anakin is not progressing adequately in controlling his attachments and that he in fact has a strong one with Senator Amidala herself, but he (seemingly) deflects his concern towards Anakin and his skills; which are making him arrogant. Speaking of Padmé, in the original scene, Obi-Wan does bring up Anakin's emotional attachment to Padmé. But the end result is the same. Ready or not, the Council has decided to place some trust in Anakin. Unfortunately, Anakin wasn't able to honor that trust. While this may also be true, I sometimes wonder if he took this route because he was reluctant to admit that he was failing as a mentor in the attachment lessons, and hoped Anakin could eventually just end up toeing the line - granted Anakin was a handful of a student. It's also interesting that Yoda then agrees but attributes arrogance only to the younger generation. He and Mace also later decide not to admit to the Senate that their powers were diminishing. I don't know, this is just a thought experiment, but instead of the idea that the Jedi were too dogmatic or too cold or fill in the usual blank, perhaps they had a bit too much pride, or were just blind to certain shortcomings. While the diminishing powers one is fairly understandable, what about the other ones? Seems Obi-Wan and Yoda ended up coming face to face with their failures eventually. Yoda attributes arrogance to the older generations as well. But Lucas in the commentary clarifies Yoda's claim that even the older, more experienced Jedi are affected by arrogance. He's pointing out that Obi-Wan himself may also have the same flaw he recognized in Anakin. It's less a general statement and more a particular point he's making to Obi-Wan. That said, do the Jedi in other instances act in arrogance? I don't think so. Some make arrogant claims, but the actions they chose to take are not led by arrogance. |
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Post by Subtext Mining on Jun 5, 2020 19:36:28 GMT
Y'all are too fast  I went to go watch the clip to double check the dialogue, but got distracted. It's not my fault!  |
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Post by Subtext Mining on Jun 6, 2020 6:11:07 GMT
And now I remember that deleted scene. It does strike me as odd that he would be consciously aware of, and point out to Mace, Anakin's attachment to Padme but not make sure to help Anakin sufficiently work on it. And go along with Mace's smug reassurance. It fits the story better that he would skirt over it; out of pride or perhaps shame. And for Yoda to be there to point out the problem of arrogance. I also forgot to mention Yoda's dark encounter with his hubris in TCW. After telling the Priestess that he already knows all that dwells within him and has conquered all his fears and weaknesses. m.youtube.com/watch?v=bb2JgEBB12E |
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Post by Alexrd on Jun 6, 2020 13:41:14 GMT
And now I remember that deleted scene. It does strike me as odd that he would be consciously aware of, and point out to Mace, Anakin's attachment to Padme but not make sure to help Anakin sufficiently work on it. And go along with Mace's smug reassurance. It fits the story better that he would skirt over it; out of pride or perhaps shame. And for Yoda to be there to point out the problem of arrogance. Not sure why he would feel pride or shame. Anakin openly talks with him about Padmé, and Obi-Wan gives his due warnings. Anakin is not stupid either. He knows the problems of attachments and why as a Jedi he shouldn't indulge his passions. The problem is that he ignores what he knows he should do. I also forgot to mention Yoda's dark encounter with his hubris in TCW. After telling the Priestess that he already knows all that dwells within him and has conquered all his fears and weaknesses. The way I see it, that was more of an illustration of the journey he had to take. The audience needed to understand what the tests were about, so he had to momentarily "fail" and then succeeded for us to understand the lesson. Even if as a Jedi, he would be obviously aware of the dark side that's in everyone. It's because he's aware that he doesn't give into it. |
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Post by Subtext Mining on Jun 13, 2020 11:57:59 GMT
Another part of the tapestry to consider; and this isn't mentioned in the films or TCW, but in Tartakovsky's CW we see, due to the demands of the war, Anakin was expedited into Knigthood without undergoing the official trials. And while Yoda understood that it was the will of the Force to allow Anakin to walk his unorthodox path, the trials would've exposed his issue with attachments and things could've then proceeded accordingly. As it is, Anakin had his own personal 'trials' and chose to process them in his own way.  Again, this isn't mentioned in canon proper, but it fits the story nicely. At least imo. |
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Post by Subtext Mining on Mar 15, 2021 13:17:15 GMT
Interesting food for thought: a few weeks ago at TFN I had mentioned that I don't believe Anakin intended to kill Padmé with the Force choke, just get her to black out to teach her a lesson. But somebody replied with the opinion that, in his Sith-fueled revenge rage, he did intend to kill her but Obi-Wan's demand to let her go snapped him out of it.
It's got me thinking, that’s for sure. It's definitely intriguing in that it could actually be Obi-Wan who got Anakin to remember the good in himself, despite the fact he was the one who thought Anakin was completely gone.
It could also add depth to Vader's statement to Luke that "Obi-Wan once thought as you do."
I thought I'd bring this question here and see what you guys and gals think.
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Post by Cryogenic on Mar 15, 2021 23:41:39 GMT
Interesting food for thought: a few weeks ago at TFN I had mentioned that I don't believe Anakin intended to kill Padmé with the Force choke, just get her to black out to teach her a lesson. But somebody replied with the opinion that, in his Sith-fueled revenge rage, he did intend to kill her but Obi-Wan's demand to let her go snapped him out of it. He does seem to listen to Obi-Wan in that moment, especially when Obi-Wan repeats his command with more authority -- "Let. Her. Go." -- the second time around. That said, it is also the appearance of Obi-Wan (on a plane "above" Anakin) that provokes Anakin into choking Padme in the first place. In this moment, Anakin isn't "seeing" his wife so much as noticing and demonstrating his anger/power/rage to his former Jedi Master (whom Anakin is treating, ironically, as still his "real" master; evidenced by the fact that he wants to appear superior to him, but still has just enough submissiveness/rationality to obey the dictates of, albeit with hesitation: i.e., the chafing padawan within Anakin remains present even on Mustafar). It certainly adds depth to that line from Vader in ROTJ. That's the closest Anakin ever comes in the OT to mentioning Padme outright. I say that because his sad utterance can be taken as an oblique reference to the choking event and that final conversation between two of them as husband and wife. Indeed, after that encounter on the landing platform (Vader and landing platforms!), they are both devastated and changed utterly. Obi-Wan, too. Another happy landing. Even though Luke has stirred primal memories in Anakin (e.g., the defensiveness toward his real name; or his "true self" as Luke says), Anakin cannot bring himself to mention his departed wife and Luke's biological mother by name -- the memory of his past is too painful, and his thoughts and feelings toward it are still being repressed. Yet Luke clearly gets Anakin thinking (e.g., when Luke departs in the elevator, Anakin is left alone with his thoughts and takes a moment to reflect). Thus, in a way, the line is something of an apology from Vader, to Padme: an admission that he wronged her and misread her intentions all those years ago. A viewer is invited to infer that Anakin has come to realise that, at worst, Padme collaborated with Obi-Wan, not in order that Obi-Wan should be brought along as security, much less to kill Anakin; but rather: to kill the "Vader" inside Anakin. In other words, Anakin now likely sees Obi-Wan and Padme through a more benign lens: as working towards his salvation and benefit. Symbionts. Lifeforms living together for mutual advantage. Padme didn't collude with Obi-Wan in mortal fear of Anakin; the two of them reasoned (in Anakin's mind) that Anakin could still be reached, if Padme could be sent out ahead of Obi-Wan (even unwittingly) and given the chance to talk with her husband. It didn't work, because Anakin's mood was dark, unapologetic... boastful... murderous. So Obi-Wan stepped out of the shadows and it all went to sh*t (or sith). And Padme was caught in the crossfire. When two elephants fight, it is the grass that suffers. So in ROTJ, we have a penitent Anakin, still trapped in his Vader role, and now the dutiful son of Palpatine -- apparently with a death wish (Luke is meant to kill him; and Vader willingly plays the part of the prey, the inferior apprentice, that Luke must get the better of by delivering the coup de grace). This death wish comes about because Anakin is obviously in mourning for Padme and evidently feels he doesn't deserve life. She died so that he could live. Anakin sees his folly and sincerely believes it is "too late" for him to be saved. He now recognises his monstrous conceit. The weight of his conscience has become a load too big to bear. When Luke rejects him in TESB as Padme once did, fealty to the void is all he has left. Until, of course, Anakin realises that Padme still lives in their son (and daughter). Hope restored. |
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on May 20, 2021 4:03:48 GMT
I'm probably of the 2.5 camp. Anakin was smothered by the Jedi Order. Though the decision to join was of course his own, and Qui-Gon did warn him that it was a hard life, he wasn't capable of understanding the full ramifications of his decision as a child. The Jedi's teachings might work on someone who has been trained from early childhood, but the problems arose because Anakin was taken in too late, like Yoda and Mace believed. I guess the Jedi didn't know what to do with a child that had an attachment to a parent, so they just gave him the normal training, which didn't fit. Anakin had formulated hopes and dreams of what he wanted to do with his life, besides being a Jedi. He wanted to fly around the galaxy freely, but his commitment to the Jedi meant he couldn't visit the places he liked or do what he wanted (Notice the slight smile when he fixes the pit droid head for Watto. "Life seems so much simpler when you're fixing things"). He wasn't allowed to see his mother, who he worried for greatly. Obi-Wan's only advice to his reoccurring nightmares was a true but in this case dismissive "Dreams pass in time". You can see how this might become an oppressive feeling situation. He could have quit being a Jedi (though Obi-Wan says the commitment to the Order isn't easily broken), but it was the only life he knew outside of being a slave. He felt trapped.
This is why Qui-Gon would have been a better teacher for him than Obi-Wan. They were both rebels, bending the rules laid out by the Council. Maybe Qui-Gon would have been more understanding of Anakin's special needs than the other Jedi, and he wouldn't have had to turn to outside counsel from Palpatine. Obi-Wan was too young and not fond of Anakin from the beginning. He even admits to failing his training.
None of this excuses what Anakin did, however. The blame is ultimately on him alone.
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Post by Cryogenic on May 20, 2021 5:00:01 GMT
I'm probably of the 2.5 camp. Anakin was smothered by the Jedi Order. Though the decision to join was of course his own, and Qui-Gon did warn him that it was a hard life, he wasn't capable of understanding the full ramifications of his decision as a child. The Jedi's teachings might work on someone who has been trained from early childhood, but the problems arose because Anakin was taken in too late, like Yoda and Mace believed. I guess the Jedi didn't know what to do with a child that had an attachment to a parent, so they just gave him the normal training, which didn't fit. Anakin had formulated hopes and dreams of what he wanted to do with his life, besides being a Jedi. He wanted to fly around the galaxy freely, but his commitment to the Jedi meant he couldn't visit the places he liked or do what he wanted (Notice the slight smile when he fixes the pit droid head for Watto. "Life seems so much simpler when you're fixing things"). He wasn't allowed to see his mother, who he worried for greatly. Obi-Wan's only advice to his reoccurring nightmares was a true but in this case dismissive "Dreams pass in time". You can see how this might become an oppressive feeling situation. He could have quit being a Jedi (though Obi-Wan says the commitment to the Order isn't easily broken), but it was the only life he knew outside of being a slave. He felt trapped. Wonderful capsule summary! To add just one thing: Padme herself contributes to Anakin feeling trapped in Episode III: ANAKIN: I'm tired of all this deception. I don't care if they know we're married. PADME: Anakin, don't say things like that.Later on, Anakin returns the favour, in a way: PADME: Have you ever thought that we may be on the wrong side? ANAKIN: What do you mean? PADME: What if the democracy we thought we were serving no longer exists? And the Republic has become the very evil we've been fighting to destroy? ANAKIN: I don't believe that. And you're sounding like a Separatist. PADME: This war represents a failure to listen. Now you're closer to the Chancellor than anyone. Please... ask him to stop the fighting and let diplomacy resume. ANAKIN: Don't ask me to do that! Make a motion in the Senate where that kind of a request belongs. ------------------------------ There wasn't really one person that Anakin could turn to for solace; for that critical reassurance that leaving the Jedi Order was a reasonable and viable option. Bail almost seems to know that Anakin has a complex private life, though -- witness the way Anakin excuses himself from talking with Bail, and Bail gives an almost cheeky grin as he walks off. But even if Bail did suspect something, he apparently never said anything. And that was a sin that everyone around Anakin committed. No one wanted to acknowledge the broad implications of what Anakin was doing; the measure of his life; the fullness of his being. So they all quietly colluded to remain ignorant; even between themselves. And in that way, what Anakin kept in the closet was guaranteed never to stay there; but to spill out, dark, mutated, violent. By everyone averting their gaze, they were all forced to confront what they chose to ignore in the end. To redeploy a George Lucas quote from earlier: |
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on May 20, 2021 5:37:07 GMT
I'm probably of the 2.5 camp. Anakin was smothered by the Jedi Order. Though the decision to join was of course his own, and Qui-Gon did warn him that it was a hard life, he wasn't capable of understanding the full ramifications of his decision as a child. The Jedi's teachings might work on someone who has been trained from early childhood, but the problems arose because Anakin was taken in too late, like Yoda and Mace believed. I guess the Jedi didn't know what to do with a child that had an attachment to a parent, so they just gave him the normal training, which didn't fit. Anakin had formulated hopes and dreams of what he wanted to do with his life, besides being a Jedi. He wanted to fly around the galaxy freely, but his commitment to the Jedi meant he couldn't visit the places he liked or do what he wanted (Notice the slight smile when he fixes the pit droid head for Watto. "Life seems so much simpler when you're fixing things"). He wasn't allowed to see his mother, who he worried for greatly. Obi-Wan's only advice to his reoccurring nightmares was a true but in this case dismissive "Dreams pass in time". You can see how this might become an oppressive feeling situation. He could have quit being a Jedi (though Obi-Wan says the commitment to the Order isn't easily broken), but it was the only life he knew outside of being a slave. He felt trapped. Wonderful capsule summary! To add just one thing: Padme herself contributes to Anakin feeling trapped in Episode III: ANAKIN: I'm tired of all this deception. I don't care if they know we're married. PADME: Anakin, don't say things like that.Later on, Anakin returns the favour, in a way: PADME: Have you ever thought that we may be on the wrong side? ANAKIN: What do you mean? PADME: What if the democracy we thought we were serving no longer exists? And the Republic has become the very evil we've been fighting to destroy? ANAKIN: I don't believe that. And you're sounding like a Separatist. PADME: This war represents a failure to listen. Now you're closer to the Chancellor than anyone. Please... ask him to stop the fighting and let diplomacy resume. ANAKIN: Don't ask me to do that! Make a motion in the Senate where that kind of a request belongs. ------------------------------ There wasn't really one person that Anakin could turn to for solace; for that critical reassurance that leaving the Jedi Order was a reasonable and viable option. Bail almost seems to know that Anakin has a complex private life, though -- witness the way Anakin excuses himself from talking with Bail, and Bail gives an almost cheeky grin as he walks off. But even if Bail did suspect something, he apparently never said anything. And that was a sin that everyone around Anakin committed. No one wanted to acknowledge the broad implications of what Anakin was doing; the measure of his life; the fullness of his being. So they all quietly colluded to remain ignorant; even between themselves. And in that way, what Anakin kept in the closet was guaranteed never to stay there; but to spill out, dark, mutated, violent. By everyone averting their gaze, they were all forced to confront what they chose to ignore in the end. To redeploy a George Lucas quote from earlier: Good catch with the dialogue. It's interesting that Anakin was almost ready to give up his life as a Jedi, and Padmé was the one who was more concerned about keeping their relationship a secret. It is also interesting to think how things would have turned out if Qui-Gon lived. I believe Anakin would have been able to confide in him better than he could in Obi-Wan. In the deleted scene from TPM with Anakin fighting Greedo, Qui-Gon very calmly defuses the situation and talks to Anakin, while I think Obi-Wan would have scolded him. Qui-Gon was very fatherly to Anakin from the get-go, and they had a good rapport. What Anakin needed was balance, and Qui-Gon as the practitioner of the balanced way would have cultivated that in Anakin. |
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Post by Cryogenic on May 20, 2021 6:20:30 GMT
Good catch with the dialogue. It's interesting that Anakin was almost ready to give up his life as a Jedi, and Padmé was the one who was more concerned about keeping their relationship a secret. Thanks. Although, admittedly, it's hard to gauge how serious is when Anakin says it (he claims to be tired; and in Episode III, he seems very fatigued, understandably, once his bad dreams start back up). Padme nevertheless shuts him down fast (another Anakin-Threepio link -- how many times is Threepio shut down in the OT?). She perhaps thought she could moderate Anakin's more reckless impulses. Evidently, she even got used to "living a lie" -- yet this was the fundamental objection, and the killing blow, she landed against Anakin's advances in Episode II, impelling him to drop his seduction/love pledges thereafter. Qui-Gon is more patient, more pragmatic, more whimsical, and more mystical than Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan improves in all those areas over time, but he took on more than he could handle at the end of Episode I with Anakin. He wasn't ready, having not even faced the Jedi Trials when he encountered Anakin, and still apprenticed to Qui-Gon. Moreover, he didn't witness Anakin's life on Tatooine, and didn't see the bond Anakin had with his mother, his tricky life under Watto, nor did he appreciate what Anakin did for them in winning the parts. On top of all that, he seemed to agree with the Jedi Council's misgivings and told Qui-Gon the boy was "dangerous" in earshot of Anakin. He also failed to understand Qui-Gon's flexible approach to Jedi doctrine ("If you would just follow the Code, you would be on the Council" -- notice the conflation of "Code" with "Council"). So yes, had Qui-Gon lived, things might have gone in a better direction. BTW, there's another thread about just that topic.  |
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Post by Moonshield on May 21, 2021 14:58:14 GMT
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Post by jppiper on Apr 19, 2022 12:53:56 GMT
Alexrd Unfortunately the Jedi have been vilified by fans and in universe there's one blog that's Anti-Jedi and Anti-Yoda It's not Anti-Prequel but it pisses me off probably why i haven't been to the site in months. I'm not anti-Yoda or anti-Jedi, I think what he said in ROTS rings very true. Anakin should have learned to let go. The only thing that Yoda said that I protest to is that people shouldn't mourn or miss people when they're fated to die. Just letting go without any grief is bad emotional advice, and would draw them further to the Dark Side more than anything. But what Yoda said about rejoicing and letting go of not the people, but the fear of losing people is still highly important. Anakin should have questioned Yoda's "no-mourning" BS, but he shouldn't have turned a deaf ear to such crucial advice. And ultimately he understood in ROTJ, and his character arc towards it is great. Regarding the Jedi, I only think they were ethically dubious in the PT, but they weren't automatically the bad guys. My definition of what a Jedi should be is what Luke and Anakin demonstrated in ROTJ, and I felt that the Jedi of the PT were purposefully straying away from that idea. But again: that does not make them on the wrong side. But why is it pissing you off enough to separate yourself from the site? It's just an alternate interpretation. You can argue against that, but I'm not gonna hate you for a different interpretation. i never said you were |
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I went to go watch the clip to double check the dialogue, but got distracted.
