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Post by stampidhd280pro on Jan 15, 2020 2:58:55 GMT
So fake.
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Post by Cryogenic on Jan 15, 2020 3:20:23 GMT
I sense a grey propaganda campaign at work. But who is broadcasting the signal? |
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Jan 15, 2020 5:33:43 GMT
*Looks at the the website*
The A.V Club: Pop culture obsessives writing for the pop culture obsessed.
So this is how a professional film blog chooses to define itself today...
Very interesting story though. I must read some of it in detail.
Well done to the leaker. You win the internet!
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Post by Ingram on Jan 15, 2020 9:44:53 GMT
Legitimacy taken at face value, I think I kinda dig it. In relative terms of course. But, yeah.
The title is a bit too referentially cut 'n' paste; Hows about The Dueling Fates or The Final Duel or, hell, maybe even Sabers at Dawn? ...Truce of the Fates, The Jedi and Sith No More.
And I agree about the opening crawl. It comes off almost like a placeholder until they reiterated with something punchier. Beyond that...
For starters, more R2-D2 and Rose, together, no less. Yes please, thank you. Lighting a beacon on Coruscant pulls from Gandalf and Pippin lighting the beacon from Gondor, but consider the uniquely Star Wars visual/set-piece possibilities here—the very name of the planet. What if long ago during its metropolitan envelopment the entire surface of Coruscant was designed in secrecy to double in times of galactic emergency as a literal glistening jewel, in tandem with sending out maximum SOS transmissions in every direction? Finn, Rose and the droids, then, essentially turning on the brightest light in the galaxy. The brightest spark. Such could accomplish two things: a) meta-jokingly succeeding in a subplot mission where, in the previous entry, Frosinn came up empty handed, and b) naturally, providing the two with a perfect backdrop to crown their blossoming romance as a full-blown love commitment (also, a special little Prequelesque denouement for Artoo and Threepio having together helped repurpose a planet where upon, years ago, they could do nothing but witness a downfall). Instead, The Rise of Skywalker saddles Finn with the most tacked-on of nobodies, Miss 'Zero Personality' Jannah (arguably the most unnecessary goddamn speaking role in all of Star Wars), while the once established character of Rose altogether amounts to: stays behind, stands around, wears a shirt. Hooray.
Kylo Ren continuing on with the Emperor's last will-and-testament hologram commanding that Vader escort Luke (to Exegol?) to train under Tor Valum echoes Force ghost Ben Kenobi: "You will go to the Dagobah system" [...] "There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi master who instructed me." Once again, learners detouring from the cause and venturing to far off worlds in search of new teachers. Ditch the "ghoulish" rendering of Valum, though, as we've already had similar spooky horror-like visages with the Emperor, Snoke and even Maul. Try changing it up as a 7,000-yearold woman of porcelain-yet-witchy ethereal beauty; a mother surrogate for Kylo. Or possibly a childlike alien in appearance, seemingly benign and thus all the more disturbing; a figure so Dark Side incarnate that he/she is acquitted of being yet another last-minute contrived supervillain who instead exists on the dramatic stage almost as a non-character, as the ultimate totem of evil, a primordial absolute beyond grand speeches and histrionics, and whose disposition is illustrated solely through Kylo's interpretation/tutelage. The only problem however you cut it remains structural, in that all of this would've been setup too late in the game, instead better serving the trilogy midway through with Episode VIII, perhaps saved for Kylo's last few scenes in that movie as a type of cliffhanger.
And Kylo matched against the Phantom Vader? Sure. Likewise maybe too on the nose with Luke fighting Vader in the cave on Dagobah, but there could've been potential for some key thematic switcheroos. Luke defeats 'ignis fatuus' Vader only to discover himself behind the mask. Inverted, Kylo is defeated by his subconscious version of Vader only for the latter to somehow reveal the form of, hmm, Rey, maybe? -- Kylo's Achilles heel. Or a redeemed Anakin? -- that which would shatter Kylo's lifelong role model. Or Ben Solo, and so slayed once and for all the lingering Light Side of Kylo. Above all is the notion of both Kylo and Rey reinstating what was first submitted in The Last Jedi, being each of their respective journeys in shutting down the machine, so to speak, of the worn thin Jedi-Sith dichotomy in favor of some new stage of evolution that is the Force. In the name of, maybe it'd be Kylo who in the end extinguishes himself, in his final moments knowing he could never find salvation but also foregoing the usual cancerous Sith path taken by those before him—dying in some way to prove, to manifest, an alternative, with Rey the beholder, and all the wiser for it. Her story, the trilogy, might have then ended on a genuinely new horizon of beloved 43-yearold concepts reinvented.
Alas, we got the Emperor tasing all the space ships and blue-balled Reylo fans.
Oh well.
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Post by Alexrd on Jan 15, 2020 11:41:03 GMT
How can you tell? Unfortunately, ludicrousness is no longer evidence of fakery, as made evident by the Disney Wars movies. --- As for the contents of this alleged script, it's really not much better than the version that was made. The core problems remain, and it could never be fixed on the last movie. But let's dissect this: I'll never understand this obsession with a secondary character's amount of screen time. In better days, the story used to dictate that. But now it's fan demand (or lack thereof). The allies that didn't exist? And wasn't Coruscant discarded for whatever planet that was virtually Coruscant but with a different name (like most of the planets in this trilogy) which ended up being destroyed? Why would there be a beacon on Coruscant and not in nu-Coruscant? Yes, "situation". There are hardly any words to define whatever this is. I must really be in some parallel reality to not only not know to whom any of those names refer to but to also not know that one of them is a fan favourite... So, just like TROS, not only haven't the Sith been destroyed (undermining the prophecy and Anakin), but Palpatine wasn't taught by Darth Plagueis, his established Sith Master. Wait. Kylo's mother is skeptical about the ability to save her son, but a complete stranger believes anyone can change because a stormtrooper happened to have a change of heart? How does one thing even relate to the other? What motives? What ideologies? It would not have been good first and foremost because of how this mess of a trilogy was conceived. |
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Post by Cryogenic on Jan 16, 2020 12:12:48 GMT
Legitimacy taken at face value, I think I kinda dig it. In relative terms of course. But, yeah. As a general note: I'd say it's good that these things get out there, for all to scrutinise and discuss. Maybe the means are a bit shady, but given how controlling Disney has been (no "Making Of" books have yet been released for the sequel films), fans have been starved for information. I dig it, too, as a neat "what if?" -- like discovering a hidden crawl beneath the main one. I sense you're having a bit of fun there. For Ingram, this is where the fun begins...  Might as well toss a few more in along similar lines: THE FINAL BATTLE THE RECKONING REY EMBRACES THE GHEY DARK REY IN YOUR CLOSET THE REYLO HOLOCRON THE JAR JAR HOLOCRON THE RISE OF BINKS REY AND KYLO GO SWIMMING LANDO GETS A NEW CAPE MY FORCE BEATS YOUR FORCE LET'S ALL GO GET PIZZA POE DAMERON AND THE VR TROOPER OF DOOM ATTACK OF THE FAN SERVICE MIDI-CHLORIANS, WHAT THE HECK ARE THOSE? THE DARK SIDE NOW HAS COOKIES AND BELGIAN WAFFLES PARTY AT THE DIVERSITY CASTLE DO YOU THINK WE USED ENOUGH BLUE? ROSE OF THE SKYWALKER; JUST KIDDING, SHE ISN'T IN IT etc., etc.
It's a sandcrawler of a crawl -- needs a bit of WD-40.
Nah. We don't need two short Asians tasering people in a Star Wars movie.
Cool speculation. I got a similar LOTR-y vibe from the same part of the description. I think what Rian Johnson was showing in "The Last Jedi" is that Finn and Rose were in a little over their heads, and more like over-eager children discovering the world for the first time. The real miracle of the film is that their plan almost succeeds. Now, granted, you could argue they were rough diamonds in need of a little polishing, and Episode IX could have allowed them to journey to the jewel of the galaxy (what's with all these gemstone metaphors, Cryo?) and have them victorious, as a response/continuation of what Rian started in TLJ. Fine. But there's something that doesn't resonate for me here. I never detected much blossoming romance in TLJ. The romantic vibes were coming "thinly" from Rose -- and they weren't reciprocated. Happens often in life. Even in fairy tales.
That said, I do wish Rose had been given more scenes in TROS, and that the film had maybe been allowed to run a little longer. Lots of last-minute cutting, apparently, and heavy alterations. Only makes it all the more grating, given how large a role she got in TLJ, only to have her reduced to little more than a vague face in a crowd in Abrams' picture. Moreover, after TLJ received backlash, Abrams himself spoke up in the movie's defence, accusing some people of maybe having a problem with seeing strong women in Star Wars. Yet he's the one that reduced Rose to little more than mild visual seasoning; barely even plot furniture. You would think it was Kelly Marie Tran who attacked the producers in some way, instead of her being the one that received a slew of insults and nasty tweets. I don't mind her role being reduced in TROS -- after all, there's no written rule that says a character that features significantly in one film has to have a similar presence in the next -- but the major reduction of Tran's character, especially in light of exogenous factors, is unfortunate.
Jannah's personality didn't stand out after one viewing, but she was at least calmer and less febrile than Rose. Maybe a bit too doe-ish. I'll need to see the film again, but I think they were trying to imply that her personality was still a "work in progress", after heavy stormtrooper conditioning. Or something along those lines. She also has a nice little bond with Finn. He seems to be more of a babe magnet than he realises. And a Poe magnet, too, of course.
I agree with you suggesting that the "shrivelled old man" archetype be changed up for something more feminine and ethereal. But what more teaching could Kylo need? I think he's sick of kneeling and learning. The last act of TLJ places him in the role of Supreme Leader, which means he's the Big Cheese -- albeit, one with temper-tantrum problems (so, like Steve Jobs, then). I just can't see him abandoning that post and seeking out more training. Artefacts? Sure. Little side quests? Have at it. But he otherwise thinks he has what he needs. On the other hand, it's perhaps a bit strange that he isn't more curious about his grandfather's mentor; and who may, in turn, have mentored him. But he was under Snoke's tyrannical tutelage for many years, so I can see him being done with the whole supplicating student thing. Unless you imagine he might be keen to have someone fill the vacuum left by Snoke. He seemingly wanted that to be Rey in TLJ, so it's not crazy he may be seeking someone else out of immense power in Episode IX. Still, the Abrams film works perfectly well in this regard, in my opinion. I think the frustrating thing is that Darth Plagueis was withheld. They went the safer option with crowd-pleasing Palpatine instead.
Well, the Jedi might be undergoing a certain process of renewal in the sequels, but that doesn't mean the Jedi-Sith dichotomy is being transcended or abandoned. That was something TLJ teased, but it also has Luke declaring he won't be the titular "Last Jedi", Rey taking the books, and Yoda reassuring Luke (partially in reference to the books) that Rey basically has what she needs. Plus Luke's taunting of Kylo at the end, sounding deliberately reminiscent of Obi-Wan to Vader, implying he'll be back in the way that his own mentors returned through the Force. TLJ is subversive, but maybe not as much as some people have read into it. Certain verities are still affirmed. If you go back and watch Luke's first lesson to Rey, Luke imploring Rey and trying to convince her the Jedi aren't needed fails -- indeed, his desperately-intoned question is interrupted by her sensing the hidden grotto and going "straight to the dark". Like the film is saying: "Shut up, Luke. Rey won't be answering a question as dumb as that." There's a degree of smoke-and-mirrors teasing in TLJ that isn't real. Middle pictures are allowed to be more lyrical and abstract, and I think Rian had some fun with that. Not to call the picture un-serious. It isn't. It's more like a filter. In my estimation, we get an appropriate resolution and re-alignment of core saga values in TROS, and I appreciate the film for that. Both films.
Kylo confronting a Phantom Vader? I prefer the tease in TROS of Rey being matched -- albeit fleetingly -- against her own dark reflection: Dark Rey, Empress Rey, Flaming Red String-wielding Sith Witch Rey, or whatever the hell actually happens there. Oh, boy. TROS is full of great little moments like that. That's another difference between Abrams and Johnson; and, seemingly, this leaked Trevorrow script. Where is Rey in this script? Seriously: Where is she? It's clearly more Kylo-centric. TLJ was also that way. But Abrams is a bit more Rey-focused. Her story is stronger in his installments. Not that her story is completely trivial or weak in TLJ. It's there. But she is essentially made to come under Kylo's spell and ape the thinking of Luke in TESB and ROTJ. After Luke reveals himself to be a broken man, Rey decides to take matters into her own hands (still charitably offering Luke his saber back a second time), acting as Luke once did, as if trying to force history to go the same way a second time. Basically, befitting its "middle movie" status, all characters are operating with certain illusions in TLJ. Nevertheless, Rey feels more particularised in TFA and TROS. As Abrams has now clarified with a solid cinematic riposte to Johnson, it's really Rey's trilogy and Rey's journey: her awakening, her rise.
LOL. I love your epigrammatic punchlines. The atmospheric effects of Exegol are why he doesn't destroy all the ships. Oh, you mean it's silly he shoots lightning into the sky like that to begin with? Yeah, it's pretty dorky, but it works -- the Emperor getting his groove back.
I don't think the movie really blue-balled Reylo fans. Maybe a bit. But look at the Trevorrow script (or the summary we have): Where is Reylo in that? I caught only one allusion to it when Rey is described, a la Anakin, of having dark dreams of Kylo.
They could really only do so much "Reylo" stuff in the films themselves. But something is better than nothing. It's mostly better being confined to fan fiction and fan speculation. It allows people to run riot. It's the ultimate (sexual/erotic) "mystery box" of the series. And yes, when Rey touches the saber in TFA, she activates an explicit "mystery box" sequence, in a dank cellar, no less. The symbolism there is pretty on the nose. And the virginal Rey encounters the big bad wolf of Kylo in the forest not long after -- indeed, the encounter is induced by the vision sequence, since Rey arrives there, seeking refuge from what she just experienced. I also think the scenes on Takodana contain some of Abrams' most fluidic direction.
I think JJ's mystery haiku has its place. Of course, he has a strong adolescent streak that often clouds or interferes with his best ideas, covering over his clever moments of cinematic articulation, but they're there. The Trevorrow script is packed with lore (but so is TROS), but ultimately rings a little hollow (but so does TROS -- maybe?). For better or worse, TROS is a very "JJ"-esque movie. While his Star Trek movies aren't my cup of tea, I did enjoy "Super 8", and he might have a better handle on Star Wars than people (now) give him credit for. Ultimately, I guess I'm a little drunk on TROS, and still in my exhilaration phase. Take it all with several helpings of Crait salt.
How can you tell? Unfortunately, ludicrousness is no longer evidence of fakery, as made evident by the Disney Wars movies. --- As for the contents of this alleged script, it's really not much better than the version that was made. The core problems remain, and it could never be fixed on the last movie. I know you're addressing stampid, but that's why I began my collation of negative musings with this quote on the former page: Panda_hat
1 day ago
This reads like terrible terrible fanfiction.
As such I’m going to accept that it is 100% real.
www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsLeaks/comments/eoaxdn/robert_meyer_burnett_reviews_an_early_draft_of/febe7wa/It's not merely fan demand. Rose is an important character in TLJ -- somewhat unlike any previous character in SW -- and is basically just jettisoned from the trilogy in TROS. Moreover, the actress was badly defamed on social media, and when people lashed out at TLJ, as I mentioned above, Abrams accused segments of the fanbase of hating women. So her lack of screen time in TROS (which is, among other things, a direct sequel to TLJ) sticks out more than it should. That said, she's still there, if not really there-there, so she wasn't wholesale deleted from the trilogy. But close. Heck, at Comic-Con in 2015, promoting TFA, Abrams even quipped: "I'm not casting these movies coming out, but if I were to, I would cast them as only Asian." Here are the quotes/sources: www.indiewire.com/2018/02/jj-abrams-star-wars-last-jedi-women-1201929593/
"Their problem isn’t ‘Star Wars,’ their problem is being threatened."
And:
"Star Wars’ is a big galaxy, and you can sort of find almost anything you want to in ‘Star Wars,'” [Abrams] said. “If you are someone who feels threatened by women and needs to lash out against them, you can probably find an enemy in ‘Star Wars.’ You can probably look at the first movie that George [Lucas] did [‘Star Wars: A New Hope’] and say that Leia was too outspoken, or she was too tough. Anyone who wants to find a problem with anything can find the problem. The internet seems to be made for that."And his "Asian" remark: The relevant part begins at 25:00That's a good question. Abrams made a mess of things -- and arguably signalled his real intent -- when blowing up "nu-Coruscant" in TFA. I guess Coruscant is all that's left. But I'm not bothered we didn't see it again. Though we probably should have. Ah. Some situations in Star Wars are less defined than others. But Lucas certainly worked hard to ensure each movie's plot circumstances were crisply defined compared to the sequels, despite his movies having many interlocking story parts. "Fan favourite" is typical geek-media overstatement. But they're semi-decent characters. Zorii Bliss looks cool and is played by the talented and attractive Keri Russell (who, surprisingly, is in her 40s, and not your typical 20- or 30-something woman that Hollywood prefers to cast), while Babu Frik is a cute, tiny, redoubtable droidsmith who resets C-3PO, being somewhat reminiscent (to me, anyway) of the little alien that gives K and J a vital clue in the first "Men In Black". You can see both characters in a full scene that the official channel released just yesterday: I'm a little surprised they've put out a two-minute scene like that. They've certainly been very generous (perhaps too generous) with pre-release material, or material that parallels the release of the film in cinemas. They seem really eager to create buzz and get fans back on side. I do love the cinematography in this clip -- and it's a rare occasion in which the film slows down and focuses on its characters for a slightly more drawn-out moment. Daisy's acting has also improved since TFA and TLJ. Love her eye acting, especially on silent. Her face is also lit brilliantly in this scene, with a sort of watery-gold glow. And yes, if you like, Threepio acts a lot more human here, with more of the real Anthony Daniels bursting through. But just as Threepio didn't know he had it in him in ROTJ, he once more gets to save the skins of the other characters, and it's a poignant moment when he paces the floor, realising the stakes, and so choosing to gaze on his friends for what might be the last time. I also like the compassion Rey shows him. As Snoke said: She has the spirit of a true Jedi. Maybe it's an alternate name. Dark Siders tend to have dual identities. That said, was Palpatine officially taught by Darth Plagueis, and only Darth Plagueis? I feel he should have showed up at the end of the Sequel Trilogy, but they went with Palpatine, or solely Palpatine, because he's more bankable. Yep. That also rings completely false to me. Granted, Leia does have a moment of doubt in TLJ, when she tells Luke that she knows Kylo is gone. Only for Luke to rebuff her: "No one's ever truly gone." I can't believe she would believe her son was lost beyond doubt. Would Rey, conversely, believe so acutely in Kylo's ability to change, vis-a-vis Leia's skepticism? That seems a bit odd given the events of TLJ. I can imagine it working, however, and Leia taking Rey under her wing, like the daughter she never had, not wanting to lose her to Kylo as she lost Han. Yeah. This is very foggy to me. Ouch. I'm a little more willing to show kindness than you are, but we've all got our points of view. |
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Post by Alexrd on Jan 16, 2020 17:04:05 GMT
I know you're addressing stampid, but that's why I began my collation of negative musings with this quote on the former page: I completely subscribe to that sentiment. That's something that has been debunked already, I believe. and when people lashed out at TLJ, as I mentioned above, Abrams accused segments of the fanbase of hating women. So her lack of screen time in TROS (which is, among other things, a direct sequel to TLJ) sticks out more than it should. That said, she's still there, if not really there-there, so she wasn't wholesale deleted from the trilogy. But close. Heck, at Comic-Con in 2015, promoting TFA, Abrams even quipped: "I'm not casting these movies coming out, but if I were to, I would cast them as only Asian." Here are the quotes/sources: www.indiewire.com/2018/02/jj-abrams-star-wars-last-jedi-women-1201929593/
"Their problem isn’t ‘Star Wars,’ their problem is being threatened."
And:
"Star Wars’ is a big galaxy, and you can sort of find almost anything you want to in ‘Star Wars,'” [Abrams] said. “If you are someone who feels threatened by women and needs to lash out against them, you can probably find an enemy in ‘Star Wars.’ You can probably look at the first movie that George [Lucas] did [‘Star Wars: A New Hope’] and say that Leia was too outspoken, or she was too tough. Anyone who wants to find a problem with anything can find the problem. The internet seems to be made for that."And his "Asian" remark: The relevant part begins at 25:00Incredible how Abrams makes up his own strawman while trying to virtue signal in the press. Indeed. Although I criticize them for avoiding the story, themes, locations, etc for a sequel trilogy, the fact that this trilogy turned out so dissonant from the previous six movies makes me glad that they didn't use classic locations (even though they tried to by replicating them under a new name). Exactly! I guess you can go that route to justify it, but what's the point of giving Palpatine another master other than Plagueis? If they are going to bring back old Sith, and present it as Palpatine's master, why not pick Plagueis? To confuse the audience further? Oh, right. I forgot that a lot of this is in TFA/TLJ as well. Leia giving up on her son, Luke Jake trying to murder his nephew and then suddenly change his mind while giving Leia advice over something he believed for years up to that very day. None of this makes any sense. It feels contrived and inexplicable. Speaking of inexplicable, it's funny looking back how, since 2015, all those fan theories and excuses (like "it's going to be explained in the next movie") to valid questions never came to fruition. Now people don't even care about it. Where the PT had fire in equivalent fan discussions, the DT has apathy. I know you're a fan.  In order for me to be kind towards this trilogy, I would need to ignore a lot of things that happened (on-screen, off-screen and behind the scenes). Even if I stuck solely to what's on-screen, I still don't understand its story and respective point, but I do get why I don't understand. The answer lies in it's inception and how each chapter was developed. |
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Post by jppiper on Jan 16, 2020 18:37:12 GMT
They're Blowing up Hosnian Prime in TFA was a Deliberate Petty and Mean-Spirited attack on the Prequels Because The Whiny OT Fanboys Hated the Politics in the PT
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Jan 16, 2020 18:52:29 GMT
They're Blowing up Hosnian Prime in TFA was a Deliberate Petty and Mean-Spirited attack on the Prequels Because The Whiny OT Fanboys Hated the Politics in the PT
You're missing something Joe...
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Post by jppiper on Jan 16, 2020 20:07:06 GMT
it's a Good thing Denis Lawson turned down that cameo otherwise Wedge would be dead a foreshadowing of how This Trilogy Disrespected The OT Characters
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Post by Cryogenic on Jan 17, 2020 1:31:54 GMT
That's something that has been debunked already, I believe. I'm not certain it has. As I recall, there was some denial or vagueness on the part of Kelly Marie Tran that she switched certain accounts off for trolling, per se. But I'm plenty sure criticism -- some of it very harsh -- genuinely got to her. She wrote a piece about it to The New York Times. I can't read it (you need a subscription), so here's a link that summarises it instead (original link provided in the article): mashable.com/article/kelly-marie-tran-new-york-times-essay/I think the problem is the way criticism was seized on by some voices in the media as "racist" or "hate speech", when some of it probably wasn't, thereby inflating the myth of Tran being subjected to the rantings of reactive, hateful troglodytes, implying a problem with Star Wars fans -- despite the fact that many voiced displeasure toward TLJ and gave perfectly legitimate reasons. Isn't it? The part that gets me is the end of his remark: "Anyone who wants to find a problem with anything can find the problem. The internet seems to be made for that." Coming from the guy finding his own "problem" within the fanbase -- i.e., misogyny -- in that same moment. Also coming from the guy who took a swipe at Jar Jar in a press article promoting TFA, and who obviously had difficulties with the prequels, tacitly agreeing with many negative pieces that have come out on them and virtue-signalling to prequel haters many times in the promotion of TFA. And prequel hatred is an online phenomenon, or found its strongest articulation online. So also rich of him to say that. Yep. The prequels are in there. And the Original Trilogy is in there in spades: Jakku, The First Order, The Resistance, remote hideaway Jedi planet with magic cave, a "salt" planet with a walker battle, etc., etc. To be fair, some of these paint jobs are more interesting than others, with a few even hitting their own notes of profundity and deep-dish intrigue (I sound more cynical about Luke's island hideaway than I really am). But there's no escaping the overarching retro effect. It's quite amazing how much blatant recycling there is. Especially when they had Lucas' treatments and his entire art department (including all unused art for the previous six films, "The Clone Wars", and LucasArts video games) at their disposal. Remember Lucas' brilliant clock quotation? archive.vanityfair.com/article/share/95654bf3-8e60-4acf-bdf3-097631495346
"The interesting thing about Star Wars—and I didn't ever really push this very far, because it's not really that important—but there's a lot going on there that most people haven't come to grips with yet. But when they do, they will find it's a much more intricately made clock than most people would imagine."(BTW: That wasn't an archive link when last I checked, only a few weeks ago! Damn, how the Internet keeps changing. "Huh. Always on the move.") From 2005. Would these people be audacious enough to say something like that? Scratch that. They probably would. I don't know. But Daisy Ridley definitely uttered the name "Snoke" at the Comic-Con event in 2015, in response to a question from an audience member regarding the possible appearance of Darth Plagueis in the ST. The same video I provided in my last post. Can't recall the exact part right now. Seems there was something in the pipeline early on. To be fair, Leia hasn't given up on Kylo in TFA. She tells Han that they can turn him back from the Dark Side inside the Resistance base, and before Han flies off, she wistfully says to him: "If you see our son, bring him home." After Kylo kills Han and Leia is shown sensing it through the Force, she obviously loses heart. Though, when TLJ opens, there is a scene between mother and son, where Leia seems to be silently communicating with Kylo in his TIE silencer (aptly named), and Kylo feels something in return. In this moment, he hesitates, then takes his finger off the firing button. Even though his escort blows up the bridge of Leia's ship, Leia survives -- possibly because Kylo, in becoming aware of Leia, and reluctant/ashamed, gives her enough time to prepare for the event, right before the bridge is destroyed. Very interesting moment. If she has lost faith at the end of the film, it may be because the Resistance is pinned down on Crait and been thinned to almost nothing. She may also have been saying it because she thought it might be consoling to Luke. Perhaps she has a moment of weakness, but for a good reason, and tries communicating the idea that she has moved on and Luke needn't keep hanging onto his own remorse. But then there's a moment between Luke and Leia which is beautifully wordless, where Luke seems to give Leia the courage to go on, and Leia gives him this look. Leia's feelings for Kylo, like his for her, are obviously complex. A mother's love is hard to completely break. I guess there is a little of that -- maybe a lot. Going by YouTube, SW fans, including Disney aficionados, aren't a lot of happy bunnies. The cohesiveness of the PT has helped it in the long run. It has always provided a solid ground for discussion and engagement, and now, it seems, some have seen the light and have a higher regard for the prequels than five or ten years ago. I never thought too much would be explained, myself. I knew fans were setting themselves up for a disappointment. Are they wrong to be disappointed? Perhaps not. But they probably gave Disney too much credit to begin with. Half-fan. Well, a fan, I suppose. Trying to work out how big of a fan I am. Or whether the appeal of suddenly growing into more of a fan the last six months or so will wear off. I started to see the good in TLJ and it snowballed from there. Well, I mean, I still think TFA is very weak sauce in a lot of ways, but I was able to enjoy TROS on my first viewing. Can't say that for either of the former sequel entries. Or even "Rogue One". That's either a real difference or evidence of having somehow forced myself (no pun intended) to enjoy one of these damn sequels from the start. I almost think its story is irrelevant. It's more a "meta" take on the whole series, done largely with OT building blocks, sprinkled with PT pixie dust. Almost feels pointless. But there's (some) good in this thing (somewhere), I know it. |
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Post by stampidhd280pro on Jan 17, 2020 2:24:19 GMT
I've settled on a final viewing order for the saga. I never imagined it would work this way, but it works the best. Someone on the other message board had pointed out that the saga had not really resulted in 3 trilogies as its structure but a prologue, an epilogue, and two duologies flanking a central trilogy. This was something I was starting to notice too, so I ended up basing this viewing order on that observation:
STAR WARS Episode I: The Phantom Menace
RADIOLAND MURDERS
STAR WARS Episode II: Attack of the Clones
STAR WARS Episode III: Revenge of the Sith
AMERICAN GRAFFITI
STAR WARS Episode IV: A New Hope
STAR WARS Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back
STAR WARS Episode VI: Return of the Jedi
MORE AMERICAN GRAFFITI
STAR WARS Episode VII: The Force Awakens
STAR WARS Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
THX 1138
STAR WARS Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker
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Post by jppiper on Jan 17, 2020 2:43:07 GMT
Where Does Indiana Jones and Willow fit into all this?
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Post by stampidhd280pro on Jan 17, 2020 3:13:20 GMT
Indiana Jones is kind of its own marathon. Wil1low, I just don't like very much.
In case anyone doesn't know, Radioland Murders is indeed a prequel to American Graffiti and GL said that THX, AG, and Star Wars are their own trilogy, so there is quite a bit of logic to the selection.
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Post by Cryogenic on Jan 17, 2020 3:18:18 GMT
I've settled on a final viewing order for the saga. I never imagined it would work this way, but it works the best. Someone on the other message board had pointed out that the saga had not really resulted in 3 trilogies as its structure but a prologue, an epilogue, and two duologies flanking a central trilogy. Who was that? Sounds very in-keeping with Lucas' original 12-film outline from 1978, which Rinzler discussed and provided scans of on a blog entry about the Sequel Trilogy -- which, rather neatly (why -- it almost feels deliberate!), was posted to the official site on the day of the sale, on October 30th 2012: www.starwars.com/news/the-long-winding-and-shapeshifting-trail-to-episodes-vii-viii-ix
In 1978, a Time magazine article reported that the Star Wars Corporation (a subsidiary Lucas had formed for Star Wars) would be producing “Star Wars II [Empire], and then, count them, 10 other planned sequels.” At that time Lucas consistently mentioned 12 films and even created a barebones outline to that effect.
In it, the original trilogy occupied Episodes VI, VII, and VIII; a Clone Wars trilogy took up Episodes II, III, and IV, while Episode I was a “prelude,” Episodes IX through XI were simply left blank – and Episode XII was the “conclusion.”This 12-film outline seems little known. Most people seem to think the original plan was for three trilogies of nine films. And, apparently, it already was, just one year later. Rinzler continues: In 1979, however, Lucas said in an interview on the set of Empire, “The first script was one of six original stories I had written in the form of two trilogies. After the success of Star Wars, I added another trilogy. So now there are nine stories. The original two trilogies were conceived of as six films of which the first film was number four.”I love that remark: "After the success of Star Wars, I added another trilogy." Because you're George Lucas and you can just do that. Another trilogy? Don't mind if I do! However, the 12-film plan certainly condensed very quickly into a 9-film plan, which then stuck around for years, until Lucas began distancing himself from that, around the making of the PT, and even started denying it as media invention. So, originally, Episode IV -- or Episode VI in the 12-film outline -- was preceded by five other movies: a "Clone Wars trilogy" bookended with a prelude and an epilogue/prologue. Rinzler doesn't mention the latter (Episode V) in his text. Just thought I should clarify that. If those first five are essentially taken care of with the PT, then the OT takes care of the next three, which means the Sequel Trilogy begins on Episode IX (per the original outline), with the whole thing closing out on Episode XII, presumably a conclusion to the whole series. Somewhere along the way, the Star Wars saga lost three movies. Each of the trilogies lost an opener or a closer, in effect, which perhaps still feels the case, today. The scheme arguably became a little compacted. Too ambitious even for a man like George Lucas to pull off. But we do seem to have something close to it, in the final structuring of the saga, which is pretty impressive. And, in a way, it means that TROS is both the start and the end of the ST, and the saga, which is a little freaky to think about. The correlation between the episodes -- outlined and realised -- can be expressed the following way: 1978 plan
(12-film outline) | 1977 - 2019
(Skywalker Saga) | Movie Title
(Skywalker Saga) | | I (Prelude) | I | The Phantom Menace | | II | ^ | ^ |
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| | III | II | Attack Of The Clones | | IV | III | Revenge Of The Sith | | V (Epilogue) | ^ | ^ |
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| | VI | IV | A New Hope | | VII | V | The Empire Strikes Back | | VIII | VI | Return Of The Jedi | | IX | VII | The Force Awakens | | X | VIII | The Last Jedi |
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| | XI | IX | The Rise Of Skywalker | | XII (Conclusion) | ^ | ^ |
The orange represents a bookmark installment in the original outline (prelude, epilogue, conclusion). The purple represents a consolidation of two episodes into one in the completed Skywalker Saga. Blank rows serve to emphasise the intervening structural gaps between different segments of the Skywalker Saga. ---------------------------------- Of course, this is only approximate, and just for fun, because we have little idea of what concepts Lucas planned originally, or how he planned to integrate his various story beats (if at all). For instance, elements he might have been thinking of for the epilogue installment in his original outline (Episode V), could have made it into ROTS and AOTC, or ROTS and ANH (the outline also lists it as a prologue), or all three combined, or been withheld entirely for supplementary material. I have chosen to interpret the denouement of ROTS as having some of these potential epilogue elements, however, uniquely above the others. Makes it easier for the table. Equally, when it comes to the Sequel Trilogy, Lucas didn't make it himself and has claimed Disney didn't follow his treatments. So it's problematic thinking that any of them comport with his ideas, let alone that TROS also functions as the original conclusion installment (Episode XII in the 1976 outline). But Abrams has said he constructed it with a sense of inevitability and completion in mind. So, again, for the ease of the table, I've chosen to present it that way. Some people might also argue that Disney produced a better standalone epilogue/prologue installment (Episode V in the 1976 outline), and it's called "Rogue One". However, while it might be a three-act film with the same plot construction of a saga film, and a similar run-time, it differs considerably in style and tone. I do think it deserves an honorary mention, though, because it clearly works for a lot of fans, and certainly tries to bridge the prequel and original trilogies together. Something else I noticed: Taking Pyro's "pyramid" or "castle" structure into account, when you add the sequel installments, with the above structuring in mind, you end up with an (imperfect) flat diamond or rhombus shape: I
II III
IV V VI
VII VIII
IXActually, I don't know what shape that is. Maybe an upside-down chandelier. Although, really, to exactly match the structure implied in the table, it should be: I
II III
IV V VI VII VIII
IX A top-down view of an X-wing? This thing is all about Luke and Poe! Nice list. You do love your George Lucas esoterica. |
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Post by Alexrd on Jan 17, 2020 10:34:55 GMT
and GL said that THX, AG, and Star Wars are their own trilogy When? |
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Post by stampidhd280pro on Jan 17, 2020 11:13:38 GMT
The Directors commentary on the AG Bluray. That or the DVD. But I think it was the Bluray. The themes of his first three movies are basically the same anyway.
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Post by Ingram on Jan 17, 2020 11:21:51 GMT
The title is a bit too referentially cut 'n' paste; Hows about The Dueling Fates or The Final Duel or, hell, maybe even Sabers at Dawn? ...Truce of the Fates, The Jedi and Sith No More. I sense you're having a bit of fun there. For Ingram, this is where the fun begins... Might as well toss a few more in along similar lines: THE FINAL BATTLE THE RECKONING REY EMBRACES THE GHEY DARK REY IN YOUR CLOSET THE REYLO HOLOCRON THE JAR JAR HOLOCRON THE RISE OF BINKS REY AND KYLO GO SWIMMING LANDO GETS A NEW CAPE MY FORCE BEATS YOUR FORCE LET'S ALL GO GET PIZZA POE DAMERON AND THE VR TROOPER OF DOOM ATTACK OF THE FAN SERVICE MIDI-CHLORIANS, WHAT THE HECK ARE THOSE? THE DARK SIDE NOW HAS COOKIES AND BELGIAN WAFFLES PARTY AT THE DIVERSITY CASTLE DO YOU THINK WE USED ENOUGH BLUE? ROSE OF THE SKYWALKER; JUST KIDDING, SHE ISN'T IN IT etc., etc. Hold up. That last one is the best. No, not The Rose of Skywalker but Star Wars: Episode IX - Etc., Etc. Cool speculation. I got a similar LOTR-y vibe from the same part of the description. I think what Rian Johnson was showing in "The Last Jedi" is that Finn and Rose were in a little over their heads, and more like over-eager children discovering the world for the first time. The real miracle of the film is that their plan almost succeeds. Now, granted, you could argue they were rough diamonds in need of a little polishing, and Episode IX could have allowed them to journey to the jewel of the galaxy (what's with all these gemstone metaphors, Cryo?) and have them victorious, as a response/continuation of what Rian started in TLJ. Fine. But there's something that doesn't resonate for me here. I never detected much blossoming romance in TLJ. The romantic vibes were coming "thinly" from Rose -- and they weren't reciprocated. Happens often in life. Even in fairy tales. Oh, to be clear, I never had a problem with their subplot in The Last Jedi, at least not concerning general criticism against it. In the simplest terms, whether or not characters succeed in their storied quest, itself, does not weigh the meaning or relevancy of such as a subplot. I also don't think their relationship in that film necessitated onto (any version of) Episode IX the duty of following through with a love story, per se; I was only entertaining the potential of Trevorrow's script on its own accord.
Jannah's personality didn't stand out after one viewing, but she was at least calmer and less febrile than Rose. Maybe a bit too doe-ish. I'll need to see the film again, but I think they were trying to imply that her personality was still a "work in progress", after heavy stormtrooper conditioning. Or something along those lines. She also has a nice little bond with Finn. He seems to be more of a babe magnet than he realises. And a Poe magnet, too, of course. Well, Rose's comparably hyper-disposition in The Last Jedi for me seemed to serve as a counterpoint to the altogether surrounding glumness or austerity per Rey, Luke and Kylo - Leia, Holdo and the Resistance. A lowly maintenance worker mourning over a dead sis and with nothing to do about it all the sudden afforded a chance at a super-secrete adventure mission to win the day... Rose was sorta the plucky pinball of that movie, bouncing off characters and in-universe settings/premises with points scored in 'gee-whiz' enthusiasm or in moments revealing struck nerves and huffy tempers; a full game was played as a result. Jannah? Jannah is a workable character concept in theory, but the trilogy placement and proportion was all wrong; that one character seem to blatantly take stage at the expense of the other didn't help matters. I'm sure the actress cast was doing her best but the whole choice of it was just awkward. Even the movie as is, it really should have been Finn and Rose mounting the Pony Express atop the Star Destroyer then rescued last minute by Lando.
Except, Lando being there at all is a whole other kettle of gooberfish. I swear to Crom, his very entrance on Pasaana was indistinguishable form one of those aged celebrity guest appearance on a late-60s/early-70s variety show. It was Star Wars meets Laugh-In or Hollywood Squares. Ugh. This movie. *crumples paper cup with rage*I agree with you suggesting that the "shrivelled old man" archetype be changed up for something more feminine and ethereal. But what more teaching could Kylo need? I think he's sick of kneeling and learning. The last act of TLJ places him in the role of Supreme Leader, which means he's the Big Cheese -- albeit, one with temper-tantrum problems (so, like Steve Jobs, then). I just can't see him abandoning that post and seeking out more training. Artefacts? Sure. Little side quests? Have at it. But he otherwise thinks he has what he needs. On the other hand, it's perhaps a bit strange that he isn't more curious about his grandfather's mentor; and who may, in turn, have mentored him. But he was under Snoke's tyrannical tutelage for many years, so I can see him being done with the whole supplicating student thing. Unless you imagine he might be keen to have someone fill the vacuum left by Snoke. He seemingly wanted that to be Rey in TLJ, so it's not crazy he may be seeking someone else out of immense power in Episode IX. Still, the Abrams film works perfectly well in this regard, in my opinion. I think the frustrating thing is that Darth Plagueis was withheld. They went the safer option with crowd-pleasing Palpatine instead. On this too I was mostly conceding to the trajectory, and within the confines, of Trevorrow's script... #StillNotAnOverallFanOfST. So I'm really just tinkering therein with the presented alternatives as they maybe could have best played out. All things being equal, then, I agree that Kylo being done with taking a knee is just as fitting for the third installment as anything proposed otherwise. I still like my idea of a kid Tor Valum, though. I wanna see a kid Tor Valum. A little girl on the face of it, like Alia Atreides from David Lynch's Dune—Driver's patented Kylo expressions opposite that. Well, the Jedi might be undergoing a certain process of renewal in the sequels, but that doesn't mean the Jedi-Sith dichotomy is being transcended or abandoned. That was something TLJ teased, but it also has Luke declaring he won't be the titular "Last Jedi", Rey taking the books, and Yoda reassuring Luke (partially in reference to the books) that Rey basically has what she needs. Plus Luke's taunting of Kylo at the end, sounding deliberately reminiscent of Obi-Wan to Vader, implying he'll be back in the way that his own mentors returned through the Force. TLJ is subversive, but maybe not as much as some people have read into it. Certain verities are still affirmed. If you go back and watch Luke's first lesson to Rey, Luke imploring Rey and trying to convince her the Jedi aren't needed fails -- indeed, his desperately-intoned question is interrupted by her sensing the hidden grotto and going "straight to the dark". Like the film is saying: "Shut up, Luke. Rey won't be answering a question as dumb as that." There's a degree of smoke-and-mirrors teasing in TLJ that isn't real. Middle pictures are allowed to be more lyrical and abstract, and I think Rian had some fun with that. Not to call the picture un-serious. It isn't. It's more like a filter. In my estimation, we get an appropriate resolution and re-alignment of core saga values in TROS, and I appreciate the film for that. Both films. lol Ah, Cryo (and Pyro). We all love you here. Just want you to know that.
You might even say this is in truth an intervention thread. *gently places hand on your shoulder* We're here for you, Cryo. Let the healing begin. 'Cuz, I'm still not entirely convinced we got much of anything beyond a prestige magic trick 'blockbuster' illusion of a Star Wars movie wherein resolutions and core saga values exist in the same way BLTs exist in fast food commercials or as pictured on chain restaurant menus; that stuff is spray-painted, ya know. Hell, such is the only reason I'm bothered to entertain this leaked script in the first place. I've sat through The Rise of Skywalker twice now.
The first viewing I was a 13-yearold riding a tilt-a-whirl by myself: at once neutrally content with the centrifugal forces whilst my budding teenage sophistication mockingly accepted the callowness of it all.
"Did you have fun on your little ride, Ingram?"
"Meh. Can we go to the video store now?"
 80s approximation of 13-yearold IngramThe second viewing I was beside myself—dispassionate, clinical: I was Wilford Brimley from The Thing.
"What we're talking about here is an organism, that imitates other life-forms, and it imitates them perfectly. When this thing attacked our dogs, it tried to digest 'em, absorb them. And in the process shape its own cells to imitate them. This, for instance. That's not dog. lt's imitation."
 Blair, watching TROSBut I'm trying, Cryo. I'm trying. Before, I spoke in similarities with The Mummy but, shooting for a broader spectrum, the following grab-bag of pricey Hollywood mainstream sci-fi/fantasy entertainment produced by suits for the masses demonstrates generally unremarkable films of no lasting consequence, films I would likely never argue for their heightened merits, as masterworks, yet squarely enjoy for either their intermittent odd moves or palatable junk-cinema thrills, or both.
Stargate
Jupiter Ascending 47 Ronin
Jurassic Park III Clash of the Titans (1981)
Aquaman Predator 2 Gods of Egypt
Again, nothing that would make a list meant to impress fellow cinephiles, yet all of which I enjoyed more than The Rise of Skywalker...[wait for it]...butonlyslightly. Point being, I can maybe see Episode IX making such a list. One day. It'd take time. And I'll have to divorce the movie so absolutely from its banner title. I'll have to watch it in isolation, far apart from my annual Star Wars marathon, just as a one-offer piece of brain-gumming candy. That's gonna be the best chance for me to get the most from this movie upon future viewings. If nothing else, at least I actually plan on rewatching this movie in the moons to come, which is more than I can say for The Force Awakens. That's something, right?
Kylo confronting a Phantom Vader? I prefer the tease in TROS of Rey being matched -- albeit fleetingly -- against her own dark reflection: Dark Rey, Empress Rey, Flaming Red String-wielding Sith Witch Rey, or whatever the hell actually happens there. Oh, boy. TROS is full of great little moments like that.  You're really making this difficult: I hated that scene. I know, I'm sorry. It just rubbed me all wrong and marks one of those moments where I am most cynical towards the movie. It was so typical of Abrams' sensibilities. The story weight of it wasn't there for me, at all, as Rey's entire tilt towards the Dark Side never much exceeded lip-service monologues. I must have missed the pipe-laying narrative that lead up to this juncture because Sith Rey with her switchblade saber seemed to exist secondarily in the movie merely by default, as nonpayment, just so it could exist primarily in the trailer as a cheap OMG! hook for normies. Maybe I'll get more from it next time. Right now, though, all I've got is a bad taste in my mouth. Still, I suppose you're right in that Abrams' movie by contrast kept the ball mostly in Rey's court. I don't think the movie really blue-balled Reylo fans. Maybe a bit. But look at the Trevorrow script (or the summary we have): Where is Reylo in that? I caught only one allusion to it when Rey is described, a la Anakin, of having dark dreams of Kylo. They could really only do so much "Reylo" stuff in the films themselves. But something is better than nothing. It's mostly better being confined to fan fiction and fan speculation. It allows people to run riot. I never had any investment in Reylo. I just thought it an amusing pop-subculture phenomenon and how the movie in question delivers only to snatch away in the same instant, permanently; and how many a fan felt cheated as a result. There's always been a weird push 'n' pull tension with Star Wars for teasing sensuality while conclusively remaining sexless, of which Reylo is perhaps the most arrant specimen. That might actually be one hand that was played close to the vest early on, across the better part of the ST, Abrams and Johnson together, with the intent to hold certain fandom whimsies up to the very end.
That said, I do kinda feel for my boy Kylo. Dude was well on his way to sliding into third base.
But then... the Force: the galaxy's ultimate cockblocker. |
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Post by Ingram on Jan 17, 2020 19:53:54 GMT
I've settled on a final viewing order for the saga. I never imagined it would work this way, but it works the best. Someone on the other message board had pointed out that the saga had not really resulted in 3 trilogies as its structure but a prologue, an epilogue, and two duologies flanking a central trilogy. This was something I was starting to notice too, so I ended up basing this viewing order on that observation: STAR WARS Episode I: The Phantom Menace RADIOLAND MURDERS STAR WARS Episode II: Attack of the Clones STAR WARS Episode III: Revenge of the Sith AMERICAN GRAFFITI STAR WARS Episode IV: A New Hope STAR WARS Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back STAR WARS Episode VI: Return of the Jedi MORE AMERICAN GRAFFITI STAR WARS Episode VII: The Force Awakens STAR WARS Episode VIII: The Last Jedi THX 1138 STAR WARS Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker Not quite sure I'm following here. I'd be interested to hear a broad thematic outline explaining the structure of this viewing order. I haven't any enthusiasm for More American Graffiti, for instance, as it's not a particularly memorable film and only thinly echoes Lucas' conceptual vision of the original. Of course, by that standard I'd probably shit-can two of the ST installments (1/3rd of the Disne-era output) as well. I do like the idea of Radioland Murders being thrown into the mix, though, and agree that the Indy series warrants its own separate momentum. But then I would argue Red Tails as a warranted addition. There's a lot of post-Prequels Lucas in that one.
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Post by stampidhd280pro on Jan 17, 2020 20:33:27 GMT
Radioland Murders works as a little murder mystery but adds nothing to the story, like the prequels. In More American Graffiti there's the major theme of defecting from a pointless war, and you sit around waiting for our heroes to die, like the sequels.
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You're really making this difficult: I hated that scene. I know, I'm sorry. It just rubbed me all wrong and marks one of those moments where I am most cynical towards the movie. It was so typical of Abrams' sensibilities. The story weight of it wasn't there for me, at all, as Rey's entire tilt towards the Dark Side never much exceeded lip-service monologues. I must have missed the pipe-laying narrative that lead up to this juncture because Sith Rey with her switchblade saber seemed to exist secondarily in the movie merely by default, as nonpayment, just so it could exist primarily in the trailer as a cheap OMG! hook for normies. Maybe I'll get more from it next time. Right now, though, all I've got is a bad taste in my mouth. Still, I suppose you're right in that Abrams' movie by contrast kept the ball mostly in Rey's court.