The Rise of Skywalker: Discussion

@archduke
here's an interesting piece from screen rant
screenrant.com/star-wars-rise-skywalker-jedi-wrong-george-lucas/

@Alexrd
ok what did the author of the article get wrong about it?

I did see Rise of Skywalker. It was as I expected it to be. Just as disjointed as the rest of the Sequel Trilogy.

FFS I cannot stand JJ Abrams in Star Wars. He is just horrible. How is it that Lucas is demonized for his writing and directing and Abrams gets a pass?

There is the one scene that just sums this entire trilogy up.

Once the rebellions, or resistance, or rebellion or rebsistance or whatever the hell they call themselves, finds out that Palpatine is back, the ensuing scene is just so ridiculous.

So they find out Palpatine is back, and they are all standing around in a big circle all shocked. How could Palpatine be back? And in true disjointed, makes no sense, JJ Abrams fashion... some resistance person whom I don't ever remember seeing, or knowing or caring about, blurts out "Cloning, Dark Science, Only stuff the Sith know about"....

What in the actual F#ck... I just wanted to bash my face into the back of the seat in front of me. So "Mr. F#cking No name resistance douchebag" here has all the answers, except they are answers only the Sith know about, so how does he know about it, if only the sith know about it. Not much of a secret if Mr. f#cking No name resistance douchebag" knows the secret exists. Sure he may not know the exact details, but, hey he can just pull that information out of his ass well if properly motivated I am sure.

Holy mother of god this trilogy. So that;s what it takes to explain how Palpatine returns, be JJ Abrams real life buddy? JJ's buddy from Lost needs a speaking line, so hey, we will have him loosely explain away how Palpatine returns.. cause you know, some random resistance schmuck knows about the Sith, when everyone else seemingly still can't remember about the Jedi.

No surprise here that I did not like this movie.
Reylo... just absolute trash. "Ben?" she says... Bitch! You don't know who Ben is! You never knew who Ben was! You've only ever known Kylo! Ya know, the guy that mind raped you, the guy that strapped you to a table and abused you... but it's "Ben?" and smoochie time!

Jesus, they even screwed up Kylo's.. I mean "Ben?"'s redemption. His redemption meant nothing. Rey finished what she had to do, she killed the Emperor, saved the resistance, stopped the Empire or FIrst Order, or whatever the hell it was, and SAVED THE GALAXY... so what was the point of Kylo saving her? By saving her, he didn't bring her back so she could finish anything. She did everything before she died. They just needed to bring her back for that smooch with the murdering scumbag.. ben or kylo


OK... so.. yeah. Just a narrative disaster of a movie.

With that said.. even though I still didn't like Palaptine coming back because of it's problems with the chosen one prophecy, man, there could have been a good story there to tell if they would have started the ST knowing where they wanted to go with it.

This is why it is such a narrative and disjointed mess. There is room for a good story to tell where Palpatine comes back and he is looking for his Granddaughter. But because these asshats can't spend more than 2 months writing a script and Disney wants to make it's billions right away, they screw up would I will admit, may have been a very good story if they had thought about it from the start of the ST.

A situation where Palpatine comes back, not because of cloning or because of "dark science" but because of the Dark Side willing it to happen, just as Anakin was the product of the Will of the FOrce, that would have been a decent way to bring him back without destroying Anakin's sacrifice. Palpatine died, but, the Dark Side of the FOrce, that unnatural side, manifests itself and in doing so, reconstitutes its most powerful Sith Lord, Palpatine.

In order to make this permanent, one of Palpatines blood relatives is needed. TFA should have started with 3 Solo children, Rey, Ben, and BOZO for lack of a better name. Ben turns to the darkside, destroys the new Jedi temple the 3 were training in, Luke takes Rey and Bozo with him into seclusion to train, blah blah, there's TFA for the most part with hints of something from the dark side coming back. TLJ should have been the revelation that Rey, is not really a Solo child, that Luke and Leia realized that there were dark forces trying to hunt down Palpatine's blood relatives, so Leia and Han adopted baby Rey Palpatine in order to protect her. So TLJ is teh revelaiton that Rey is really the granddaughter of the most evil man in the Galaxy. The Rise of Skywalker is her dealing with that, Bozo Solo helping her, and them facing Palpatine. Ben Redeems himself when Rey is killed, giving his life force for hers, she then comes back to life to kill her Grand daddy with the help of Bozo Solo.

Easy! Boom... Nostalgia! Twists! Skywalker bloodline continues with Bozo Solo, redemption arc..

Instead with get this...

Ugh... Just such a disappointment. It figures they would wait til the last movie to actually tickle on something that might have been interesting for the whole sequel...


Did I mention how much I hate Reylo?

Hey I bet you think you’re clever. Except Luke didn’t know what to expect what was in the cave, that’s why he asked. I didn’t have to ask, I knew what the movie was about. So there was no ghostly Vader coming out of the mist to scare me into reacting.

So nice try kid, but, don’t get cocky!

Luke actually missed Yoda's most important lesson:

"Clear your mind of questions."

But then he starts bugging him about the cave.

If you go looking for problems, you can always find them.

A subtle component of that sequence which most fans have apparently overlooked.

And yes, Luke went into the cave with an expectation of encountering something sinister/disagreeable, which the cave (or the recesses of his own mind) rewarded him with. A phantom echo.

Remember where the movie begins? That's right: on Echo Base. With another cave encounter involving Luke, that ends with Luke violently reacting to the threat he perceives approaching him.

The ghostly aspect of TROS is broadly:

a) All of it
b) Reylo

Evidently, you dislike both, so one can charge that you into the movie with your weapon drawn, fully expecting to lash out at it, the moment you returned home and were able to log on and report your feelings about it.

Of course, the cave analogy also applies to every other reaction to the film, positive and negative, by one and all. But Star Wars fans, in general, do not have shining records when it comes to appreciating more Star Wars, especially in this "saga" line of films.

Negativity is the obvious choice where these sequel films go. It is almost obligatory for prequel fans to dislike them. What I like about people like Pyrogenic, stampid, and a few others elsewhere, like HevyDevy (still posting to TFN), is that they buck that trend, and are perfectly comfortable treating these movies as canonical items in their own right.

Of course, I'm not trying to assume the high ground over anyone. All responses are legitimate. But in short, as far as my current feelings go, I'd probably call TROS clunky, but compelling -- which really goes for all the SW movies, to one degree or another. I like the fact that it feels like a much weirder version of TFA, and is also quite the gear change after the murky mundanity and tonal aloofness of TLJ. In that way, it's quite like ROTJ. Some people might have wanted a bolder conclusion to the saga after the sepulchral majesty of TESB, but that isn't what happened (well, it sorta did, and sorta didn't). This time, you could argue that TROS manifests a more reactionary, fan-service-y quality than ROTJ did, but I'm okay with that. I like the shakeup and the conspicuous reversion to something a bit more classically "Star Wars"; while TROS, even in overtly purring in a "throwback" register, retains its own texture and its own schizoid personality. Sort of the ideal blend. In my opinion, anyway. Ironically, while little of TROS' storyline is surprising, much of the film is oddly invigorating and fresh -- perhaps in contrasting so starkly with the film that precedes it. I love how Star Wars has all these contrasts and intra-trilogy dissonances within it. Just in being so defiant on that level (vis-a-vis TLJ), TROS feels like the perfect way to close the saga, to me.

Good points. A whole new dimension is also added in terms of viewing order. With three trilogies to play with, there are many more access points, and you can input longer access codes.



Oh, yes!!! I've already noticed how much of the dialogue in TPM, in particular, has added implications. For example, when Qui-Gon is demanding that the Jedi Council understand the significance of Anakin, his stating, "You *must* see it", is rather a lot like Luke giving Rey her first lesson in the all-encompassing nature of the Force: "Can you *feel* that?" Rey, in response, tells Luke, "There's something else", while Qui-Gon in the bongo quips, "There's always a bigger fish". Speaking of fish: Luke with the big fish is clearly set up in ANH, when he casually boasts in the rebel briefing room about bullseyeing womprats, which "[aren't] much bigger than two meters". And the big fish theme is nicely continued from TPM (the film cuts to Palpatine as Darth Sidious after Qui-Gon utters that remark) with the other saga bookend, where Palpatine is revealed to be the big fish behind Snoke. Similarly, when Maul talks with his master about them revealing themselves to the Jedi and having their revenge, we get a grandiose, collectivised form of this in TROS, when all the Sith (through Palpatine) battle all the Jedi (through Rey). Qui-Gon's uncertainty about Anakin's high blood count during the midi-chlorian test is also played out rather poignantly in Rey's journey. Was Anakin really the Chosen One; or was some wider scheme already underway? Also in the blood test scene, Anakin looks up at the sky, marvelling at the sequinned stars, telling Qui-Gon he wants to be "the first one to see them all". Well, at the end of TROS, Rey essentially does this, gazing up and hearing the voices of her Jedi ancestors. Which is also like a fulfillment of Qui-Gon's prophecy to Anakin about the midis: "When you quiet your mind, you'll hear them speaking to you."

People may think Rey's heritage in TROS is desperately contrived, but it allows the writers/filmmakers to pursue some decent, life-affirming themes. Also, in lockstep with what you just wrote, you can see in TLJ how Kylo is taking the path of Anakin and "focusing on the negative", when he bashes Rey's parents for being nobodies that sold her off for drinking money. Isn't this the sort of disappointing, regrettable evil Kylo sees in the faces of everyone, like the demonic way Luke appears in his re-telling of the night Luke confronted him, to Rey? You realise how cracked and twisted his psyche is with every new film. Having Kylo reform the mask and highlight the breaking points with bright-red, lava-like paint was an inspired choice. 

It's also great how certain themes and motifs carry through all nine. Like trees. The TF topples ancient trees on Naboo in Episode I, Anakin and Padme have their first kiss and marry under a tree in Episode II, there's the Wookiee planet in Episode III, the rebel base on a jungle world in Episode IV, the tree cave in Episode V, the forest moon of Endor in Episode VI, Rey hiding from Kylo in the forest and later battling him in a snow forest in Episode VII, the ancient Jedi tree in Episode VIII, and Rey training in the forest that the rebels have made their new home in Episode IX. Plus a tree analogy in the prologue to the original film, describing how the Republic "rotted from within". Not to mention the title of Episode II where much of this rotting takes place ("attack of the clones" = "attachment of the twigs"). This kinda stuff is really cool and very satisfying once you notice it.

So well done to JJ for giving us ice/snow, desert, and forest/jungle worlds in his installments. It may seem cliched in TFA, but TROS justifies his choices, I think. These are very environmental movies, and those environments all convey vibrant, steadfast motifs. While it feels like the sacred Jedi texts could be stored nowhere else but an ancient, parched tree, awaiting a new reader. Which also neatly takes care of the advanced Force powers we see in the ST, especially VIII and IX. Luke and Rey read the texts; or parts of them, at least. And Kylo learned a thing or two from Rey. Maybe she even imprinted her powers onto him, as he seemed to do to her in TFA. As ever: balance.

I've learned to chill out about this Sequel Trilogy as it arced to conclusion. When you see the full thing, it makes sense. In a different way to the previous trilogies, maybe. But difference isn't always bad. If nothing else, in the middle of the ST, we return to the birthplace of the Jedi (yeah, Lucas didn't make it, bla bla...), and that gives the third trilogy its own mythic grandeur, its own subtextual lore, its own raison d'etre. It should be emotionally and intellectually satisfying. It actually adds something that wasn't there before. We are bound to discover more bounties in time.  

But you are assuming, and presuming to lecture me on how I should see and do things. We are not talking about a mysterious cave here where Luke is not expecting a ghostly Vader to appear. I knew the story, I knew the beats, I knew the spoilers, I knew every detail of the movie. I "watched" the movie before I ever watched it, when I read spoilers, and breakdowns, and leaks, and forums, and articles. I know what I like, I know what I don't like.

This as is the posts from the other poster is a pretentious way of criticizing someone because YOU liked the movies.

Instead of allowing for other individuals to form opinions the way they want to, you are presuming that just because it wasn't done your way, well than it must be wrong. 

As I stated earlier in this thread. One of the bigger problems with the Prequel bashers, wasn't their criticism of the Prequels, it was there attacks against others that if we did not see it their way, well than there was  something wrong with us. The last few posts here directed at me, have that same smell.  After all that us Prequel Lovers have gone through, I wouldn't think I would have to come into a place made up of mostly Prequel Lovers and have to face the same judgement for not liking the ST that I faced for Liking the PT!

Or can we trust each other as reasonable individuals to form our own opinions on things without judgement and lecturing?

"Dissen gonna be berry berry bad..."
*immediately steps in shit - accidentally, of course*
("It's not my fault!")

You're making quite a leap there. It's not about cognitive ability. It's more about you spoiling the movie and going in with bad vibes in advance. I don't see how the movie could ever have acquitted itself and been well-regarded by you given the knowledge/baggage you went in with. That's all.



Exactly. And Luke's morals are such that he sees Vader as a bad man: a creature, an entity, a wraith. He doesn't care about the wider totality of Vader or what's behind the mask. Hence him lashing out in the cave when the apparition of Vader steps toward him. 



He did tell him that. In the form of an illuminating koan. But Luke actively distrusts Yoda in that instant and disregards his warning. And as I've said twice now, Yoda tells Luke to cease all questioning, even before Luke gets anywhere near the cave or becomes aware of it. Of course, after Luke has placed Yoda down, it's then when Luke detects the cave and Yoda tells him he has to go inside. The point is made that Luke is only selectively listening to Yoda. 
 


If you think you know the movie so well in advance, isn't seeing it a pointless exercise? Aren't you just paying for your ticket and sitting down to validate your pre-existing suspicions? You went into it with certain beliefs, and a desire to be proven right. That's what it sounds like to me. 



Thanks. But this isn't about me. I'm not presuming to know you. I'm going exactly off what you said. You literally said you acquired every trinket of information you could on this movie in advance. There's a reason, perhaps, such material is generally referred to as "spoiler" material.  



That's not the analogy of the cave. That's more the analogy of Luke encountering Yoda for the first time. I'm not presuming to know you. But you literally spoke about the film as if seeing it and intensely disliking it were simply a foregone conclusion. Other than that, carry on.