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Post by smittysgelato on May 19, 2022 21:44:40 GMT
A lot of children's movies gave me the impression that romance was a wonderful and easy thing when I was growing up. The Prequels smashed that illusion for me, and since then time has only proven to me more and more that romance can really lead you astray.
At the same time, by leading you astray, it does teach you something. So...it paradoxically leads you astray and sets you on a truer path.
As you get older you start to ask yourself: if romance isn't the be all end all, then what is?
Maybe there are biological factors. My sex drive isn't as high as it was in my teens and early 20's, that's for sure! (Kind of a relief to be honest).
This is what is great about the OT. You get to see Anakin go beyond the romance to something more.
Additional thoughts on ANH and Empire often being confined to indoor environments: Again, that's the beauty of digital cinema. You aren't so limited by sets. However, once Anakin goes into that suit, you get to feel his confinement throughout the OT, until things open up again in ROTJ. That works really well for the story. You get a feeling of incubation from that. As Vader's soul incubates and is finally released, that is mimicked by the environments.
I think this feeling of confinement or claustrophobia is why I preferred ROTJ as a kid. Kid's naturally gravitate to the outdoors. The confinement of the indoor settings is very uncomfortable for a kid. Maybe that's part of the reason the confrontation with Vader in Empire was soooo scary as kid?
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Post by tonyg on May 19, 2022 21:51:09 GMT
The other thing about AOTC (of course: there are so many "things" about AOTC) is that it's a very spacious and open movie -- the exact opposite of TESB, which is cramped, narrow, claustrophobic. TESB is a minaret. AOTC is a whole palace and the countryside around it. Yet big events are also piling up at alarming speed and the galaxy is going to hell in a handbasket. There are such compelling tensions to the movie that make it really stand out and great fun to return to. Yeah! And the whole hangar interior is like some liminal or suspended space in which nothing is really won or lost -- except for Anakin being emasculated when Dooku removes his arm. Which itself feels like some oddly punctuated event. Anakin's delayed destiny with the machine. Unlike Luke losing his hand to Vader in TESB, there is no yelp of pain, and no great revelation that follows. Anakin is just tossed aside like a piece of garbage -- the "Chosen One" showing courage, but having failed to produce a net-positive result. At the same time, the attachment between Anakin and Padme is close to nakedly revealed when Padme runs into the hangar and they embrace at the end. The narrative of ROTS is expertly set up in this moment, with both Jedi males a little wounded but still relatively "intact", Yoda hobbling along but harbouring greater worries than ever, a white-coloured Padme focused solely on Anakin, and most ominously: the appearance of clone troopers, who now fill up these big spaces and "guard" the Jedi, or trail them, wherever they go. If AOTC does one thing exceptionally well, then it's to suggest the opening of Pandora's box (Palpatine's box?) in the grand finale. There's a strong sense that the SW galaxy is now a changed place and can't easily be put back to how it used to be. Even if nothing else could be discerned through the colourful noise of the last 45 minutes, that quality is overwhelmingly undeniable, I think. Oh, Natalie was one of my big crushes, too. In fact, my first real crush was on a girl called Natalie in junior school. I really liked Shania Twain when I was younger, too. I probably had more of a man crush on Dean Cain from "Lois And Clark". But Hayden is definitely a man-crush-worthy object. And yes, while his hair is fine in AOTC, it's more striking in ROTS. I think I tried to grow mine out to look a bit like this. Unfortunately, my hair is thinner today. Maybe I could do Watto in a few years. Yep. In 2016, Ewan reminisced about the way things on Episode I were more practical, and also recalled his own naivete at the time: www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/ewan-mcgregor-recalls-embarrassing-first-939828/He also lamented how things changed as the prequels went along: He gave the example of Yoda back on Episode I. Yoda was still a puppet then, and Ewan seemed to find that more impressive/enjoyable to work against: Still, a CG Yoda brought certain benefits and nuances that were hard to realise with a puppet. This is obvious from the first scene Yoda appears in in Episode II. Ewan clearly desired more of the OT-type experience he must have fancied he was going to experience. But the reality was different because Lucas had every intent of pushing the envelope -- and wherever possible, cutting costs -- anyplace he could. Perhaps Ewan didn't fully appreciate how much of a boundary-pusher George Lucas actually is until working with him on the prequels and seeing his methods in action. When I showed the films to someone, they made the observation that ANH and TESB spend a lot of time inside spaceships, which I never made note of before. When we got to the part in RotJ when the heroes go to Endor, they said "It's nice to see the sky again", which I thought was funny but true. We watched the films in chronological order, so they saw the prequels first, which they also liked more. The prequels opened up the canvas so much and expanded the galaxy. Especially with TPM and AotC, the first color that comes to mind is the green of grass or the blue of the sky. With ANH and TESB it's the grey of the spaceship interiors. The prequels are just a breath of fresh air in that way. RotJ is an exception for the OT, and green represents that film well. I think your idea that RotJ was "the first prequel" holds a lot of merit. It opened up the world more than its predecessors. But AotC might be the most open and exotic Star Wars film. You only need to look at the banner at the top of this page to see the breadth of the world in the film. It's really a magnificent vision. With Anakin losing his arm, it only feels like a belated mark on his flesh, when the true mark was already carved in his soul during the death of his mother and the Tusken massacre. That was the revelation for him. Luke gets his hand cut off and the revelation at the same time. But Anakin also loses more of his flesh than Luke, signifying his greater pain, or perhaps the pain he meted out to the Tuskens. Luke only "killed" a vision. I never connected the hug between Anakin and Padmé in the hangar to their reunion in RotS, but you made it click like two puzzle pieces. Obi-Wan gives them a look, and Yoda is right there too. Both characters would find out the truth in RotS. Perhaps Yoda knew all along. In Clone Wars, Anakin says "Our love should not be hidden like it's some immoral thing." Well, you didnt try to hide it just then. But in this raw moment, they must have almost let it slip. This image from AotC is more and more compelling the more I look and think about it. You have all the central players there, a secret in plain sight, the evocative beams of light stabbing down on the scene from the holes in the ceiling, clones guarding the perimeter like they are helping keep this hidden truth an unspoken deal between the three Jedi, Obi-Wan in the dark with Anakin and Padmé but separate from them, and Yoda the only one in the light.  3x01_1289.jpg) 3x02_0333.jpg)  I understand Ewan's plight if he really thought all along that they were going to do things almost exactly like in the OT. But on AotC there were full sets like Dex's diner, and they had Dex's and the Kaminoans' voice actors rehearse the scene with him the same way Jar Jar and Watto were done in TPM, so he did have something real to react to. ArchdukeOfNaboo, that's right, I am a 90s kid. That is an interesting idea you propose, my perspective has changed quite a bit in some ways. I will share more of my thoughts later, but now I have to sleep.  These people that you showed the movies are my kind of people. I like ROTJ most of the OT for various reasons but the green, full of life Endor forest is one of them. As we spoke in another forum, SW are romantic movies: not in the Hollywood way but in the literature one: the romantism glorifies the past (the civilized days before the Empire) and the simple life in harmony with the natural environment. It is very decadent, non progressive movement (that I really like) and in this aspect ST is out of space for me: it looks retro, but is in fact progressive and in a way, anti SW. The prequels are in full rhyme with the idea of the glorious past: they are slow, rich and color and worlds with more melancholic pace (except , to a degree ROTS but it is the transition to the next era) and this can be seen in its peak in AOTC. By the way, the contrast between Naboo and Kamino can be seen even in the set design: Kamino is impossibly sterile, artificial and surreal; Naboo is natural and pristine. Although I very much like the scene of the encounter between Lama Su and Obi Wan. The seats are just unique: like lumuniscent rain drops and I like how smooth and sleek is everything, like the Kaminoans themselves. |
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Post by smittysgelato on May 19, 2022 22:05:19 GMT
Those shots of Anakin and Padme embracing each other really highlights the "open-secret" aspect of their relationship haha.
George is based in a pretty "progressive mind-set," being a product of the 60's. However, his "progressivism" is based in the idea that the spirit has decayed, and is in that sense romantic, and looks to what has been lost from the past. In that sense, that is why Star Wars is sometimes accused of being regressive.
Your comments actually accidentally point out how flawed the regressive/progressive dichotomy is. It isn't really one way or the other. Progress can introduce necessary improvements but also destroy what was good about the past. Wanting to reclaim what was good about the past isn't necessrily regressive, but it isn't really progressive either because it isn't trying to get away from the past either.
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Post by Alexrd on May 20, 2022 8:31:42 GMT
I'll go as far as to say that "progressive", as is used nowadays, is a misnomer.
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Post by Subtext Mining on May 21, 2022 19:50:47 GMT
It's said in the Making Of pieces that Lucas wanted ESB to be more of a character piece. And for this reason he hired Kershner specifically, who was also into the idea of making it more character driven. And that is part of what makes it feel so different. However, I can't help but tend to find AotC an even deeper character piece. Even through the high society façade. Best since Empire?  |
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Post by Cryogenic on May 21, 2022 20:43:20 GMT
It's said in the Making Of pieces that Lucas wanted ESB to be more of a character piece. And for this reason he hired Kershner specifically, who was also into the idea of making it more character driven. And that is part of what makes it feel so different. However, I can't help but tend to find AotC an even deeper character piece. Even through the high society façade. Best since Empire?  Probably what all the fanboys subconsciously recoiled against. A character study with romance. If TESB was tentative in these regards, offering screwball banter and chaste lessons on the Force delivered as sermons about trusting in oneself, AOTC is positively farouche -- like its central character. Yet there is also, as you just suggested, an unexpected (for Star Wars) facade to get past. Polite, stuffy society, but with Anakin, Jar Jar, and goofy robots. The original production notes sent out to the press in 2002 underline the ambitious nature of the film: www.cinema.com/articles/854/star-wars-episode-ii-attack-of-the-clones-production-notes.phtmlHere's the part about Anakin: And the following part about the romance: Like the movie itself, there's such a sprawling density to the production notes (the main reason I didn't copy the whole thing: it's almost 9,000 words). It's hard to imagine another Star Wars film -- or another Star Wars anything -- requiring this level of eloquence and detail. |
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Post by tonyg on May 22, 2022 12:41:01 GMT
I'll go as far as to say that "progressive", as is used nowadays, is a misnomer. I used progressive mostly in its literal meaning, i.e. someone who is oriented towards the future. No matter in what epoque Lucas was born, he is someone fascinated by the past: the simplest proof is that he studied anthropology. He is not retrograde, as he uses the most modern technology of its time to tell stories, but he is definitely fascinated by the past. Using the technology as instrument is not the same as idolizing it. The new directors, i.e. the sequel team is doing it all the opposite: they use the technology ritualistically (we recreate the OT techniques i.e. we are recreating the old vibe) while they introduce the most contemporary ideology and values while Lucas is doing all the opposite: he is telling a very rich classic (and in the same time peculiar) fairytale in space, using the most modern, groundbreaking technology. So Lucas is romantic but is not retrograde, which is not the same. His movies are romantic but again,they are not retrograde. The past is very important in the world of Lucas SW. The rebels want to defeat the Empire and to make the things as they should be (and as they were) because this is the right thing to do, not "let the past die". Of course, this should be completely new world (after Endor) but a world that will never forget what is was when it was good and even when it was bad. In the prequel era we see the glimpses of the wonderful Golden era of the Republic that even in the time of its sunset was fascinating. And I think indeed AOTC is the epitome of that with its amazing world building , its sophisticated social relations and its very calm melancholic pace (ok, with some exceptions). |
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on May 22, 2022 19:15:18 GMT
Seeker of the Whills I've never noticed until now that Padmé is on her tippy toes in that frame. It's one that quickly appears and vanishes within a split second in the film, isn't it? I'd always thought of it as a blurry hug, but now that I think of it, it is quite a romantic embrace for such a public setting.
I doubt Yoda really knew what they were up to, he couldn't even recognise a Sith Lord in front of him, but TCW does imply that Obi-Wan had an idea, though he and his padowan would never be able to have a proper adult conversation about it. Ahsoka definitely knew, she wasn't stupid.
Like the movie itself, there's such a sprawling density to the production notes (the main reason I didn't copy the whole thing: it's almost 9,000 words). It's hard to imagine another Star Wars film -- or another Star Wars anything -- requiring this level of eloquence and detail. Sign me up.
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Post by stampidhd280pro on May 22, 2022 22:57:03 GMT
Seeker of the Whills I've never noticed until now that Padmé is on her tippy toes in that frame. It's one that quickly appears and vanishes within a split second in the film, isn't it? I'd always thought of it as a blurry hug, but now that I think of it, it is quite a romantic embrace for such a public setting.
I doubt Yoda really knew what they were up to, he couldn't even recognise a Sith Lord in front of him, but TCW does imply that Obi-Wan had an idea, though he and his padowan would never be able to have a proper adult conversation about it. Ahsoka definitely knew, she wasn't stupid.
Like the movie itself, there's such a sprawling density to the production notes (the main reason I didn't copy the whole thing: it's almost 9,000 words). It's hard to imagine another Star Wars film -- or another Star Wars anything -- requiring this level of eloquence and detail. Sign me up.
"Use your feelings Obi-Wan, and find him you will." Yoda knew. He suspected Palpatine too of course, but that's another topic. |
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Post by Cryogenic on May 22, 2022 23:49:25 GMT
Seeker of the Whills I've never noticed until now that Padmé is on her tippy toes in that frame. It's one that quickly appears and vanishes within a split second in the film, isn't it? I'd always thought of it as a blurry hug, but now that I think of it, it is quite a romantic embrace for such a public setting. I doubt Yoda really knew what they were up to, he couldn't even recognise a Sith Lord in front of him, but TCW does imply that Obi-Wan had an idea, though he and his padowan would never be able to have a proper adult conversation about it. Ahsoka definitely knew, she wasn't stupid.
Sign me up.
"Use your feelings Obi-Wan, and find him you will." Yoda knew. He suspected Palpatine too of course, but that's another topic. Yeah. What's worse than the Jedi Order "finding out" that Anakin and Padme are married? It's the Jedi Order not wanting to "find out". |
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on May 23, 2022 0:23:50 GMT
"Use your feelings Obi-Wan, and find him you will." Yoda knew. He suspected Palpatine too of course, but that's another topic.
If Yoda knows, then the Jedi Order knows. If the Jedi Order know, then we have serious plot holes in our story, which I don't believe we have.
Your Palpatine assertion is hogwash.
It's a debate for another thread.
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Post by stampidhd280pro on May 23, 2022 1:13:03 GMT
"Use your feelings Obi-Wan, and find him you will." Yoda knew. He suspected Palpatine too of course, but that's another topic.
If Yoda knows, then the Jedi Order knows. If the Jedi Order know, then we have serious plot holes in our story, which I don't believe we have.
Your Palpatine assertion is hogwash.
It's a debate for another thread.
They sensed the dark side around Palpatine, and had Anakin spy on him. Nobody cared about Anakin and Padme, that's not a plot hole. That's just subtext. What the Jedi thought Anakin and Padme were having tea and cookies? |
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Post by Cryogenic on May 23, 2022 1:16:00 GMT
"Use your feelings Obi-Wan, and find him you will." Yoda knew. He suspected Palpatine too of course, but that's another topic. If Yoda knows, then the Jedi Order knows. If the Jedi Order know, then we have serious plot holes in our story, which I don't believe we have. Your Palpatine assertion is hogwash.
It's a debate for another thread.
It's a juicy topic and could maybe go in another thread, but it's definitely not hogwash. To do proper credit to Yoda's character, we must assume he knows more than he lets on about a lot of things. And look at the glimpses we do get on this particular matter: Anakin seeks his counsel about his visions, and Yoda asks if his visions involve Anakin himself or "someone [he knows]". Anakin hesitatingly answers that it's the latter ("Someone"). Later, when Anakin pledges himself to Sidious, Yoda senses his submission from across the galaxy. Just like, in AOTC, he feels that Anakin is in "terrible pain" after losing his mother. Yoda is not a stupid character. There's such a thing as not wanting to acknowledge the truth, even when it's right under your nose. Hence Yoda's instruction to Obi-Wan after all has gone to shit: "Search your feelings." Which Vader also says to Luke on Cloud City. And then there are Yoda's sad, knowing looks on Polis Massa when it is revealed that Padme is carrying twins. The films are actually a lot more sophisticated than you're giving them credit for. Are our characters doing that much to conceal themselves? I would argue they're not. Not long after meeting back up with Padme, Anakin openly tells Obi-Wan that "just being around her again is intoxicating". Later, Obi-Wan hides this concern from Yoda and Mace, telling them in a more general way that he doesn't believe Anakin is ready for his first assignment on his own. In a deleted version of the same scene (between just Obi-Wan and Mace), Obi-Wan flatly tells Mace that Anakin has a fatal attachment to Padme and that it has been there since he was a little boy, even going as far as to say he now sees the error of his ways and believes he made a mistake in wanting to train Anakin. Lucas evidently felt this was a bit much, but it gives a flavour of what all the Jedi are doing in the finished movies: downplaying their anxieties and lying to themselves. If Yoda knows, then the Jedi Order knows. If the Jedi Order know, then we have serious plot holes in our story, which I don't believe we have. Your Palpatine assertion is hogwash.
It's a debate for another thread.
They sensed the dark side around Palpatine, and had Anakin spy on him. Exactly. They were suspicious of Palpatine even before the outbreak of the Clone Wars. This was established back in Episode II with Yoda's iconic "stink-eye" reaction toward Palpatine's oily, overdone mannerisms:  |
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on May 23, 2022 1:54:30 GMT
They sensed the dark side around Palpatine, and had Anakin spy on him. Nobody cared about Anakin and Padme, that's not a plot hole. That's just subtext. What the Jedi thought Anakin and Padme were having tea and cookies?
It was a basic rule of the Jedi Order. So significant that Anakin had to hide his secret marriage, and was desperate right throughout TCW that nobody find out. As soon as Obi-Wan even approached the subject, Anakin shut him down. It was a big deal that only contributed to his mental instability. When Yoda met Anakin in his chamber in III, he never mentioned the subject, it's obvious that he's completely clueless.
If the Jedi Order knew, he'd be expelled. I mean they go as far as putting Ahsoka on trial, do you not think they'd against Anakin if they had concrete evidence? In Episode II, Obi-Wan even warns Anakin about as much aboard the gunner ship during the Battle of Genosis.
The Jedi Order were taken for suckers by Palpatine almost the entire Clone War, and only in the closing stages do their suspicions start to grow. But the time to be suspicious was during the period of Episode I, not Episode III. Too little, too late, with grave consequences for the Galaxy.
See the Anakin fall thread for a fuller account of the Jedi Order's culpability.
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Post by Cryogenic on May 23, 2022 2:12:21 GMT
They sensed the dark side around Palpatine, and had Anakin spy on him. Nobody cared about Anakin and Padme, that's not a plot hole. That's just subtext. What the Jedi thought Anakin and Padme were having tea and cookies? It was a basic rule of the Jedi Order. So significant that Anakin had to hide his secret marriage, and was desperate right throughout TCW that nobody find out. As soon as Obi-Wan even approached the subject, Anakin shut him down. It was a big deal that only contributed to his mental instability. When Yoda met Anakin in his chamber in III, he never mentioned the subject, it's obvious that he's completely clueless. You've never heard of an organisation, or high-ranking members within that organisation, making exceptions or looking the other way when it suits them? Anakin was the Chosen One and there was a war on. They weren't in any mood to delve too deeply into indiscretions that could wait (or so they thought). Under such a climate, Yoda would never bring up his concerns directly with Anakin. Anakin goes to him. As the scene is written and played, you can tell that Yoda is choosing his words carefully as he probes around the edges. He never asks Anakin to elaborate on who that "someone" is. He doesn't want to blow Anakin's cover for fear of dealing with the matter and all the repercussions head-on. Later on, Padme practically explodes at Obi-Wan when he dares to suggest that Anakin has turned to the Dark Side, even though it's obvious she already senses the same thing. It's the sort of stuff people do when they'd rather not face the truth.
They had suspicions, but they lacked evidence -- kind of important in a democracy. That's, in part, why they get Anakin to spy on Palpatine. As Obi-Wan says: "They want to know what he's up to." More than that, they may have also been playing a dangerous game of brinkmanship with Palpatine, in which they alert Palpatine to their suspicions indirectly by assigning Anakin, perhaps knowing he'll immediately detect their ruse and tread more carefully while they buy a bit of time to take direct action against him. As Lucas says in the "Making Of" book, Anakin is really just a pawn in the whole scheme.
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Post by Subtext Mining on May 24, 2022 10:29:15 GMT
Just like how Yoda started putting two and two together as he felt the deaths of thousands of Jedi and heard his Clone Troppers approaching him, I think the same applies with his suspicions about Padmé and Anakin's relationship. When he went to the Temple and saw that the Jedi had been killed by a lightsaber, his thoughts went back to his talk with Anakin about his dreams, the pain he felt from him in AotC, his closeness with Palpatine, and it all came together. Obi-Wan was just a little slower, or was in proximity-bias.
And the look Yoda gives Palpatine in his office in AotC I thought came from Yoda's concern over the Chancellor involving himself in Jedi matters, and so insistently.
A low-key observation that contributed to his later revelations.
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Post by tonyg on May 24, 2022 10:47:31 GMT
It was a basic rule of the Jedi Order. So significant that Anakin had to hide his secret marriage, and was desperate right throughout TCW that nobody find out. As soon as Obi-Wan even approached the subject, Anakin shut him down. It was a big deal that only contributed to his mental instability. When Yoda met Anakin in his chamber in III, he never mentioned the subject, it's obvious that he's completely clueless. You've never heard of an organisation, or high-ranking members within that organisation, making exceptions or looking the other way when it suits them? Anakin was the Chosen One and there was a war on. They weren't in any mood to delve too deeply into indiscretions that could wait (or so they thought). Under such a climate, Yoda would never bring up his concerns directly with Anakin. Anakin goes to him. As the scene is written and played, you can tell that Yoda is choosing his words carefully as he probes around the edges. He never asks Anakin to elaborate on who that "someone" is. He doesn't want to blow Anakin's cover for fear of dealing with the matter and all the repercussions head-on. Later on, Padme practically explodes at Obi-Wan when he dares to suggest that Anakin has turned to the Dark Side, even though it's obvious she already senses the same thing. It's the sort of stuff people do when they'd rather not face the truth. They had suspicions, but they lacked evidence -- kind of important in a democracy. That's, in part, why they get Anakin to spy on Palpatine. As Obi-Wan says: "They want to know what he's up to." More than that, they may have also been playing a dangerous game of brinkmanship with Palpatine, in which they alert Palpatine to their suspicions indirectly by assigning Anakin, perhaps knowing he'll immediately detect their ruse and tread more carefully while they buy a bit of time to take direct action against him. As Lucas says in the "Making Of" book, Anakin is really just a pawn in the whole scheme. As Anakin said in ROTS novelization (imprecise quote): Suspecting is one thing and knowing, something completely different. I would elaborate it even further: sensing that something "elusive" is coming/happening is different that suspecting that something may happening and completely different to "knowing" that something is happening. Yoda feels the burden of the Dark Side all the time. But feel or even sense it is one thing and realizing what someone is experiencing is something different. Yoda senses the pain of Anakin in AOTC through Qui Gon who is trying to communicate with Anakin from the other world but as Yoda is opened to such communication (he is meditating) he senses this glimpses of Qui Gon feelings that are dedicated to Anakin. I think this is one of these precious little details that are often missed in AOTC. Similar in this aspect while not quite identical is the situation with the beginning of the Clone Wars. The other Jedi are enthusiastic about the Army as it really helped when all looked beyond hope. While Yoda himself came with this Army he is wise enough to forsee that the battle of Geonosis is not the end of the Separatist crisis. OK, is the end of the crisis but in the same time the beginning of the war. And Yoda feels it that it could be the Dark Side thriumph not because he suspects something in particular but because the era of peace is over and the era of darkness began. Don't get me wrong, I often discussed even in this forum the mistakes made by the leaders of the Jedi Order but the accusation "How could they not see what is coming" is over the top, I think. They couldn't. What they could do, actually is stay on the Jedi path and many things could be different, but certainly, they couldn't see what is coming. Only the viewers know. The small, at first sight insignificant scene in Yoda quarters when they discuss the Clone Army with Mace Windu is crucial for the fate of the world. AOTC is full with such small, subtle scenes: another reason that I like this movie so much. Here the leaders of the Jedi Order made they first, huge mistake that would define their path later. AOTC is a bridge movie but also a "division" movie: these small things that happened led the Order, the characters and the Republic to a place where there is no coming back (but this happened in ROTS). |
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Post by Alexrd on May 24, 2022 11:50:11 GMT
It was a basic rule of the Jedi Order. So significant that Anakin had to hide his secret marriage, and was desperate right throughout TCW that nobody find out. As soon as Obi-Wan even approached the subject, Anakin shut him down. It was a big deal that only contributed to his mental instability. When Yoda met Anakin in his chamber in III, he never mentioned the subject, it's obvious that he's completely clueless. The Jedi are not ignorant about Anakin's feelings for Padmé. It's not like Anakin made it a secret to Obi-Wan. What they don't know, and what Anakin hid, was the lengths that he went in indulging his passion and attachment and in breaking his Jedi vows, as opposed to surpassing them and let go like he should. |
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on May 25, 2022 0:57:14 GMT
Just like how Yoda started putting two and two together as he felt the deaths of thousands of Jedi and heard his Clone Troppers approaching him, I think the same applies with his suspicions about Padmé and Anakin's relationship. When he went to the Temple and saw that the Jedi had been killed by a lightsaber, his thoughts went back to his talk with Anakin about his dreams, the pain he felt from him in AotC, his closeness with Palpatine, and it all came together. Obi-Wan was just a little slower, or was in proximity-bias. And the look Yoda gives Palpatine in his office in AotC I thought came from Yoda's concern over the Chancellor involving himself in Jedi matters, and so insistently. A low-key observation that contributed to his later revelations.
Yeah, that's a good summary of things. It's all pieced together, but tragically too late.
TCW does a great job at showing the transition from AOTC cluelessness to the high suspicion in ROTS. Highly recommended to all those who haven't watched yet...
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Post by Cryogenic on May 26, 2022 23:21:28 GMT
Just like how Yoda started putting two and two together as he felt the deaths of thousands of Jedi and heard his Clone Troppers approaching him, I think the same applies with his suspicions about Padmé and Anakin's relationship. When he went to the Temple and saw that the Jedi had been killed by a lightsaber, his thoughts went back to his talk with Anakin about his dreams, the pain he felt from him in AotC, his closeness with Palpatine, and it all came together. Obi-Wan was just a little slower, or was in proximity-bias. Yes -- and this is how Palpatine's schtick works. He relies on people being naive, foolish, blind, and self-deceived. It's not that Yoda knew for certain that Anakin and Padme were doing the Force rhumba, it's that he had a strong inkling that things weren't right but did nothing to validate his deepest concerns. I think it's more subtle than that. Remember, this is the world of AOTC, the hazy middle, where nothing is quite what it seems and multiple things can be true at once. Watch that moment carefully, be mindful, and you'll see that Yoda's piercing glance arises more from Palpatine's uncle-y unctuousness. Yoda is unconsciously picking up on the slimy wares of the Sith. He casually notices how Palpatine talks over, dominates, and ingratiates himself with Padme. Palpatine even half-chuckles when he says, "I realise all too well that additional security might be disruptive for you." There's a degree of slime beginning to emerge through the cracks in Palpatine's mask. For a moment, Yoda catches a glimpse. "All too well" may even be some kind of Dark Side saying or koan. In the carbon freezing chamber on Cloud City, Vader remarks "All too easy" when he uses the Force to flip the switch and trap Luke in the pit (who he doesn't notice jumping out behind him in time). Yoda may even be thinking, "Is this how he talks with Anakin?" A bigger picture is starting to form in Yoda's mind. It's a moment where some kind of truth is dawning on him, but the war will ultimately distract him, amidst concerns of the Jedi's waning powers, from probing too deeply when he still had the chance. Palpatine's tone and the exact remark he makes are also a red-flag concerning his attitude to increasing militarisation. He basically shows his hand by making out that "additional security" is sometimes necessary, even if hard to endure ("disruptive"). Yoda may, at this point, be starting to realise the Jedi have been had. Palpatine has concealed aims here, and if things go to war, it may be next to impossible to turf him out of office legally. Implicitly sending the Jedi down a dark path, meaning even harder choices lie ahead. No doubt, such thoughts are almost too dark for even Yoda to seriously entertain. This, again, is what Palpatine is banking on. So what if Yoda twitches his eye and sees that something is up with him? Palpatine is close to having everyone where he needs them to be. Too blind, too entangled in their own concerns to be a united force against him. |
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