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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Nov 4, 2022 20:15:25 GMT
Anakin isn't dumb when he agrees to kill the Jedi, he is being a coward. Lucas himself says that Anakin sealed his fate by assisting in the murder of Mace. At that point, he would be arrested and tried for his crimes, which means he would be separated from Padmé. Plus this guy Palpatine is the only one who has told him he could save his wife from death, so what else is he going to do? Also, Anakin is totally disillusioned with the Jedi by this point, as he just witnessed Mace about to kill an unarmed man. He clearly doesn't enjoy killing the younglings, it's more of a mercy killing in his mind, a necessary evil.
Anakin was helpless as a child slave and dreamed of becoming a Jedi, who he thought were invincible. Then as a Jedi he learned that they were not invincible and that the Jedi path wouldn't lead to ultimate power because they were "holding him back." Palpatine's lure with the tale of Plagueis is two fold. It promises Anakin the fulfillment of his childhood dream of being an invincible warrior, "able to fix anything", and it introduces the idea to him that Sith can have loved ones ("He could even save the ones he cared about from dying"). Anakin himself was miraculously conceived through the Force, and thus had the highest midi-chlorian count, so it's not hard to believe why he would think creating life with the Force was possible.
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Post by Samnz on Nov 6, 2022 11:41:08 GMT
Anakin's fall is such a complex process mainly because it is an actual fall from grace and not simply a turn. There was always, I think, a balancing act for George between making Anakin somehow relatable and enable the viewer to feel sympathy for Anakin's conflicts and the choices he made and at the same time making clear that Anakin was... wrong, simple as that, just wrong, and consequently turning him into a "monster". Luke might have come close to turning to the dark side in ROTJ, but we had no idea what falling to the dark side actually meant and how that would look and transpire. That whole process of inner corruption, becoming consumed by darkness and one's own dark deeds. That's what caught many people off guard in regard to Anakin's actions after he turned. Up until the turn, most people capable of compassion could at least understand what Anakin felt, even if they didn't agree. Afterwards, they couldn't. What some didn't get? They weren't supposed to. Anakin fell, he became a bad human being and followed that dark path that would forever dominate his destiny. We are not supposed to sympathize with him anymore, we're expected to see that what he does is wrong. However, that doesn't stop us from seeing the tragedy that lies within. His rationalizations are those of a bad person, of someone twisting reality to make himself feel better, to live with the burden of monstrosity and the anger of allowing the Jedi and Palpatine to use him as a pawn in their game of power. That's sad, especially pictured against that bright and optimistic kid that he once was. He didn't have to fall. He could have been saved, he could have saved himself. But he didn't. Not yet.
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Post by Subtext Mining on Nov 26, 2022 17:01:16 GMT
Precisely, well said, guys. -- There's also the question of the dark side being addictive. Is it like a drug or possession that controls it's host as if under a hypnotic spell? There are a wide range of opinions as to how much people think a dark side drunkenness of sorts took over Anakin. Some say it was the cause behind all his actions after pledging himself, and some say it had little to nothing to do with it, he kept making bad decisions on his own volition because of the situation he was in. I think an addictive aspect may be a part of it, but definitely not all. I think the main point Lucas was trying to get across in the films was the concept of greed; the cycle of getting what you want, eventually becoming unsatisfied, and wanting more and more. Then becoming paranoid that others are trying to take what you have. Seems to me, the dark side does snowball you into an insatiable craving, or more specifically, enables your inner selfish voice to become louder than your conscience, by shifting your moral compass and rationalizing wrong as right. Two pertinent lines from Anakin: "I feel lost, I want more but I know I shouldn't," "Something's happening, I'm not the Jedi I should be." I'd say the addiction aspect compels one into getting a sick thrill out of using one's dark emotions. Such as we see when Anakin kills the Separatist leaders. And in using these dark emotions, one becomes further entangled in the quicksand of the dark side. Like I said, I think there's an element of that, but it's also important that Anakin be in control of his choices. Which I think is exemplified in the scene where he chokes Padmé. Yes, he's beside himself with anger and drunk on power, so to speak, but he can still control it, as we see when he finally lets go, thanks largely to Obi-Wan's insistence, mind you, but also Anakin's own faculties.  |
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Post by smittysgelato on Nov 26, 2022 23:12:31 GMT
The thing is, Anakin attacks Mace Windu in the first place because he is already afraid that he is going to lose the person he cares about most. So, it isn't like he is full on addicted to the dark side at that point. While he does love Padme, her presence in his life is a pleasurable one, and therefore addictive. And boy oh boy if you share a bed with that lady you're damned right you're gonna be tempted to make bad choices just to keep her in your life (bed)!
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Post by Subtext Mining on Dec 7, 2022 16:04:17 GMT
Right, Anakin does have a propensity towards developing obsessions with things very quickly. Particularly things that give him pleasure. He thought about Padmé every day for ten years after meeting her once. Not to mention his confession to his own Master that just being around her was intoxicating.
And yes, it's that addiction of sorts, more specifically his attachment, that compelled him to chose Palpatine over Mace that fateful night and plunged the galaxy into the dark times.
It seems by the time he iced the Separatist leaders on Mustafar, accompanied by a sort of sick thrill in it, he was experiencing a surge in power, leading him to believe he could defeat Sidious, which kind of took over his sense of reason. And now his already strong sense of need for control was running rampant, so by the time Obi-Wan appeared in the doorway of Padmé's ship, he was drowning in lust for power and fear of having it taken away.
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Post by Cryogenic on Dec 10, 2022 4:26:21 GMT
The thing is, Anakin attacks Mace Windu in the first place because he is already afraid that he is going to lose the person he cares about most. So, it isn't like he is full on addicted to the dark side at that point. While he does love Padme, her presence in his life is a pleasurable one, and therefore addictive. And boy oh boy if you share a bed with that lady you're damned right you're gonna be tempted to make bad choices just to keep her in your life (bed)! I guess taking Yoda's advice to Luke in TESB -- and avoiding Anakin's peril -- can lead to a better sex life: "Never his mind on where he was, what he was doin'." Or who.  Beautiful gal at his side, but Anakin is dreaming of what could happen; and through his fears, his fixations, he is destroyed. In AOTC, poisonous worms try to kill Padme. In ROTS, Anakin becomes the poisonous worm. Right, Anakin does have a propensity towards developing obsessions with things very quickly. Particularly things that give him pleasure. He thought about Padmé every day for ten years after meeting her once. Not to mention his confession to his own Master that just being around her was intoxicating. And yes, it's that addiction of sorts, more specifically his attachment, that compelled him to chose Palpatine over Mace that fateful night and plunged the galaxy into the dark times. It seems by the time he iced the Separatist leaders on Mustafar, accompanied by a sort of sick thrill in it, he was experiencing a surge in power, leading him to believe he could defeat Sidious, which kind of took over his sense of reason. And now his already strong sense of need for control was running rampant, so by the time Obi-Wan appeared in the doorway of Padmé's ship, he was drowning in lust for power and fear of having it taken away. Yeah, when you think about it, ROTS is a capsule lesson in power and its distorting effects, and a reminder that few people are fit to wield it all that long without it corrupting them. |
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Post by smittysgelato on Dec 10, 2022 5:46:15 GMT
 Exactly.
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Post by Subtext Mining on Mar 6, 2023 15:16:01 GMT
A couple of observations.
After the Tusken incident, Anakin decides to straighten up and fly right by following every order he's given, even if it means not saving Obi-Wan. It's Padmé who bends the rules to accomplish what they're aiming for. It's not that the Jedi didn't need or want Anakin's help, they just didn't want to endanger Senator Amidala. There was a bit of a dilemma over which was the greater good, have Skywalker help save Obi-Wan or keep Amidala safe? Padmé chose helping a friend despite the risk to her own safety.
The Jedi also bent some rules, but each time it was for the greater good. They inducted Anakin into the order despite his age because he was the Chosen One who would restore balance and save the galaxy. And Mace decided to kill "unarmed" Palapatine's because he was too great a threat alive.
Anakin saw them bending rules and figured it then should be ok for him to do so as well. However, when he did it, it was for his greater good, not the galaxy's.
Another goes back to the classic opening scene of TPM. I recently noticed how pertinent the dialogue between Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan is, not only to Jedi philosophy in general, and to the duo aspects of the Force, but to Anakin's internal struggle and eventual fall as well.
Obi-Wan: I have a bad feeling about this.
Qui-Gon: I don't sense anything.
Obi-Wan: It's not about the mission Master, it's something... elsewhere... elusive.
Qui-Gon: Don't center on your anxieties, Obi-Wan. Keep your concentration here and now where it belongs.
Obi-Wan: But Mater Yoda said I should be mindful of the future.
Qui-Gon-Gon: But not at the expense of the moment. Be mindful of the Living Force, young Padawan.
Obi-Wan: Yes, Master.
Anakin was centered on his anxieties and was hyper-fixated on the future, particularly in RotS. If he had calmed his fears and been more settled in the present, he may have seen that Padmé was in no danger.
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Post by Subtext Mining on Mar 10, 2023 22:19:19 GMT
Another example of rule bending in a more innocent way and for the greater good is when Ani orders R2 not to return to the hangar on Naboo after thier fighter's autopilot had taken them into space. He uses the cheeky justification that Qui-Gon told him to stay in the cockpit so he could help out the other pilots, and ended up destroying the droid control ship.
And later in Episode II, Padmé decides to use herself as bait in hopes of catching the assassin targeting her, even though the Jedi Council themselves haven't issued anything of the sort. Anakin agrees with her and justifies it to Obi-Wan that R2 is watching her and that he can sense everything going on in her room. Here he's also protecting Padmé, well, her plan. He's persuading Obi-Wan to let them continue with their scheme.
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Post by darkspine10 on Mar 11, 2023 23:00:00 GMT
Another example of rule bending in a more innocent way and for the greater good is when Ani orders R2 not to return to the hangar on Naboo after thier fighter's autopilot had taken them into space. He uses the cheeky justification that Qui-Gon told him to stay in the cockpit so he could help out the other pilots, and ended up destroying the droid control ship. You've made me see another parallel, which is when Padme insists on going to Geonosis, meaning Anakin has to stay with her. It's just like his insistence to R2 to follow Qui-Gon's instructions to the letter. No wonder Anakin becomes so attached, they have similar ways of thinking. "He gave you strict orders to protect me and I'm going to help Obi-Wan. If you plan to protect me, you'll just have to come along." |
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Post by Subtext Mining on Sept 26, 2023 9:42:29 GMT
Here's a quote I found to be pertinent, by French philosopher Simone Weil.
"Evil, when we are in its power, is not felt as evil, but as a necessity, even a duty."
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Post by tonyg on Sept 26, 2023 15:11:25 GMT
Here's a quote I found to be pertinent, by French philosopher Simone Weil. "Evil, when we are in its power, is not felt as evil, but as a necessity, even a duty." I would say, it is always for the "greater good". People realize that the things they do are not good, but they always think in such occasions that the outcome would be good so they need to sacrifice two or more principles. Is what what happened to Anakin. |
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