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Post by Alexrd on May 19, 2021 13:10:56 GMT
In the Star Wars galaxy, droids are like appliances. You are not meant to think much of or care for them the way you do for a living being. R2 and 3PO are the exceptions, because they were made to be characters. But the rest are what they are, just droids.
That exchange Obi-Wan has with Dex is precisely to reinforce that point. Droids can't think. They can't be reasoned with, they are programmed for a purpose and inherently limited to that. That's why Dex points out their limitations and the difference between knowledge (which a droid can have) and wisdom (which a droid can't have).
Obi-Wan in TPM does dismiss Jar Jar and Anakin, in contrast with Qui-Gon. But this is part of his character's growth, and by the end of the movie he learns the lesson Qui-Gon was imparting.
And I don't recall Obi-Wan leaving clones to their deaths. He befriended them, worked with them and saved them countless times.
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on May 19, 2021 13:32:30 GMT
In the Star Wars galaxy, droids are like appliances. You are not meant to think much of or care for them the way you do for a living being. R2 and 3PO are the exceptions, because they were made to be characters. But the rest are what they are, just droids. That exchange Obi-Wan has with Dex is precisely to reinforce that point. Droids can't think. They can't be reasoned with, they are programmed for a purpose and inherently limited to that. That's why Dex points out their limitations and the difference between knowledge (which a droid can have) and wisdom (which a droid can't have). Obi-Wan in TPM does dismiss Jar Jar and Anakin, in contrast with Qui-Gon. But this is part of his character's growth, and by the end of the movie he learns the lesson Qui-Gon was imparting. And I don't recall Obi-Wan leaving clones to their deaths. He befriended them, worked with them and saved them countless times. Anakin and Luke are attached to their droids, which I think is interesting. Of course it's because R2 and 3PO are part of the main cast, but it's something you can think about. These machines prove to be more than just tools. They are valuable companions that save the heroes multiple times. Consider this quote from Lucas: "It's about the prejudice against droids, which is again symbolic of people intolerant of things that aren't similar to themselves. In this case, life-forms. Obviously there was a wide variety of life-forms in this movie - and this scene in particular - who are very, very different and very odd. But they're prejudiced basically against non-life-forms. So at least one of the ideas here is we've gotten to the point of accepting life-forms, no matter how different they look. They're all part of the same life process." I know your stance on the issue, but I read some problems with the conduct of the PT Jedi. Obi-Wan leaving the clones to be blasted by Tri-Fighters is one of them, and I think it's purposely contrasted with Anakin's insistence to help them. I think Anakin takes after Qui-Gon's philosophy in this instance, more than Obi-Wan. |
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on May 19, 2021 17:37:11 GMT
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Post by smittysgelato on May 19, 2021 19:28:12 GMT
@seeker of the Whills
There is a moment in Casablanca where Rick is sitting in the dark feeling sorry for himself, but then Ilsa enters the room and light comes flooding in behind her.
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Post by Cryogenic on May 19, 2021 23:23:11 GMT
Anakin and Luke are attached to their droids, which I think is interesting. Of course it's because R2 and 3PO are part of the main cast, but it's something you can think about. These machines prove to be more than just tools. They are valuable companions that save the heroes multiple times. Indeed. There is some nifty cognitive rhyming which resonates as didactic critique and metatextual commentary in ANH: The coloured droids are rhythmically captured by the massive junk collector and set free by the humans on Tatooine (Luke picks them out of a sale lineup), while the same droids stand outside the fray of the garbage masher in the monstrosity of the Death Star and return the earlier favour by setting the humans (including Luke and a scared and presumably grateful Wookiee) free. Heck, Artoo even plays chess with Chewbacca on the Falcon, with Threepio umpiring and telling Chewie that Artoo made a "fair move" and that "screaming about it won't help" (Threepio defending his robot companion whom he just as often berates: nice). But then Han warns him it isn't wise to upset a Wookiee. And the picture that Han paints -- "That's because a droid doesn't rip people's arms out of their sockets when they lose. Wookiees are known to do that" -- gets Threepio to dispense some new advice: "I suggest a new strategy, Artoo. Let the Wookiee win." Now, perhaps they are just intelligent toasters, but how smart and self-aware are humans, really? Threepio immediately sees the logic in listening to Han, and the fate that Han warns about is one that Threepio himself has already suffered (and presumably wants to avert a second time) on Tatooine (in the scuffle with the Tusken Raiders, Threepio loses an arm -- another mirror with Anakin as noted earlier). At the very least, droids show some degree of self-preservation. Even those Battle Droids respond amusingly to the Acklay that towers over them in the arena on Geonosis, offering a rather urgently-intoned "roger, roger!" (Obi-Wan then turns around and slays the poor beast). And droids appear to have a lot more personality than your average stormtrooper -- and droids, of course, are replaced by stormtroopers as the basic keystone cops of the galaxy. Again, we seem to have Lucas counterpointing the dehumanising effects of fascism, or simply the "business as usual" approach where people become bland enforcers or cogs in a blind machine. When the droids arrive on the Death Star, they are conspicuous in their colouration. They bring some joy and zest to the place. They are machines, but they seem lively, fussy, creative (e.g., Threepio tricks the stormtroopers that enter the control room), and improbable. In other words, they seem human (or their human characteristics are more apparent) when set against the relatively cold and lifeless decor and ambiance of the psych-ward innards of the Death Star. Thus, many of the droids in Star Wars always have a spark of life about them; even if their sapience is perhaps limited. As Seeker said: they are valuable companions that rescue the heroes from sticky situations multiple times. The humans could not succeed without them; and they have their own way of navigating the strange world, full of bizarre sights and hidden dangers, and yet they tend to come out relatively unscathed; but not necessarily unchanged. Threepio seems to have partially come to grips with human ways by the end of the OT, and while it's not technically "Lucas", he even trolls Poe in the ST ("Irony, sir!" / "So do I. We should leave"). All in all, they seem pretty human to me. Then again, that's probably an insult -- it is to Jabba when Han calls him that in ANH, at least. "To be angry is to be human." Well, maybe. But emotions aren't exclusively the preserve of humans. Perhaps we need better terms; perhaps we murder others and imprison ourselves with language. Humans do not have a monopoly on life or consciousness -- surely one of the things the Star Wars Saga (even with its focus on human characters and relationships) repeatedly hints at. |
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Post by Alexrd on May 20, 2021 9:14:00 GMT
I know your stance on the issue, but I read some problems with the conduct of the PT Jedi. Obi-Wan leaving the clones to be blasted by Tri-Fighters is one of them, and I think it's purposely contrasted with Anakin's insistence to help them. I think Anakin takes after Qui-Gon's philosophy in this instance, more than Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan leaves the clones because, as he explains, they are doing their job so that the Jedi can do theirs. The Jedi and the clones were risking their lives and working together for a common goal. By rescuing the clones in that instance, they would be compromising their mission and everything the clones sacrificed for. That's a perfect example of Anakin's problem, which was the point Lucas was making. And to bring this a bit more on-topic, it mirrors Yoda's advice to Luke in TESB. |
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on May 20, 2021 12:42:27 GMT
Both Anakin and Cody have a scar around the eye. Both got it during battles in the Clone Wars.   |
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Post by smittysgelato on May 20, 2021 17:17:23 GMT
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Post by Cryogenic on May 20, 2021 17:37:34 GMT
Bloody hell, Smitty! You really went to town there! Well done.  Just thought of another resonance here: ANAKIN: Mom, we sold the pod! Look at all the money we have! SHMI: Oh, my goodness. But that's so wonderful, Ani. QUI-GON: And he has been freed. ANAKIN: What?! QUI-GON: You're no longer a slave. ANAKIN: Did you hear that? SHMI: Now you can make your dreams come true, Ani. (Freed by a blue... Toydarian). |
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on May 20, 2021 18:24:25 GMT
Very nice. Made me recall this connection. True faces revealed     Zam's is another nightmarish transformation. |
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Post by smittysgelato on May 20, 2021 19:09:30 GMT
Yes, I remember mulling over Zam back when I wrote Prequel Posts #2, I had a whole section on her, but deleted it due to length. Like Sidious, she is a shapeshifter, and if you trace her employment, she's an agent of Sidious. She hides in the crowd. Sidious has his tentacles everywhere. Anyone could be wearing a friendly, mask, but underneath, be an agent puppet of Sidious! Scary! It is fun to watch the movies through this lens. Every time a character becomes a puppet of another character, take a drink. You'll be hammered by the time you're through. A favourite example:   3P0 as the puppet of a giant rubber puppet. Hilarious! |
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Post by Cryogenic on May 20, 2021 20:03:03 GMT
Housekeeping/technical assistance
Okay, Smitty, I should have gotten to your technical issue earlier... P.S. Still struggling to figure out how to get screenshots to appear in the forum as bigger than thumbnails. You appear to be inserting images directly as attachments. But prequel Jedi shun attachments.  That's why your images appear small, and when quoted, they turn into "Download Attachment" lines of text. A better way to add images to a post/reply is to link to them from somewhere else. To do that, you first need to have a working link (or URL). Then you click the third button along on the third set of buttons at the top of the reply window (or counting back from the right side where the second-to-last is a smiley face: it's six buttons in from the last one; more exactly: it's the "picture frame" button to the immediate left of the "clapperboard" button). Then, when the dialog box comes up, there are two boxes. You only need to fill the URL box in. I always ignore the "Alt Text" box underneath. But there are snares to linking outside the forum. Put simply, many images disappear rather rapidly from the Internet; even from sites you think might last. There is no remedy for this per se, other than trying to choose a good image source (i.e., a good website to link to). Seeker and I have been using this one: starwarsscreencaps.com/ Note that there are 2K and 4K options available on there (under the third category: "+ THE MOVIES"). Each screencap has its own URL. You simply go through the library and find the ones you want. Not all frames are available (e.g., you might come up short if you're looking for a an exact shot like a laser blast or something), but there are a decent number of caps. An alternative way to link to screencaps is to make your own or even re-upload the ones on Star Wars Screencaps to an image-hosting website. I normally do it that way. The site I use is Imgur. It's very easy to use and you don't need an account. They also claim to be aiming to last indefinitely; but yeah, this is the Internet, so take that with a big cup of Jawa Juice. I used to use Photobucket, but that site is a total letdown these days. Anyway, hope this is of assistance to you.
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Post by smittysgelato on May 20, 2021 20:34:17 GMT
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Post by Cryogenic on May 20, 2021 20:54:54 GMT
Housekeeping/technical assistanceEven the puppeteers have puppeteers:    Edit: Still not working...Will keep tinkering away at it to see if I can fix it. Nice images! I see the problem. What you've done is link to the page those images are on. What you need to do is link directly to the image. Not sure if you're on a desktop or laptop computer (as opposed to a smartphone or tablet), but it's easy if you have a mouse. Right-click each image on the page where the images are being hosted, and there should be an option like "copy image address". That will copy the URL into the clipboard. From there, back in the reply window on Naberrie Fields, you can paste the URL into the Image URL box (the one accessed via the "Insert Image" button; or the "picture frame" button as mentioned). It's easy to get caught out here. I think I did it a few times when I was new to this place. The message board software only recognises direct links with proper image file extensions (e.g., JPG, JPEG, GIF, PNG, BMP, etc.). Unfortunately, it isn't smart enough to convert actual page URLs (like the ones you used: e.g., postimg.cc/1nKN4XbX ); you must supply the exact link to each file you want to display (e.g., i.postimg.cc/vBJ7q6zr/battledroid.jpg ). Here they all are: postimg.cc/1nKN4XbXpostimg.cc/F1mym5w1postimg.cc/grPDJ6LzEach one in turn links to a page that hosts an image (file) -- these are the URLs you want: i.postimg.cc/vBJ7q6zr/battledroid.jpgi.postimg.cc/Kc3JPmN7/4k-sw-phantom-starwarsscreencaps-com-15598.jpgi.postimg.cc/T2KHtVRD/pupeteerofthepupeeteers.jpgI'm leaving the final step to you. You need to plug each of those URLs into the "Insert Image" box. Just to give you something to do.  NOTE: Due to the quirks of this software, you'll need to click those image links before attempting to use them. Do not attempt to copy them straight from the screen by right-clicking; the message board software inserts a lot of unwanted code and makes super-long URLs with a lot of junk in them. You want the originals without all that extra code. Clicking those links will display the images correctly; and then you can copy the URLs in the way they appear.
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Post by Cryogenic on May 20, 2021 21:19:11 GMT
No problem.  Absolutely love the caps, too. What a theme! And maaaan, those colours! The ghostly blue of Palpatine is everywhere. The Phantom Menace. |
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on May 21, 2021 10:29:43 GMT
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Post by Cryogenic on May 21, 2021 10:40:23 GMT
A clone fugue! Or to quote your opening post: |
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on May 21, 2021 19:15:19 GMT
Tampering with midi-chlorians.   |
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Post by darkspine10 on May 21, 2021 22:19:35 GMT
  "R2, stay with the ship." In the first instance, Anakin tells R2 to stay behind as part of a genuine moment of caring for his little droid, keeping him out of trouble (at least he hopes) and allowing him to remotely aid with the mission. In the latter, it's a clipped, terse instruction for R2 to stop him getting in the way of his business. This is also the same moment in which Anakin pulls up his hood, fully subsuming himself back into his new role as a Sith enforcer. As clear a transition from Anakin to Vader as could be illustrated. |
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Post by Somny on May 21, 2021 23:15:06 GMT
And droids appear to have a lot more personality than your average stormtrooper -- and droids, of course, are replaced by stormtroopers as the basic keystone cops of the galaxy. Again, we seem to have Lucas counterpointing the dehumanising effects of fascism, or simply the "business as usual" approach where people become bland enforcers or cogs in a blind machine. When the droids arrive on the Death Star, they are conspicuous in their colouration. They bring some joy and zest to the place. They are machines, but they seem lively, fussy, creative (e.g., Threepio tricks the stormtroopers that enter the control room), and improbable. In other words, they seem human (or their human characteristics are more apparent) when set against the relatively cold and lifeless decor and ambiance of the psych-ward innards of the Death Star. ... Thus, many of the droids in Star Wars always have a spark of life about them; even if their sapience is perhaps limited. As Seeker said: they are valuable companions that rescue the heroes from sticky situations multiple times. The humans could not succeed without them; and they have their own way of navigating the strange world, full of bizarre sights and hidden dangers, and yet they tend to come out relatively unscathed; but not necessarily unchanged. Threepio seems to have partially come to grips with human ways by the end of the OT, and while it's not technically "Lucas", he even trolls Poe in the ST ("Irony, sir!" / "So do I. We should leave"). All in all, they seem pretty human to me. Then again, that's probably an insult -- it is to Jabba when Han calls him that in ANH, at least. "To be angry is to be human." Well, maybe. But emotions aren't exclusively the preserve of humans. Perhaps we need better terms; perhaps we murder others and imprison ourselves with language. Humans do not have a monopoly on life or consciousness -- surely one of the things the Star Wars Saga (even with its focus on human characters and relationships) repeatedly hints at. "I heartily agree with you, sir." -Threepio, ANH That subtle dialogue touch pretty much sums up and clues one into the general anthropomorphic approach to robots in the GFFA. |
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