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Post by Alexrd on Oct 26, 2022 22:53:56 GMT
Now, on the face of it, this is simply good establishing dialogue for the two characters. The words quickly zone in on what makes Qui-Gon stand out from the other Jedi and how Obi-Wan is more 'by the books', in a way that also sprinkles in some decent life advice about focusing on the present. I actually disagree on this. The dialogue does give some insight into the characters, but not in that sense. Qui-Gon is not being put aside in contrast with the other Jedi. Obi-Wan is. It's Obi-Wan that's making the wrong take away of Yoda's teaching, because he's still learning. He's focusing on the future at the expense of the present, and Qui-Gon is clarifying what Yoda meant, or what the Jedi actually teach: to be mindful of the future, yes, but not at the expense of the present. |
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 27, 2022 5:25:17 GMT
Ingram's use of sarcasm is as impeccable as ever. It is -- well, assuming the images actually load. I never said I bought into the gaslighting. Neither did I. Well, if I'm completely honest, I probably did, intermittently, in earlier years. It is hard, when you're young, not to be swayed by popular sentiment and peer pressure. And there was a lot of animosity toward the prequels, as we all know. But the one good thing, even with all the detraction, is that the prequels have always been conversation-generators. The Sequel Trilogy kinda stole some of their thunder on that level, but the prequels have still outlasted them. Luckily, a lot of third-rate fantasy blockbusters were released contemporaneously with the prequels, and I thought they all sucked. That made me like the prequels even more. Yes, I never really thought LOTR, Spider-Man, Harry Potter, The Matrix, et al. could hold a candle to the prequels; and, really, I still don't. I think that sorta emboldened me to more and more embrace the prequels as a unique artistic expression. And it made arguing back with everyone else more interesting, since it would inevitably lead to even more histrionic detraction: "Prequel gusher thinks the prequels are better works of cinema than LOTR. HAHAHAHAHA." Bite me, Internet. Bite me. I had better acknowledge these remarks, too: That's the kind of thinking I like to see! And great minds think alike; Cryo, I, and some others have been kicking this around awhile The reaction to AOTC from certain corners almost sunk my battleship but I managed to preserve a shred of enlightened discreteness with the help of books, media interviews, online content and DVD special features brimming with insight about the inner-workings of SW and the PT, largely from Lucas himself... and reading Cryo helped too. Aww, thanks! You know, really, Stampid and I indirectly gave birth to Star Wars Ring Theory (I might go into it some other time), along with Samnz . (If you want the cheat-sheet version of that, it involves this thread on TFN, along with this one, along with careful reading of this interview with Ring Theory author Mike Klimo). Some of us prequel fans have genuinely had some impact, I think. Of course, it's hard to prove anything, but I take solace in the notion that some fans might have read our stuff and been sparked into new directions. That's what discussion is all about. |
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 27, 2022 5:57:51 GMT
I had a small but intriguing thought today about some of the earliest dialogue in the Prequel trilogy. It concerns this exchange between Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon: QUI-GON : "Don't center on your anxiety, Obi-Wan. Keep your concentration here and now where it belongs." OBI-WAN : "Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future." QUI-GON : "But not at the expense of the moment. Be mindful of the living Force, my young Padawan." Now, on the face of it, this is simply good establishing dialogue for the two characters. The words quickly zone in on what makes Qui-Gon stand out from the other Jedi and how Obi-Wan is more 'by the books', in a way that also sprinkles in some decent life advice about focusing on the present. But on reflection, a deeper meaning jumped out at me. In the Star Wars universe, what is 'the future' essentially referring to? From the perspective of The Phantom Menace, 'the future' is in fact the Original Trilogy. In other words, George Lucas is reaching across the screen in this moment to say to the audience 'don't bring too many preconceptions about Star Wars into this movie. Take each scene as they come and appreciate the details and value of them on their on terms, without overly relying on what came before.' The 'future' Obi-Wan speaks of becomes the past, layering on a meta level to the dialogue that quietly signals that Lucas wanted to try something novel with the Prequels and invites the audience to follow along and not be overly comparative to other movies that had differing aesthetic goals. It's especially subtle because on the surface the dialogue already serves a great efficient function in the script, to get us up to speed on the characters before the action starts, but it becomes elevated by a simple in-depth reading. And people say the man writes bad dialogue!  Great thoughts all-round. Although, as Subtext Mining pointed out, these layers were pin-pointed by prequel fans years ago. I have highlighted a critical remark you made because it's really key here: i.e., the more reflection you do, the more these films reward you. Lucas deliberately embedded a rich set of meanings within the dialogue, the visuals, and how one scene or moment relates to a thousand others. As he humble-bragged to Vanity Fair in 2005: Hell, if you wanted to link Qui-Gon's opening guidance to Obi-Wan (and the viewer) to GL's remarks above, you might say that the opening exchange of TPM starts an egg-timer on the entire prequel journey. Tick tock, tick tock. There is also some irony in the fact that Qui-Gon emphasises the Living Force, given that he dies at the end of the movie. Of course, the way the writing of the prequels is structured, especially this initial exchange, should be familiar to any reasonably book-literate person. Qui-Gon's opening advice has the form and content of an epigraph ("a phrase, quotation, or poem that is set at the beginning of a document, monograph or section thereof"; or, according to another link, "a motto or quotation, at the beginning of a literary composition, setting forth a theme"). Equally, because Obi-Wan starts the scene by uttering the memetic Star Wars "phrase" ("I have a bad feeling about this"), Qui-Gon's contrapuntal response is placed within a broader conceptual framework: i.e., "this" is ritualised space opera -- a mode of storytelling where starchy, epigrammatic utterances are the norm, and rhythm/repetition is a major storytelling component. You'll notice, for example, how "bad feelings" that Anakin has are later encouraged by Palpatine in Episode III, while Yoda scolds Luke for his pessimistic thinking in Episode V. Now, on the face of it, this is simply good establishing dialogue for the two characters. The words quickly zone in on what makes Qui-Gon stand out from the other Jedi and how Obi-Wan is more 'by the books', in a way that also sprinkles in some decent life advice about focusing on the present. I actually disagree on this. The dialogue does give some insight into the characters, but not in that sense. Qui-Gon is not being put aside in contrast with the other Jedi. Obi-Wan is. It's Obi-Wan that's making the wrong take away of Yoda's teaching, because he's still learning. He's focusing on the future at the expense of the present, and Qui-Gon is clarifying what Yoda meant, or what the Jedi actually teach: to be mindful of the future, yes, but not at the expense of the present. It's true, I think, that Qui-Gon is half-reminding Obi-Wan (and the audience) of Yoda's own teachings. But Qui-Gon seems to buttress that reminder by sneaking in his personal theology when he specifically invokes the Living Force. We never hear Yoda making mention of it; but Qui-Gon does, several times. Qui-Gon appears to be at a slight extreme, even for Yoda. After all, Qui-Gon is surprised that the Jedi Council are so unimpressed with Anakin, urging them that they must be able to see that he is the Chosen One, and it's Yoda who says back, as if speaking for the entire Council: "Clouded this boy's future is." Yet, in TESB, Yoda rebukes Luke for his negativity, even telling him: "Always in motion is the future." It sounds like this is a lesson that Yoda has had to unlearn or re-learn between the PT and the OT. He does, of course, make contact with Qui-Gon and begin training under him at the close of the PT. I think we are meant to respect the fact that Qui-Gon is out there in the world, uniquely applying his faith in the Force to see him through difficulties. Visually speaking, Lucas discloses that the Jedi have lost their way when Qui-Gon arrives on Coruscant and they're all sitting down, trapped in a circle. TPM very much has circles (including its plot progression: from Naboo, to Tatooine, to Coruscant, then back to Naboo again) as a major plot motif. |
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Post by Alexrd on Oct 27, 2022 8:34:34 GMT
It's true, I think, that Qui-Gon is half-reminding Obi-Wan (and the audience) of Yoda's own teachings. But Qui-Gon seems to buttress that reminder by sneaking in his personal theology when he specifically invokes the Living Force. We never hear Yoda making mention of it; but Qui-Gon does, several times. Well, Lucas himself was introducing to the audience the distinction between living Force and cosmic Force. It's not Qui-Gon's philosophy, it's Jedi's philosophy. It's something all Jedi know and teach about. Obi-Wan doesn't ask what the living Force is. He knows too. Qui-Gon appears to be at a slight extreme, even for Yoda. After all, Qui-Gon is surprised that the Jedi Council are so unimpressed with Anakin, urging them that they must be able to see that he is the Chosen One, and it's Yoda who says back, as if speaking for the entire Council: "Clouded this boy's future is." Yet, in TESB, Yoda rebukes Luke for his negativity, even telling him: "Always in motion is the future." It sounds like this is a lesson that Yoda has had to unlearn or re-learn between the PT and the OT. There's no incongruity there. In TPM, Yoda's is explaining why Anakin shouldn't be trained. He's being cautious/wise, not reacting to a vision of doom. Anakin's future is clouded, there's no clarity. Which is a hint of the dark side, which clouds. And the dark side is a result of his age and attachment he fostered, which is a great danger for Anakin himself and others that might suffer because of that. Which is the same argument he makes in TESB against Luke. In the end, he acquiesces and Luke fortunately turns out alright in the end, but it was a very big risk, as Luke's (and Anakin's) journey showed. What he's telling Luke is that what he saw was not a certainty for him to react like it is, which is not comparable to what's happening in TPM. It's comparable to ROTS, where Anakin saw Padmé's death. Yet the teaching is still that you can't disregard the present at the expense of the future (and vice versa). If anything, it's Qui-Gon who is not being consistent, since he's disregarding the present (which is the reality of Anakin's age and fear) at the expense of the future where he might bring balance to the Force. Fortunately for him, and for the Council which did end up allowing Anakin's training, he was correct. He does, of course, make contact with Qui-Gon and begin training under him at the close of the PT. I think we are meant to respect the fact that Qui-Gon is out there in the world, uniquely applying his faith in the Force to see him through difficulties. Visually speaking, Lucas discloses that the Jedi have lost their way when Qui-Gon arrives on Coruscant and they're all sitting down, trapped in a circle. TPM very much has circles (including its plot progression: from Naboo, to Tatooine, to Coruscant, then back to Naboo again) as a major plot motif. I don't agree that the Jedi lost their way or that Lucas is conveying that in his movies. On the contrary actually, and his many comments on the topic show that. |
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 27, 2022 18:52:32 GMT
It's true, I think, that Qui-Gon is half-reminding Obi-Wan (and the audience) of Yoda's own teachings. But Qui-Gon seems to buttress that reminder by sneaking in his personal theology when he specifically invokes the Living Force. We never hear Yoda making mention of it; but Qui-Gon does, several times. Well, Lucas himself was introducing to the audience the distinction between living Force and cosmic Force. It's not Qui-Gon's philosophy, it's Jedi's philosophy. It's something all Jedi know and teach about. Obi-Wan doesn't ask what the living Force is. He knows too. But it's Qui-Gon who places emphasis on it. Yoda and the other members of the Jedi Council do not. On the contrary, they have a tepid response to Anakin, and they order Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan back to Naboo to protect Amidala; but, more importantly, to discover the identity of the "dark warrior". They are focused more on the "cosmic" part of the equation (i.e., keeping everything in balance). Ironically, in order to obtain that balance, they really need Anakin, but the testing scene makes clear that Yoda is spooked by the high level of fear he senses in Anakin, so they defer the matter. Already, they lean away from Anakin, while Qui-Gon leans toward him -- a pivotal difference. It might be a risk to accept Anakin and Luke, but a rich existence, as Joseph Campbell eloquently expounded on, requires accepting and taking on risk. Star Wars itself would not exist had George Lucas not taken some risks (and he rightly lamented Hollywood's aversion to risk-taking in his interview with Charlie Rose in 2015). The Jedi have walled themselves away from risk, hoping it would never pass through their gate. Of course, that's a major error on their part, and they pay dearly for it. All institutions are vulnerable to collapse and the sun sets on all empires in the end. Life is all about being flexible enough to adapt to changing circumstances. Aversion to change breeds stagnation and arrogance, which are spiritually corrosive. Of course, Anakin himself is hardly lacking these flaws, but the idea is they should help each other to grow and then benefits can accrue ("Lifeforms living together for mutual advantage"). Yoda is pleased to hear Luke declare that he isn't afraid in TESB, giving him the opportunity to admonish him back: "Good. You will be, you will be." Where is this Yoda in TPM? Anakin comes to the Jedi Council significantly younger than Luke when he arrives on Dagobah. Is Luke somehow less attached than Anakin at more than twice his age? And if the future is "always in motion" according to TESB Yoda, how can a person's future be "clouded" (and that somehow considered bad) per TPM Yoda? It's not like Yoda says "the future is often in motion"; he specifically says always. That, to me, sounds like he has changed his thinking since the days of the PT and has become more relaxed (if still cautious) about what the future might bring. He understands that it's a haze of potential outcomes and isn't necessarily fated to go a particular way. Or Qui-Gon is just more pragmatic. He doesn't worry about Anakin's age or the fear that Yoda detects. After all, all sentient creatures experience fear. The difference is that Yoda is outwardly concerned about those aspects, while Qui-Gon is not. Thus, in a way, you're right, and Anakin is torn between two very different interpretations of the Force. They both have a valid point of view. However, it is somewhat easier for me to recognise that Qui-Gon is truly onto something; versus the bureaucratic stodginess of the Jedi Council, which seems to initially be defined by Yoda and Mace's great reservations (though it does elect to induct Anakin at the end against Yoda's own misgivings). ROTS Chapter 22: Jedi War Council
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Oct 27, 2022 19:39:43 GMT
Whether the Jedi "lost their way" or not is one of my favorite conundrums of the saga, so this discussion is something I like to see, and I welcome all viewpoints. It's stuff like this that gives Lucas' Star Wars such depth and ground for multiple angles of looking at things. I'm probably somewhere in the middle about this matter. I don't think the Jedi were completely lost, nor do I think they were perfect. I see multiple small hints that point to the Jedi having hubris and being overconfident in their own powers and authority. Mace is overconfident when he dismisses Padmé's concern that it was Dooku who tried to kill her, saying "Dooku was once a Jedi. He could not assassinate anyone, it's not in his character." Mace essentially thinks the Jedi are incorruptible. This line is further accentuated by the fact that Mace later tries to assassinate Palpatine himself. I think Lucas' point here was to showcase how the Jedi, who were already complacent by the time of TPM, further eroded their principles as the war went on. Another example is when Jocasta Nu very pridefully says "If an item does not appear in our records, it does not exist," outright dismissing the existence of an entire planet because it doesn't appear in the Jedi's records. Also, I think it's important that a regular Joe like Dex chastises Obi-Wan for relying too much on the Jedi's analysis droids, saying that "I should think you Jedi would have more respect for the difference between knowledge and wisdom." It is not the Jedi and their supposedly infinite archives of knowledge that find Kamino, it's a lowly diner owner. That frame you posted, Cryogenic , perfectly illustrates this point visually. The Jedi are used to being holed up in their temple, somewhat removed from the average person of the Republic, like Dex. |
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Post by smittysgelato on Oct 27, 2022 20:13:51 GMT
I wouldn't say the Jedi are evil sons of bitches or anything, but they definitely can't see clearly. After all, the Jedis keep losing their lightsabers. Losing your lightsaber is akin to failing to quiet your mind, which clouds your heart and prevents it from being porous or translucent to the Force. Feel, don't think, use your instincts and all that jazz.
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 27, 2022 20:37:51 GMT
Whether the Jedi "lost their way" or not is one of my favorite conundrums of the saga, so this discussion is something I like to see, and I welcome all viewpoints. It's stuff like this that gives Lucas' Star Wars such depth and ground for multiple angles of looking at things. I'm probably somewhere in the middle about this matter. I don't think the Jedi were completely lost, nor do I think they were perfect. I see multiple small hints that point to the Jedi having hubris and being overconfident in their own powers and authority. Mace is overconfident when he dismisses Padmé's concern that it was Dooku who tried to kill her, saying "Dooku was once a Jedi. He could not assassinate anyone, it's not in his character." Mace essentially thinks the Jedi are incorruptible. This line is further accentuated by the fact that Mace later tries to assassinate Palpatine himself. I think Lucas' point here was to showcase how the Jedi, who were already complacent by the time of TPM, further eroded their principles as the war went on. One visual hint of the Jedi having become compromised and neglectful -- tarnished, if you will -- is the state of the Jedi Temple floor in the main Council chamber. In TPM, it looks fairly pristine:  But in ROTS, there are obvious signs of mildew tainting the grand circular floor emblem:  Exactly. Jocasta's line is akin to her saying, "We already know everything we need to know". Not long after this, Padme dismisses Anakin as "still a Padawan learner", and Anakin takes offence to it (symbolising the pride and arrogance that has started to eat the Jedi Order up from the inside), although it's really the case that all Jedi should strive to remain Padawan learners in their hearts their whole lives. As the war intensifies, the Jedi lose a certain... humility, you might say. As a result, their minds become clouded, and none of them is able to really see the war for what it is. I wouldn't say the Jedi are evil sons of bitches or anything, but they definitely can't see clearly. After all, the Jedis keep losing their lightsabers. Losing your lightsaber is akin to failing to quiet your mind, which clouds your heart and prevents it from being porous or translucent to the Force. Feel, don't think, use your instincts and all that jazz. Yes. I love how, in TPM, Amidala and her entourage, including her Jedi protectors, all get down on their knees as she literally begs Boss Nass to help, pledging on their behalf that they are his humble servants. Nass may be a leader and Anakin is not, but it's hard to imagine the Jedi doing anything similar with Anakin. Amidala accords the Gungans respect, which earns a surprised response from Nass; while the Jedi use Anakin as a pawn in their scheme against Palpatine. The two may not be morally equivalent, but it's when people can't admit to problems and failings on both sides (e.g., Trump haters aggressively defending the Democrats against all criticism; and vice versa) that you end up with a highly polarised and dangerous situation. As the ROTS crawl itself says: "There are heroes on both sides." |
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Oct 27, 2022 21:15:04 GMT
Whether the Jedi "lost their way" or not is one of my favorite conundrums of the saga, so this discussion is something I like to see, and I welcome all viewpoints. It's stuff like this that gives Lucas' Star Wars such depth and ground for multiple angles of looking at things. I'm probably somewhere in the middle about this matter. I don't think the Jedi were completely lost, nor do I think they were perfect. I see multiple small hints that point to the Jedi having hubris and being overconfident in their own powers and authority. Mace is overconfident when he dismisses Padmé's concern that it was Dooku who tried to kill her, saying "Dooku was once a Jedi. He could not assassinate anyone, it's not in his character." Mace essentially thinks the Jedi are incorruptible. This line is further accentuated by the fact that Mace later tries to assassinate Palpatine himself. I think Lucas' point here was to showcase how the Jedi, who were already complacent by the time of TPM, further eroded their principles as the war went on. One visual hint of the Jedi having become compromised and neglectful -- tarnished, if you will -- is the state of the Jedi Temple floor in the main Council chamber. In TPM, it looks fairly pristine: But in ROTS, there are obvious signs of mildew tainting the grand circular floor emblem: Exactly. Jocasta's line is akin to her saying, "We already know everything we need to know". Not long after this, Padme dismisses Anakin as "still a Padawan learner", and Anakin takes offence to it (symbolising the pride and arrogance that has started to eat the Jedi Order up from the inside), although it's really the case that all Jedi should strive to remain Padawan learners in their hearts their whole lives. As the war intensifies, the Jedi lose a certain... humility, you might say. As a result, their minds become clouded, and none of them is able to really see the war for what it is. I wouldn't say the Jedi are evil sons of bitches or anything, but they definitely can't see clearly. After all, the Jedis keep losing their lightsabers. Losing your lightsaber is akin to failing to quiet your mind, which clouds your heart and prevents it from being porous or translucent to the Force. Feel, don't think, use your instincts and all that jazz. Yes. I love how, in TPM, Amidala and her entourage, including her Jedi protectors, all get down on their knees as she literally begs Boss Nass to help, pledging on their behalf that they are his humble servants. Nass may be a leader and Anakin is not, but it's hard to imagine the Jedi doing anything similar with Anakin. Amidala accords the Gungans respect, which earns a surprised response from Nass; while the Jedi use Anakin as a pawn in their scheme against Palpatine. The two may not be morally equivalent, but it's when people can't admit to problems and failings on both sides (e.g., Trump haters aggressively defending the Democrats against all criticism; and vice versa) that you end up with a highly polarised and dangerous situation. As the ROTS crawl itself says: "There are heroes on both sides." Wow, I never noticed that before, but looking at it now, it seems like a very significant detail. Takes a very sharp eye to catch something like that. I don't think I've yet to reach such mastery over the many mysteries of the saga.  But that is a great duo of frames for comparison otherwise as well. In TPM, the Council is still a solid unit, with them all traveling to Qui-Gon's funeral together. But by the time of RotS they are fragmented, some fighting on the battlefields and others doing other duties to lead the war. It is only Anakin who is left in the Council chambers, the one who they would not make a master. In some ways I can see that signifying that Anakin is the only Jedi who "sees through the lies of the Jedi". Anakin does ponder what the war has done to the Republic and the Jedi in his conversation with Padmé. He continues the line of thinking of his forebears Dooku and Qui-Gon. Sometime before I was thinking about how there are two camps in the Jedi lineage of Yoda/Dooku/Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan/Anakin: The by the book ones (Yoda and Obi-Wan) and the rebels (Dooku, Qui-Gon and Anakin). Jocasta Nu calls Dooku and Qui-Gon individual thinkers and idealists who were out of step with the Council. Neither of them was on the Council, while Anakin was only admitted so they could spy on Palpatine. Anakin sitting there alone in the Council chambers is a symbolically strong image. He was denied the rank of master, so he destroyed the Jedi to become a master of the dark side instead. There was no longer a council of many, but instead he would sit on a sole throne on Mustafar (at least in Disney canon). I see some resonance there. |
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 27, 2022 21:59:02 GMT
Wow, I never noticed that before, but looking at it now, it seems like a very significant detail. Takes a very sharp eye to catch something like that. I don't think I've yet to reach such mastery over the many mysteries of the saga. It's a pretty cool detail, right? Don't be so hard on yourself, though. I remember someone else pointing it out years ago on TFN. Unfortunately, I can't remember who. It's for observations like that that I became so drawn into the world of the prequels and such an addict of discussing them online. Yeah, I noticed what I nice dyad they made when I lined them up. In so many ways, the resonances between them go to the very essence of your thread. There's definitely a theme in ROTS of Jedi disappearing and turning into "ghosts" -- whether holograms, flickers of their old selves, or in the case of Qui-Gon, a literal ghost (that GL editorially ghosted out of the final cut). And yep, what delicious irony that Anakin, the Jedi outcast, is the one left alone in the Council chambers, to stew in his own juices, without any of the actual Jedi Masters for company. A powerful image, indeed. You can really see how much of a visual storyteller Lucas is in frames like the one(s) above. If we're citing the live-action Disney television shows, then the loneliness of Anakin is also touched on in "The Mandalorian" (by Ahoska in "Chapter 13: The Jedi"). Your musings on Jedi lineage call to mind many posts made by the TFN poster HevyDevy. He has previously noted a line of rebellious descent, I think, within the quintet you outlined (Yoda/Dooku/Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan/Anakin). While neither Qui-Gon nor Dooku were ever on the Jedi Council, they were both Masters. Anakin's arc is the inverse: He sits on the Jedi Council, but is denied the rank of Master. He's also the temperamental inverse: He craves being granted the rank of Master, while neither Qui-Gon nor Dooku ever cared to be on the Council. In a way, maturity is about not being attached to certain outcomes. So there's some irony in the fact that Qui-Gon avoids turning to the Dark Side, while Dooku and Anakin, despite being temperamentally different, both fell for its allure. |
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Post by Alexrd on Oct 28, 2022 10:21:45 GMT
But it's Qui-Gon who places emphasis on it. Yoda and the other members of the Jedi Council do not. On the contrary, they have a tepid response to Anakin, and they order Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan back to Naboo to protect Amidala; What does that got to do with the living Force though? That's what I was discussing. The Jedi Council doesn't specifically mention the living Force therefore they are dismissing it somehow? That doesn't make sense. They don't mention a lot of things. but, more importantly, to discover the identity of the "dark warrior". Should that not happen? I mean, to ascertain the return of the Sith is quite important in my opinion. They are focused more on the "cosmic" part of the equation (i.e., keeping everything in balance). Ironically, in order to obtain that balance, they really need Anakin, but the testing scene makes clear that Yoda is spooked by the high level of fear he senses in Anakin, so they defer the matter. Already, they lean away from Anakin, while Qui-Gon leans toward him -- a pivotal difference. Of course there is a difference. Qui-Gon believes that he's worthy of being trained because of what he's destined to do, and the Council (specially Yoda) does not because of Anakin's present reality, an important point which Qui-Gon dismisses. It might be a risk to accept Anakin and Luke, but a rich existence, as Joseph Campbell eloquently expounded on, requires accepting and taking on risk. Star Wars itself would not exist had George Lucas not taken some risks (and he rightly lamented Hollywood's aversion to risk-taking in his interview with Charlie Rose in 2015). Yes, they make interesting stories. That's not the point I'm arguing. The Jedi have walled themselves away from risk, hoping it would never pass through their gate. Of course, that's a major error on their part, and they pay dearly for it. Wait, that's not what happened. It was Anakin who betrayed them and brought them to near extinction. Anakin, the person they took a risk on, the person who they allowed in. And Anakin fell by disregarding all the Jedi taught him and stood for. All institutions are vulnerable to collapse and the sun sets on all empires in the end. Life is all about being flexible enough to adapt to changing circumstances. Aversion to change breeds stagnation and arrogance, which are spiritually corrosive. The Jedi are well trained to accept change. But the change is the circumstances that are unavoidable, the different times and adversities they are faced with on a day to day basis. Not to change their ways for the sake of change. That's folly. There's a reason why their ways are the way they are. Disregarding age old wisdom is a sign of arrogance, which in the end was what led Anakin away from the light and into the darkness. It's also how the Sith first came into being. By disregarding the wisdom of the Jedi and claiming themselves to know better. To change their ways. To take the risks that the Jedi resist or don't indulge in. After all, why not use the power of the dark side? Yoda is pleased to hear Luke declare that he isn't afraid in TESB, giving him the opportunity to admonish him back: "Good. You will be, you will be." No, he's not pleased at all. That's a display of arrogance from Luke, and he's warning him right away that he will be afraid. Where is this Yoda in TPM? Anakin comes to the Jedi Council significantly younger than Luke when he arrives on Dagobah. Is Luke somehow less attached than Anakin at more than twice his age? Yoda is right there, explaining Anakin why his fear is of the utmost importance in order for someone to become a Jedi. And if the future is "always in motion" according to TESB Yoda, how can a person's future be "clouded" (and that somehow considered bad) per TPM Yoda? It's not like Yoda says "the future is often in motion"; he specifically says always. That, to me, sounds like he has changed his thinking since the days of the PT and has become more relaxed (if still cautious) about what the future might bring. He understands that it's a haze of potential outcomes and isn't necessarily fated to go a particular way. There's no change at all. The future is always in motion. That doesn't mean the Jedi can't sense the future. Foresight is Jedi trait. That's why sensing the future and meditating on it is something that requires great care and patience, not impulsive reactions. Because the future is always in motion. The Jedi are trained to do that, to learn how the foresight can inform their decisions, avoid mistakes, and accept those possibilities. The Sith do the same, except their act on the foresight to further their own goals, in order to lead that future to reality. Or Qui-Gon is just more pragmatic. He doesn't worry about Anakin's age or the fear that Yoda detects. After all, all sentient creatures experience fear. The difference is that Yoda is outwardly concerned about those aspects, while Qui-Gon is not. Of course all creatures experience fear. Both the dark and light sides are accessible to all living beings. That's why it's important to start training at a very young age, so that they can better train to let go of that fear and not give into it. Anakin was never able to overcome his fear, he chose to disregarding his training and give into it, which led to his downfall. Luke did the same, but he realized his mistake before it was too late. Anakin did the opposite, he rationalized his mistake, and he fell further. |
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Post by Alexrd on Oct 28, 2022 11:00:48 GMT
Whether the Jedi "lost their way" or not is one of my favorite conundrums of the saga, so this discussion is something I like to see, and I welcome all viewpoints. It's stuff like this that gives Lucas' Star Wars such depth and ground for multiple angles of looking at things. I'm probably somewhere in the middle about this matter. I don't think the Jedi were completely lost, nor do I think they were perfect. I see multiple small hints that point to the Jedi having hubris and being overconfident in their own powers and authority. Nobody is perfect. But there's a difference between individuals having flaws and the Jedi Order and their ways being flawed. That individuals have flaws is not something up to debate. They do have flaws. It's stated by the characters themselves. But they are flaws by Jedi standards, and those standards are true. Not wrong, ambiguous or requiring a change. All invididuals are in constant struggle with the dark side, and the Jedi are those who resist it the most. Some more than others, but they all strive to do it, because of the Jedi way. Mace is overconfident when he dismisses Padmé's concern that it was Dooku who tried to kill her, saying "Dooku was once a Jedi. He could not assassinate anyone, it's not in his character." Mace essentially thinks the Jedi are incorruptible. That's quite a jump to make. Nowhere does Mace think the Jedi are incorruptible. The Jedi of all people are well aware that nobody is immune to corruption and the dark side. What he's saying is that he knew Dooku, and on the face of Padmé's wild accusation (wild because it's unsubstantiated, not because it's false) he can't simply disregard his first hand knowledge of the person. Of course, the fact that Dooku had fallen is something nobody is aware of, and that's part of why Mace says what he says. This line is further accentuated by the fact that Mace later tries to assassinate Palpatine himself. I think Lucas' point here was to showcase how the Jedi, who were already complacent by the time of TPM, further eroded their principles as the war went on. Their principles are not in question. Lucas developed that scene precisely to show how Mace was forced to into that decision. He went there to arrest Palpatine. Palpatine resisted and murdered three Jedi, and tried to murder Mace. Then Mace disarmed him and declared him under arrest, again. Then Palpatine tried to murder him again with the powers of the dark side. The take away is not "look of Mace Windu has fallen". That was not the point of the scene. Another example is when Jocasta Nu very pridefully says "If an item does not appear in our records, it does not exist," outright dismissing the existence of an entire planet because it doesn't appear in the Jedi's records. Yes, that's an example of arrogance. Yet the planet did exist in the records. The arrogance is that she couldn't conceive a way that information could be missing. Obi-Wan realizes that something is wrong ang goes find out. Which culminates with the youngling who, encouraged by Yoda, points to the truth. It's an example of clarity from the young. Also, I think it's important that a regular Joe like Dex chastises Obi-Wan for relying too much on the Jedi's analysis droids, saying that "I should think you Jedi would have more respect for the difference between knowledge and wisdom." It is not the Jedi and their supposedly infinite archives of knowledge that find Kamino, it's a lowly diner owner. The point that Dex is making is not against the Jedi relying too much on analysis droids, but to reinforce the difference between droids and people. Droids can't think, they can only provide what they are programmed to do. They were programmed to access information from the archives, and the archives were tampered. So they become "useless" in that regard. People are different, their first hand knowledge is not bound to a database. Obi-Wan is well aware of that (it's why he's there to begin with), and his reply shows it. The Jedi are used to being holed up in their temple, somewhat removed from the average person of the Republic, like Dex. That's another claim that doesn't hold. Since when are the Jedi holed up in their temple? Most Jedi are spread across the galaxy attending to their duties, not in the temple. Some Jedi do stay in the temple, but very few. They stay to teach the young and to be of service to others.
Speaking of archives, how do you think the Jedi Archives have the (ever increasing) information it has? From Jedi holed up in the temple?
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Post by Ingram on Oct 28, 2022 20:47:04 GMT
Also, I think it's important that a regular Joe like Dex chastises Obi-Wan for relying too much on the Jedi's analysis droids, saying that "I should think you Jedi would have more respect for the difference between knowledge and wisdom." It is not the Jedi and their supposedly infinite archives of knowledge that find Kamino, it's a lowly diner owner. That frame you posted, Cryogenic ... ...perfectly illustrates this point visually. The Jedi are used to being holed up in their temple, somewhat removed from the average person of the Republic, like Dex. I've since affirmed my 'good riddance' point of view to all the completed scene material Lucas deleted from the PT on grounds of structure, economy and editorial flow, and I stand by it ...all with perhaps the slightest exception of but one little seemingly throwaway moment: It continues with all the distinct and endearing traits of Episode II including the polite formality of Jedi institutional goings-on, the retro Flash Gordonesque futurism; here, featuring those sleek pharma interiors offset with color pop along with Lucas' first-stage videographic gauze; the overall quieted, electronic humming ambience of the scene and even gumshoe Obi-Wan rubbing his beard in thought.
But it's also salient with coded imagery: Holy bonkers if that's not the Jedi Order storyline of the PT in an instant, and with Obi-Wan no less staring right at it yet oblivious.
Also, I love McGregor's B-serial 'epiphany' acting:
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 28, 2022 20:57:35 GMT
We're in danger of capsizing this thread, so I'm only going to quote a few parts, and I'll try to be brief... But it's Qui-Gon who places emphasis on it. Yoda and the other members of the Jedi Council do not. On the contrary, they have a tepid response to Anakin, and they order Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan back to Naboo to protect Amidala; What does that got to do with the living Force though? That's what I was discussing. The Jedi Council doesn't specifically mention the living Force therefore they are dismissing it somehow? That doesn't make sense. They don't mention a lot of things. They're not dismissing it and that's not what I said. I said Qui-Gon places emphasis on it. It's about the respective emphasis and weight each character or organisation gives an idea or concept. Or to use Qui-Gon's wording: "Your focus determines your reality." Like how there are many different denominations of Christianity, for example, or different factions within the same political party, so not all Jedi are alike or put equal stock in the same things. The very fact the Force breaks down into different components, as revealed by the PT, is interesting. In the OT, Vader referring to the Cosmic Force was cut; and I believe the term "Living Force" didn't occur before the PT. And Lucas chose to put that term in the mouth of Qui-Gon and Qui-Gon alone. George Lucas never just does a thing "just because". Every choice is inflected with meaning. Again, this is different from saying that the other Jedi dismiss the concept of the Living Force. It's not like anyone rolls their eyes or tells Qui-Gon he's speaking a load of rubbish when he uses the term; it's more nuanced than that. Nevertheless, Lucas very obviously uses Qui-Gon and his brushes with the Council, along with Obi-Wan's frustration at his Master's divergent ways, to imply that the Jedi Order has lost its way a little bit; or, at the least, to suggest councils and organisations have severe limitations. Qui-Gon is very much an avatar of individualism (within the collective super-structure of the Jedi Order and the Galactic Republic), and it isn't for nothing that he attracts and places trust in very individual people, like Jar Jar and Anakin; and later, when he sees what she is really up to, Amidala. "Wait, that's not what happened." Actually, it is -- and so is your interpretation. That's the whole deal with Star Wars. It's all about points of view. Nothing is entirely one thing or the other. I refuse to go down a road of absolutism here. Mace, too, clearly disregarded what he was taught in trying to execute Palpatine. It wasn't as if Anakin was uniquely tainted or that nothing the other Jedi said or did ever impacted him. To start with a meek kid like Anakin was in Episode I, and end with him being a Sith Lord by the end of Episode III, really took some doing on the part of many people. Many people, many factors. "Disregarding age old wisdom is a sign of arrogance." That's funny; because you're disregarding Joseph Campbell here, who syncretised the wisdom of ages past (and who was a major influence on Lucas in both trilogies), and I think you know it. Inflexibility equals machinic rigidity equals fascism. If the Jedi were so full of light and purity, then it's certainly interesting that the Galactic Republic became the Galactic Empire on their watch. He's pleased that he has some raw material to hammer into shape. Yes, Luke is displaying arrogance. Although, personally, I'd call it brash determination. Obviously, Luke has an ego, and Yoda is looking forward to cutting that ego down a peg or two. In TPM, Yoda has a very different attitude to Anakin. Suddenly, fear is a big problem; yet in TESB, Yoda tells Anakin's son that he'll soon be experiencing fear as if this is some necessary adversary that must be overcome. Great. Then could you tell that to TPM Yoda, who clearly worries about the future, and is reluctant to accept Anakin because his future is "clouded"? Yoda clearly needs to get back in the meditation room and maybe smoke some hashish. Tell Mace to spike his cookies. Something is amiss if Yoda can sagaciously say that "always in motion is the future" in TESB, yet only perceive a "clouded" one for Anakin in TPM. It sounds like TPM Yoda needs to re-tune his Force television. |
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Post by Somny on Oct 28, 2022 21:00:18 GMT
I've since affirmed my 'good riddance' point of view to all the completed scene material Lucas deleted from the PT on grounds of structure, economy and editorial flow, and I stand by it ...all with perhaps the slightest exception of but one little seemingly throwaway moment: It continues with all the distinct and endearing traits of Episode II including the polite formality of Jedi institutional goings-on, the retro Flash Gordonesque futurism; here, featuring those sleek pharma interiors offset with color pop along with Lucas' first-stage videographic gauze; the overall quieted, electronic humming ambience of the scene and even gumshoe Obi-Wan rubbing his beard in thought.
But it's also salient with coded imagery: Holy bonkers if that's not the Jedi Order storyline of the PT in an instant, and with Obi-Wan no less staring right at it yet oblivious.
Also, I love McGregor's B-serial 'epiphany' acting: With one fell swoop... |
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 28, 2022 21:10:11 GMT
Also, I think it's important that a regular Joe like Dex chastises Obi-Wan for relying too much on the Jedi's analysis droids, saying that "I should think you Jedi would have more respect for the difference between knowledge and wisdom." It is not the Jedi and their supposedly infinite archives of knowledge that find Kamino, it's a lowly diner owner. That frame you posted, Cryogenic ... ...perfectly illustrates this point visually. The Jedi are used to being holed up in their temple, somewhat removed from the average person of the Republic, like Dex. I've since affirmed my 'good riddance' point of view to all the completed scene material Lucas deleted from the PT on grounds of structure, economy and editorial flow, and I stand by it ...all with perhaps the slightest exception of but one little seemingly throwaway moment: It continues with all the distinct and endearing traits of Episode II including the polite formality of Jedi institutional goings-on, the retro Flash Gordonesque futurism; here, featuring those sleek pharma interiors offset with color pop along with Lucas' first-stage videographic gauze; the overall quieted, electronic humming ambience of the scene and even gumshoe Obi-Wan rubbing his beard in thought.
But it's also salient with coded imagery: Holy bonkers if that's not the Jedi Order storyline of the PT in an instant, and with Obi-Wan no less staring right at it yet oblivious.
Also, I love McGregor's B-serial 'epiphany' acting:
I like it because of the cool robots.  |
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Post by Ingram on Oct 28, 2022 21:21:13 GMT
I like it because of the cool robots. One of them even has a spiky hair mohawk, as if he attends punk milieus during his off hours.
Also, Obi-Wan swivels in his chair while waiting for analysis results. That's a fun detail: Jedi business, indeed.
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Post by stampidhd280pro on Oct 28, 2022 21:21:19 GMT
Having that sequence right before we meet Dex really does add to the Star Warsiness, doesn't it? I'll have to make a personal cut one day.
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 28, 2022 21:30:16 GMT
Yep, nice little scene. Not essential, but good imagery and "everyday" mood. Obi at the office.
Although, I personally think that the two most lamentable deletions in the whole Saga (including the ST) are in AOTC and TLJ.
I really wish Lucas had kept the extended arrival scene of Anakin and Padme on Naboo. Great imagery there that shows off a lightly-accentuated (digitally-altered) real-world location, and you get a very human portrait of the two of them. The shortened in-film version is okay, but it sometimes feels the film is missing one more longer scene on Naboo between the two. We have the meadow and the dinner/fireplace scenes; the longer arrival scene, in my opinion, is the one that got away. As for TLJ (and yes, I know this isn't the Disney section), I think it was a mistake to remove Luke's second lesson.
Honourable mentions:
- The extended podrace sequence in TPM.
- The sandstorm and Jerjerrod being ordered to turn the Death Star on Endor in ROTJ.
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Post by Somny on Oct 28, 2022 21:30:17 GMT
One of them even has a spiky hair mohawk, as if he attends punk milieus during his off hours. Also, Obi-Wan swivels in his chair while waiting for analysis results. That's a fun detail: Jedi business, indeed.
The Akira reference in the form of that parallel reading device is a nice touch too. No doubt the influence of a geeky concept artist. |
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But that is a great duo of frames for comparison otherwise as well. In TPM, the Council is still a solid unit, with them all traveling to Qui-Gon's funeral together. But by the time of RotS they are fragmented, some fighting on the battlefields and others doing other duties to lead the war. It is only Anakin who is left in the Council chambers, the one who they would not make a master. In some ways I can see that signifying that Anakin is the only Jedi who "sees through the lies of the Jedi". Anakin does ponder what the war has done to the Republic and the Jedi in his conversation with Padmé. He continues the line of thinking of his forebears Dooku and Qui-Gon. Sometime before I was thinking about how there are two camps in the Jedi lineage of Yoda/Dooku/Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan/Anakin: The by the book ones (Yoda and Obi-Wan) and the rebels (Dooku, Qui-Gon and Anakin). Jocasta Nu calls Dooku and Qui-Gon individual thinkers and idealists who were out of step with the Council. Neither of them was on the Council, while Anakin was only admitted so they could spy on Palpatine. Anakin sitting there alone in the Council chambers is a symbolically strong image. He was denied the rank of master, so he destroyed the Jedi to become a master of the dark side instead. There was no longer a council of many, but instead he would sit on a sole throne on Mustafar (at least in Disney canon). I see some resonance there.
