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Post by Ingram on Oct 28, 2022 21:33:34 GMT
Having that sequence right before we meet Dex really does add to the Star Warsiness, doesn't it? I'll have to make a personal cut one day. It's weird to consider that one day such an option will be so readily available and integrated user-friendly into personal/home media technology as to allow for a totally seamless, top quality cut of the movie. Weird, and alarming. We may all soon become analysis droids.
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 28, 2022 21:37:22 GMT
We may all soon become analysis droids. Speak for yourself! I've been an analysis droid for 17+ years, my dear Ingram. |
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Post by stampidhd280pro on Oct 28, 2022 21:42:43 GMT
Yep, nice little scene. Not essential, but good imagery and "everyday" mood. Obi at the office. Although, I personally think that the two most lamentable deletions in the whole Saga (including the ST) are in AOTC and TLJ. I really wish Lucas had kept the extended arrival scene of Anakin and Padme on Naboo. Great imagery there that shows off a lightly-accentuated (digitally-altered) real-world location, and you get a very human portrait of the two of them. The shortened in-film version is okay, but it sometimes feels the film is missing one more longer scene on Naboo between the two. We have the meadow and the dinner/fireplace scenes; the longer arrival scene, in my opinion, is the one that got away. As for TLJ (and yes, I know this isn't the Disney section), I think it was a mistake to remove Luke's second lesson. Honourable mentions: - The extended podrace sequence in TPM. - The sandstorm and Jerjerrod being ordered to turn the Death Star on Endor in ROTJ. The second lesson was the Force Nun party? |
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Post by Ingram on Oct 28, 2022 21:50:03 GMT
We may all soon become analysis droids. Speak for yourself! I've been an analysis droid for 17+ years, my dear Ingram. here it comes...
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Oct 28, 2022 21:52:24 GMT
Whether the Jedi "lost their way" or not is one of my favorite conundrums of the saga, so this discussion is something I like to see, and I welcome all viewpoints. It's stuff like this that gives Lucas' Star Wars such depth and ground for multiple angles of looking at things. I'm probably somewhere in the middle about this matter. I don't think the Jedi were completely lost, nor do I think they were perfect. I see multiple small hints that point to the Jedi having hubris and being overconfident in their own powers and authority. Nobody is perfect. But there's a difference between individuals having flaws and the Jedi Order and their ways being flawed. That individuals have flaws is not something up to debate. They do have flaws. It's stated by the characters themselves. But they are flaws by Jedi standards, and those standards are true. Not wrong, ambiguous or requiring a change. All invididuals are in constant struggle with the dark side, and the Jedi are those who resist it the most. Some more than others, but they all strive to do it, because of the Jedi way. Mace is overconfident when he dismisses Padmé's concern that it was Dooku who tried to kill her, saying "Dooku was once a Jedi. He could not assassinate anyone, it's not in his character." Mace essentially thinks the Jedi are incorruptible. That's quite a jump to make. Nowhere does Mace think the Jedi are incorruptible. The Jedi of all people are well aware that nobody is immune to corruption and the dark side. What he's saying is that he knew Dooku, and on the face of Padmé's wild accusation (wild because it's unsubstantiated, not because it's false) he can't simply disregard his first hand knowledge of the person. Of course, the fact that Dooku had fallen is something nobody is aware of, and that's part of why Mace says what he says. This line is further accentuated by the fact that Mace later tries to assassinate Palpatine himself. I think Lucas' point here was to showcase how the Jedi, who were already complacent by the time of TPM, further eroded their principles as the war went on. Their principles are not in question. Lucas developed that scene precisely to show how Mace was forced to into that decision. He went there to arrest Palpatine. Palpatine resisted and murdered three Jedi, and tried to murder Mace. Then Mace disarmed him and declared him under arrest, again. Then Palpatine tried to murder him again with the powers of the dark side. The take away is not "look of Mace Windu has fallen". That was not the point of the scene. Another example is when Jocasta Nu very pridefully says "If an item does not appear in our records, it does not exist," outright dismissing the existence of an entire planet because it doesn't appear in the Jedi's records. Yes, that's an example of arrogance. Yet the planet did exist in the records. The arrogance is that she couldn't conceive a way that information could be missing. Obi-Wan realizes that something is wrong ang goes find out. Which culminates with the youngling who, encouraged by Yoda, points to the truth. It's an example of clarity from the young. Also, I think it's important that a regular Joe like Dex chastises Obi-Wan for relying too much on the Jedi's analysis droids, saying that "I should think you Jedi would have more respect for the difference between knowledge and wisdom." It is not the Jedi and their supposedly infinite archives of knowledge that find Kamino, it's a lowly diner owner. The point that Dex is making is not against the Jedi relying too much on analysis droids, but to reinforce the difference between droids and people. Droids can't think, they can only provide what they are programmed to do. They were programmed to access information from the archives, and the archives were tampered. So they become "useless" in that regard. People are different, their first hand knowledge is not bound to a database. Obi-Wan is well aware of that (it's why he's there to begin with), and his reply shows it. The Jedi are used to being holed up in their temple, somewhat removed from the average person of the Republic, like Dex. That's another claim that doesn't hold. Since when are the Jedi holed up in their temple? Most Jedi are spread across the galaxy attending to their duties, not in the temple. Some Jedi do stay in the temple, but very few. They stay to teach the young and to be of service to others.
Speaking of archives, how do you think the Jedi Archives have the (ever increasing) information it has? From Jedi holed up in the temple?
I think the Jedi Code and the principles they are supposed to uphold are sound, but that the members of the Jedi Order, particularly the leadership, the Council, have become complacent and somewhat arrogant. I believe Lucas' idea was to showcase how not even the Jedi were totally immune to the rot of the Republic. The Jedi were not corrupt, but they aligned themselves with a corrupt senate, and for one reason or another didn't seem to do much about it. Dooku left the Order for that very reason, and while his methods were completely overblown extremism, he had a point. Qui-Gon knew about the corruption in the senate and for that reason he often disobeyed the Council. Anakin also questioned the integrity of the Jedi and the Republic they served. All three were seen as rebels within the Order. Coupled with Yoda's remarks that arrogance was "More and more common among the Jedi" and that "Too sure of themselves they are, even the older, more experienced ones," which Palpatine later says about Yoda himself, I'm led to believe that the "old guard" of the Jedi had become complacent and arrogant. The Jedi were a proud tradition in a previous age, but by the time of TPM, they are on the decline. Mace doesn't say "I once knew Dooku, he couldn't assassinate anyone", he specifically says "Dooku was once a Jedi, he couldn't assassinate anyone" and thus "It's not in his character." Mace's statement makes it clear that he thinks Dooku can't be behind the assassination attempt because he was a former Jedi. There is an intentional parallel between Mace and Palpatine's "He's too dangerous to be left alive" moments. It was wrong for Anakin to execute a disarmed Dooku, and it was wrong for Mace to attempt to execute a seemingly disarmed and weak Palpatine. It's meant to be a moment for Anakin where he sees the hypocrisy of the Jedi. I should have said that the Council is holed up in the temple spire. They send others to do their bidding, like sending Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan alone to face Maul. We don't know how the Jedi acquired all their information in the archives. It may have been from Jedi who were on missions across the galaxy, or by some other means. |
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 28, 2022 21:53:19 GMT
Yep, nice little scene. Not essential, but good imagery and "everyday" mood. Obi at the office. Although, I personally think that the two most lamentable deletions in the whole Saga (including the ST) are in AOTC and TLJ. I really wish Lucas had kept the extended arrival scene of Anakin and Padme on Naboo. Great imagery there that shows off a lightly-accentuated (digitally-altered) real-world location, and you get a very human portrait of the two of them. The shortened in-film version is okay, but it sometimes feels the film is missing one more longer scene on Naboo between the two. We have the meadow and the dinner/fireplace scenes; the longer arrival scene, in my opinion, is the one that got away. As for TLJ (and yes, I know this isn't the Disney section), I think it was a mistake to remove Luke's second lesson. Honourable mentions: - The extended podrace sequence in TPM. - The sandstorm and Jerjerrod being ordered to turn the Death Star on Endor in ROTJ. The second lesson was the Force Nun party? Yep. It's quite a weighty sequence. There's some obvious comedy there, bordering on camp, but there's also a serious outcome. Luke trolls Rey and then Rey turns the tables on Luke at the end. Both are significantly changed by the lesson. Rey storms off in an emotional huff (which then makes her more vulnerable to Kylo and sets up her going into the cave), while Luke decides to reconnect with the Force and learns that Leia is incapacitated after feeling guilty because Rey tore a strip out of him. The lesson also gives us Luke's strongest indictment of the Jedi. He clearly believes they denied passion in ways that were counter-productive -- instead of rebuking Rey for her impulsivity, he claims this is what the Jedi actually suppressed to their detriment. Rey, too, has more agency and character depth because of this sequence. We see her valiantly racing to help when she thinks the islanders are being attacked, much as she decides to bundle herself off to the First Order to save Kylo. It is also a sequence that borders on feeling complete, containing a very strong version of Rey's Theme as she runs to the neighbouring island, lightsaber drawn (which also gives the middle section of the film some welcome uplift). I know the excuse is always "pacing", but it's strange that it got cut, in my opinion. |
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 28, 2022 22:00:29 GMT
By the way...
Nice to see that this thread has now passed the 500-post mark. 
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Oct 28, 2022 22:03:40 GMT
By the way...
Nice to see that this thread has now passed the 500-post mark. I may have gone too far in a few places...  |
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 28, 2022 22:11:43 GMT
By the way...
Nice to see that this thread has now passed the 500-post mark. I may have gone too far in a few places... Me, too.  |
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Post by jppiper on Oct 29, 2022 3:16:36 GMT
Yep, nice little scene. Not essential, but good imagery and "everyday" mood. Obi at the office. Although, I personally think that the two most lamentable deletions in the whole Saga (including the ST) are in AOTC and TLJ. I really wish Lucas had kept the extended arrival scene of Anakin and Padme on Naboo. Great imagery there that shows off a lightly-accentuated (digitally-altered) real-world location, and you get a very human portrait of the two of them. The shortened in-film version is okay, but it sometimes feels the film is missing one more longer scene on Naboo between the two. We have the meadow and the dinner/fireplace scenes; the longer arrival scene, in my opinion, is the one that got away. As for TLJ (and yes, I know this isn't the Disney section), I think it was a mistake to remove Luke's second lesson. Honourable mentions: - The extended podrace sequence in TPM. - The sandstorm and Jerjerrod being ordered to turn the Death Star on Endor in ROTJ. More Honourable Mentions Anakin fighting a Young Greedo in TPM Padme and the Origins of the Rebellion and Yoda going to Dagobah in ROTS |
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Post by smittysgelato on Oct 29, 2022 4:18:23 GMT
I for one am mourning the loss of that scene where Anakin meets Padme's parental units because we are provided with more of that glorious Padme midriff!!!!
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 29, 2022 7:04:29 GMT
I for one am mourning the loss of that scene where Anakin meets Padme's parental units because we are provided with more of that glorious Padme midriff!!!! Yeah, true. I also really love her hair in that scene. Phenomenal styling. Oh, and the kids playing with Artoo outside. And how accepting her family is of Anakin. Very wholesome. |
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Post by smittysgelato on Oct 29, 2022 19:56:57 GMT
But, don't we just simply love her everything?
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Post by stampidhd280pro on Oct 30, 2022 2:29:57 GMT
One of the best things about casting Natalie Portman as Padme is that you can project just about any young woman of any ethnicity onto her. Is that just me?
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Post by smittysgelato on Oct 30, 2022 4:16:03 GMT
One of the best things about casting Natalie Portman as Padme is that you can project just about any young woman of any ethnicity onto her. Is that just me? Personally I don't see that. |
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Post by Ingram on Oct 30, 2022 9:29:16 GMT
One of the best things about casting Natalie Portman as Padme is that you can project just about any young woman of any ethnicity onto her. Is that just me? Jewish, Italian, Portuguese, Turkish, Black Irish... maybe. Samoan? Not so much.
I guess technically she does look Nubian.
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Post by stampidhd280pro on Oct 30, 2022 12:42:57 GMT
*just about* i said. I guess it's a reach, but ethnic ambiguity could have played a part in her casting. I wouldn't be surprised.
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 31, 2022 4:25:45 GMT
*just about* i said. I guess it's a reach, but ethnic ambiguity could have played a part in her casting. I wouldn't be surprised. She's sort of generically "ethnic" as Queen Amidala, but more obviously American/European as her more "human" self of Padme. I guess that's because humans are both single, self-enclosed individuals and an implacable, blank-face multitude. |
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Nov 10, 2022 8:35:01 GMT
Palpatine has often been said to have been modeled after the witch in Snow White, but I think the villainess of Kalevala, Louhi, might have influenced Lucas in this regard. She's a shapeshifter, which Palpatine is too in a way, and here you can see her grey, wrinkly face.  And the character of Väinämöinen, seen here with the sword, I would liken to Qui-Gon as a wise old man, warrior and sort of shamanistic character. Väinämöinen has powers that the other characters don't have, such as a magical singing voice. He's sort of the lead character just like Qui-Gon is in TPM, even though there are other major heroes like Lemminkäinen, who I've before likened to Anakin. |
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Post by Samnz on Nov 10, 2022 13:49:49 GMT
Keeping the "Droid analysis scene" is an interesting choice I haven't often heard before, but it probably - just for the audience - could have helped to make clear that droids are fallible and not everything they say has to be taken at face value. Later in Episode III, the medical droids even admit they "can't explain what happened" and still most of the audience interpret their words way too literal. What many fans don't to seem to realize is that George thinks in much broader terms and this extents to Padmé's death, but also making Leia a princess and Luke farmer and Anakin the Chosen One and the Jedi knights. This is not meant to have much literal meaning in the story, yet it is supposed to evoke certain images and ideas and allow viewers to make associations and give the characters historical and mythological substance.
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