General grievances (random fan rants)
Dec 22, 2020 4:18:21 GMT
Somny and thephantomcalamari like this
Post by Cryogenic on Dec 22, 2020 4:18:21 GMT
It's one of those odd topics: How do you measure happiness? Is happiness an ideal even worth aspiring to? As for psychologically healthy and intellectually well-rounded? Same deal, I think. However, I feel that the on-screen evidence I've cited suggests the Jedi aren't particularly intellectually well-rounded, even if they've made some effort in that direction. Ultimately, philosophically speaking, their underlying approach is rational and explicable, even if some of their methods and fruits are questionable.
I actually wrote a more defensive tract on the Jedi Order (seeing the good but still acknowledging their flaws) for a document I'm working on. I could keep it under wraps exclusively for the document, but now seems like a suitable occasion to share it:
Although often compared to Buddhist monks and the strict ethos of samurai warriors, the Jedi also have a lot in common with the Stoics of Ancient Greece:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism
This sounds a heck of a lot like Qui-Gon's injunction to Obi-Wan at the start of Episode I -- and by extension, an epigram for the PT Jedi (and the viewer) in general:
QUI-GON: Don't focus on your anxieties, Obi-Wan. Keep your concentration here and now, where it begins.
OBI-WAN: But Master Yoda said I should be mindful of the future.
QUI-GON: But not at the expense of the moment. Be mindful of the Living Force, my young padawan.
And his reliance on logic, or calm reasoning, is demonstrated later on, when he coolly rebuts the naysaying, hot-headed Captain Panaka:
PANAKA: You can't take our Royal Highness there. The Hutts are gangsters. If they discover her...
QUI-GON: It'll be no different than if we land on a system controlled by the Trade Federation. Except that the Hutts aren't looking for her. Which gives us the advantage.
Equally, attempting to treat other people fairly and justly is a high Jedi ideal -- even if the Jedi sometimes fall short of it in rude reality. Even Qui-Gon is first annoyed by Jar Jar, after all.
Continuing down the Wikipedia description:
This could well be describing the Jedi's attitude to Dooku. He may have left the order with a lot of material wealth to draw upon, but they don't see this as a bad thing in and of itself. Similarly, we sometimes see Jedi smiling and having fun, or drawing amusement from a situation, but these aren't ends in and of themselves. They continuously strive to be virtuous -- in the pursuit of a higher good.
Once more, this same outlook is also neatly summed up in a line by Qui-Gon:
QUI-GON: Greed can be a powerful ally.
Back to the Wikipedia description:
The Jedi see nature and the Force as one. As Obi-Wan describes the Force to Luke in ANH: "It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us and binds the galaxy together." The Jedi attempt to comport themselves to the will of the Force, because that's essentially what being a Jedi is -- even if, in the timeframe of the PT, they often unwittingly serve the whims of the Republic and its corrupt leaders.
Once again, we also have a resonance with the above description from Qui-Gon, who tells Jar Jar:
QUI-GON: The ability to speak does not make you intelligent.
Not to mention Yoda instructing Luke in the Original Trilogy:
YODA: Do or do not. There is no try.
There are also Qui-Gon's words to Anakin on Coruscant concerning the midi-chlorians:
QUI-GON: They continually speak to us, telling us the will of the Force. When you quiet your mind, you'll hear them speaking to you.
To return to the Wikipedia description once more:
The Jedi place great emphasis on mental discipline, of clearing the mind of negative thoughts, and striving to be free of attachment, anxiety, and doubt in order to become virtuous and free of pain and suffering. The idea that suffering or the inability to achieve some aim is largely a mental thing is often emphasised, such as when Yoda tells Luke the only difference between a rock and his submerged X-Wing is in his mind, or when Obi-Wan warns Anakin that he is "focusing on the negative" after stressing that Padme has forgotten him.
But the Jedi aren't perfect. They have suppressed fears and hang-ups of their own. It really should sound offputting when Mace purrs that Anakin is "too old" to be accepted as a trainee. After all, Yoda initially objects that Luke, at roughly twice Anakin's age, is too old in the Original Trilogy, only to train him anyway. But if you're willing to include "The Last Jedi" in your personal canon (it is offered as a saga installment, after all), you could argue that Yoda had a point -- that Luke had a fatal taint that would bring him down and return suffering to the galaxy for another generation.
The prequels are deliberately showing a muddled morality -- but with wisdom and insight underneath. The basic philosophy of the Jedi makes clear and perfect sense. However, the Jedi apply their philosophy in a rigid manner, and have closed themselves off to the chaos of the Dark Side -- by denying it, it begins to fester and grow. And this is what Anakin's arrival is meant to signify: the destruction of the old and a reformation into something new.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism
Stoicism is a school of Hellenistic philosophy founded by Zeno of Citium in Athens in the early 3rd century BC. Stoicism is a philosophy of personal ethics informed by its system of logic and its views on the natural world. According to its teachings, as social beings, the path to eudaimonia (happiness) for humans is found in accepting the moment as it presents itself, by not allowing oneself to be controlled by the desire for pleasure or fear of pain, by using one's mind to understand the world and to do one's part in nature's plan, and by working together and treating others fairly and justly.
This sounds a heck of a lot like Qui-Gon's injunction to Obi-Wan at the start of Episode I -- and by extension, an epigram for the PT Jedi (and the viewer) in general:
QUI-GON: Don't focus on your anxieties, Obi-Wan. Keep your concentration here and now, where it begins.
OBI-WAN: But Master Yoda said I should be mindful of the future.
QUI-GON: But not at the expense of the moment. Be mindful of the Living Force, my young padawan.
And his reliance on logic, or calm reasoning, is demonstrated later on, when he coolly rebuts the naysaying, hot-headed Captain Panaka:
PANAKA: You can't take our Royal Highness there. The Hutts are gangsters. If they discover her...
QUI-GON: It'll be no different than if we land on a system controlled by the Trade Federation. Except that the Hutts aren't looking for her. Which gives us the advantage.
Equally, attempting to treat other people fairly and justly is a high Jedi ideal -- even if the Jedi sometimes fall short of it in rude reality. Even Qui-Gon is first annoyed by Jar Jar, after all.
Continuing down the Wikipedia description:
The Stoics are especially known for teaching that "virtue is the only good" for human beings, and that external things—such as health, wealth, and pleasure—are not good or bad in themselves (adiaphora), but have value as "material for virtue to act upon".
This could well be describing the Jedi's attitude to Dooku. He may have left the order with a lot of material wealth to draw upon, but they don't see this as a bad thing in and of itself. Similarly, we sometimes see Jedi smiling and having fun, or drawing amusement from a situation, but these aren't ends in and of themselves. They continuously strive to be virtuous -- in the pursuit of a higher good.
Once more, this same outlook is also neatly summed up in a line by Qui-Gon:
QUI-GON: Greed can be a powerful ally.
Back to the Wikipedia description:
Alongside Aristotelian ethics, the Stoic tradition forms one of the major founding approaches to Western virtue ethics. The Stoics also held that certain destructive emotions resulted from errors of judgment, and they believed people should aim to maintain a will (called prohairesis) that is "in accord with nature". Because of this, the Stoics thought the best indication of an individual's philosophy was not what a person said, but how a person behaved. To live a good life, one had to understand the rules of the natural order since they thought everything was rooted in nature.
The Jedi see nature and the Force as one. As Obi-Wan describes the Force to Luke in ANH: "It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us and binds the galaxy together." The Jedi attempt to comport themselves to the will of the Force, because that's essentially what being a Jedi is -- even if, in the timeframe of the PT, they often unwittingly serve the whims of the Republic and its corrupt leaders.
Once again, we also have a resonance with the above description from Qui-Gon, who tells Jar Jar:
QUI-GON: The ability to speak does not make you intelligent.
Not to mention Yoda instructing Luke in the Original Trilogy:
YODA: Do or do not. There is no try.
There are also Qui-Gon's words to Anakin on Coruscant concerning the midi-chlorians:
QUI-GON: They continually speak to us, telling us the will of the Force. When you quiet your mind, you'll hear them speaking to you.
To return to the Wikipedia description once more:
Many Stoics—such as Seneca and Epictetus—emphasized that because "virtue is sufficient for happiness", a sage would be emotionally resilient to misfortune. This belief is similar to the meaning of the phrase "stoic calm", though the phrase does not include the "radical ethical" Stoic views that only a sage can be considered truly free, and that all moral corruptions are equally vicious.
The Jedi place great emphasis on mental discipline, of clearing the mind of negative thoughts, and striving to be free of attachment, anxiety, and doubt in order to become virtuous and free of pain and suffering. The idea that suffering or the inability to achieve some aim is largely a mental thing is often emphasised, such as when Yoda tells Luke the only difference between a rock and his submerged X-Wing is in his mind, or when Obi-Wan warns Anakin that he is "focusing on the negative" after stressing that Padme has forgotten him.
But the Jedi aren't perfect. They have suppressed fears and hang-ups of their own. It really should sound offputting when Mace purrs that Anakin is "too old" to be accepted as a trainee. After all, Yoda initially objects that Luke, at roughly twice Anakin's age, is too old in the Original Trilogy, only to train him anyway. But if you're willing to include "The Last Jedi" in your personal canon (it is offered as a saga installment, after all), you could argue that Yoda had a point -- that Luke had a fatal taint that would bring him down and return suffering to the galaxy for another generation.
The prequels are deliberately showing a muddled morality -- but with wisdom and insight underneath. The basic philosophy of the Jedi makes clear and perfect sense. However, the Jedi apply their philosophy in a rigid manner, and have closed themselves off to the chaos of the Dark Side -- by denying it, it begins to fester and grow. And this is what Anakin's arrival is meant to signify: the destruction of the old and a reformation into something new.
Back to our exchange:
True. But to be expelled is to be cast out and condemned to social death -- not unlike the fate of Jar Jar who is punished by being banished from his society. And given that the Jedi Order is the only life most initiates will have ever known, the Jedi Order seems to have a built-in "anti-escape" protection mechanism. Yes, the Jedi path is meant to be an ennobling one, but I can't help thinking of the Borg assimilating people into the Collective, or Randal McMurphy getting a lobotomy for standing up to Nurse Ratched in "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest".
Why isn't it? Obi-Wan literally tells Luke to act on instinct -- instinct. Just as Qui-Gon tells Anakin before the podrace. But Obi-Wan gave Anakin very different instruction. He was told to think and always to follow rules and to avoid unorthodox methods. Obi-Wan even tells him on the gunship not to let his personal feelings get in the way! Anakin was basically guilted into suppressing his instincts and lectured into always following the Jedi Code. They implied that anything else would lead to ruination. They shuttered his emotions and suppressed his creativity. They encouraged him to fear the consequences of straying from the Jedi path -- and they preached that fear itself would lead to the Dark Side.
Yes, you can look at it that way. But truth is often multi-layered. Many religious orders would argue that their own training techniques and rituals are designed to purify the body/mind/soul: to prepare for the kingdom of heaven and to help adherents see beyond this vale of tears. What all these religions and doctrines have in common is a general hostility or malaise toward the physical world and the muddy realities of corporeal existence. Humanity might be both circuit and current, but that requires acknowledging the poles of aesthete and philistine, angel and ape. Maybe Yoda is a tiny bit too proud of his younglings and his training techniques to see the wider reality. If the mind of a child is so wonderful, and if arrogance is becoming more and more common among Jedi (Yoda explicitly makes both these claims), what of Jedi doctrine as a whole? Is it really fit for purpose and able to see through the dark anymore? I suppose it's a loaded question. The film basically says (based on the outcome of the plot): "No, it isn't."
As for Obi-Wan telling Anakin to think, well, is he wrong? Yes, the Jedi often instruct their students to feel and not think, but surely that can't mean that it is not good to ever think? It depends on what the student needs to hear at a particular stage in their training in order to advance from their current understanding. It's the difference between A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back. In A New Hope, Luke needs to learn to stop overthinking things and instead trust his feelings. In Empire, Luke has become a little too reliant on his feelings, and he needs to be reminded by Ben and Yoda to think through what he's doing before rushing off to face Vader out of an instinctive desire to rescue his friends. "To everything there is a season," and all that. Thesis and antithesis.
Of course Clones is the Empire of the prequel trilogy, so it's natural that the still-remaining need to think would be emphasized in this installment as well. It's a film where everyone would be better served by not losing their head (in Threepio's case, literally!). Obi-Wan's words to Anakin in particular strike me as a well-needed counterweight to what Palpatine tells Anakin a bit later on: "You don't need guidance, Anakin. In time, you will learn to trust your feelings, and then you will be invincible." So you see, it's thesis and antithesis again. Palpatine is saying something much like what the Jedi say, but it's taken on a sinister cast. It's the dark side of trusting your feelings and acting on instinct, the dare I say fascist side. And we see exactly what this dark side leads to, when Anakin gives in to his instinct for revenge and unleashes his feelings of hatred on the Tuskens, becoming an invincible force of destruction.
Of course Clones is the Empire of the prequel trilogy, so it's natural that the still-remaining need to think would be emphasized in this installment as well. It's a film where everyone would be better served by not losing their head (in Threepio's case, literally!). Obi-Wan's words to Anakin in particular strike me as a well-needed counterweight to what Palpatine tells Anakin a bit later on: "You don't need guidance, Anakin. In time, you will learn to trust your feelings, and then you will be invincible." So you see, it's thesis and antithesis again. Palpatine is saying something much like what the Jedi say, but it's taken on a sinister cast. It's the dark side of trusting your feelings and acting on instinct, the dare I say fascist side. And we see exactly what this dark side leads to, when Anakin gives in to his instinct for revenge and unleashes his feelings of hatred on the Tuskens, becoming an invincible force of destruction.
You can say that here!
I'll get to the rest in a moment.
If the first act in the trilogies is the child stage, then the second act is the adolescent stage. That's where things start to get complicated. The straightforward advice that served you well when advancing from the insecurity of childhood doesn't necessarily work as well now that you're a swaggering teenager. "Just believe in yourself" won't get you past the goal line now, because now you actually might be getting a little bit too big for your britches. Now maybe it's not the world that needs to conform to your ambitions, but your ambitions that need to conform a bit to the world. It's only by internalizing and integrating thesis and antithesis that you can then arrive at synthesis, the third act, where you may become master of both modes of thought. I believe Lucas hints at this a bit in this interview:
That's what I think both Clones and Empire are basically about, and it's why I don't think Obi-Wan is wrong to tell Anakin that he needs to think, nor is he contradicting Jedi teachings. He's just trying to raise a teenager.
Because Luke works intuitively through most of the original trilogy until he gets to the very end. And it's only in the last act--when he throws his sword down and says, "I'm not going to fight this"--that he makes a more conscious, rational decision.
That's what I think both Clones and Empire are basically about, and it's why I don't think Obi-Wan is wrong to tell Anakin that he needs to think, nor is he contradicting Jedi teachings. He's just trying to raise a teenager.
You give an articulate and learned reading -- most enjoyable.
I don't entirely disagree with you, but my take on it is:
Feelings and intuition are often prioritised by the Jedi over thinking and rationality. So Obi-Wan scolding Anakin and telling him to "think" really stands out. AOTC is also notable for having something of a "fragmented mentorship" motif about it. It is unique among the Lucas Six in this regard. In the other episodes, some kind of "wise" mentor can be seen guiding the protagonist to success or failure (the latter applying to the Palpatine-Anakin relationship in ROTS), but AOTC is more ambiguous and ephemeral as we watch Anakin pulled in different directions (and displaying very different mindsets) by Palpatine and Obi-Wan, and also with his love interest, Padme. And while Anakin has more scenes with Obi-Wan and Padme, by far, than he does with Palpatine (indeed: Anakin and Palpatine only have one relatively short scene together in AOTC), you can already detect Palpatine's influence on his thinking. This is one of the clever and weird things about the movie. Anakin, like civilisation itself, is a work-in-progress; he isn't a finished article. The same could be applied to the points of view his different mentors supply him with. There's a mosaic effect. Is it wise to listen to your feelings? Sometimes. Shouldn't one apply the brakes and always attempt to do some thinking? Yes. Is thinking superior to feeling or vice versa? That depends. AOTC implies that these are contiguous things and there's no one path that is entirely correct in life. Perhaps I merely reveal my own biases, but I think it's the most rawly honest (and intellectually troubling) film of the complete Star Wars saga.
I also think the Lucas quote is a bit crooked; or perhaps crookedly applied (though I mean to imply no conscious malice or ill-intent on your part). The thing about it is that he's really talking about the last film in his personal saga. We're not meant to be at that point yet in the PT -- even though the PT was made after the OT and is more thematically complex. So while Luke makes a "more conscious, rational decision", in the words of Lucas, it is only after we've sat through six movies that have depicted the Jedi's downfall and gradual return to the light. Heck, his name even essentially means "light" or "light giving". Lucas is indirectly bashing the Jedi for needing someone with Luke's idealised blend of intuitive and rational thinking to restore their good name and presence in the galaxy. You can also read something a touch egotistical in the name: "Luke S." is clearly a cypher for "Lucas", and that same character is basically the "star" of the Original Trilogy and the more balanced/rounded Jedi that fixes the flaw in Jedi vision that brought a thousand years of peace to an end.
In the words of Obi-Wan: "What happens to one of you will affect the other." So Anakin doesn't perceive things the way he does, or act the way he does, in a total vacuum. The Jedi, as I said before, are his guardians and protectors. Darth Vader was as much a product of their teachings as he was Palpatine. I guess this remains controversial to many prequel fans who tend to see the Jedi as an unstinting force for good. Nevertheless, it's part and parcel of the six-movie storyline (although, of course, one can debate this point as with virtually any other). Luke gets a to a place that Anakin should have arrived at, and in my opinion, the Jedi are implicated in Anakin's inability to be as selfless or as rational as Luke. Though it certainly helps that Luke perceives the commonality between himself and his father when he studies his hand. Just that simple realisation is enough to snap Luke out of his rage and change the fates of billions. In the words of Ian Malcolm: "Life (or the universe) finds a way."
Observe that Obi-Wan not only tells Anakin to think, but berates him for being careless with his lightsaber in the same moment (even though Obi-Wan loses his several times): "This weapon is your life!" Yet Luke consciously tosses aside his lightsaber -- the saber is suddenly (if only transiently) part of the problem, instead of the solution. Indeed, its discarding is part of the solution. This, too, is far more radical than anything the Jedi appear to teach Anakin. From that early scene in TPM where Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan hastily draw their swords, only to realise their swords are useless and they're being gassed, to Yoda training the younglings with mini sabers, to Anakin bragging to Padme about him and (presumably) Obi-Wan resolving a sticky situation with "aggressive negotiations" (as he clarifies: "negotiations... with a lightsaber"), Lucas establishes a theme of the Jedi being overly reliant on their lightsaber: on the sword to solve problems. Anakin's gaze is even captured by a brief peek of Qui-Gon's saber hooked to his belt when he buys the fruit from Jira, and it obviously makes a big impression as he later brings it up at the dinner conversation. Ironically, Anakin's reckless ways with a lightsaber will later lead to his own disfigurement and spiritual banishment from his old life -- and only Luke tossing his saber aside puts the situation right and ends Anakin's on-going torment as a formidable, yet anguished and broken, servant of the Sith and the Galactic Empire.
So, yes -- Luke makes a better choice. He sees through the madness in a way that thousands of Jedi were unable to. He chooses peace, love, faith, and compassion over fear, arrogance, apathy, and condemnation. He restores the flame of the Jedi in the universe, such that it may one day go on to burn brightly once more.
All this being said, I do see and understand your point of view. This is, refreshingly, a worthwhile and substantive debate.
Thank you. I also see you and understand your point of view. This has, indeed, been one of the more worthwhile and interesting conversations of late. Perhaps we should have a "Christmas Debate" every year!
