|
|
Post by Alexrd on Dec 18, 2020 9:44:35 GMT
Those articles will keep coming the more clicks and shares people give them. It's bait. Going by what Cryo copied here (I'm obviously not going to give them clicks), it's obvious that the author hasn't watched the movies, and going by the title alone, she can't even tell them apart from the EU. |
|
|
|
Post by Subtext Mining on Dec 18, 2020 10:12:48 GMT
I'm not sure where it's stated, possibly the RotJ novel or some fan magazine, but I grew up with the (non-canon?) knowledge that the events occurring on and around Endor were prophesied in Ewok folklore. Particularly along the lines of a 'a golden god would arrive when the white demons come to build a castle in the sky' sort of thing.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cryogenic on Dec 18, 2020 14:26:19 GMT
No -- the droid that accompanies Obi-Wan to Kamino and then to Geonosis is R4-P17. Granted, this means that Obi-Wan basically owned a droid before, but maybe he doesn't see it that way. Given the Jedi's emphasis on no attachments and possessions being forbidden, Obi-Wan is maybe being a bit coy or has a bit of a blindspot. The look he shoots Artoo when Artoo plays the message in his hovel is very telling. At that moment, Obi-Wan seems to know what is at stake. Maybe it all comes flooding back to him in a flash of lightning. Jedi seem to have their own ways of forgetting and remembering. The explanation that was always given by Lucasfilm was that Arfour does not belong to Obi-Wan--she belongs to the Jedi Order, and Obi-Wan merely uses her for missions. This makes sense to me. Presumably, the Jedi Order has a large droid pool for their members to avail themselves of. Individual Jedi would have no reason to personally own a droid. Whether or not Anakin technically owned Artoo or not is an interesting question. I would suspect that he technically did not, and that he remained under the official ownership of Padme. I like this reading. Though it's still a bit sneaky/underhand on Obi-Wan's part. If he knows full well the Jedi weren't meant to have (or become attached to) possessions, then there's a bit of misdirection on his part when he protests to Luke that he doesn't remember owning a droid. A bit like the way Qui-Gon never fully corrects Anakin on the spot when he says: "You mean I get to come with you on your starship?" Shiny starships. Heh. Cute astromech droids. Heh. A Jedi craves not these things. Those articles will keep coming the more clicks and shares people give them. It's bait. Going by what Cryo copied here (I'm obviously not going to give them clicks), it's obvious that the author hasn't watched the movies, and going by the title alone, she can't even tell them apart from the EU. I was going to dock them for that ("Expanded Universe"), but their terminology is sloppy more than out-and-out wrong. They should have opted for a better, less confusing term, especially for the title, though. Poor choice of words. But I see your point. It's more lazy clickbait tactics to draw attention. I'm not sure where it's stated, possibly the RotJ novel or some fan magazine, but I grew up with the (non-canon?) knowledge that the events occurring on and around Endor were prophesied in Ewok folklore. Particularly along the lines of a 'a golden god would arrive when the white demons come to build a castle in the sky' sort of thing. You probably read it in the novel. Sounds sassy, right, because how would I know? Well, I was slightly going off an old post of yours on TFN. You shared an extract from the novel which mentions a prophecy centered on Threepio: |
|
|
|
Post by jppiper on Dec 18, 2020 19:18:38 GMT
Cryogenicwhat did you think of Forces of Destiny?
|
|
|
|
Post by Cryogenic on Dec 18, 2020 23:41:22 GMT
Cryogenic what did you think of Forces of Destiny? The one you posted or the series itself? I think they're fun, and at the same time, relatively harmless. There isn't much to them. Breezy and light as a feather. However, they are targeted at a young audience, and the underlying intent of them seems to be to express a positive message about female agency and friendship. On that basis, they're fine. |
|
|
|
Post by thephantomcalamari on Dec 19, 2020 3:33:43 GMT
screenrant.com/star-wars-qui-gon-jin-free-slaves-tatooine/An entire article speculating about why Qui-Gon didn't free all the slaves on Tatooine, but not once is it considered that maybe the reason Qui-Gon didn't singlehandedly liberate an entire planet is the same reason you or I haven't done it yet.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cryogenic on Dec 19, 2020 3:54:22 GMT
screenrant.com/star-wars-qui-gon-jin-free-slaves-tatooine/An entire article speculating about why Qui-Gon didn't free all the slaves on Tatooine, but not once is it considered that maybe the reason Qui-Gon didn't singlehandedly liberate an entire planet is the same reason you or I haven't done it yet. Right. Qui-Gon is just one man and even the entire might of the Jedi Order can't fix every wrong in the galaxy. And, in a way, given that the Jedi are slaves themselves, they may not be willing or able to recognise the scourge of slavery for what it is. The whole Jedi Order has a beam in its eye. But, of course, they also serve the Galactic Republic, and as the author notes, Tatooine is in the Outer Rim, beyond the concern of the Republic. Even Republic currency is useless that far out, and Watto is too smart/too defiant/too Toydarian to be conned into accepting it. This paragraph of theirs is surprisingly objective and notes basic pragmatic realities (before the more esoteric concerns driving the plot of the entire saga that their other paragraphs get into): |
|
|
|
Post by thephantomcalamari on Dec 19, 2020 10:04:19 GMT
screenrant.com/star-wars-qui-gon-jin-free-slaves-tatooine/An entire article speculating about why Qui-Gon didn't free all the slaves on Tatooine, but not once is it considered that maybe the reason Qui-Gon didn't singlehandedly liberate an entire planet is the same reason you or I haven't done it yet. Right. Qui-Gon is just one man and even the entire might of the Jedi Order can't fix every wrong in the galaxy. And, in a way, given that the Jedi are slaves themselves, they may not be willing or able to recognise the scourge of slavery for what it is. The whole Jedi Order has a beam in its eye. But, of course, they also serve the Galactic Republic, and as the author notes, Tatooine is in the Outer Rim, beyond the concern of the Republic. Even Republic currency is useless that far out, and Watto is too smart/too defiant/too Toydarian to be conned into accepting it. This paragraph of theirs is surprisingly objective and notes basic pragmatic realities (before the more esoteric concerns driving the plot of the entire saga that their other paragraphs get into): Hm, not sure I agree the Jedi are slaves. They take vows, but no one's physically stopping any of them from leaving. |
|
|
|
Post by Cryogenic on Dec 19, 2020 15:04:37 GMT
Hm, not sure I agree the Jedi are slaves. They take vows, but no one's physically stopping any of them from leaving. PT Jedi are basically indoctrinated into the Jedi Order from birth. "Give me the child until he is seven and I will give you the man." Heck, they consider Anakin too old (at least, in Obi-Wan's paraphrase) at nine. Individuals may not be prevented from leaving the Jedi Order, but it's clearly not encouraged or looked upon as a good thing. |
|
|
|
Post by Subtext Mining on Dec 19, 2020 17:57:02 GMT
oh, haha! Man, it's been a long, crazy four years.
|
|
|
|
Post by Alexrd on Dec 19, 2020 22:10:32 GMT
Hm, not sure I agree the Jedi are slaves. They take vows, but no one's physically stopping any of them from leaving. PT Jedi are basically indoctrinated into the Jedi Order from birth. "Give me the child until he is seven and I will give you the man." Heck, they consider Anakin too old (at least, in Obi-Wan's paraphrase) at nine. Individuals may not be prevented from leaving the Jedi Order, but it's clearly not encouraged or looked upon as a good thing. That's still not slavery. |
|
|
|
Post by thephantomcalamari on Dec 19, 2020 22:33:26 GMT
Hm, not sure I agree the Jedi are slaves. They take vows, but no one's physically stopping any of them from leaving. PT Jedi are basically indoctrinated into the Jedi Order from birth. "Give me the child until he is seven and I will give you the man." Heck, they consider Anakin too old (at least, in Obi-Wan's paraphrase) at nine. Individuals may not be prevented from leaving the Jedi Order, but it's clearly not encouraged or looked upon as a good thing. Well, they're raised as Jedi and taught to believe the things Jedi believe in. I don't necessarily think that means they're indoctrinated, unless you think we're all indoctrinated by our parents. Yes, they're encouraged to stick to their vows, but if the Jedi were so coercive about it, I think we would have seen a lot more problems. Instead, we're told that there have been a thousand years of peace under the Jedi, and only twenty Jedi total have ever voluntarily left the Order. It seems to me that so few people abandon the Jedi lifestyle simply because, despite its difficulty, it's extremely rewarding and fulfilling. The only reason Anakin feels constricted by the Jedi way of life is because, yes, he was so old when he was taken in, and his mind had already been shaped and conditioned by the world of attachments. For most Jedi, this is not a problem, because they've been raised almost from birth to be comfortable with the Jedi way of life. And this way of life is necessary for the Jedi to perform the important job that they do for the galaxy, without seriously messing things up. We have to keep in mind that this is a fantasy universe where certain people are born with amazing abilities which, if carefully cultivated, can make them either a great force for good or a terrible force for evil. Within this context, they must be raised from a very young age so that each and every one of them can essentially become as wise and as disciplined as the Dalai Lama. |
|
|
|
Post by Cryogenic on Dec 19, 2020 23:08:58 GMT
PT Jedi are basically indoctrinated into the Jedi Order from birth. "Give me the child until he is seven and I will give you the man." Heck, they consider Anakin too old (at least, in Obi-Wan's paraphrase) at nine. Individuals may not be prevented from leaving the Jedi Order, but it's clearly not encouraged or looked upon as a good thing. That's still not slavery. Depends on your definition: "From a certain point of view"... it's slavery. Note that Anakin goes from having Watto as his master, to Obi-Wan, to Palpatine. He's only freed by Luke in ROTJ. PT Jedi are basically indoctrinated into the Jedi Order from birth. "Give me the child until he is seven and I will give you the man." Heck, they consider Anakin too old (at least, in Obi-Wan's paraphrase) at nine. Individuals may not be prevented from leaving the Jedi Order, but it's clearly not encouraged or looked upon as a good thing. Well, they're raised as Jedi and taught to believe the things Jedi believe in. I don't necessarily think that means they're indoctrinated, unless you think we're all indoctrinated by our parents. I do think that, yes -- by parents, teachers, the media (including films), the workplace, religion... you name it. Indoctrination is everywhere. Or maybe they lack enough independent thought to see what it is they're enmeshed in. Machines making machines. How perverse.
I mean, it's the whole theme of the movie, really. But people ignore it. The elusive obvious. "Most". Yet we know some left, and according to deleted material, the Jedi have a problem talking about it. Also, Obi-Wan does emotionally blackmail Anakin into remaining two times by implying uncomfortable consequences -- should he leave or be kicked out -- in AOTC: "You have made a commitment to the Jedi Order. A commitment not easily broken." "You will be expelled from the Jedi Order!!!" The latter threat, in light of the former, is Obi-Wan clearly trying to guilt-trip Anakin into believing expulsion -- or just leaving the Jedi Order generally -- would be a bad and shameful thing. Even Padme seems spooked at the prospect he could be kicked out. Perhaps it's no wonder he never officially leaves. Instead, he rationalises that the Jedi turned against him. The Dalai Lama is the product of slavery and the dynastic impulse, including blinkered ideas on class and wealth inheritance. Is he himself a good man? He seems to be (Anakin: "I think he's a good man."). But we can probably achieve a more just universe if we're able to move beyond -- to let go (ironically) -- of conventional religion and other mind manacles in the future. Buddhism is an impressive system, but there's no one true Buddhism; and then you have a fascinating website like the following: speculativenonbuddhism.com/Anyway, yes, it's a fantasy universe, but it's hardly bereft of self-critique or self-awareness. There are, for example, many odd resonances. Note that the First Order echoes the name of the Jedi Order and essentially replaces that institution, especially where the indoctrination/recruitment of children is concerned. Sounds like they took some notes. The irony of Padme expressing surprise that Anakin is a slave is quite brilliant. It basically applies to all the characters, including her. To be truly free of imperial entanglements -- that's the real trick, isn't it? |
|
|
|
Post by thephantomcalamari on Dec 19, 2020 23:48:10 GMT
Note that Anakin goes from having Watto as his master, to Obi-Wan, to Palpatine. He's only freed by Luke in ROTJ. I think Anakin only feels like Obi-Wan is "holding him back" like Watto once did. The irony is that Obi-Wan is actually just trying to help him by setting limits on his reckless behavior, while the superficially permissive Palpatine is trying to exploit that recklessness to entrap him. I don't get that from the movie. I think the Jedi are portrayed in a generally positive light, and the point is that they become corrupted by being turned into cogs in a war machine. But that corruption has nothing to do with the practice of raising Jedi from infancy. I mean, here's Lucas talking about this issue (taken from Alexrd 's Tumblr): I see no hint of condemnation or criticism there, only explanation. And recall this scene:  The one glimpse we get of Jedi child-rearing shows that they have a very warm and caring relationship with their parental figure, Yoda. And the whole point of this scene is that children often see things adults do not, because their lack of preconceptions gives them the ability to think outside the box, a quality which Yoda praises and seeks to cultivate. I don't think this is consistent with the idea that the Jedi Order is some kind of brainwashing operation. |
|
|
|
Post by Cryogenic on Dec 20, 2020 0:28:42 GMT
Note that Anakin goes from having Watto as his master, to Obi-Wan, to Palpatine. He's only freed by Luke in ROTJ. I think Anakin only feels like Obi-Wan is "holding him back" like Watto once did. The irony is that Obi-Wan is actually just trying to help him by setting limits on his reckless behavior, while the superficially permissive Palpatine is trying to exploit that recklessness to entrap him. Well, feelings still matter. And when did Watto ever hold Anakin back? He was a slave and he couldn't just up and leave (the transmitter), but there is no particular on-screen evidence that Watto was ever cruel, oppressive, or demeaning toward him. Obi-Wan clearly wants Anakin to follow his ideals and those of the Jedi Order, instead of developing his own or encouraging the flourishing of an independent moral conscience -- leaving him wide open to Palpatine's overtures. And they are obviously rivals. The idea that Obi-Wan is jealous, or at least a touch envious, of Anakin's abilities isn't BS. Obi-Wan frequently chides Anakin and often holds him on a tight leash. Anyone with any real talent or ability would naturally chafe under those conditions. Episode I half exists to stress the point that Qui-Gon -- being more flexible in his interpretation of rules and procedures and being markedly older than Anakin and Obi-Wan -- would have been a better teacher for him. Nothing to do with that? How else do they manage to allow themselves to become cogs, then? Their system is flawed. They operate from an ivory tower and show arrogance and haughtiness aplenty. Just look at the way they speak to Padme when she raises the suggestion that Dooku is behind her assassination attempt. They inherently hold themselves as having superior moral virtue. "I have the high ground." LOL. Lucas is like anyone -- he finds it difficult to criticise his own ideals. But the movies do offer critique. No-one can possibly be free of fear. All creatures feel fear. The Jedi have simply gone to an extreme to try and wipe it out. Also, there's a big middle ground between mindlessly accepting something and striving to avoid the reality at any cost. Perhaps Anakin could have accepted the loss of his mother, for example, if he hadn't been told to forget about her and didn't discover her on the brink of death, apparently the victim of rape and torture. We're meant to create more clement conditions in this world. If a person is submerged in a world of inclemency, that should be recognised and steps taken to alleviate their suffering -- rather than heartlessly preaching and prattling on like robots as the Jedi do. Yeah, I recall it. I see a different reality: young inductees who are basically dressed the same, all doing and being told the same thing, with their faces covered, their individuality suppressed. They are comically differentiated only by slight colour variances and the binary delineation of glowing sticks. Not unlike the clones on Kamino who collect their helmets and only stand out from one another with the occasional colour marking. Like consumers at an Apple shop. This is your life. Enjoy swatting at angry little death stars while encased in darkness. As for thinking outside the box (or the head bucket): What happens to that by the time they're adults? "I think Count Dooku is behind it." "He's a political idealist, not a murderer." "Impossible. Perhaps the archives are incomplete." "If an item does not appear in our records, it does not exist." |
|
|
|
Post by Alexrd on Dec 20, 2020 21:57:44 GMT
Note that Anakin goes from having Watto as his master, to Obi-Wan, to Palpatine. He's only freed by Luke in ROTJ. He's freed by Luke from his own prison. Even if he considered himself a slave of Palpatine, Anakin always had the key of his own prison cell, and that's what Luke was trying to tell him. Anakin was a slave of Watto, an apprentice to Obi-Wan and a servant of Palpatine. To equate voluntary apprenticeship or service as slavery is simply ridiculous. Anakin was freed in TPM. Once free, he chose to become a Jedi. He chose to learn from them. He chose to stay with them. He chose to betray them. He chose to serve Sidious. The assumption that the Jedi Order is a factory of mindless drones or that they supress any sense of individuality or free thought is simply not corroborated by the movies. The opposite is true. The Jedi retain their individuality. They are trained to master themselves, to be truly free. To be selfless. To not be a "slave" (pun intended) to one's blind and volatile desires, urges and emotions. EDIT: Regarding Qui-Gon and the whole idea that he's some sort of free-spirit that's not stern and doesn't care about the rules, the first thing that he warns Anakin about is that Jedi training is challenging and that being a Jedi is a hard life. The implication that he would allow Anakin to feed his fears and desires is not only the opposite of what being a Jedi is, but is also not supported by what the character says and does. |
|
|
|
Post by Cryogenic on Dec 21, 2020 9:54:12 GMT
Note that Anakin goes from having Watto as his master, to Obi-Wan, to Palpatine. He's only freed by Luke in ROTJ. He's freed by Luke from his own prison. Even if he considered himself a slave of Palpatine, Anakin always had the key of his own prison cell, and that's what Luke was trying to tell him. Although Anakin using that "key" results in his own death, and it seems to be something Luke believed in spite of what Obi-Wan and Yoda thought and tried telling him. Anakin was enslaved to the Dark Side until he accepted that killing the Emperor meant losing his own life (but regaining his soul) in the process. If that's the way you see it... I've always felt that Qui-Gon's line to Anakin when he tells him he's free -- "You're no longer a slave!" -- is meant to be ironic. Anakin doesn't free himself from his own fears and impulses, or the worldly means of trying to master them (or evade them), until his death in ROTJ. And it isn't ridiculous to equate apprenticeship or service as slavery. That may not be your personal definition of slavery, but it isn't incongruous with the dictionary definitions provided. Children are deliberately targeted with ideology that often serves the interests of the powerful -- because human beings know that the minds of their young are highly malleable. That's why advertising to children is banned in some countries on television; and why tobacco companies, for example, have largely turned their efforts to third-world countries, where it is easier to get children addicted to their products. That you think a child can rightly choose an entirely new life for themselves, with sufficient circumspection, before they've even gone through puberty, much less seen anything of the world, and on the basis of a chance encounter one day with a bunch of strangers, and then be held accountable for that for the rest of their life, is interesting. There's a reason, perhaps, that people are so animated about pedophilia and child abuse these days, and why minors are generally exempt from punishment (at least to the same degree as adults) under most aspects of Western law. It's not an assumption. It's what the on-screen evidence shows. The Jedi sacrifice much of their individuality for the greater good. They are like a "higher" form of clone trooper: a whirling dervish semi-liberated form of clone. But still a clone. Lucas uses the "cloned" factory sequences in AOTC (on Kamino and Geonosis) to metaphorically stress the power of ideology and to abstractly illustrate how one is essentially manufactured by the society that one is grown and/or assembled within. I never said that Qui-Gon is a free spirit. I simply suggested he would have been a better mentor for Anakin, given the circumstances of how they met and Anakin's relatively late induction into the Jedi Order. Qui-Gon, for example, encourages Anakin to trust in his own impulses: "Remember: Concentrate on the moment. Feel, don't think. Use your instincts." This is the polar opposite of Obi-Wan cautioning Anakin in the next film: "Use the Force: Think!" What do you think the point in having Qui-Gon in this saga even was? Also -- my question remains unanswered: As for thinking outside the box (or the head bucket): What happens to that by the time they're adults? "I think Count Dooku is behind it." "He's a political idealist, not a murderer." "Impossible. Perhaps the archives are incomplete." "If an item does not appear in our records, it does not exist." |
|
|
|
Post by thephantomcalamari on Dec 21, 2020 11:16:57 GMT
Yeah, I recall it. I see a different reality: young inductees who are basically dressed the same, all doing and being told the same thing, with their faces covered, their individuality suppressed. They are comically differentiated only by slight colour variances and the binary delineation of glowing sticks. Not unlike the clones on Kamino who collect their helmets and only stand out from one another with the occasional colour marking. Like consumers at an Apple shop. This is your life. Enjoy swatting at angry little death stars while encased in darkness. As for thinking outside the box (or the head bucket): What happens to that by the time they're adults? "I think Count Dooku is behind it." "He's a political idealist, not a murderer." "Impossible. Perhaps the archives are incomplete." "If an item does not appear in our records, it does not exist." The Jedi have been around for a long time protecting the Republic. They've gotten very experienced, they're very good at it, and they almost always succeed. This is a situation that lends itself to arrogance, to recklessness, and to short-sightedness. I have no arguments there. Of course Yoda says it himself. But this is the explanation for the Jedi's inability to decipher the plot that's unraveling right in front of their eyes. It's an almost inevitable process for an organization that's been around as long as the Jedi have, and it's something that would be have to guarded against no matter what that organization was or how it otherwise conducted itself. It's an institutional weakness that tends to affect everyone within that institution, no matter how freethinking in principle. I have a hard time seeing how we can draw a causal link between the Order's child-rearing practices and its latter-day decline, given that (again) it had presided over a thousand-year period of peace in which only twenty Jedi total had ever left the Order. If the way it adopted and educated its children was such a major reason for its decline, you'd think you would have seen some evidence of this before a literal entire millennium had passed. To the contrary, the evidence suggests that the Jedi were extremely successful over that time period. And one of the few pieces of evidence we have for what happens when a child is accepted late into the Order is the example of Anakin Skywalker, who succumbed to his attachments just as was feared, and helped usher the galaxy into a period of darkness. I can't see how accepting more children like Anakin into the Order would have served as a remedy to its institutional shortsightedness. It's not as if Anakin had a clearer view of what was going on than anyone else; in fact, he was far more confused and far more susceptible to manipulation and corruption. And as regards the detail of their faces being covered, need I remind you of what such face-covering actually signifies in this Jedi context?  "Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them!" "Let go your conscious self, and act on instinct!" It's not really a representation of ignorance, is it? In fact, in the Episode II scene, it's Obi-Wan who is fooled by what his eyes communicate to him: no planet. It's the Jedi child who suggests that Obi-Wan's eyes might be deceiving him--to which Yoda responds approvingly, perhaps satisfied with the knowledge that the day's lesson has been learned. |
|
|
|
Post by Cryogenic on Dec 21, 2020 14:09:15 GMT
The Jedi have been around for a long time protecting the Republic. They've gotten very experienced, they're very good at it, and they almost always succeed. This is a situation that lends itself to arrogance, to recklessness, and to short-sightedness. I have no arguments there. Of course Yoda says it himself. But this is the explanation for the Jedi's inability to decipher the plot that's unraveling right in front of their eyes. It's an almost inevitable process for an organization that's been around as long as the Jedi have, and it's something that would be have to guarded against no matter what that organization was or how it otherwise conducted itself. It's an institutional weakness that tends to affect everyone within that institution, no matter how freethinking in principle. But are the Jedi even that freethinking in principle? You have to wonder just how these issues come about. Arrogance for a bunch of superpowered monks tasked with protecting a vast republic isn't a good sign. It speaks to systemic failures and blindness within that institution. An institution that thinks it knows everything -- but clearly, it does not. An institution no longer practicing humility and out of its depth. Woop. Hang on here. The discussion parameters have shifted imperceptibly. Whether the Jedi's methods are successful or not is a different matter (though the two are invariably linked, in my mind) to the ethics of the Jedi Order rearing its adherents from birth. I also don't take the number of individuals leaving the Jedi Order as the yardstick for success. As I explained earlier, we see Obi-Wan implicitly threatening Anakin with the consequences of breaking his mandate (or being expelled), so the Jedi likely have ways of discouraging their members from choosing to leave. One can only imagine the enormous psychological pressures bearing down on a member when it's the only life they've ever known. Would most of them even see leaving as an option? It's like a slave-catcher boasting that none of his slaves has ever tried escaping. "Your focus determines your reality." If you fear a situation deeply enough, you might end up bringing it about. Lucas has intimated that this is the basic philosophy underpinning the Dagobah cave sequence, for example. So the Jedi can be charged with playing a direct role in the downfall of one of their own: a late inductee whom they initially were reluctant to let in precisely because they feared the consequences! Emphasis on "they". They feared the consequences, they made him feel ashamed and out of place. Do you think that wasn't going to have a profound effect? Yep -- thanks to the Jedi. As you recognise: Anakin was let into the Order while still a child. A child! At that moment, the Jedi Order became his school, his family, his community, his legal guardians, all rolled into one. How is it such an inquisitive and fast-thinking child became so confused and susceptible to corruption under their keep? What did they actually do to stop this confusion and susceptibility from taking hold? He was their Golden Goose and they just let this happen. Why isn't it? Obi-Wan literally tells Luke to act on instinct -- instinct. Just as Qui-Gon tells Anakin before the podrace. But Obi-Wan gave Anakin very different instruction. He was told to think and always to follow rules and to avoid unorthodox methods. Obi-Wan even tells him on the gunship not to let his personal feelings get in the way! Anakin was basically guilted into suppressing his instincts and lectured into always following the Jedi Code. They implied that anything else would lead to ruination. They shuttered his emotions and suppressed his creativity. They encouraged him to fear the consequences of straying from the Jedi path -- and they preached that fear itself would lead to the Dark Side. But again: What happens between the "youngling" and "Jedi Knight" stage? Why can a child see what Obi-Wan (and Jocasta: the librarian) cannot? Is Yoda putting more effort in with this new crop of younglings? What sets them apart from all the previous younglings who grew into Knights and Masters? Something is seriously amiss with an institution that prides itself on seeking knowledge and harmony, but is clearly ignorant of its own ignorance and in a state of disharmony with the universe. Even after the youngling discloses the answer, Obi-Wan's face is uncomprehending, and he protests to Yoda that emptying the Jedi Archives of content is meant to be impossible. This is definitely not a good look for a supposedly wise order meant to be capable of maintaining peace and justice in a vast and rapidly-changing galaxy. |
|
|
|
Post by thephantomcalamari on Dec 21, 2020 15:39:01 GMT
Woop. Hang on here. The discussion parameters have shifted imperceptibly. Whether the Jedi's methods are successful or not is a different matter (though the two are invariably linked, in my mind) to the ethics of the Jedi Order rearing its adherents from birth. I also don't take the number of individuals leaving the Jedi Order as the yardstick for success. As I explained earlier, we see Obi-Wan implicitly threatening Anakin with the consequences of breaking his mandate (or being expelled), so the Jedi likely have ways of discouraging their members from choosing to leave. One can only imagine the enormous psychological pressures bearing down on a member when it's the only life they've ever known. Would most of them even see leaving as an option? It's like a slave-catcher boasting that none of his slaves has ever tried escaping. If the discussion isn't about whether or not the Jedi methods are successful, then it must be about whether children who are raised in the Jedi Order are generally psychological healthy, happy, and intellectually well-rounded. I am aware of no evidence that they are not, and in the absence of any other evidence, I see no reason to assume they are not. One notable difference between the Jedi initiate and the slave is that the Jedi initiate is, in the one pertinent example we have seen, being reminded of an obligation, while the slave is being threatened with death. I see that as a very significant difference. Well, the main point I was making is that the image of the Jedi student with a helmet covering his eyes is not something which signifies that they are being taught to be ignorant and short-sighted. It represents the idea that truth cannot always be ascertained by the eyes, but must sometimes be ascertained by instinct. Therefore, I don't think this aspect of the Youngling scene supports the notion that they are being taught to see and think in a closed-minded way. As for Obi-Wan telling Anakin to think, well, is he wrong? Yes, the Jedi often instruct their students to feel and not think, but surely that can't mean that it is not good to ever think? It depends on what the student needs to hear at a particular stage in their training in order to advance from their current understanding. It's the difference between A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back. In A New Hope, Luke needs to learn to stop overthinking things and instead trust his feelings. In Empire, Luke has become a little too reliant on his feelings, and he needs to be reminded by Ben and Yoda to think through what he's doing before rushing off to face Vader out of an instinctive desire to rescue his friends. "To everything there is a season," and all that. Thesis and antithesis. Of course Clones is the Empire of the prequel trilogy, so it's natural that the still-remaining need to think would be emphasized in this installment as well. It's a film where everyone would be better served by not losing their head (in Threepio's case, literally!). Obi-Wan's words to Anakin in particular strike me as a well-needed counterweight to what Palpatine tells Anakin a bit later on: "You don't need guidance, Anakin. In time, you will learn to trust your feelings, and then you will be invincible." So you see, it's thesis and antithesis again. Palpatine is saying something much like what the Jedi say, but it's taken on a sinister cast. It's the dark side of trusting your feelings and acting on instinct, the dare I say fascist side. And we see exactly what this dark side leads to, when Anakin gives in to his instinct for revenge and unleashes his feelings of hatred on the Tuskens, becoming an invincible force of destruction. If the first act in the trilogies is the child stage, then the second act is the adolescent stage. That's where things start to get complicated. The straightforward advice that served you well when advancing from the insecurity of childhood doesn't necessarily work as well now that you're a swaggering teenager. "Just believe in yourself" won't get you past the goal line now, because now you actually might be getting a little bit too big for your britches. Now maybe it's not the world that needs to conform to your ambitions, but your ambitions that need to conform a bit to the world. It's only by internalizing and integrating thesis and antithesis that you can then arrive at synthesis, the third act, where you may become master of both modes of thought. I believe Lucas hints at this a bit in this interview: That's what I think both Clones and Empire are basically about, and it's why I don't think Obi-Wan is wrong to tell Anakin that he needs to think, nor is he contradicting Jedi teachings. He's just trying to raise a teenager. All this being said, I do see and understand your point of view. This is, refreshingly, a worthwhile and substantive debate. |
|
