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Post by Ingram on Dec 15, 2020 23:47:52 GMT
Hows about because post-Vader Anakin never existed to begin with. The original 'Sebastian Shaw' ghost version was un-scarred, replete with all four limbs and even hair; a version of older Anakin Skywalker that never was. What served well enough as an explanation prior to the Prequels is that such was an ideal form that our redeemed hero spiritually chose ...insofar that audiences would still recognize the actor and thus avoid confusion. In other words, it's what Lucas had to work with. So it was fine. For then.
With the Prequels well-underway and Hayden's personification in place, wider and more dramatically effective options were now open to Lucas, and it's not as if he's one for skirting improvements where they might tread on production history or fandom comforts. I ask: What makes more a) in-universe logical sense, and b) dramatic sense together, that Anakin manifests for himself amidst the great beyond an oddly hypothetical incarnation of his middle-aged being from an alternate timeline or that he simply, perhaps even unconsciously, revert to the younger man he once actually was?
Of course, all of this requires some degree of sincere artistic/intellectual engagement with the films, which is not really the way of things popularly. Instead, let's fall back on brainless stock complaints that easily trigger only the most superficial fandom investments. Clickbait trash, indeed.
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Post by Somny on Dec 16, 2020 0:19:10 GMT
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Post by Cryogenic on Dec 16, 2020 0:23:57 GMT
Hows about because post-Vader Anakin never existed to begin with. The original 'Sebastian Shaw' ghost version was un-scarred, replete with all four limbs and even hair; a version of older Anakin Skywalker that never was. What served well enough as an explanation prior to the Prequels is that such was an ideal form that our redeemed hero spiritually chose ...insofar that audiences would still recognize the actor and thus avoid confusion. In other words, it's what Lucas had to work with. So it was fine. For then. Quite. He also wasn't fully then, in a revealed sense, "The Chosen One" -- he was just a broken man returned to goodness. When Lucas expanded his saga, his concept of Anakin expanded along with it. When Anakin overthrows the Emperor and saves Luke, his Jedi Trial is complete; and when he passes away, his sins are washed clean. His youthful visage expresses this conceit in a poignant, succinct, and life-affirming way. Moreover, he reincarnates himself on Endor: a wooded realm rippling with happiness and joy. It totally fits.
Becoming young again is meant to be one of humanity's coveted prizes. And given the "Fountain Of Youth" motif Lucas implanted in the PT, the only way to imply a proper restoration of Anakin's soul is to show him as he once was. With the image of Hayden, Anakin truly is returning to the promising, self-sacrificing Jedi he used to be: before he pledged himself to Sidious and, in Lucas' words, entered into a Faustian pact in a desperate bid to have power over life and death, throwing everything into the fire for a chance to bend the universe to his will.
Forgetting is also a key theme -- or, rather, embracing the totality of one's being, in order to find true peace and wholeness. Because it's Anakin's ROTS visage. This person was obviously a flawed individual; but one still striving and capable of loving. This is the Anakin that existed after he slaughtered the Sand People, but before he gave up the struggle and turned his back on the Jedi path. Except here he has been relieved of his burdens. Free at last.
An alternate title for the movie could be: THE REMEMBRANCE OF THE JEDI
"Seeking to forget makes exile all the longer; the secret of redemption lies in remembrance."
-- Richard von Weizsaecker
You sound triggered this evening, Ingram!!! Can't say I blame you.
Almost everyone seems to approach these films with comic book goggles. There's actually a rich, delicate, mature, and overarching story at work. A redemption tapestry. And yes, these pieces only serve to coarsen the discourse. It wasn't really sand that Anakin hated. It was Screen Rant.
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Post by Ingram on Dec 16, 2020 2:01:13 GMT
You sound triggered this evening, Ingram!!! I've been eating a lot of power bars. Sith power bars.
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Post by thephantomcalamari on Dec 16, 2020 3:07:41 GMT
Hows about because post-Vader Anakin never existed to begin with. The original 'Sebastian Shaw' ghost version was un-scarred, replete with all four limbs and even hair; a version of older Anakin Skywalker that never was. What served well enough as an explanation prior to the Prequels is that such was an ideal form that our redeemed hero spiritually chose ...insofar that audiences would still recognize the actor and thus avoid confusion. In other words, it's what Lucas had to work with. So it was fine. For then.
With the Prequels well-underway and Hayden's personification in place, wider and more dramatically effective options were now open to Lucas, and it's not as if he's one for skirting improvements where they might tread on production history or fandom comforts. I ask: What makes more a) in-universe logical sense, and b) dramatic sense together, that Anakin manifests for himself amidst the great beyond an oddly hypothetical incarnation of his middle-aged being from an alternate timeline or that he simply, perhaps even unconsciously, revert to the younger man he once actually was?
Of course, all of this requires some degree of sincere artistic/intellectual engagement with the films, which is not really the way of things popularly. Instead, let's fall back on brainless stock complaints that easily trigger only the most superficial fandom investments. Clickbait trash, indeed.
What's funny is that having Hayden there literally just makes the most sense, objectively. Like, imagine you had never seen any of these movies before, and you're watching them through, the latest versions, I through VI. What are you going to expect Anakin to look like as a ghost? His gruesome burnt-up self? His gruesome burnt-up self but with everything reverted except for the normal physical effects of age that hypothetically would have occurred were they not obscured by his burn injuries? Or are you going to expect him to look like he did the last time we saw him as a normal person? Obviously the last one.
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Post by Cryogenic on Dec 16, 2020 13:50:34 GMT
What's funny is that having Hayden there literally just makes the most sense, objectively. Like, imagine you had never seen any of these movies before, and you're watching them through, the latest versions, I through VI. What are you going to expect Anakin to look like as a ghost? His gruesome burnt-up self? His gruesome burnt-up self but with everything reverted except for the normal physical effects of age that hypothetically would have occurred were they not obscured by his burn injuries? Or are you going to expect him to look like he did the last time we saw him as a normal person? Obviously the last one. Well, there are those who claim that the bigger problem is Lucas screwed up the implementation of Anakin's Force Ghost. The idea was there, they say, but the way he went about it was lacking. Fortunately, I have corrected this oversight...
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Post by jppiper on Dec 16, 2020 20:13:27 GMT
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Post by thephantomcalamari on Dec 17, 2020 5:07:59 GMT
The quote the article is about appears to originally come from the making-of book for AOTC that came out in 2002. The Archives book must have merely re-printed it. So this was not an excuse Lucas made up twenty years later. It was something he said at the time, before the movie was released. Again, no fact-checking required.
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Post by Cryogenic on Dec 17, 2020 6:26:45 GMT
The quote the article is about appears to originally come from the making-of book for AOTC that came out in 2002. The Archives book must have merely re-printed it. So this was not an excuse Lucas made up twenty years later. It was something he said at the time, before the movie was released. Again, no fact-checking required. Exactly. I'm glad you pointed that out because you've saved me the hassle. But then, I can never resist... A near-identical quote does, indeed, appear in that much earlier publication. Let's compare: The quote (or part of it) can be glimpsed in this flick-through video @ 2:10 : Title: STAR WARS Mythmaking: Behind the Scenes of Attack of the Clones [Book Review] Channel: The Art and Making of Uploaded: 19 Apr 2020 Unfortunately, this person's camera (being polite) isn't very good, and the text is virtually impossible to make out, aside from scant words and impressions. If you zoom in, you'll see that the second-to-last paragraph on the left-hand column of the right page (page 91) ends with the sentence quoted above ("And this film is even more of a melodrama than the others."). About two-thirds of the way up in that same paragraph, you may be able to resolve an earlier sentence ("Let's face it, their dialogue..."). This quote has been reproduced on the Internet many times. The 2020 version: It looks like the last sentence might be new. If so, it must have been edited out before. But until I can scrutinise the making-of book for AOTC more closely, I couldn't say for sure. I was going to buy it a few months ago, but it has shot up in price -- INFURIATING because I own the books for TPM and ROTS and those ones are still SUPER CHEAP!!! Gosh, last night, I was doing my Christmas shopping on Amazon and almost clicked to buy it, but something held me back. It's a beautiful book and I need it. Anyway, that Screen Rant author is doing what all people griping about the PT and AOTC have done -- they've contrived to be ignorant of Lucas justifying his choices at the time he made them, so that they can then turn around and assert (direct quote), "Of course, it’s easy to make excuses for something nearly two decades after its release". It's also easy to ignore material that undermines one's posturing and grandstanding and clickbaiting. The author then asserts: It doesn't mean that it doesn't work, either. Art, as they say, is in the eye of the beholder. And the dialogue isn't meant to reminiscent "of a simpler time". Rather, it is meant to be reminiscent of a more civilised and elegant age. Then they immediately commit a "parts from whole" or division fallacy: People often reject things that are different, rather than accepting the fact that the human experience (and the universe) are complex and diverse. As Lucas himself once said, the Japanese have a saying: "The nail that sticks out gets hammered down." A crude Western equivalent: "The squeaky wheel gets the grease." Something being different doesn't make it wrong or invalid. Indeed, it may confer important benefits and provide necessary functions. You wouldn't chuck out the human liver just because it violates bilateral symmetry of the host body (or you wouldn't be wise to do so). Similarly, you wouldn't decline to look after a three-legged cat just because it's three-legged (or hopefully you wouldn't decide on that basis alone). This was the basic lesson Lucas chose to impart with Jar Jar -- surprise, surprise: most people missed it.
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Post by Subtext Mining on Dec 17, 2020 9:59:10 GMT
The thing is, just about every character in the OT talks like just about every character in the PT.
Basically it's just Luke and Han and sometimes Leia, when she's talking with Luke and Han, that kind of don't.
Tarkin, Vader, The Emperor, Mon Mothma, Admiral Ackbar, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Imperial officers, etc. etc. I don't know why people were shocked to find that characters also spoke like this 20+ years earlier.
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Post by Alexrd on Dec 17, 2020 13:45:49 GMT
I have that book. Here are the relevant pages: EDIT: The new Archives books are filled with old quotes and in most cases those are either more complete or more truncated. EDIT 2: Ironic how this page of the book mentions that the first VFX shot ever finalized for AOTC is the one in the above banner of this sub-forum:
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Post by thephantomcalamari on Dec 17, 2020 18:49:20 GMT
EDIT 2: Ironic how this page of the book mentions that the first VFX shot ever finalized for AOTC is the one in the above banner of this sub-forum: One of my favorite shots in the series, too! It's such a uniquely Lucasian image: 19th century Romanticism mixed with 21st century digitalism, augmented by a bunch of absurd alien creatures with comically huge butts. But not a single pixel of it insincere or self-parodying. I'm like a broken record with this, but we're never going to see the likes of this again any time soon, I'm afraid.
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Post by jppiper on Dec 17, 2020 18:50:38 GMT
Cryogenicshould i stop posting screen rant articles?
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Post by Cryogenic on Dec 17, 2020 19:44:49 GMT
I have that book. Here are the relevant pages: EDIT: The new Archives books are filled with old quotes and in most cases those are either more complete or more truncated. EDIT 2: Ironic how this page of the book mentions that the first VFX shot ever finalized for AOTC is the one in the above banner of this sub-forum: Thanks, Alex. That's great! I've been meaning to acquire the book for years, but every time I would always say, "In a few months' time..." And now, if I'm ever to pump out my AOTC treatise (it's still in the works), I need it to finish off a few sections. It's not that the book is crazily expensive, but it's way more than the books for TPM and ROTS, and I own both of those -- so the principle is pissing me off! Star Wars product that I don't own (versus the stuff I do) has a nasty habit of going up in price. I wanted to finally buy TCW (on DVD) a few months ago, and I was shocked to discover the price: £179.99! I was willing to pay up to £100, but that insane price tag (on, let's face it, an inferior format) ruled it out for me. Darn infuriating. EDIT 2: Ironic how this page of the book mentions that the first VFX shot ever finalized for AOTC is the one in the above banner of this sub-forum: One of my favorite shots in the series, too! It's such a uniquely Lucasian image: 19th century Romanticism mixed with 21st century digitalism, augmented by a bunch of absurd alien creatures with comically huge butts. But not a single pixel of it insincere or self-parodying. I'm like a broken record with this, but we're never going to see the likes of this again any time soon, I'm afraid. "Magnificent, aren't they?" "I don't know." Anyway, yeah -- it looks like they really went to town on that shot and invested time in getting it right. It could easily be the shot of the movie -- if there weren't like 100,000 other good frames. It's an awesomely rich tableau; which is basically the prequels in a nutshell. It's also very bright and colourful. That might seem obvious, but very few filmmakers are keen to stain the canvas in light to that degree. Most seem to enjoy deep blacks, hard shadows, murk, grain, etc. Not Lucas. Not on AOTC. Even though the picture is moody in tone and thematically dark, scenes are very readable; even the dark/night-time ones. Lucas isn't afraid to bare all. But his frames are also so dense, and the intercutting so precise, you'll never hope to drink it all in. Try to catch every droplet of those waterfalls. Impossible. His imagery is truly alive. Its fecundity cannot be contained or restrained. Maybe that's what all the bluster online has been about the past twenty years. Good luck, all you "objective" critics. Just try to unweave that digisheen rainbow. Cryogenic should i stop posting screen rant articles? It's up to you. Some articles are better than others, but none are particularly great. This last one, however, is pretty pathetic. As thephantomcalamari indicated, it is built around a single quote and demonstrates a total lack of fact-checking. Prequel fans are rightly irritated at this low-effort crap, but it's also a good encapsulation of what we've been dealing with through the years.
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Post by jppiper on Dec 17, 2020 21:18:57 GMT
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Post by Cryogenic on Dec 17, 2020 23:27:29 GMT
Alright. But you'll have to excuse me for whizzing through them -- or for any whizzing that occurs. Also, four of the ten alleged plot holes pertain to the Disney films, and ArchdukeOfNaboo has made it abundantly clear he'd prefer to keep talk of them in this section -- the Lucas Era -- to a bare minimum. Mind you, I'm Cryo, and he's an Arch, and cryo don't like obeying no arches. Most egregious? Even before the article begins, we have a hyperbolic, attention-grabbing, clickbait headline. Quite tedious how often this happens. Many people would probably agree, however, that there are problematic, questionable, or bizarre lapses in logic -- or, at the least, storytelling ellipses -- in all the movies. Not that that is automatically a bad thing. What is an epic work of fiction without the odd contradiction or quirk? What is any human undertaking without omission or flaw? Two resonant metaphors: The Death Star with its fatal weak-spot and Poe engaging in lightspeed skipping. Sorry, Disney movie reference. But it's neat how the "first" and "last" Star Wars films offer self-aware synecdoches to better interpret their odd makeup. In the PT, this would be Jar Jar. Star Wars is a cosmic jester -- the whole thing, in a way, is cosmic jest. Qui-Gon's wonderful maxim can ever be applied to these articles, too: "Your focus determines your reality." In the words of Pyrogenic : "Star Wars already said that." And this dense package of entertainment has also contributed -- subjectively speaking -- an embarrassment of riches to the wider entertainment, imagination nexus, and philosophical/parallel universe fields. I mean, Star Wars is a monster: a great big sprawling beast. "I thought that hairy beast would be the end of me." Oh, it probably will. Basically: Glass half-empty/half-full. Nah. He always knew. "Somehow, I've always known." It really comes down, per the Qui-Gon line above, to one's focus. Even the author begins by calling the Force mysterious. It gives characters (and viewers) intuitions and intimations, but it is rarely (if ever) concrete. That's down to the interpreter/receiver. Like searching for advanced extraterrestrial intelligence. Would we even recognise it if we saw it? Vader half has the answer after interrogating Leia: "Her resistance to the mind probe is considerable." Wakey, wakey, Darth. The Forcen needen to awaken, sah! In fact, Vader is quite the comedian in ANH. Leia's resistance to the mind probe is considerable, while he comments about struggling to lock onto Luke's X-Wing: "The Force is strong in this one." Vader has become so business-as-usual that he has forgotten what the Force -- and what family -- feels like. A grand cosmic gag. No wonder he is left with the proverbial egg on his face at the end of the movie. He goes into TESB with additional knowledge, though he misses out on the daughter connection to Leia until the end of ROTJ. It's one of the joys of the series: characters realising the truth was under their nose all along. Just like some scientists posit there are more dimensions of space and time than we can perceive, and some of them may be coiled up right under our nose (literally). The metaphysics of Star Wars are ace. There is some basic agreement that reality is not quite what it first (and persistently) seems both sides of the screen. You have to keep existing and working through the problem to find the wayfinder that takes you to the clone Palpatine hiding in the mystery box temple. Oh, sorry. Disney again. One of the weirdest plot holes? Seriously? This author is an amusing troll. It is possible the Ewoks are familiar with humans and even have human clothing at their village. Maybe Leia even had extra survival garments under her main forest disguise. Maybe the Ewoks refashioned them into Earth Goddess apparel. Leia's long hair shows how much hair she was hiding and keeping bound up in the previous films. A bit like her daughter -- yes? Wicket seems happy to lead Leia to their village. So maybe they had expected humans to show up for a while. Perhaps the appearance of the rebels was fulfilling an ancient prophecy. Poe is like Threepio. He's basically invincible. And he has hot Latino sex appeal. What other explanation could there possibly be? What more of an explanation could one possibly want? She learned Wookie playing on her GameCube. Probably being the granddaughter of Palpatine enabled her to learn things really fast. Also: We don't see her earliest years. She was deposited on Jakku as a small girl. She could have been taught one or two things before then. In another JJ film, a character adept at languages boasts about having "exceptional aural sensitivity". Perhaps this is part of the explanation. Jedi have heightened senses and hearing seems to have a metaphysical aspect. This definitely plays out in Rey's arc in the film when she "hears" sounds coming from the cellar (the mystery box vision sequence) in Maz's tavern. So maybe Rey was able to understand Chewie's vocalisations because they are closer to the way the Force works or something. Even Yoda says he has "good relations" with the Wookiees in ROTS. So maybe Rey could just intuit what Chewie says. Maybe Han had the same ability. Qui-Gon never tells Obi-Wan that. It's the Jedi Council that are strongly opposed to masters having more than one apprentice. There's no lack of continuity between the films -- there's merely an expanded vision. Yoda was one of Obi-Wan's old masters because Yoda trained the younglings and seemed to continue giving Obi-Wan training during and after his apprenticeship to Qui-Gon. Moreover, Obi-Wan is obviously simplifying for Luke. Yoda is the last remaining Jedi Master (ever shown on-screen) in the timeframe of the OT. Mentioning other Jedi Masters would be beside the point. I mean, did your parents tell you everything about their past, including all the people they dated and might even have married in their earlier years? The past is something of a forbidden/rocky place (Artoo venturing away from Threepio to a rocky area in the original movie) and people often cover things up; or "don't want to talk" about them. It shouldn't be any surprise the past is surprising. "It's ironic." Like all these items, it's open to interpretation -- was Luke using the Force or not? I would argue he certainly isn't using the Force in an overt way, and that might be the point. Luke is arguably tricking Jabba in order to lower his defences for later. As the author notes: "His later escape from Jabba is full of Jedi tricks." Either that or the rancor is too overwhelming for Luke to even begin thinking of applying the Force to his situation. It's a raw encounter that is similar to Anakin taming the reek (admittedly with a sprinkling of the Force, it seems) and Obi-Wan fighting the acklay (no particular Force tricks in evidence). Sometimes, maybe, Jedi are overwhelmed. And Luke isn't yet at the full height of his powers. His confidence is something of an illusion. Symbolically, too, when Luke drops into the pit, he loses his cloak -- perhaps indicating that he essentially had the wind knocked out of him and is left without his usual crutches. The rancor may also be powerful enough that using the Force around it is difficult. When the reek chases Mace in the arena, all he really does is desperately try and outrun it; and the reek almost gets the better of Mace in that moment, who is meant to be (at least according to Anakin) among the most powerful Jedi in the entire Jedi Order. It is notable that Luke also tries shooting Jabba first. This is either part of his deceptive gambit (trying to make himself look like an out-of-his-depth, rash idiot), or it shows that Luke has a bit of Anakin in him (his warning to Jabba not to underestimate his power is an echo of Anakin's warning to Obi-Wan on Mustafar), and maybe Luke is pretty weak-sauce without his cloak or Jedi weapons to make him feel safe and powerful. In other words, falling into the pit (to repeat myself) is a shock to his senses, and he is forced into a raw-combat mode, relying solely on his basic wits. But either reading works well. The basic message being put across here is: Never underestimate a droid... Jedi. The Falcon belonged to Unkar Plutt. It was being kept in a state of flight readiness. Admittedly, Rey does say to Finn, "This ship hasn't flown in years." But I'm not sure how literally that should be taken. It maybe didn't have a ton of fuel to keep galaxy-hopping, but maybe enough to leave the planet and make a few jumps. It's possible that the compressor Plutt installed, which Rey says puts too much stress on the hyperdrive, was a way to make it more fuel-efficient, at the cost of weakening other system components over time. I don't know why it hasn't been stripped for parts, or why there was no lock on the door, but maybe Plutt was untouchable and everyone knew to keep their hands off his property. Oh, not this one again. It's been explained a thousand times already. If the author doesn't accept the explanation, there's not much more to say. Although their reading is simplistic. The argument is not that Leia could form memories at birth (although that's one form of the argument), but that the Force later makes it feel like she has an authentic memory. Leia believes, at that early stage in her Jedi journey, she is genuinely remembering her mother from a young age ("She died when I was very young"). But the context of the scene makes it clear Luke is testing her abilities. Leia is basically perceiving Padme backwards through time. Yoda tells Luke in TESB that this is an ability the Force grants people: "Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The future, the past. Old friends long gone." It's right there in the first sequel! Unfortunately, very few Star Wars fans would make particularly good Jedi. They have zero imagination and miss key facets of the mythology that aren't even difficult to apprehend (or, I guess, they are). But of course: Leia doesn't know what this memory is. She has a more naive view of the way the Force works than Luke. Luke is confident that she will eventually develop her latent abilities and become as adept as he is. The scene is predicated on one character knowing more than the other, yet being amazed at how good the other character already is and warm to the the potential for them to be really good. Basically, the scene between Luke and Leia is the OT equivalent of the PT's blood test scene between Qui-Gon and Anakin. People have an impaired understanding of both. Unlikely, but not impossible. Or maybe he used it many times before and Chewie was just humouring the senile old man. Could even have become an in-joke. "Stop pretending you've never used this thing before and just use it." That kinda thing. If Wookiees could talk... No -- the droid that accompanies Obi-Wan to Kamino and then to Geonosis is R4-P17. Granted, this means that Obi-Wan basically owned a droid before, but maybe he doesn't see it that way. Given the Jedi's emphasis on no attachments and possessions being forbidden, Obi-Wan is maybe being a bit coy or has a bit of a blindspot. The look he shoots Artoo when Artoo plays the message in his hovel is very telling. At that moment, Obi-Wan seems to know what is at stake. Maybe it all comes flooding back to him in a flash of lightning. Jedi seem to have their own ways of forgetting and remembering.
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Post by jppiper on Dec 18, 2020 1:04:24 GMT
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Post by Cryogenic on Dec 18, 2020 1:36:44 GMT
Ah! Nicely done.
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Post by jppiper on Dec 18, 2020 1:55:04 GMT
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Post by thephantomcalamari on Dec 18, 2020 9:21:18 GMT
No -- the droid that accompanies Obi-Wan to Kamino and then to Geonosis is R4-P17. Granted, this means that Obi-Wan basically owned a droid before, but maybe he doesn't see it that way. Given the Jedi's emphasis on no attachments and possessions being forbidden, Obi-Wan is maybe being a bit coy or has a bit of a blindspot. The look he shoots Artoo when Artoo plays the message in his hovel is very telling. At that moment, Obi-Wan seems to know what is at stake. Maybe it all comes flooding back to him in a flash of lightning. Jedi seem to have their own ways of forgetting and remembering. The explanation that was always given by Lucasfilm was that Arfour does not belong to Obi-Wan--she belongs to the Jedi Order, and Obi-Wan merely uses her for missions. This makes sense to me. Presumably, the Jedi Order has a large droid pool for their members to avail themselves of. Individual Jedi would have no reason to personally own a droid. Whether or not Anakin technically owned Artoo or not is an interesting question. I would suspect that he technically did not, and that he remained under the official ownership of Padme.
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