If Qui-Gon Jinn survived

"Impossible, the Sith have been extinct for a millennium." "I do not think the Sith could have returned without us knowing." They pretty clearly don't believe it (or those two don't). They don't end up using "all of their resources" like Mace first claims, they only send Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. Which to me appears like they don't hold this matter as being of gravest importance. I think this Lucas quote supports this view: "Our central characters - Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Padme, and Anakin - are all trying to do the right thing, but they're completely overwhelmed by forces that are way bigger than they are. The Jedi Council and bureaucrats in the Senate are the inactive forces working against them; while unbeknownst to them the active one is Palpatine."

On Dooku's claims, "Do you believe what Count Dooku said about Sidious controlling the senate. It doesn't feel right", "No, that's not possible. The Jedi would be aware of it" (hubris)  and simply "I don't believe you". Obi-Wan doesn't believe it. Yoda seems to believe they are lies, as well: "Lies, deceit, creating mistrust are his ways now." Dooku said that they weren't aware of it because the dark side had clouded their vision, just like they had earlier confirmed themselves. This should be a clue to the Jedi that he is indeed telling the truth.

I don't think Qui-Gon would have joined Dooku or the dark side, but perhaps lost faith in the Republic and the Jedi and become independent. That's just my theorizing, however.

You're right about Anakin. I just hold the belief that Qui-Gon would have been a different sort of teacher to the other Jedi, and would have altered the course of events had he taught Anakin. I don't think his attachments would have gotten the better of him had Qui-Gon lived. This is a matter of opinion, that you can glean from information in the movies and Lucas' quotes.

It's telling that Lucas equates the Jedi Council to the corrupt and inefficient bureaucracy of the senate. The Jedi are portrayed as fallible, not as something perfect. This quote says as much about them joining the war: 

George Lucas: As the situation develops, they are recruited into the army, and they become generals. They're not generals. They don't kill people. They don't fight. They're supposed to be ambassadors. There are a lot of Jedi that think that the Jedi sold out, that they should have never have been in the army, but...

Paul Duncan: Do you think that?

George Lucas: It's a tough call. It's one of those conundrums, of which there's a bunch of in my movies. You have to think it through. Are they going to stick by their moral rules and all be killed, which makes it irrelevant, or do they help save the Republic? They have good intentions, but they have been manipulated, which was their downfall.

TPM ("I can only protect you, I cannot fight a war for you") and AotC ("We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers") stress that the Jedi fighting in wars is wrong. They were manipulated to give up their morals. Which to me says that the PT Jedi were already an unfocused and decadent institution. Anakin thinks the war is corrupting the Jedi, as well: "Sometimes I wonder what's happening to the Jedi Order. This war is destroying the principles of the Republic."

I like that part of the quote as well. One of the aspects I most appreciate about the PT is that it presents a powerful, enlightened warrior "ambassador" class but doesn't pose them as infallible or beyond reproach. Something that would be easy to do and reflect a high degree of virtue signaling on the part of the creator. But here, Lucas is saying that even amid this imagined super or hyper-strata of civilization, there are flaws or cracks within the system. The narrative meets us where we are as a species, in a sense. We have ivory towers and elaborate moral codes yet perfection and utopia remain elusive. The "conundrum" in the work is also humanity's - particularly our so-called finest.

There is an interesting quote from John Williams:

"I was watching the duel between Darth Maul and Qui-Gon and it occurred to me that it might be wonderful to have voices as part of the music. I wanted to find a text that would offer vowel sounds, which is really the so-called noise that a chorus will make. We can't ever fully understand when a chorus sings the words, and in a dramatic sense, it's not important that we know the words, just that a chorus has a certain kind of sound. I found an ancient Celtic text called "The Battle of the Trees." There is a stanza, which in English is; "Under the tongue root a fight most dreaded, while another rages behind in the head." The symbolism on the poetry is that the trees become animated and they become the warriors in the battle. At the end of the battle, the druid priest freezes them back into tree form. It gave an almost religious feeling to that duel as though they were fighting in a church. I had a translator put the text into a couple of languages. Celtic didn't have the vowels we needed. Greek and Latin were not remote enough. So I had it put into Sanskrit and we used the Sanskrit text just as syllables to intone the words "Dreaded fight that's here or lingering in the head." The piece really describes an unstoppable force of destiny, like the Force George talks about."

I believe the battle that lingers behind in the head is for Anakin's fate. Especially when Qui-Gon sits meditating, he is surely sensing the possibilities of the future, and what will happen to Anakin.

Duel of the Fates refers of course to Qui-Gon and Maul's death, but also to Obi-Wan's fate, which is to train Anakin. And had Qui-Gon survived, he would have trained Anakin. So Anakin's fate is also part of the duel. I believe Filoni is right, he just leaves out a little information.

It's also used during Anakin's search for his mother, and it plays briefly during the Anakin vs. Obi-Wan fight, strenghtening it's ties to him.

Incidentally:

Qui-Gon also never mentions the Dark Side, though he does cordially nod when Yoda mentions it in the first Jedi Council scene.

On the other hand, a major irony is that Qui-Gon is the first Jedi, perhaps in a millennium, to encounter the Dark Side in the form of a person (Darth Maul), and the first to raise the possibility that the person who attacked him was a Sith Lord. From that point of view, he has no problem with labels to do with people/items (he even labels the TF "cowards" in practically the first scene of the movie), nor does he have a problem labelling the Force ("the Living Force"), but you are left with the impression he either doesn't like to acknowledge the Dark Side in name, or doesn't feel it helpful to talk of the Force in those conventional light-and-dark terms (e.g., consider his argument with Obi-Wan where he rebuts his concerns about Anakin: "His fate is uncertain, he's not dangerous").

The utilitarian attitude to the Force displayed by many Jedi is also expressed in Anakin's philosophy of "If it works". People tend to interpret Anakin's remarks in the meadow scene as advocating fascism, but he is really applying a pragmatic attitude -- albeit to complex issues, while Padme tends (slightly) more towards nuance. You can infer this attitude of Anakin's comes from a variety of sources, including the Jedi Order he has spent the last ten years training within. Qui-Gon himself would probably have encouraged Anakin to be pragmatic, but with more reliance or trust in the meditative, regenerative lake of the Force -- versus the cruder way Obi-Wan and Yoda both seem to speak of the Force, as if it's another tool to be used to get out of trouble.

Maybe Qui-Gon's faith in opportunities unfolding or revealing themselves, vis-a-vis aggressively grabbing onto things and hoping for the best (visual metaphor: Anakin clinging onto Zam's speeder for dear life when she hits the throttle), is best encapsulated by what he says on Mos Espa: "I'm sure another solution will present itself." And it did: Anakin. Qui-Gon's composed state of mind, and the general outlook that seemingly enabled him to maintain it, is surely something Anakin could have benefited from. On another note: How ironic that Anakin became the "solution" on Tatooine, but worried about being a "problem" on Coruscant.

I certainly agree with both Alexrd and Peppermint for the most part, particularly about how Filoni's rather low view of the Jedi isn't really supported by the films themselves or TCW. As far as the question of Qui-Gon, I'm not so sure how it would have played out. He perhaps would have been a better teacher for Anakin than Obi-Wan was at the time, and it's certainly possible he could have made it harder for Palpatine to drag Anakin into the darkside. I can't see how he would've helped foil Palpatine sooner, as Palpatine had all the cards in his hands and there was practically no way they would've been revealed to him. Qui-Gon was seemingly never close to Dooku, and I think he would've fallen to the dark side anyway and become Tyranus after Maul's death.

Another interesting side to the Prequels, that I touched on in the 'Anakin's Fall' thread, is how most of the time, the characters in these films are all a little bit right and a little bit wrong (besides the Sith).

CUT Magazine: When I think that Anakin will become Darth Vader, I feel it is better he not be trained as a Jedi - has Qui-Gon Jinn made a mistake?

GL: I think it's obvious that Qui-Gon was wrong in Episode I and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this decision may be correct. The Phantom Menace refers to the force of the dark side of the Universe. Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy, but the individual who kills the Emperor is Darth Vader - also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction, and Qui-Gon are correct - Anakin is the Chosen One, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrifice. Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor.

I believe this points out that neither Qui-Gon nor the the Council were completely correct or incorrect when it came to deciding whether or not Anakin should be a Jedi. But it does affirm that inducting him at his age was a very risky choice. Ultimately it spells out to us that it was up to Anakin how he would play out his destiny and the fate of the galaxy. Given his external influences, of course, but ultimately the choices were his alone to make.

I also think Qui-Gon's insistence that Anakin be a Jedi highlights his high view of the Jedi and their ways. This also shows that he's a firm believer in the theory that balance means a strong presence of Jedi in the galaxy. He also seemed certain Anakin would be able to adapt to the Jedi way. And it's not about saying he's right or wrong, but it raises the questions: did Anakin need to be a Jedi? Was he too old to eschew attachments? Does balance mean Jedi preeminence?


It also appears he doesn't seem to have prepared Ani for what to expect from the test as far as his fears and attachments. He seems genuinely surprised that the Council decided Ani was too old to be inducted.

True, I tend to agree. An unfortunate side-effect of the Jedi's necessary lifestyle is that it renders them somewhat unable to relate or level with non-Jedis when it comes to dealing with strong attachments, especially in the case of someone not a toddler potentially being inducted into the order.

But, I also don't see Qui-Gon offering this kind of advice either. He does warn Anakin that the Jedi life is difficult, but other than that it seems the only people who comforted him and encouraged him to bravely weather the new changes were his mom and Padmé. I feel like he could've set Anakin up for success a bit better before the test by saying something like: "Now, they're going to put a lot of emphasis on seeing how you're handling leaving your mother. Like I said before, the Jedi life is challenging, so it's important that you understand the need for Jedi to be aware of their emotions and master them."


It's also interesting how people say Qui-Gon would've been a better mentor and helped Anakin avoid the problems he later faced, and been more understanding with certain things. And yes, maybe he would, I do love the koan aspect of the tale, but we see things like when Obi-Wan sensed the elusive menace permeating the Galaxy while none of the other Jedi did, including Qui-Gon, but Qui-Gon kind of told him to brush it off, without encouraging him to look into it further at a later point. Who knows what might've been different had Qui-Gon encouraged Obi-Wan to pursue searching his feeling further.


I also sometimes wonder why, while fighting Darth Maul, he didn't back-pedal and regroup with Obi-Wan when the shield gates opened back up. By charging Maul alone he not only put his own life in great danger, but also Obi-Wan's, and Anakin's, and Padmé's, and her people's, and all of Naboo, and all of the galaxy's.


I like Qui-Gon and think he's a great role model, and an element that the Jedi Order needed, it's just I also don't think he's exempt from hubris or being headstrong at times.

Again, I think Cryo summed it up well:

I'd only add that perhaps the Order could've used more Qui-Gons, but that they can't all be Qui-Gons. I think there's a certain amount of necessity for the Council being they way they were, which I went over in one of my posts in the 'PT and the Problem of Choice' thread in September, but like with all things, it's about balance. Yes, Qui-Gon often goes against the grain, yet as Cryo points out, they kind of don't seem all too bothered by it ultimately, especially Yoda, who seems to appreciate what he brings to the table.