|
|
Post by smittysgelato on Jun 14, 2021 19:20:56 GMT
The writer in me says that Vader's Death Star line, "I sense something...A presence I've not felt since...," will indeed be recontextualized from Mustafar to a meeting that takes place during the series, whether in person or through a vision. After all, there's still another decade to go before A New Hope, so their meeting in the series could indeed become the last time Vader felt Obi-Wan's presence.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cryogenic on Jun 14, 2021 19:26:37 GMT
The writer in me says that Vader's Death Star line, "I sense something...A presence I've not felt since...," will indeed be recontextualized from Mustafar to a meeting that takes place during the series, whether in person or through a vision. After all, there's still another decade to go before A New Hope, so their meeting in the series could indeed become the last time Vader felt Obi-Wan's presence. Yep. The poetry of the original line will be lost. "Since..."Mustafar, choking Padme, being burned to a crisp, getting remade and entombed as Darth Vader, and losing the love of his life. What can rightly compare to all of that? They've got quite a challenge on their hands. |
|
|
|
Post by smittysgelato on Jun 14, 2021 19:33:09 GMT
The writer in me says that Vader's Death Star line, "I sense something...A presence I've not felt since...," will indeed be recontextualized from Mustafar to a meeting that takes place during the series, whether in person or through a vision. After all, there's still another decade to go before A New Hope, so their meeting in the series could indeed become the last time Vader felt Obi-Wan's presence. Yep. The poetry of the original line will be lost. "Since..."Mustafar, choking Padme, being burned to a crisp, getting remade and entombed as Darth Vader, and losing the love of his life. What can rightly compare to all of that? They've got quite a challenge on their hands. Even if they come up with something amazing it is hard to imagine them topping all of that indeed. The writer in me drools at the challenge, but the fanboy in me scoffs. If Vader crosses paths with Obi-Wan, they can also play with the suspense of Vader almost finding out about Luke and Luke's whereabouts. Although, that is very limited in terms of entertainment value since we know he isn't going to discover Luke. |
|
|
|
Post by Cryogenic on Jun 14, 2021 19:54:35 GMT
The writer in me drools at the challenge, but the fanboy in me scoffs. Haha! You've put that very neatly, indeed. |
|
|
|
Post by jppiper on Jun 14, 2021 21:34:16 GMT
smittysgelato shows that kk doesn't know anything about Star Wars and lucas said in the audio commentary of ANH that the vader obi-wan duel was a rematch of the one in ROTS
|
|
|
|
Post by Cryogenic on Jun 14, 2021 21:52:58 GMT
smittysgelato shows that kk doesn't know anything about Star Wars and lucas said in the audio commentary of ANH that the vader obi-wan duel was a rematch of the one in ROTS The line of Vader boasting that when he left Obi-Wan, he was "but the learner", and he now considers himself "the master", is pretty problematic here -- whatever it is they're planning. I'm sure there are ways of making it work, but there's not a great deal of wiggle room without diminishing the starkness of the original encounter in ANH. Of course, technically, Anakin/Vader never really "leaves" Obi-Wan in Episode III. On the contrary, Obi-Wan leaves him. So Lucas himself already creatively deviated from what the line originally implied. But then, you might argue, that's the way Anakin sees it, in all his hubris and arrogance -- he "left" Obi-Wan and the Jedi behind at some point, mentally, and then it was only a hop, a skip, and a jump to becoming a full-blown Sith Lord. I just hope they do something reasonable. The original clash has a certain gravitas to it because the idea that they haven't encountered each other in a long time is extremely potent -- i.e., this reckoning is long overdue. If Disney/LFL are going to whizz all over that, well... |
|
|
|
Post by Seeker of the Whills on Jun 14, 2021 22:00:51 GMT
Wouldn't it also be problematic since Tarkin is surprised that Obi-Wan is still alive in ANH? I assume the series is closer to ANH than RotS in the timeline, like Rogue One. Maybe not that close, but still. If Vader fought Obi-Wan again some time before ANH, he would have reported it to the imperials. I hope they do something creative, like a meditation battle. Maybe they're sensing each other through great distances and somehow trying to influence each other. It could leave some doubt if they know he's alive or not. That would fit the line "You should not have come back."
|
|
|
|
Post by Cryogenic on Jun 14, 2021 22:23:22 GMT
Wouldn't it also be problematic since Tarkin is surprised that Obi-Wan is still alive in ANH? I assume the series is closer to ANH than RotS in the timeline, like Rogue One. Maybe not that close, but still. If Vader fought Obi-Wan again some time before ANH, he would have reported it to the imperials. I hope they do something creative, like a meditation battle. Maybe they're sensing each other through great distances and somehow trying to influence each other. It could leave some doubt if they know he's alive or not. That would fit the line "You should not have come back." Yeah, I'm hoping it's some visionary encounter or something like that -- a touch dream-like and surreal. Still, even if Vader somehow realised Obi-Wan was still out there and didn't tell anyone, it would add a layer of complexity to Vader rebutting Tarkin, "Don't underestimate the Force." Meaning, he *is* the Force (or The Chosen One), and he done got some secrets. And his line prior to that, when Tarkin asks him how he could possibly know such a thing, "A tremor in the Force. The last time I felt it was in the presence of my Old Master", could mean anything. There are certainly ways of pulling this off. Let's hope they've found a good one. |
|
|
|
Post by jppiper on Jun 15, 2021 0:36:32 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by Cryogenic on Jun 15, 2021 1:29:58 GMT
ALERT! ALERT! ALERT!That is our good friend, Alessio. See this earlier post (Reply #130) of mine, Joe. Of course, on the Internet, everyone has an opinion.
|
|
|
|
Post by stampidhd280pro on Jun 15, 2021 2:20:17 GMT
ALERT! ALERT! ALERT!That is our good friend, Alessio. See this earlier post (Reply #130) of mine, Joe. Of course, on the Internet, everyone has an opinion. He needs to be euthanized. It's more humane. |
|
|
|
Post by Alexrd on Jun 15, 2021 7:36:59 GMT
Alexrd someone on reddit named marvelvsdc2016 has been bugging me about the obi-wan vader rematch his attempts to explain continuity problems between 3 and 4 is annoying me Well, annoying is Pasquali's middle name, so it checks out. |
|
|
|
Post by jppiper on Jun 15, 2021 10:59:22 GMT
AlexrdDo you think there's continuity problems between 3 & 4 regarding the two duels?
|
|
|
|
Post by Alexrd on Jun 15, 2021 13:40:33 GMT
AlexrdDo you think there's continuity problems between 3 & 4 regarding the two duels? I don't follow. You mean if the duel in ROTS and ANH have continuity problems with each other? I don't think they do, no. |
|
|
|
Post by Cryogenic on Jun 15, 2021 13:48:08 GMT
ALERT! ALERT! ALERT!That is our good friend, Alessio. See this earlier post (Reply #130) of mine, Joe. Of course, on the Internet, everyone has an opinion. He needs to be euthanized. It's more humane. But all kidding aside, Alessio actually has a really solid take on the situation, and I'd like to share it below: The writer in me says that Vader's Death Star line, "I sense something...A presence I've not felt since...," will indeed be recontextualized from Mustafar to a meeting that takes place during the series, whether in person or through a vision. After all, there's still another decade to go before A New Hope, so their meeting in the series could indeed become the last time Vader felt Obi-Wan's presence. Yep. The poetry of the original line will be lost. "Since..."Mustafar, choking Padme, being burned to a crisp, getting remade and entombed as Darth Vader, and losing the love of his life. What can rightly compare to all of that? They've got quite a challenge on their hands. I think Alessio makes a bunch of fair and even excellent points here. He really got me with that distinction at the top between "sensing" and "seeing", for one thing. Perhaps it is only good and proper that Anakin and Obi-Wan have one additional encounter between Mustafar and the Death Star. Perhaps we are too attached to the Star Wars Saga (attachment being Anakin's downfall) to notice our own rigidity, and our own unwillingness to allow for alternative interpretations and other viewpoints. After all, Lucas did build in a pretty big time-gap between ROTS and ANH, in which a lot of stuff could conceivably happen. The extant trilogies span less time internally than that (13 for the PT, around 3 for the OT, and about the same for the ST). It could even be considered a little odd that, in twenty years, Anakin and Obi-Wan never cross paths again in all that time, even with Obi-Wan hiding out on Tatooine. I mean, sure, yeah, it's possible (i.e., there's nothing outrageous about it) -- but so are alternative storylines and explanations. Details change and become augmented as Star Wars expands and those big cracks begin to be filled in. Alessio points out that Lucas changed his mind regarding the stormtroopers. Indeed, he apparently said to Dave Filoni on more than one occasion, "Continuity is for wimps". Look how Lucas introduced Qui-Gon as the discoverer of Anakin -- quite a shift from the cursory implications of the OT. Thanks to Alessio's reasoned insights, I'm warming up to the idea of this series, and I'm now more intrigued about what they might have come up with. My heart still rests with the Lucas Saga, but he's right that Star Wars fans are a judgemental lot. I think we have to learn to cultivate and apply some Jedi patience and be less uptight. In other words, we need to be more like Qui-Gon and a little less like TPM Obi-Wan. Perhaps this new series will even have some meditations along those lines. |
|
|
|
Post by Alexrd on Jun 15, 2021 18:11:46 GMT
As expected, Pasquali's "arguments" don't make any sense whatsoever. He prefers to blind himself from seeing the forest for the trees so that he can accept the corporate production he lives to shill for.
The entire dialogue in ANH points to their last meeting on Mustafar, where Obi-Wan left him for dead. That's one of those premises that never changed.
Someone connected to the Force can sense the presence of the people they see right in front of them, because the Force is generated by all living beings. Seeing and sensing someone are not mutually exclusive. So Vader's line that the last time he sensed Obi-Wan was in his presence is not an invalidation of their meeting on Mustafar, but a validation of it.
Saying that "We haven’t seen how he gave up on Anakin yet and I think this Obi-Wan Kenobi series will show that." is being obtuse on purpose. That's made explicit in the scenes between the two characters on Mustafar:
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I shall do what I must."
"Then you are lost!"
If Obi-Wan hadn't given up, he wouldn't have said these things and he wouldn't have left him burn to death.
--
"We meet again, at last. The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but the learner. Now, I am the master."
He ceased to be Obi-Wan's learner on Mustafar. He severed his connection with Obi-Wan right there and then. There's no possible confrontation between the movies where such quote would make sense. Same for all the others.
|
|
|
|
Post by stampidhd280pro on Jun 15, 2021 18:27:43 GMT
Yeah, I think the dialogue obviously refers to Mustafar, and those arguments are a stretch, however when GL and Filoni were making The Clone Wars, they had to wreck in-film continuity of lines like "My powers have doubled since the last time we met, Count." When was that, two weeks ago? As well as Obi-Wan's reaction to Grievous's four arms in ROTS because he would have seen that before.
|
|
|
|
Post by smittysgelato on Jun 15, 2021 19:06:02 GMT
I feel like Anakin left Kenobi the moment he pledged allegiance to Palpatine and the Sith. So right after he helps to kill Mace, and is declared Darth Vader, he is no longer with Obi-Wan. To be fair though, a learner is a Padawan. In ROTS Anakin is a Jedi Knight. He already isn't Obi-Wan's official student any longer. You have to interpret the line from ANH (When I left you I was but the learner, now I am the master) rather loosely by suggesting that even though Anakin is no longer Obi-Wan's padawan in ROTS, perhaps Anakin still saw himself in that way. He felt like he was trapped by Obi-Wan's authority over him.
If I was going to write a defence of this series, I would def go straight for the fact that Lucas has changed his mind here or there and played it loose with continuity. A great example is Leia's memories of her mother, which suggest Padme survived childbirth and was a part of Leia's very early life. You have to stretch it a bit by saying well, the Force allows Leia to remember things from when she is fresh out of the womb, or that she remembers things from when she was in the womb. In my mind, the fact that Lucas parted ways with logic in regards to Leia's memories of Padme lead to a far more dramatic and meaningful conclusion for Padme. Many of the lines in ANH are vague and connect to Mustafar if you like, but can also be reinterpreted, for better or for worse.
|
|
|
|
Post by Alexrd on Jun 15, 2021 19:23:38 GMT
Leia's vague memory of Padmé was never an implication of her surviving childbirth. As revealed in the annotated screenplays, it was actually something Lucas struggled with because he knew that technically none of the twins should be able to remember her since they were separated when they were born, but he still wanted to establish that, somehow, she was remembered by one of her offsprings.
|
|
|
|
Post by smittysgelato on Jun 15, 2021 19:42:06 GMT
Leia's vague memory of Padmé was never an implication of her surviving childbirth. As revealed in the annotated screenplays, it was actually something Lucas struggled with because he knew that technically none of the twins should be able to remember her since they were separated when they were born, but he still wanted to establish that, somehow, she was remembered by one of her offsprings. Is this the annotated screenplay for ROTJ you are referring to? I have never read it, so that is news to me. However, given how vague her memory is, one could still see Leia growing up with Bail, because it would be too dangerous for her to stay with Padme, but Padme might drop by and visit Leia at Bail's palace from time to time. For me, what always gave me the impression that Padme's death in child birth was a departure from continuity, is the idea that people in general don't remember things from when they are babies, but do remember a bit from their early life. So Leia's description always gave me the impression that her mother died about the time that Leia would have been 2-4 years old. However, when ROTS didn't go that way I was fine with it because the finale for Sith is so spectacular. EDIT: We could also explain Leia's memory as the result of her seeing a hologram recording of her mom. R2 may have been sneaky that way. And sometimes, when you look at old photographs, you remember the photograph later on as if it is a real memory. |
|
