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Post by mikeximus on Nov 14, 2020 12:11:22 GMT
Out of it for a little while and everyone is having delusions of grandeur
...
I have been so incredibly busy the last few months. These forums have always been in the back of my mind as an itch needing to be scratched. Knowing that there was some discussion about something that I left off at here that I needed to eventually get back too, but the days have turned to weeks and than to months so it seems. But when this news of the Lucas Sequel Trilogy information dropped, I had to come here to see what was being said.
I think... I am going to hold off on my in depth... official... opinion on the new information until I can grab the book(s) myself. I want to make sure that I get proper context and am not falling into someone else’s bias with cherry picked quotes.
However... lol... My “gut” reaction to what some of what I’ve read suggests to me that my interpretation of the events post sale may be closer to the mark (in relation to the discussion between Alex and I). It just doesn’t sound like Lucas’s Sequel Trilogy was working with an image of a Luke as Col. Lurtz, at least not right off the bat where Lucas would be worrying about developing that image for Luke in January of 2013 when they were getting ready for the first movie. I still stand by my theory that the meeting that Bob Iger refers too in his book where they break the news to Lucas about the direction they’re moving, is the January 2013 meeting where Lucas views the Luke image. The fabuloso is just him doing his thing, the only thing he really could do at that point as he was in no way shape or form in any creative control, he was just a consultant as has been said he was all along. He was not involved in day to day stuff, and thus why it was such a shock to him when they dropped the news on him.
I am not by any means doing a victory lap. I admit I haven’t read everything, I admit I may be missing information from the book(s) that contradicts my theory. I’m just going by my very superficial and preliminary read of the quotes I’ve seen.
I would like to point out a couple things though... Things that unfortunately are victims of time and changing narratives.
Stormtroopers being clones. Someone in this thread questioned where that theory started. Stormtroopers being clones went as far back as the old Star Wars Fan Club magazine of the 80’s where an article established they were clones. Than in the 90’s, when Hasbro released and restarted the Power Of The Force toyline, the Storntrooper figures bio established them as clones. However, the best evidence of stormtroopers being Clones came in the prequels from Lucas himself. In the AOTC commentary, Lucas points out that he included the scene of Jango Fett bumping his head on the doorway of his ship as an homage to the stormtroopers in the OT constantly bumping their heads. He explains that this trait is passed down to the stormtroopers (as obvious clones of Jango). The reality of course is the stormtroopers bumping their heads in the OT are bloopers caused by the limited vision of the helmets for the actors wearing them, but, Lucas used those moments to humorously tie Jango to the stormtroopers as clones of Jango.
During the making of Episode 3, LFL introduced their pay wall service called Hyperspace. One of the features for hyperspace was called “Set Diaries” by Pablo Hidalgo. Yes, that Pablo Hidalgo! In one of the Set Diaries, Hidalgo mentions that he flat out asked Lucas, while on set of ROTS, if the Stormtroopers were Clones, and Lucas said yes they were. Lucas than makes a joke about how some of the Clones are from less desirable stock of regular people that wanted to join the Empire, but, didn’t have the guts to do it themselves so sent clones, so there are a mix of stormtroopers that can and can’t shoot straight because of this. This is an obvious joke alluding to the fans pointing out the storm troopers lack of accuracy.
Lastly on the AOTC dvd commentary, there’s Lucas talking about how from the very beginning of Boba Fett’s conception he always had Fett tied to the stormtroopers somehow someway. This is why Fett’s original armor was white and black, as Fett’s armor was that of super commandos that served in the Empires ranks with the stormtroopers. As time went on the narrative shifted and Fett’s armor was than changed. Lucas mentions that by making the stormtroopers clones of Jango and Boba a clone of Jango, he’s fulfilling that narrative he always held in his head of there being a connection between Boba and the Stormies.
Than there’s Sifo Dyas. This again seems to be a story/narrative shift away from Lucas’s original thoughts on Count Dooku. Again, coming from Hypersoave and Pablo Hidalgo, it was put forward that in the original script for ROTS there was a scene that laid it out crystal clear how Palpatines plan transpired, kind of one of those villain moments where they gloat over how they beat the good guy. This scene was ultimately cut and never filmed. Hidalgo also mentioned in a Q&A session that we saw, on screen, who ordered the clones. So again, there seems to be a narrative shift over the years if all of a sudden Sifo Dyas is actually a Sith Apprentice.
Wow... didn’t intend to spend this much time on this post... see you all in a few months for my next post lol...
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Post by Alexrd on Nov 14, 2020 13:06:33 GMT
P.S. Alexrd I save personal copies of thread pages as I go. That was how I noticed, just now, that the name of the thread had been subtly altered. I see you added a comma after the word "treatments". Might I recommend placing a colon there instead? Done. I meant to put a dash, but with a space it would surpass the character limit. |
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Post by Alexrd on Nov 14, 2020 14:01:12 GMT
Out of it for a little while and everyone is having delusions of grandeur ... I have been so incredibly busy the last few months. These forums have always been in the back of my mind as an itch needing to be scratched. Knowing that there was some discussion about something that I left off at here that I needed to eventually get back too, but the days have turned to weeks and than to months so it seems. But when this news of the Lucas Sequel Trilogy information dropped, I had to come here to see what was being said. I think... I am going to hold off on my in depth... official... opinion on the new information until I can grab the book(s) myself. I want to make sure that I get proper context and am not falling into someone else’s bias with cherry picked quotes. However... lol... My “gut” reaction to what some of what I’ve read suggests to me that my interpretation of the events post sale may be closer to the mark (in relation to the discussion between Alex and I). It just doesn’t sound like Lucas’s Sequel Trilogy was working with an image of a Luke as Col. Lurtz, at least not right off the bat where Lucas would be worrying about developing that image for Luke in January of 2013 when they were getting ready for the first movie. I still stand by my theory that the meeting that Bob Iger refers too in his book where they break the news to Lucas about the direction they’re moving, is the January 2013 meeting where Lucas views the Luke image. The fabuloso is just him doing his thing, the only thing he really could do at that point as he was in no way shape or form in any creative control, he was just a consultant as has been said he was all along. He was not involved in day to day stuff, and thus why it was such a shock to him when they dropped the news on him. I am not by any means doing a victory lap. I admit I haven’t read everything, I admit I may be missing information from the book(s) that contradicts my theory. I’m just going by my very superficial and preliminary read of the quotes I’ve seen. There's still a lot left to be revealed, specially about his story treatments. Lucas's brief summary of his sequel trilogy doesn't tell us anything about story/script specifics. I'm reminded of his summaries of the PT back when TPM was about to come out. It was a very macro description of what ended up happening, but still true to what we got. He barely mentions the next generation of protagonists in the book. I would like to point out a couple things though... Things that unfortunately are victims of time and changing narratives. Stormtroopers being clones. Someone in this thread questioned where that theory started. Stormtroopers being clones went as far back as the old Star Wars Fan Club magazine of the 80’s where an article established they were clones. Than in the 90’s, when Hasbro released and restarted the Power Of The Force toyline, the Storntrooper figures bio established them as clones. However, the best evidence of stormtroopers being Clones came in the prequels from Lucas himself. In the AOTC commentary, Lucas points out that he included the scene of Jango Fett bumping his head on the doorway of his ship as an homage to the stormtroopers in the OT constantly bumping their heads. He explains that this trait is passed down to the stormtroopers (as obvious clones of Jango). The reality of course is the stormtroopers bumping their heads in the OT are bloopers caused by the limited vision of the helmets for the actors wearing them, but, Lucas used those moments to humorously tie Jango to the stormtroopers as clones of Jango. During the making of Episode 3, LFL introduced their pay wall service called Hyperspace. One of the features for hyperspace was called “Set Diaries” by Pablo Hidalgo. Yes, that Pablo Hidalgo! In one of the Set Diaries, Hidalgo mentions that he flat out asked Lucas, while on set of ROTS, if the Stormtroopers were Clones, and Lucas said yes they were. Lucas than makes a joke about how some of the Clones are from less desirable stock of regular people that wanted to join the Empire, but, didn’t have the guts to do it themselves so sent clones, so there are a mix of stormtroopers that can and can’t shoot straight because of this. This is an obvious joke alluding to the fans pointing out the storm troopers lack of accuracy. Lastly on the AOTC dvd commentary, there’s Lucas talking about how from the very beginning of Boba Fett’s conception he always had Fett tied to the stormtroopers somehow someway. This is why Fett’s original armor was white and black, as Fett’s armor was that of super commandos that served in the Empires ranks with the stormtroopers. As time went on the narrative shifted and Fett’s armor was than changed. Lucas mentions that by making the stormtroopers clones of Jango and Boba a clone of Jango, he’s fulfilling that narrative he always held in his head of there being a connection between Boba and the Stormies. The stormtroopers and the clones (and by extension Jango and Boba) are still connected. My point was regarding the stormtroopers being clones throughout the OT. The clones had growth acceleration, and the implication was that while the stormtroopers started out as clones, they were eventually phased out as time went on. This is made more explicit in the Star Destroyer shot in ROTS, where by then all the navy personnel are regular people. Than there’s Sifo Dyas. This again seems to be a story/narrative shift away from Lucas’s original thoughts on Count Dooku. Again, coming from Hypersoave and Pablo Hidalgo, it was put forward that in the original script for ROTS there was a scene that laid it out crystal clear how Palpatines plan transpired, kind of one of those villain moments where they gloat over how they beat the good guy. This scene was ultimately cut and never filmed. Hidalgo also mentioned in a Q&A session that we saw, on screen, who ordered the clones. So again, there seems to be a narrative shift over the years if all of a sudden Sifo Dyas is actually a Sith Apprentice. There was a story shift from the beginning. Sifo-Dyas started out as an alias for Sidious himself. Then it evolved to its own character, a Jedi Master that was once part of the Council. I think we are still meant to follow the assumption that Dooku was behind it all, Lucas said as much. The mystery was always if Sifo-Dyas was genuinely involved with the creation of the clones, no matter how small that involvement was, or if his identity was simply taken and used by the Sith for the creation of the clones. I guess the reality is that Sifo-Dyas, since we now know he was serving Sidious as his apprentice, was involved at some level. What's yet to be figured out is the chronology of events. Was Maul promoted to Sith Lord so close to the events of TPM? Was Dooku using his Sith name before he was a Sith? Or was the recruitment of Jango done relatively late in the game? I'm sure there's a logic to it all. |
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Post by mikeximus on Nov 14, 2020 18:01:11 GMT
Out of it for a little while and everyone is having delusions of grandeur ... I have been so incredibly busy the last few months. These forums have always been in the back of my mind as an itch needing to be scratched. Knowing that there was some discussion about something that I left off at here that I needed to eventually get back too, but the days have turned to weeks and than to months so it seems. But when this news of the Lucas Sequel Trilogy information dropped, I had to come here to see what was being said. I think... I am going to hold off on my in depth... official... opinion on the new information until I can grab the book(s) myself. I want to make sure that I get proper context and am not falling into someone else’s bias with cherry picked quotes. However... lol... My “gut” reaction to what some of what I’ve read suggests to me that my interpretation of the events post sale may be closer to the mark (in relation to the discussion between Alex and I). It just doesn’t sound like Lucas’s Sequel Trilogy was working with an image of a Luke as Col. Lurtz, at least not right off the bat where Lucas would be worrying about developing that image for Luke in January of 2013 when they were getting ready for the first movie. I still stand by my theory that the meeting that Bob Iger refers too in his book where they break the news to Lucas about the direction they’re moving, is the January 2013 meeting where Lucas views the Luke image. The fabuloso is just him doing his thing, the only thing he really could do at that point as he was in no way shape or form in any creative control, he was just a consultant as has been said he was all along. He was not involved in day to day stuff, and thus why it was such a shock to him when they dropped the news on him. I am not by any means doing a victory lap. I admit I haven’t read everything, I admit I may be missing information from the book(s) that contradicts my theory. I’m just going by my very superficial and preliminary read of the quotes I’ve seen. There's still a lot left to be revealed, specially about his story treatments. Lucas's brief summary of his sequel trilogy doesn't tell us anything about story/script specifics. I'm reminded of his summaries of the PT back when TPM was about to come out. It was a very macro description of what ended up happening, but still true to what we got. He barely mentions the next generation of protagonists in the book. Umm.. ok? I'm really not trying to be flippant here, but what is your point? I did say that I wasn't taking a victory lap. None of what you just said above has stopped you yourself from developing your own theories on the circumstances of what happened after the sale. That's why I am not understanding your point. I thought it was pretty well understood that we are both throwing our theories out there with whatever evidence with think may support our theory. Even with that said, Lucas said in one of the above quotes that his trilogy would start with Luke just starting to rebuild the Jedi. That does not sound like they would be at the point for the first movie of a col Lurtz type movie where Lucas is trying to nail down the look for a distraught Luke betrayed by one of his parents. As to your point of TPM, Lucas wasn't trying to nail down the look of Anakin in AOTC or ROTS while developing TPM. Let's not forget that the artist said this was a Luke in exile, betrayed by one of his students. The artist never says it was a Lucas idea, only says the idea predated was a late 2012 idea that predated Johnson and Abrams. Abrams is on record saying the treatments were trashed BEFORE he came on board. If Lucas is in creative control of Star Wars in November and December, than he is clearly working on his first movie which he states STARTS with Luke trying to restart the Jedi. That would not be a dark, depressed, exiled, betrayed Luke that would be visually based off of Col Kurtz. To me, again, it sounds like the sale happens, Lucas instantly is not in creative control anymore because Disney owns Star Wars, not him. He is instantly not the creative force or drive behind Star Wars, Disney is, as Iger has been on record as saying many times before would happen. Lucas steps back believing he has made the right choice, and Disney is moving forward with his treatments as a starting point. November goes by, December goes by, and maybe Lucas gets tidbits of info from LFL. In reality what has happened is Kennedy and Iger have already exerted Disney's control of the story, and threw out the treatments sometime in November of December and started working on their own story. This fits in with what Abrams has said, the treatments were trashed before he got there. Remember, Abrams was just the director for a long time, not a writer. They would not need him in order to move forward on the story. They were already working with Arndt to write the Disney Star Wars sequel trilogy before Abrams was there. Than in January they decide to update Lucas as a courtesy, and this is where they "accidentally" blind side Lucas with the reality they trashed his treatments. This is the meeting where Iger regrets not breaking it to Lucas more softly as per his book. Too me, that Col Kurtz is part of the Disney Star Wars post Lucas treatments, that they take to Lucas as an update in January of 2013. They explain to Lucas where they are, what they have done. As a "remember the good ole days" type gesture he stamps the picture fabulous because I am sure he genuinely likes it for what it is. This is where the break up starts to happen.. I would like to point out a couple things though... Things that unfortunately are victims of time and changing narratives. Stormtroopers being clones. Someone in this thread questioned where that theory started. Stormtroopers being clones went as far back as the old Star Wars Fan Club magazine of the 80’s where an article established they were clones. Than in the 90’s, when Hasbro released and restarted the Power Of The Force toyline, the Storntrooper figures bio established them as clones. However, the best evidence of stormtroopers being Clones came in the prequels from Lucas himself. In the AOTC commentary, Lucas points out that he included the scene of Jango Fett bumping his head on the doorway of his ship as an homage to the stormtroopers in the OT constantly bumping their heads. He explains that this trait is passed down to the stormtroopers (as obvious clones of Jango). The reality of course is the stormtroopers bumping their heads in the OT are bloopers caused by the limited vision of the helmets for the actors wearing them, but, Lucas used those moments to humorously tie Jango to the stormtroopers as clones of Jango. During the making of Episode 3, LFL introduced their pay wall service called Hyperspace. One of the features for hyperspace was called “Set Diaries” by Pablo Hidalgo. Yes, that Pablo Hidalgo! In one of the Set Diaries, Hidalgo mentions that he flat out asked Lucas, while on set of ROTS, if the Stormtroopers were Clones, and Lucas said yes they were. Lucas than makes a joke about how some of the Clones are from less desirable stock of regular people that wanted to join the Empire, but, didn’t have the guts to do it themselves so sent clones, so there are a mix of stormtroopers that can and can’t shoot straight because of this. This is an obvious joke alluding to the fans pointing out the storm troopers lack of accuracy. Lastly on the AOTC dvd commentary, there’s Lucas talking about how from the very beginning of Boba Fett’s conception he always had Fett tied to the stormtroopers somehow someway. This is why Fett’s original armor was white and black, as Fett’s armor was that of super commandos that served in the Empires ranks with the stormtroopers. As time went on the narrative shifted and Fett’s armor was than changed. Lucas mentions that by making the stormtroopers clones of Jango and Boba a clone of Jango, he’s fulfilling that narrative he always held in his head of there being a connection between Boba and the Stormies. The stormtroopers and the clones (and by extension Jango and Boba) are still connected. My point was regarding the stormtroopers being clones throughout the OT. The clones had growth acceleration, and the implication was that while the stormtroopers started out as clones, they were eventually phased out as time went on. This is made more explicit in the Star Destroyer shot in ROTS, where by then all the navy personnel are regular people. Well, you're really not arguing with me, you're arguing with Lucas. Lucas said he had the scene of Jango bumping his head as an homage to the stromtroopers in the OT.. yes, that OT, that bumped their heads, as being a trait that is passed on to them from Jango.. because they are clones, clones of Jango, in the OT, in ANH. When does the phase out begin? ESB? ROTJ? So after almost 20 years, the empire decides to phase them out, for reasons? The growth acceleration thing always bugs me when people bring it up. The cloners say they have growth acceleration so they can grow the clone in half the time. They never mention that it is permanent function. If they could program the DNA to speed up, they could certainly program DNA to slow down. Obviously again at some point, Lucas had a thought and a narrative change that he never fleshed out. But we don't need to do mental gymnastics in order to try and cram that narrative change into working just because Lucas had an idea and never followed up on it. As for the navy personnel in ROTS. It is never established prior to that, that those persons were ever anything but regular people. Than there’s Sifo Dyas. This again seems to be a story/narrative shift away from Lucas’s original thoughts on Count Dooku. Again, coming from Hypersoave and Pablo Hidalgo, it was put forward that in the original script for ROTS there was a scene that laid it out crystal clear how Palpatines plan transpired, kind of one of those villain moments where they gloat over how they beat the good guy. This scene was ultimately cut and never filmed. Hidalgo also mentioned in a Q&A session that we saw, on screen, who ordered the clones. So again, there seems to be a narrative shift over the years if all of a sudden Sifo Dyas is actually a Sith Apprentice. There was a story shift from the beginning. Sifo-Dyas started out as an alias for Sidious himself. Then it evolved to its own character, a Jedi Master that was once part of the Council. I think we are still meant to follow the assumption that Dooku was behind it all, Lucas said as much. The mystery was always if Sifo-Dyas was genuinely involved with the creation of the clones, no matter how small that involvement was, or if his identity was simply taken and used by the Sith for the creation of the clones. I guess the reality is that Sifo-Dyas, since we now know he was serving Sidious as his apprentice, was involved at some level. What's yet to be figured out is the chronology of events. Was Maul promoted to Sith Lord so close to the events of TPM? Was Dooku using his Sith name before he was a Sith? Or was the recruitment of Jango done relatively late in the game? The story shift from DOoku doing the ordering to an actual Jedi Master named Sifo Dyas was done by The Clone Wars. Where, under Lucas owned LFL, The Clone Wars were not on the same level of cannon as the movies because it was clear Lucas was not involved as deeply in the day to day operations as many fans hoped or thought he was. Filoni has said as much himself many times. Lucas, in his new quotes, contradicts the Sifo Dyas story that was setup under LFL when he owned it. |
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Post by Subtext Mining on Nov 14, 2020 18:15:25 GMT
What I'm wondering is; was Sifo-Dyas' vision of a future war genuine, or was he just saying that because creating an army was just part of Palpatine's plan?
Did Dooku kill him because Palpatine asked him to, or because he wanted to take his place?
Who deleted Kamino from the archive memory?
Sifo-Dyas is my favorite Jedi, I'm trying to figure out if this makes me like him more or less?
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Post by Alexrd on Nov 14, 2020 19:25:25 GMT
Umm.. ok? I'm really not trying to be flippant here, but what is your point? I did say that I wasn't taking a victory lap. None of what you just said above has stopped you yourself from developing your own theories on the circumstances of what happened after the sale. That's why I am not understanding your point. I thought it was pretty well understood that we are both throwing our theories out there with whatever evidence with think may support our theory. I'm saying that what Lucas has revealed here doesn't necessarily contradict what had been previously revealed. One is a macro description of what happened after ROTJ, the other is the specific story about Episode VII. If you're arguing that the Episode VII details that had been previously revealed are a compromised version of the story, I don't necessarily disagree. It's possible. I simply wouldn't jump to that conclusion right away. As to your point of TPM, Lucas wasn't trying to nail down the look of Anakin in AOTC or ROTS while developing TPM. Let's not forget that the artist said this was a Luke in exile, betrayed by one of his students. The artist never says it was a Lucas idea, only says the idea predated was a late 2012 idea that predated Johnson and Abrams. Abrams is on record saying the treatments were trashed BEFORE he came on board. If Lucas is in creative control of Star Wars in November and December, than he is clearly working on his first movie which he states STARTS with Luke trying to restart the Jedi. That would not be a dark, depressed, exiled, betrayed Luke that would be visually based off of Col Kurtz. To me, again, it sounds like the sale happens, Lucas instantly is not in creative control anymore because Disney owns Star Wars, not him. He is instantly not the creative force or drive behind Star Wars, Disney is, as Iger has been on record as saying many times before would happen. Lucas steps back believing he has made the right choice, and Disney is moving forward with his treatments as a starting point. November goes by, December goes by, and maybe Lucas gets tidbits of info from LFL. In reality what has happened is Kennedy and Iger have already exerted Disney's control of the story, and threw out the treatments sometime in November of December and started working on their own story. This fits in with what Abrams has said, the treatments were trashed before he got there. Remember, Abrams was just the director for a long time, not a writer. They would not need him in order to move forward on the story. They were already working with Arndt to write the Disney Star Wars sequel trilogy before Abrams was there. Than in January they decide to update Lucas as a courtesy, and this is where they "accidentally" blind side Lucas with the reality they trashed his treatments. This is the meeting where Iger regrets not breaking it to Lucas more softly as per his book. Too me, that Col Kurtz is part of the Disney Star Wars post Lucas treatments, that they take to Lucas as an update in January of 2013. They explain to Lucas where they are, what they have done. As a "remember the good ole days" type gesture he stamps the picture fabulous because I am sure he genuinely likes it for what it is. This is where the break up starts to happen.. That's a possibility, but how would the artists know that Lucas would be in that meeting to give his stamp of approval? Doug Chiang implication was that he approached the designs with Lucas's preferences in mind. Well, you're really not arguing with me, you're arguing with Lucas. Lucas said he had the scene of Jango bumping his head as an homage to the stromtroopers in the OT.. yes, that OT, that bumped their heads, as being a trait that is passed on to them from Jango.. because they are clones, clones of Jango, in the OT, in ANH. When does the phase out begin? ESB? ROTJ? So after almost 20 years, the empire decides to phase them out, for reasons? I'm not arguing with Lucas. Lucas confirmed my interpretation. What I don't take is Lucas's visual gag to the letter. The Fett > Clone > Stormtrooper connection remains, even if by the time of the OT they are not clones. It's a visual/thematic motif. The growth acceleration thing always bugs me when people bring it up. The cloners say they have growth acceleration so they can grow the clone in half the time. They never mention that it is permanent function. They don't mention that it's not permanent. What's stated is that they have growth acceleration which means they age faster, so that's the information I go with. Besides, there's plenty of indicators that they are not clones in the OT. Entirely different heights, different voices, etc... Obviously again at some point, Lucas had a thought and a narrative change that he never fleshed out. But we don't need to do mental gymnastics in order to try and cram that narrative change into working just because Lucas had an idea and never followed up on it. I would only need mental gymnastics if Lucas had just said that the stormtroopers in the OT were clones. As for the navy personnel in ROTS. It is never established prior to that, that those persons were ever anything but regular people. So the navy specifically is made of regular people and everything else is made of clones because...? The story shift from DOoku doing the ordering to an actual Jedi Master named Sifo Dyas was done by The Clone Wars. Where, under Lucas owned LFL, The Clone Wars were not on the same level of cannon as the movies because it was clear Lucas was not involved as deeply in the day to day operations as many fans hoped or thought he was. Filoni has said as much himself many times. Lucas, in his new quotes, contradicts the Sifo Dyas story that was setup under LFL when he owned it. The Clone Wars was at the same level as the movies, Lucas himself said as much. They were the only released canon. TCW was not from Licensing, it was not EU. Same thing with Underworld had it been released. And Lucas was deeply involved. Virtually all the storylines came from him and he had final say over the episodes. Lucas doesn't necessarily contradict the Sifo-Dyas story that was set up, he specifically mentions it and reveals something that hadn't been revealed yet. After all, the story of the episode came from him. What I'm wondering is; was Sifo-Dyas' vision of a future war genuine, or was he just saying that because creating an army was just part of Palpatine's plan? Now that we know he was with Sidious, there's definitely a strong possibility that it was part of Palpatine's plan. And personally, it's more believable than Sidious taking advantage of a Jedi who coincidentally had a vision of the future and happened to have the defiance to take the same step he was planning to take. |
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Post by thephantomcalamari on Nov 14, 2020 19:27:05 GMT
The story shift from DOoku doing the ordering to an actual Jedi Master named Sifo Dyas was done by The Clone Wars. Where, under Lucas owned LFL, The Clone Wars were not on the same level of cannon as the movies because it was clear Lucas was not involved as deeply in the day to day operations as many fans hoped or thought he was. Filoni has said as much himself many times. Lucas, in his new quotes, contradicts the Sifo Dyas story that was setup under LFL when he owned it. Not exactly sure what you mean by this. Here's Dave Filoni himself: And here's Lucas: This is consistent with everything else we've seen and heard over the years when it comes to TCW's production. I don't know where you got some other impression. Did Dooku kill him because Palpatine asked him to, or because he wanted to take his place? IIRC, Silman says something about Dooku wanting to "become" Sifo-Dyas. At the time, I assumed that was a reference to Dooku wanting to assume Sifo-Dyas's identity to place the order. But now, it seems like it could be a reference to Dooku wanting to take Sifo-Dyas's place as Sidious's apprentice. With this new information, my feeling is that Dooku may have done it on his own initiative. The mere fact of his success would be all the permission he'd need. He'd be the more worthy servant. Before I always assumed it was Dooku. Impossible to say now. Could be either one of them, I guess. We now know they were in cahoots, so it's a bit of a moot point anyway. |
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Post by Subtext Mining on Nov 14, 2020 22:58:14 GMT
What I'm wondering is; was Sifo-Dyas' vision of a future war genuine, or was he just saying that because creating an army was just part of Palpatine's plan? Now that we know he was with Sidious, there's definitely a strong possibility that it was part of Palpatine's plan. And personally, it's more believable than Sidious taking advantage of a Jedi who coincidentally had a vision of the future and happened to have the defiance to take the same step he was planning to take.  But, just for kicks, to draw from your favorite book   Darth Plagueis, Sifo-Dyas had the vision then mentioned it to Dooku, who mentioned to Palpatine who then met with Sifo-Dyas and talked with him about it a couple times, mentioning the Kaminoans in the discussion - planting the idea in his head. |
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Post by Cryogenic on Nov 15, 2020 2:50:54 GMT
Out of it for a little while and everyone is having delusions of grandeur LOL! Exactly. Things are quiet for a while and then BOOM. I know the feeling. Even though I've had a lot of free time recently, there are still threads I have been meaning to get to on here. But yes, this latest development is the perfect excuse to dive back in for a few days.  Fair enough. Isolated quotes can be misleading. Even when people may not have a particular agenda, just having fragments supplied by one party or another can still lend the wrong impression. Sometimes, it's because our imaginations fill in the blanks or we start conjecturing and maybe go down a fanciful path; other times, ambiguous wording or a poorly-worded sentence might be enough to send us on a wild bantha chase! And I think Disney are thriving on that at the moment. A prolonged information blackout will naturally cause us to latch onto any new scrap that comes out and run six ways to Sunday with it. Nevertheless, I do think you are more astute in identifying cracks here than just about anyone. Something doesn't add up with the "Colonel Kurtz" thing, indeed... However... lol... My “gut” reaction to what some of what I’ve read suggests to me that my interpretation of the events post sale may be closer to the mark (in relation to the discussion between Alex and I). It just doesn’t sound like Lucas’s Sequel Trilogy was working with an image of a Luke as Col. [Kurtz], at least not right off the bat where Lucas would be worrying about developing that image for Luke in January of 2013 when they were getting ready for the first movie. I still stand by my theory that the meeting that Bob Iger refers too in his book where they break the news to Lucas about the direction they’re moving, is the January 2013 meeting where Lucas views the Luke image. The fabuloso is just him doing his thing, the only thing he really could do at that point as he was in no way shape or form in any creative control, he was just a consultant as has been said he was all along. He was not involved in day to day stuff, and thus why it was such a shock to him when they dropped the news on him. If Lucas is in creative control of Star Wars in November and December, than he is clearly working on his first movie which he states STARTS with Luke trying to restart the Jedi. That would not be a dark, depressed, exiled, betrayed Luke that would be visually based off of Col Kurtz. To me, again, it sounds like the sale happens, Lucas instantly is not in creative control anymore because Disney owns Star Wars, not him. He is instantly not the creative force or drive behind Star Wars, Disney is, as Iger has been on record as saying many times before would happen. Lucas steps back believing he has made the right choice, and Disney is moving forward with his treatments as a starting point. November goes by, December goes by, and maybe Lucas gets tidbits of info from LFL. In reality what has happened is Kennedy and Iger have already exerted Disney's control of the story, and threw out the treatments sometime in November of December and started working on their own story. This fits in with what Abrams has said, the treatments were trashed before he got there. Remember, Abrams was just the director for a long time, not a writer. They would not need him in order to move forward on the story. They were already working with Arndt to write the Disney Star Wars sequel trilogy before Abrams was there. Than in January they decide to update Lucas as a courtesy, and this is where they "accidentally" blind side Lucas with the reality they trashed his treatments. This is the meeting where Iger regrets not breaking it to Lucas more softly as per his book. Your reading makes sense for a number of reasons: 1) Doesn't it strike anyone else as suspicious that the "Luke hiding in a cave" thing is basically the only thing from that art meeting that superficially conforms with what we've been led to believe are Lucas' authentic sequel ideas? 2) As you've said, Mike: The wording in that tweet from Phil Szostak is strangely vague and doesn't pin the description of Luke on anyone in particular: By the way: Twitter is saying that tweet is no longer available. Now, yes, it might appear to show up in the quote (as of this writing), but that is because I have manually copied the text from an archive link, and the Instagram picture link with caption (separate to the original tweet) still works. Luckily, there is a cached version presently available on Google (which is where I grabbed the text from). Due to technical issues with this message board software, however, I had to manually change the word "twitter" in the cached link to "glitter" (because the software here kept trying to turn the link into a preview/thumbnail for some reason). Yet even with that alteration, it still works. You can literally change the "twitter" part to "poop.com" if you want. The Google cache system recognises the link and returns the same result. This message board software just likes being awkward. What is it, by the way, with these Disney/LFL people constantly removing their tweets (especially, it seems to me, when it's to do with the development of the Sequel Trilogy)? Let me be clear about this before moving on: The original Instagram link is still available and works just fine. The picture and caption are from Christian Alzmann. But Phil Szostak is the one that brought the Instagram link into wider awareness on Twitter, and for some reason, his tweet has been removed. I feel that should be noted because Szostak bills himself on his Twitter account thusly: "Lucasfilm creative art manager & author of @abramsbooks' The Art of The Force Awakens, The Last Jedi, Solo: A SW Story, The Rise of Skywalker & The Mandalorian." It's strange that it wouldn't be there any longer. His other tweets (he tweeted in multiple parts) are still available. 3) Another piece of critical information is this article which contains several important details. I have pulled that link straight from my TFN post from Jan 2016 (you may remember the discussion, Mike): WOW -- look at all those people not named George Lucas. So let's review: - "Around Christmastime 2012", a bunch of LFL people get together to brainstorm for a month and to create "the framework" for the ST movies and initial spinoffs. - "The previous six movies [and TCW]" are used as "official canon", but not the Expanded Universe. Note the lack of Lucas' treatments being mentioned here. - The dynamic is described as "like a TV writers room... knowing many of the main characters from the original trilogy, but not knowing where their story may go."
- "There were millions of things that [they] bounced around and abandoned." Why all this exploring and bouncing around if they were working from outlines? - They allegedly "removed [themselves] from everything else" with an analogy made to summer camp, like they were totally making it all up as they went. And last, but not least: - "Surprisingly, Lucas never made a cameo." Straight from the horse's ass. No Lucas during this critical story-building period. ----------------------------------------------- One other interesting detail in the above is how they started off at Skywalker Ranch in the first week, and then apparently switched to other locations thereafter: "The first session lasted a week, with days typically beginning with a group breakfast at the Inn at Skywalker Ranch and wrapping around 5 p.m... The group continued to meet in the Bay Area over the weeks that followed, sometimes at Skywalker Ranch and other times at Big Rock or an office at Industrial Light & Magic's campus in the Presidio neighborhood of San Francisco."I'm not sure if that holds any special significance, but it's at the end of the latter description (the transition to other locations) where the revelation that "Lucas never made a cameo" comes in. This may be a reed-thin detail to hang a theory on, but what if Lucas either got wind of what they were doing after that first week, or Kennedy knew that continuing to meet solely at Skywalker Ranch (a property Lucas still owns and never sold to Disney) would become increasingly problematic, so they decided to hoof it to other locations? Why did the location suddenly change? The article makes a point of indicating they were served "organic herbs and vegetables from Skywalker Ranch's garden" from a team trained by "world-renowned chef Alice Waters". It sounds like they had the perfect location and were being treated like royalty. It also sounds like that didn't last long. Did something occur here that created friction and prompted them to start meeting at locations other than (or in addition to) Skywalker Ranch? EDIT: Indeed, I noticed that Mike scooped me on this detail back in January with the following cogent observation (in relation to a different article I'm about to mention): Another very important thing to remember is that LFL was no longer at Skywalker Ranch. Lucas moved LFL to San Francisco in 2005. So Lucas isn't waking up, grabbing a cup of coffee and within 10 minutes he's in the middle of LFL. LFL is in San Fran, and he is almost certainly not making the commute daily. It definitely sounds like they wanted to remove themselves from Lucas' direct influence and oversight. By departing the ranch for other locations in San Francisco, Lucas couldn't easily tarry over to their meeting area(s) and take them by surprise. They gave themselves a bit of cover -- and seemingly bought a bit of time -- as they continued to hash out their own ideas for the Sequel Trilogy, without yet causing a ruckus by having Lucas accidentally discover what they were doing. This might sound a bit conspiratorial and Machiavellian, but I wouldn't put it past them. Not least because (as you pointed out, Mike) Bob Iger described Lucas being caught by surprise when he learned they were no longer using his stories. So there is certainly good reason to doubt the idea that Lucas' outlines/treatments were still in play by the time he supposedly gave his stamp of approval to that artwork involving Luke and the Jedi Temple he retreated to in January 2013. Heck, it could even be an in-joke from Lucas, who himself "vanished" around that same time, largely retreating to Skywalker Ranch and his other projects (the Lucas Museum of Narrative Art, experimental short films, etc.), leaving the Star Wars "galaxy" to take care of itself under new management, after he (in his mind, at least) had essentially been betrayed by his "new generation of Jedi", including Kylo Ren Kathleen Ken(nedy). Hey, it fits about as much as any other reading, right now... But seriously: It seems that Lucas was maybe too trusting and naive during this period. He was clearly not involved in the day-to-day operations of LFL anymore, and he could easily have been blindsided. His hands-off approach allowed them to get away with their deceit for a while. 4) A second article from my previously-mentioned TFN post also makes for fascinating reading (or re-reading as the case may be). This one is considerably longer than the former (in fact, it's multi-part), so I'll just quote the first part: EDIT: My apologies, Mike. I was going back over the thread and I see that you referred to this article yourself back in January. It seems you and I are in complete agreement on this one. It paints a strong picture that Lucas' treatments had already been ditched. To quote you directly from your January post, Mike: So during Kennedy's courtship of Abrams, in December 2012 and January 2013, she is clearly telling Abrams that Luke' story is still an open book, and he loved that idea. Again, no mention of Lucas here. Again, very important to note that this is when Kennedy is trying to convince Abrams to do episode 7. So this is Dec 2012 and January 2013. If she is telling Abrams that basically Luke's story is still in play, than how can Lucas and his treatments still being worked on? Indeed -- a highly pertinent question. Kennedy: Who is Luke Skywalker? Mike and Cryo: Where are Lucas' treatments? I haven't gone quite as highlight-crazy with this second article, but it still contains some interesting bits that resonate with all those details in the first. With this second article, we have (as Mike indicated) the revelation that Kennedy used the lure of "Who is Luke Skywalker?" to draw talent to the project -- or, at least, to draw J.J. Abrams to the project. It's unclear if that question is some sort of koan/carrot derived from Lucas' outlines/treatments, or something Kennedy made up herself, presumably after some initial brainstorming with other LFL creatives as a lure. I'm prepared to give her the benefit of the doubt on this. It probably came from Lucas (in part), and maybe his outlines, but that doesn't mean they were using the outlines at that time. It might be the proverbial "golden nugget" that remained -- with all the details (if the outlines were basically already scrapped) remaining to be decided. In Abrams' own words: "They had just been hypothesizing and throwing out a bunch of what-ifs, but there was no story in place". Which is consistent with the idea they were already brainstorming their own trilogy before Abrams came onboard in January, which matches up with the previous article where they were spitballing all manner of ideas in a summer-camp environment, not beholden to anything but the basic canon of the former six films and TCW, hashing out a story framework independent of Lucas, who "never made a cameo". In other words, it sounds like Lucas was out of the picture before January 2013, and as you've said: any involvement beyond that point was essentially ceremonial only. It's worth noting in all this that they tried to imply Lucas was happily giving TFA his personal blessing by attending both premieres (in Los Angeles and London), even though he had to be cajoled into attending by Kathleen Kennedy and his wife Mellody Hobson. On the "clones as stormtroopers" issue: The stormtroopers and the clones (and by extension Jango and Boba) are still connected. My point was regarding the stormtroopers being clones throughout the OT. The clones had growth acceleration, and the implication was that while the stormtroopers started out as clones, they were eventually phased out as time went on. This is made more explicit in the Star Destroyer shot in ROTS, where by then all the navy personnel are regular people. Well, you're really not arguing with me, you're arguing with Lucas. Lucas said he had the scene of Jango bumping his head as an homage to the stromtroopers in the OT.. yes, that OT, that bumped their heads, as being a trait that is passed on to them from Jango.. because they are clones, clones of Jango, in the OT, in ANH. When does the phase out begin? ESB? ROTJ? So after almost 20 years, the empire decides to phase them out, for reasons? This reading makes a lot of sense. I like the idea it's a trait that's passed on. However, it could also simply be poor helmet visibility -- poor enough that even a skilled mercenary like Jango occasionally gets caught out. Nevertheless, Star Wars does like to imply that traits of this sort of highly heritable. True. Growth acceleration was presumably used to get enough clones ready in time for Palpatine's "emergency powers" act (not that the Kaminoans had to know about this, of course), and Boba notably had no growth acceleration. But then, if the majority of the clones weren't growth-accelerated, that would also be very costly and waste a lot of resources (feeding, sanitation, providing living quarters, working-out areas, etc.). Mental gymnastics are fun, though! I've long seen the stormtroopers as an admixture of clones and "regular" people. I like the idea that clones were in the process of being phased out, but not completely abandoned. To me, that fits the somewhat "beat up" and ramshackle world of the OT best. Yes, I agree with you on this point. I don't think a direct equivalence can be drawn between an imperial navy, which is implied to be a fairly exclusive organisation that takes a lot of skill and dedication to join (Luke mentions wanting to join the Imperial Academy to his aunt and uncle, and also discusses it with Biggs, in a deleted scene), and then what is essentially an infantry army. However, I see why Alex would view it that way. Once the ruse of the Clone Wars is over, we see the beginnings of an actual navy at the end of the PT, implying that people have become more willing to join and fight for the Republic/Empire. Presumably, this carries over into the cop/enforcer level as a change gradually occurs from clone troopers to stormtroopers. |
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Post by mikeximus on Nov 16, 2020 4:14:15 GMT
The story shift from DOoku doing the ordering to an actual Jedi Master named Sifo Dyas was done by The Clone Wars. Where, under Lucas owned LFL, The Clone Wars were not on the same level of cannon as the movies because it was clear Lucas was not involved as deeply in the day to day operations as many fans hoped or thought he was. Filoni has said as much himself many times. Lucas, in his new quotes, contradicts the Sifo Dyas story that was setup under LFL when he owned it. Not exactly sure what you mean by this. Here's Dave Filoni himself: And here's Lucas: This is consistent with everything else we've seen and heard over the years when it comes to TCW's production. I don't know where you got some other impression. What do I mean? Exactly what I said. Lucas was not involved with the show on the day to day level that so many fans want to believe he was. If Lucas wanted to write the stories, he would have written them. Instead he hired others to write them. If Lucas wanted to direct the shows, he would have directed them, instead he hired Filoni to direct them. Lucas isn't even named producer of the series, he is named "Executive Producer". It is clear that Lucas was not involved in the day to day functions of The Clone Wars, because he hired other people to do the day to day work. Filoni has said, time and again, that Lucas gave the "broad beats" of the stories, after that it was left up to the people that Lucas hired, Filoni and the writers to do their job and write the stories, edit, animate ec etc etc. Lucas was not sitting there everyday going over the details of the stories with the writers, he was not editing the show, etc etc. He hired people to do that stuff because he didn't want too. There are numerous quotes from Filoni and the writers on how the show specifically operated. Lucas would give a general idea of a story he wanted them to cover, some "broad story beats" and than it was left up to the group to do everything else while Lucas picked out his next flannel. Lucas did not want to write, he did not want to direct, he did not want to sit in on the show on a daily basis and make decisions on every piece of dialogue and story beat, that is why he hired writers and Filoni. There are specific examples of this. When Lucas was looking to retire, he told Filoni he wanted to lock down the Sifo Dyas story... As Filoni himself explains it, after this, he and the Clone Wars staff are sitting there in front of a white board trying to figure out the timeline of events for the ordering of the clones. They were stumped, they couldn't figure it out... So who did they go to to help them? Hidalgo, Chee, Witwer.. Not Lucas. Why? Because Lucas was not involved to the point where he wanted to sit and figure out timelines. He wasn't there helping them figure it out. That was Filoni's job to figure out. Lucas wasn't around for them to call with every question they had about Star Wars, Lucas wasn't interested in having to baby sit them. Fans want to believe that everything in The Clone Wars came from Lucas, it did not. Were there times when Lucas was more involved in the process than others. Sure there was. I know the Mortis Arc really interested Lucas, so he was pretty involved in those episodes, even drawing up the Force Creatures that Anakin controls. However, the vast majority of it was filled in by writers and by Filoni, based off just general ideas that Lucas said he wanted to see done. Furthermore, when Lucas owned LFL, the show was not at the same level of Canon as the Movies. This is a 100% fact. The show was not brought into the same level of canon as the movies until the sale of LFL to Disney when at the same time Disney wiped out the EU. Under Lucas owned LFL, The Clone Wars show was considered "T" Level canon, which was below "G" level canon, which was George level or the 6 movies. However, the 'T" level was still above the "C" level which was the old EU stuff. This was because while Lucas oversaw the show, contributed heavily to the shows basic structures and plots, there was no way Lucas was ever going to be bound to what other writers wrote in that show, about Star Wars if he ever made more movies. So the quote you provided where Filoni uses ESB and ROTJ as examples. Do you understand what Filoni is trying to say there? Filoni is sayin Lucas was not involved in the day to day decision making. Why is ESB used as a club to hammer Lucas fans? Because it's hailed as the best Star Wars movie, and the one they (wrongly suggest) that Lucas was involved in the least . He didn't write it, he didn't direct it, he didn't edit it etc etc etc. While I am not saying Filoni was trying to insult Lucas, what Filoni is saying is that just like ESB and ROTJ, Lucas supplies the general story, but, he doesn't write it, he doesn't direct it, he doesn't edit it etc etc etc. He is not involved day to day. Other people are doing that. Now the problem is we know that this belief of ESB and ROTJ are wrong. Lucas did write ESB after Leigh Brackett died and before handing it off to Kasdan. Lucas scrapped much of the Brackett draft and rewrote it. While Kershner directed ESB, Lucas was often on set or on site, and when he wasn't he was putting together the rest of LFL to start post work on ESB. We know that Marqund in the years after ROTJ has complained that Lucas was really the one that directed ROTJ, as he often stepped in and took over while Marquand was there, which left Marquand with a bit of a sourness for the whole experience. Than there's this quote you provided: Now.. you have provided a perfect example of what I am talking about. You so badly want TCW to matter as part of Lucas's vision, you have completely misread that quote! You ignored the question that was asked, and ignored the rest of Lucas's answer to concentrate on the part that says " I don’t make a distinction between the series and the films." in order to add your own context to it and ignore the context of everything else that Lucas said. First of all, this is the question that was supplied as to what Lucas was responding: The question has nothing to do with whether Lucas believes the TCW show is at the same level of continuity as his movies. It's a question on the quality of the show. Furthermore, here is Lucas's complete answer: Clearly, with the entire context of his complete answer in place, we see Lucas is not talking about whether he sees a difference in canon (for lack of a better word) between his movies and TCW. He is simply talking about how he does not approach making the show any different than he would making a movie. He does not make a distinction between the two mediums that they fall in. This has nothing to do with Lucas sayign that he believes the show exists at the same level of continuity or canon as his movies. |
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Post by thephantomcalamari on Nov 16, 2020 6:20:03 GMT
Not exactly sure what you mean by this. Here's Dave Filoni himself: And here's Lucas: This is consistent with everything else we've seen and heard over the years when it comes to TCW's production. I don't know where you got some other impression. What do I mean? Exactly what I said. Lucas was not involved with the show on the day to day level that so many fans want to believe he was. Who's saying he was, dude? No one here, as far as I can tell. Paging Empire and Jedi.... You missed this part: Not sure why you're going on about Filoni coming up with the Sifo-Dyas backstory. Who cares if he did or didn't (you haven't proved he did, for the record)? Lucas approved it, and he definitively gives his view on the matter in the new book we're discussing. Also, there are quotes from Filoni where he says Lucas did in fact come up with the stories, approve and/or request changes to unfinished animation, edit scripts, and even call in during the middle of recording sessions to request changes to individual lines. Yes, he was less involved than he was on the films. But he was still the creative genesis of the storytelling and the filter through which everything had to pass before it made it onto the screen, just like always. You're trying to make it seem like Filoni and the crew just made all kinds of major decisions about the lore and Lucas wasn't even involved. That's obviously not true. That just about covers it, I think. |
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Post by mikeximus on Nov 16, 2020 15:25:12 GMT
What do I mean? Exactly what I said. Lucas was not involved with the show on the day to day level that so many fans want to believe he was. Who's saying he was, dude? No one here, as far as I can tell. Well dude, is there a panel of dudes that I need to kneel before if I want to make any kind of point? Dude, do I need your permission in order to make a point I want to make, regardless of anyone else talking about it? Why does it seem to bother you? You seemed to take offense to it... In a group of people that hang on Lucas's every word as gospel, there is no way to tell, unless explicitly mentioned somewhere by him or Filoni, where Lucas's thoughts on the storylines for TCW are. What are his, what are writers, what are Filonis... Paging Empire and Jedi.... And that page would not be answered because he was very much involved in the writing processes of Empire and Jedi, and he pretty much directed ROTJ. You are making a false equivalence just as Filoni did. You missed this part: Not sure why you're going on about Filoni coming up with the Sifo-Dyas backstory. Who cares if he did or didn't (you haven't proved he did, for the record)? Lucas approved it, and he definitively gives his view on the matter in the new book we're discussing. It was an specific example to show that much of the story is probably not Lucas's story. It was filled in by others. Can you tell me what aspects of Sifo Dyas's TCW story is Lucas or Filoni or some writer you never heard of? Can you tell me what aspect of Obi Wan's Love story comes from Lucas, or Filoni, or some writer you never heard of. Again, in a group of people here that take Lucas's word as gospel truth, what gospel truth is there in TCW? What parts are gospel truth? This is the fundamental problem with TCW. Even Alexrd has admitted to this problem in a round about way. Alexrd has admitted in many conversations that Filoni's personal views of the Jedi have driven much of the storylines of how the Jedi are at fault in what happened during the events of the Prequels, and how Filoni's personal views of the Jedi don't seem to match up with Lucas's. Something I very much agree with Alex about. Lucas allowed it to go through, but, does that mean it is where he personally stands on the Jedi? Or was he allowing Filoni creative freedom? And let's look at the quote you provided.. Filoni said, it "probably" wouldn't happen. Seems a like a bit of wiggle room there. Why? Because Lucas gave Filoni and the people doing TCW creative freedom to express themselves beyond what he provided. Filoni says as much in the quote I provided. I did not miss anything because again, Filoni does not say that Lucas was a dead hard, heavy handed NO to anything he didn't like. Also, there are quotes from Filoni where he says Lucas did in fact come up with the stories, approve and/or request changes to unfinished animation, edit scripts, and even call in during the middle of recording sessions to request changes to individual lines. Yes, he was less involved than he was on the films. But he was still the creative genesis of the storytelling and the filter through which everything had to pass before it made it onto the screen, just like always. You're trying to make it seem like Filoni and the crew just made all kinds of major decisions about the lore and Lucas wasn't even involved. That's obviously not true. That just about covers it, I think. Ok, again, which things are Lucas's and which aren't? Lucas personally approved of lots of things for Star Wars stories over his life, Boba Fett living, Chewbacca's death, that he didn't personally agree with, but approved them for the people that were writing the stories. SO here we have a quote from a book where Lucas calls Sifo Dyas a Sith Apprentice, THE apprentice before Maul.. Where is that in TCW? Where is that story line in the canon of Star Wars right now? There is no evidence in TCW that Dyas was a Sith. Nothing. That bit of Lucas information seems to really contradict hard with what we see in TCW. Lucas is now 7+ years removed from Star Wars and TCW storylines. Again, if Lucas's words in that book are to be taken as gospel truth (even now), that his words may override something that is never seen, talked about, expressed, or explored in the show, than clearly there are other segments of that show that he doesn't agree on or at the very least conflict with. So pointing out to me that he has approved these stories means nothing to me. If there is a serious discussion to be had that Lucas's words now, that hold no more creative control over Star Wars, get to throw a monkey wrench in the stories of TCW, than pointing out that Lucas may have given his blessings of this or that in TCW, means nothing because it is clear that we don't know what parts of TCW he felt was in line with his story, or what parts came close to his feelings, but, are now in the same boat as the Sifo Dyas story. Hell, it's pretty obvious from the show that Dyas was not a Sith Apprentice. Dyas went to the Council and told them of the coming war and that they needed to prepare so much that the Jedi got tired of hearing it and kicked him off the council . Dyas was still a member of the Jedi Order when he was killed. Fans can't pick and choose out of convenience by saying that everything in TCW counts because Lucas OK'ed it, but than, 7 years later when Lucas makes a statement that seems to heavily contradict the plot and story lines of TCW, get to say Lucas's words mean something and can alter how we look at the show 7 years later. If fans are going to say that what Lucas says, even now, can alter the story and plot of TCW, than that means any aspect of TCW that was not expressly and specifically Lucas's vision, are now on the table for being debunked. So again, which aspects of TCW are those? When Lucas did not work on the show day to day. When he only occasionally got deeply involved, and when he, for the most part, just gave broad beats? |
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Post by Alexrd on Nov 16, 2020 17:41:42 GMT
It was an specific example to show that much of the story is probably not Lucas's story. It was filled in by others. Can you tell me what aspects of Sifo Dyas's TCW story is Lucas or Filoni or some writer you never heard of? Can you tell me what aspect of Obi Wan's Love story comes from Lucas, or Filoni, or some writer you never heard of. Again, in a group of people here that take Lucas's word as gospel truth, what gospel truth is there in TCW? What parts are gospel truth? This is the fundamental problem with TCW. Even Alexrd has admitted to this problem in a round about way. Alexrd has admitted in many conversations that Filoni's personal views of the Jedi have driven much of the storylines of how the Jedi are at fault in what happened during the events of the Prequels, and how Filoni's personal views of the Jedi don't seem to match up with Lucas's. Something I very much agree with Alex about. Lucas allowed it to go through, but, does that mean it is where he personally stands on the Jedi? Or was he allowing Filoni creative freedom? Regarding TCW, Filoni and the Jedi: Throughout its run, I never viewed TCW by itself. Meaning, I followed almost every interview, behind the scenes featurette, podcasts with Filoni, Gilroy & co on it as the episodes were released, and all of that information affects how I viewed its content. In that sense, I stand by what I've said all along: Filoni's approach regarding the Jedi (specially down the line) is opposite of Lucas's. What I don't understand is how this is possible when the guy spent so many hours with Lucas himself. All we need to do is listen to Lucas (even in these two books). At no point does Lucas cast blame or judgement against the Jedi for the events of the PT. Fans like to do that. They blame the Jedi for everything. For training children, for warning against the dark side, for not allowing marriage, for not pandering to "feelings", for being "cold", for ignoring Anakin, for telling the truth, for not doing what Palpatine does... All ludricous, petty and ignorant reasons. Perhaps this is a reflection of heroes that stand for reason, discipline and responsibility getting the spotlight in a generation that abhors those concepts and was taught to act on their impulses and urges instead of controlling them. But that's beside the point. My point is that Lucas does nothing of the sort. He does the opposite. He stands by them. To Lucas, the Jedi fell not because of their actions and decisions, but because they were decieved and betrayed, just like Padmé, Bail, and the other "good guys". It was a trap and they didn't manage to act fast enough to get out. Why? Because even the Jedi aren't perfect. They are "just human". At one point Paul Duncan asks if the Jedi have the moral authority to have the power that they have in the Republic, and George answers that yes, they do. That they are the most moral people in the universe. Filoni, in contrast, does cast judgement on the Jedi late in the series. And worse, he does it in an unfair and dishonest manner. But it's never downright stated in the episodes. It's always just something looming over them, like the elephant in the room that nobody talks about. At least on those episodes that Lucas still had a hand on and control over. Filoni had relegate those sentiments in interviews and other venues. This is something first made more explicit in the season 5 finale. There's an anti-Jedi narrative in that story arc. It's part of the plot. And there would be nothing wrong with it since the people were being played by Palpatine and it was meant to explain how nobody questions anything when Palpatine claims that the Jedi attacked him and suddenly declares himself Emperor. But no, Filoni made sure to make it clear in interviews that the villain's lecture in that arc was 100% right. Lucas probably saw it as nothing but a bad attempt by the "bad guy" to justify her actions. But to Filoni, that was the Jedi being deservedly called out. There's a total lack of nuance on his part on this issue. In the end, Ahsoka ends up leaving the Jedi Order and blaming herself. But originally, she blamed the Jedi. Filoni fortunately ended up revealing that that idea was removed thanks to Lucas, because that wasn't what he wanted to convey to the viewer. But with the series cancellation and Filoni having free reign in its revival, the anti-Jedi narrative was made blantant, with no internal logic. I even made a few memes at the time to illustrate that. Ok, again, which things are Lucas's and which aren't? Lucas personally approved of lots of things for Star Wars stories over his life, Boba Fett living, Chewbacca's death, that he didn't personally agree with, but approved them for the people that were writing the stories. Unlike those Licensing projects, TCW was something he had creative control over. It was something that he saw as part of his universe. It's a false equivalence to compare Lucas's yes/no telegram answers to Licensing with his hands-on involvement in TCW. SO here we have a quote from a book where Lucas calls Sifo Dyas a Sith Apprentice, THE apprentice before Maul.. Where is that in TCW? Where is that story line in the canon of Star Wars right now? There is no evidence in TCW that Dyas was a Sith. Nothing. That bit of Lucas information seems to really contradict hard with what we see in TCW. There's no evidence that he wasn't. There are no contradictions between what Lucas just revealed and what he established in TCW. Not only does that episode barely establishes anything regarding Sifo-Dyas and his story and what actually did happen between Dyas, Dooku, Sidious and the Kaminoans. The Jedi simply discover that the Sith were behind it. The 'how' and 'why' is not explained or revealed. If there is a serious discussion to be had that Lucas's words now, that hold no more creative control over Star Wars, get to throw a monkey wrench in the stories of TCW, than pointing out that Lucas may have given his blessings of this or that in TCW, means nothing because it is clear that we don't know what parts of TCW he felt was in line with his story, or what parts came close to his feelings, but, are now in the same boat as the Sifo Dyas story. Hell, it's pretty obvious from the show that Dyas was not a Sith Apprentice. Dyas went to the Council and told them of the coming war and that they needed to prepare so much that the Jedi got tired of hearing it and kicked him off the council . Dyas was still a member of the Jedi Order when he was killed. How does that contradict anything? What we do know from TCW is that what we see on screen had Lucas' approval, one way or the other. There are things we know that came from him and there are things we know that came from other people. In the end, he had to approve what came from other people, he had to see it as being in line with how he sees his universe, in order for him to allow it to be in the episodes. And what he didn't like didn't go into the episodes, and had it changed or downright removed. Fans can't pick and choose out of convenience by saying that everything in TCW counts because Lucas OK'ed it, but than, 7 years later when Lucas makes a statement that seems to heavily contradict the plot and story lines of TCW, get to say Lucas's words mean something and can alter how we look at the show 7 years later. Where's the heavy contradiction? P.S: To support the statement that he views TCW in the same continuity as his movies, all we need to do is read his summary of his sequel trilogy, heavily based on events that he established in TCW (where Darth Maul was revealed to have survived). Not only that, he mentions specific instances of the series in reference to his mythology (the Force Priestesses, the Wellspring of Life and Qui-Gon's link to them). |
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Post by mikeximus on Nov 16, 2020 19:11:24 GMT
It was an specific example to show that much of the story is probably not Lucas's story. It was filled in by others. Can you tell me what aspects of Sifo Dyas's TCW story is Lucas or Filoni or some writer you never heard of? Can you tell me what aspect of Obi Wan's Love story comes from Lucas, or Filoni, or some writer you never heard of. Again, in a group of people here that take Lucas's word as gospel truth, what gospel truth is there in TCW? What parts are gospel truth? This is the fundamental problem with TCW. Even Alexrd has admitted to this problem in a round about way. Alexrd has admitted in many conversations that Filoni's personal views of the Jedi have driven much of the storylines of how the Jedi are at fault in what happened during the events of the Prequels, and how Filoni's personal views of the Jedi don't seem to match up with Lucas's. Something I very much agree with Alex about. Lucas allowed it to go through, but, does that mean it is where he personally stands on the Jedi? Or was he allowing Filoni creative freedom? Regarding TCW, Filoni and the Jedi: Throughout its run, I never viewed TCW by itself. Meaning, I followed almost every interview, behind the scenes featurette, podcasts with Filoni, Gilroy & co on it as the episodes were released, and all of that information affects how I viewed its content. In that sense, I stand by what I've said all along: Filoni's approach regarding the Jedi (specially down the line) is opposite of Lucas's. What I don't understand is how this is possible when the guy spent so many hours with Lucas himself. AS I said, I have agreed with you on Filoni's anti-Jedi bias not matching up with what Lucas seems to believe. Why do you not understand the disconnect between Lucas and Filoni? I explained how. Because Lucas was not involved in the day to day operations. LOL... Lucas was not interested in overseeing every single detail of every single story. He gave Filoni creative freedom to create his own stories with a basic plot structure that Lucas wanted explained or explored. This is the whole point I am trying to make here. Filoni's anti-Jedi bias gets through because Lucas put him in charge of creating the stories and the content. Lucas wasn't interested in muzzling Filoni's creativity. Filoni says this over and over. Lucas trusted him to make the show and give him (Filoni) the freedom to do so. I believe the whole bio-chip plot was all from Filoni because he wanted to show that Palpatine's plan didn't go as perfectly as the movies showed it did. This was Filoni's personal opinion on the matter, one that may not match up with what Lucas believes. Just because Lucas ok'ed it, doesn't mean he felt it was in line with what he believed. He just wasn't going to go meta over putting Filoni's creativity in check. Ok, again, which things are Lucas's and which aren't? Lucas personally approved of lots of things for Star Wars stories over his life, Boba Fett living, Chewbacca's death, that he didn't personally agree with, but approved them for the people that were writing the stories. Unlike those Licensing projects, TCW was something he had creative control over. It was something that he saw as part of his universe. It's a false equivalence to compare Lucas's yes/no telegram answers to Licensing with his hands-on involvement in TCW. So you don't believe that Lucas exerted creative control over what happened in Licensing? The whole point of him giving those telegram answers was to exert his creative control over the things he cared about. The things he didn't care about, well he wasn't going to get meta or micro over the details that may hinder the creativity of the people writing the books. If they contradicted what he believed, well, he really wasn't interested in correcting it. He had better things to do, and he wasn't going to ever be held back by stories created by others. This was the whole point of the different levels of canon. To explain to us the fans the difference between Lucas's movies and all the other content when the discrepancies showed up. No one was ever going to tell Lucas what he could and couldn't say if he did Star Wars movies, contradicted with the EU or even TCW. Lucas was not going to be held back by what Filoni created in TCW. That is why LFL placed TCW in a separate level of canon. Just earlier this year, Sam Witwer again said the same thing that has been said over and over again Lucas was not deeply invovled in the stories, Witwer calls them "directives": This is why you see a disconnect (Jedi). Because Lucas was not sitting there making decisions on every single aspect of the show. He allowed the creators to create within the "directives" or "broad strokes" that he set forth. It's really not that had to comprehend. It's not like when Lucas was getting ready to start up for Episode 7 and he hired Arndt. Lucas wasn't just going to give Arndt a directive, and Arndt wasn't just going to write the movie, than pass it on to a director to direct it. And "It just got done". Lucas was and would have been involved, deeply involved, at every stage of the process for the movie. SO here we have a quote from a book where Lucas calls Sifo Dyas a Sith Apprentice, THE apprentice before Maul.. Where is that in TCW? Where is that story line in the canon of Star Wars right now? There is no evidence in TCW that Dyas was a Sith. Nothing. That bit of Lucas information seems to really contradict hard with what we see in TCW. There's no evidence that he wasn't. There are no contradictions between what Lucas just revealed and what he established in TCW. Not only does that episode barely establishes anything regarding Sifo-Dyas and his story and what actually did happen between Dyas, Dooku, Sidious and the Kaminoans. The Jedi simply discover that the Sith were behind it. The 'how' and 'why' is not explained or revealed. Plenty of evidence that he wasn't a Sith. It's clear that Sifo Dyas was killed so that someone, presumably Dooku, could pretend to be him and place the order for the Clones (which was done to confuse the Jedi). Silman says that Dyas was killed so that someone could pretend to be him. If Sifo Dyas is a Sith, that is willing to do the bidding of the Sith, there is no need to kill him so someone, Dooku, could pretend to be him. If Sifo Dyas is a Sith, no reason to kill him to pretend to be him. Silman knows the truth, that Dooku killed silman to pretend to be him, so that they could place the order for the clones, because Sifo Dyas had no intentions of placing the order. Even though Dooku stops Silman from spilling the beans, the Jedi find out that Dooku is Tryanus when the Pykes call Dooku by the name Tyranus. The clues in the Lost Ones episode allows the Jedi to finally realize that Clone Army was ordered by the Dooku, who they realize is a Sith Lord. Furthermore, Dyas was killed approximately at the same time as the events of TPM were going on, you know when Darth Maul was Sidious's apprentice. Obi Wan says in AOTC that Dyas was killed "almost" 10 years ago. Well, AOTC took place 10 years after the events of TPM. So what.. Maul was an apprentice for about 48 hours or so.. maybe a week, 2 weeks at best.. lmao. Is that the story we are going to go with now? My belief in what has happened with that Lucas quote.. Is that Lucas is just not familiar with the TCW material, and he got it wrong. I think it's a simple as that. If there is a serious discussion to be had that Lucas's words now, that hold no more creative control over Star Wars, get to throw a monkey wrench in the stories of TCW, than pointing out that Lucas may have given his blessings of this or that in TCW, means nothing because it is clear that we don't know what parts of TCW he felt was in line with his story, or what parts came close to his feelings, but, are now in the same boat as the Sifo Dyas story. Hell, it's pretty obvious from the show that Dyas was not a Sith Apprentice. Dyas went to the Council and told them of the coming war and that they needed to prepare so much that the Jedi got tired of hearing it and kicked him off the council . Dyas was still a member of the Jedi Order when he was killed. How does that contradict anything? What we do know from TCW is that what we see on screen had Lucas' approval, one way or the other. There are things we know that came from him and there are things we know that came from other people. In the end, he had to approve what came from other people, he had to see it as being in line with how he sees his universe, in order for him to allow it to be in the episodes. And what he didn't like didn't go into the episodes, and had it changed or downright removed. And yet you are confused about the portrayal of the Jedi in the show? Going by what you just said, you really need to stop complaining about the difference because obviously Lucas allowed it, and thus liked it. Fans can't pick and choose out of convenience by saying that everything in TCW counts because Lucas OK'ed it, but than, 7 years later when Lucas makes a statement that seems to heavily contradict the plot and story lines of TCW, get to say Lucas's words mean something and can alter how we look at the show 7 years later. Where's the heavy contradiction? Up above... |
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Post by mikeximus on Nov 16, 2020 19:39:02 GMT
P.S: To support the statement that he views TCW in the same continuity as his movies, all we need to do is read his summary of his sequel trilogy, heavily based on events that he established in TCW (where Darth Maul was revealed to have survived). Not only that, he mentions specific instances of the series in reference to his mythology (the Force Priestesses, the Wellspring of Life and Qui-Gon's link to them). Holy smokes.. are you people bothering to read and comprehend what I’m writing? Or are you so bothered by what I’m saying you’re going to create these ridiculous narratives so you can “prove me wrong”. I have said over and over again that obviously there are things that are directly from Lucas in TCW. That sometimes he got deeply involved. The problems are, what are those things? Lucas took things from TCW and put them in his ST? Ok? So? He took Ayala Secura from the cover of a comic book, that means he thinks that comic is part of his universe... Or he just liked how she looked. Same thing with Darth Talon. How about the swoop bikers in ANH.. those cane out of the EU book Shadows Of The Empire... he must believe that whole book is part of his universe too. It’s well known that Maul being alive came directly from Lucas. Do you really believe that Lucas would hold himself to every detail of what happens in TCW in order to tell his story in the ST? Do you think Lucas could tell you every detail of the Maul mythology from TCW? Obviously there are things in TCW that Lucas liked, that Lucas created, that Licas feels fit in with his mythology. What are those things? Don’t you think Sifo Dyas being an actual Sith is a bombshell revelation? A huge part of the story? But... crickets in the actual show to that narrative. Well gee, guess Filoni must have been asleep at that meeting... EDIT: Cryogenic I have read your post, and you deserve a response. So I have to move on his post now and put this topic behind me... I think I have said everything I can say, as I have been repeating myself over and over at this point. Otherwise I will get sidetracked with other things in my life and i will not be able to get to their posts, and it will be another 3 months before I show up again... |
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Post by Alexrd on Nov 16, 2020 20:19:07 GMT
What's with all the projection and animosity, man? We're having a discussion yet you're acting as if it's some sort of attack against you.
Before you throw baseless assumptions at people, take a look at the comments made so far. The revelation that Dyas was Sidious' apprentice was a surprise to me, as I said when I provided the quote on this very thread. Yet the fact that he was Sidious' apprentice before Maul doesn't contradict what has been established in TCW. We don't know the chronology of events. Before TCW, we didn't even know Dooku was working for Sidious while Maul was his apprentice. Even Filoni only realized that later from the story George gave him. Yet the narrative had to make sense and thus he had to work it out when the episode was being developed.
Lucas was familiar with what happened in TCW, not only did the story come from him but he mentions it directly in the same comments he makes the revelation about Dyas.
He didn't just take things from TCW. He established and developed things in TCW and from those he developed the story of the ST. Hence Maul being alive and being the next big bad guy.
And swoop bikes from Shadows of the Empire? It was Shadows that took elements that were developed for the special editions back in 1994, not the other way around.
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Post by Cryogenic on Nov 16, 2020 20:38:28 GMT
Lucas took things from TCW and put them in his ST? Ok? So? He took Ayala Secura from the cover of a comic book, that means he thinks that comic is part of his universe... Or he just liked how she looked. Same thing with Darth Talon. How about the swoop bikers in ANH.. those cane out of the EU book Shadows Of The Empire... he must believe that whole book is part of his universe too. Yep. The name Coruscant (as you probably know) was taken from Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy (1991 to 1993), while a bunch of other elements were thrown in from the Droids cartoon series from the mid-80s. Obi-Wan riding Boga in ROTS was inspired by a Star Wars Galaxy 1993 Topps trading card by Al Williamson (original source for this latter piece of information is "The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith" by J.W. Rinzler, p. 19). Lucas pulled inspiration from all over the place and has always liked to doff his cap to other artists and creatives. All without necessarily anointing those other sources as canon (or at least placing them on the same level as canon as the core saga movies). And swoop bikes from Shadows of the Empire? It was Shadows that took elements that were developed for the special editions back in 1994, not the other way around. But Dash Rendar's ship, the Outrider, was incorporated into the Special Edition release of ANH (or, at least, a model strongly reminiscent of it). EDIT: Actually, you might be right here. According to the "Behind The Scenes" information on Wookiepedia, it was first designed by Doug Chiang for the Special Edition release, and quickly adopted into the "Shadows Of The Empire" project, which just happened to come out first. Although these projects were incepted around the same time and there was probably deliberate cross-pollination. EDIT: Cryogenic I have read your post, and you deserve a response. So I have to move on his post now and put this topic behind me... I think I have said everything I can say, as I have been repeating myself over and over at this point. Otherwise I will get sidetracked with other things in my life and i will not be able to get to their posts, and it will be another 3 months before I show up again... No problem, Mike! Re-reading the new bunch of quotes I posted back on the previous page, I realised you were completely correct to indicate that it is very unlikely Lucas was working with a "Colonel Kurtz" conception of Luke, given that he claims in the new PT book by Paul Duncan that his sequel trilogy was set "a few years after Return Of The Jedi" (as you correctly pointed out). There is nothing that precludes his story having a slightly withdrawn and world-weary Luke, but it seems implausible Luke could all be that battle-scarred or turned crazy by war/strife given the proximity of Lucas' presumed Episode VII with the end of ROTJ. Makes you wonder exactly when and why Disney/LFL decided to set the ST thirty-something years after ROTJ instead and how Luke ties into that decision (e.g., "Who is Luke Skywalker?")... |
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Post by Alexrd on Nov 16, 2020 21:09:58 GMT
It would be like arguing that the movies novelizations are the source of its content because they came out first. Licensing used all the new stuff that was being developed for the special editions for its multimedia project at the time. Hence the swoops, the freighter, the labor droids, all being featured in Shadows of the Empire. But they were designed and developed for the special editions. The concept art proves it.  |
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Post by mikeximus on Nov 16, 2020 21:35:17 GMT
What's with all the projection and animosity, man? We're having a discussion yet you're acting as if it's some sort of attack against you. I am tired of having what I say mischaracterized so that false points can be made. Both you and Calamari have done it. It is extremely insulting to have words put in my mouth, or have false narratives created in order to makes points against things I never said. Before you throw baseless assumptions at people, take a look at the comments made so far. The revelation that Dyas was Sidious' apprentice was a surprise to me, as I said when I provided the quote on this very thread. Yet the fact that he was Sidious' apprentice before Maul doesn't contradict what has been established in TCW. We don't know the chronology of events. Before TCW, we didn't even know Dooku was working for Sidious while Maul was his apprentice. Even Filoni only realized that later from the story George gave him. Yet the narrative had to make sense and thus he had to work it out when the episode was being developed. What story did Lucas give Filoni? What did Lucas tell Filoni? What details? What chronology? In the video I provided, Filoni never says anything comes from Lucas! The only thing he says is Lucas wanted it "locked down". That sounds like a directive, much like how Witwer said Lucas operated... You know witwer, the guy that actualyl worked on the show, not you, or me ,or calamari, people that did not work on the show.... Again, that is my point.. what came from Lucas? We don't know what came from Lucas, and what came from Filoni as he sat there in front of the white board and tried to figure it out, because LUCAS was not there to tell him. If Dyas is a Sith Lord, where is that in the story, if Lucas wanted it "Locked down" more as Filoni says. Seems like a pretty big miss on Filoni's part if Lucas wanted the Sifo Dyas story locked down and forgot one of the biggest revelations of the TCW, that another Jedi had been turned to the Dark Side and was a Sith Lord. Why didn't Lucas catch that when he was going through his approval process that you two are so adamant to show is proof of Lucas accepting everything in the show. The problem is that Lucas says something 7 years after the fact that makes no discernable sense what so ever in the Lost One Episode, and the rush is to go and try to find a way to backfill it into the episode as truth. When the fact of the matter is pretty simple, that is not what the story was back when those episodes were made, Lucas did not elaborate that to Filoni if that is what Lucas believed to be the story. 7 year later, either Lucas screwed up the story line because guess what ppl, Lucas does not sit around thinking about Star Wars all the time. Or.. Lucas has had another narrative change since his time with TCW.. in which again, shows that he is not all that interested in keeping his story tied directly too what happened in TCW. Is anyone seriously going to sit here and suggest that Sifo Dyas being a Sith Lord was how Lucas saw the story and passed it on to Filoni when Lucas was working with Filoni on the episode? And yes, it makes no sense in any kind of logical story telling to have a scenario where the Sith Lord is killed so another Sith Lord can pretend to so something in the dead Sith Lords name, when the dead Sith Lord would have no problems doing the deed himself because he was a Sith Lord... Lucas was familiar with what happened in TCW, not only did the story come from him but he mentions it directly in the same comments he makes the revelation about Dyas. He didn't just take things from TCW. He established and developed things in TCW and from those he developed the story of the ST. Hence Maul being alive and being the next big bad guy. And swoop bikes from Shadows of the Empire? It was Shadows that took elements that were developed for the special editions back in 1994, not the other way around. Well first of all, The Special Editions came out in January of 1997... Shadows Of The Empire came out in May of 1996 with the swoop bike on the back cover because the bike and teh gangs associated with it were a part of the story, along with a Hasbro toy of the swoop bike around that same time, and the video game released in Dec 1996 had swoops in it. Just like Dash Rendars ship. There was some obvious cross referencing of details, but, I think it is safe to say that the swoop was an SOTE element before it was Special Editions element. Your art proves nothing. There is no date on it. They would have had to still draw up sketch work for the CGI for the movie... Also, guess who did much of the concept artwork for SOTE.. Doug Chiang.. He did the outrider, as well as many other pieces that were part of SOTE.. Nice your spending so much time to try and correct that one even if I am wrong, while willfully ignoring the other ones I brought up,. Again, though, what parts of the Sufo Dyas story in TCW came from Lucas...? Which parts exactly. You say that the story came from him.. What story, what parts, and proof? Cryogenic , there are sources that I have read in the past that Chiang designed multiple ships, including the outrider specifically for SOTE. Trying to find them.. starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Doug_ChiangThe reference for that information is from a "Making of" book for SOTE. DOUBLE EDIT: OK now i am done with this side discussion. It has been interesting, but, I need to get back on topic as I feel I am just spinning my wheels at this point. |
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Post by Cryogenic on Nov 16, 2020 22:27:21 GMT
It would be like arguing that the movies novelizations are the source of its content because they came out first. Licensing used all the new stuff that was being developed for the special editions for its multimedia project at the time. Hence the swoops, the freighter, the labor droids, all being featured in Shadows of the Empire. But they were designed and developed for the special editions. The concept art proves it. Cool concept piece. I'm guessing, given the name and the way those shiny parts look, this is meant to be the equivalent of a Harley-Davidson. Another pre-PT example of Lucas indulging his love of chrome? Maybe these pieces were made with the expectation that one or two would quickly find a home elsewhere? I mean, as mentioned, the Special Edition and Shadows Of The Empire projects more or less occurred in parallel, so perhaps SOTE was intended, in part, to give some of the designs a better airing. Cryogenic , there are sources that I have read in the past that Chiang designed multiple ships, including the outrider specifically for SOTE. Trying to find them.. starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Doug_ChiangThe reference for that information is from a "Making of" book for SOTE. Yeah. As just mentioned to Alex, design work was probably occurring in parallel with the idea that certain pieces would be carried across. Speaking of SOTE: This article notes that it was Lucas' first foray into the "underworld" aspect of Star Wars, which kind of takes us full circle with the new information on Lucas' sequel trilogy: And after that fell through, he would build it into his sequel trilogy concept to Disney. The article continues: "Shadows Of The Empire" would probably make a good subtitle for Lucas' sequel trilogy. And it seems that Maul would have taken on the Xizor/Dark Prince role in Lucas' ST. His being "perfectly capable of defeating Vader" also makes sense, as Maul was sort of the PT's exotic version of Vader, and is the first youthful, attack-dog Sith to combat Obi-Wan, while Anakin/Vader is the last. If he survived beyond the PT and OT, then he would presumably have become very ruthless and very capable. The "warring-clan intrigue" is also something Lucas apparently ported into his sequel trilogy outlines. From my earlier post (taken from this page): Another article on SOTE spells out the main contribution of the 1990s multimedia project at the end: After twenty years, we could have enjoyed a sequel trilogy that had a SOTE feel, but also one infused with the cosmic dimension of the Force and an abundance of references to the PT and TCW. It could have been immensely compelling. |
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Darth Plagueis, Sifo-Dyas had the vision then mentioned it to Dooku, who mentioned to Palpatine who then met with Sifo-Dyas and talked with him about it a couple times, mentioning the Kaminoans in the discussion - planting the idea in his head.
