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Post by mikeximus on Dec 27, 2019 23:04:11 GMT
I've created this thread as a place to create a depository for evidence and facts and the relevant discussion about the George Lucas treatments that were abandoned by Disney almost immediately after the sale.
I would really like to see legit articles, any information from relevant people (ie tweets), information from LFL books. I'm looking for actual links to the articles and links to tweets etc etc. Things we all can go read or find, instead of relying on our individual memories of some article one once read.
I would like to put together some kind of time line and information so that we can get some kind of idea of what has happened. The waters have been so muddied over the years with opinions, false information, rumors, etc etc etc that I can't keep up with it all...
Also, this isn't just a pro-Lucas, if there is relevant information that works against any of the Lucas was betrayed narratives, it should still be put in here.
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Post by mikeximus on Dec 27, 2019 23:04:28 GMT
I'm going to use this spot to gather any information that is provided as this thread grows: So here is where I can start with the Information I have: June 1st, 2012 - K. Kennedy is announced as co-chair of LFL AnnouncementJune 12th, 2012 - Lucas calls Iger and negotiations start Bloomberg article
Oct 19th 2012 - Lynne Hale Interviews Lucas and Kennedy about Disney Sale, Episode 7, writers and more in anticipation of the Oct 30th announcement. StarWars.com AnnouncementOct 30th, 2012 Announcement that Disney has bought infamous interview pt1 infamous Lucas/Kennedy interview pt 2
Nov 9th, 2012 - Michael Arndt is confirmed as writing screenplay for Ep 7. However, what becomes clear is that Lucas had already begun working with Arndt prior to the sale. Arndt announcement December 14th, 2012 - Kennedy and Abrams meet for the first time to discuss directors job. In article Kennedy refers to Abrams excitement over working with Kasdan and Arndt, no mention of Lucas. Kennedy THR interviewDecember 19th, 2012 - Kennedy and Abrams meet with episode 7 "writers" about directors job. Again no mention of Lucas. Kennedy THR interview
Jan 2013 - Concept Art of a "Col. Kurtz like" Luke is created by Christian Alzmann with the caption "My first image I made for Star Wars : The Force Awakens. This was January of 2013. Luke was being described as a Col. Kurtz type hiding from the world in a cave. I couldn’t believe I was getting to make this image and I got a George “Fabulouso” on it to boot." Nerdist Article on Concept artJan 25th, 2013 - After long negotiations JJ Abrams agrees to and is announced as director of Ep 7. announcement Kennedy THR interviewMarch 2013 - It is revealed in the Bloomberg article that Lucas had already entered negotiations with the Big 3 to return for Ep 7 prior to the sale to Disney. Bloomberg ArticleOctober 24th, 2013 - Arndt is out, Abrams and Kasdan take over as writers Announcement
September 1st, 2015 - In vanity fair article, Abrams reveals that Kennedy and Disney scrapped Lucas treatments (before his involvement), Kennedy concedes, but only in normal development process, article hints of Lucas/Disney fracture Vanity Fair Article |
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Post by mikeximus on Dec 27, 2019 23:56:27 GMT
Well, I just noticed that the Bloomberg interview is now behind a paywall... I believe that was the first mention ever that theLucas treatments were ditched? I believe it was Abrams saying that Kennedy and Iger had made the decision before he was even brought on board?
I have a hard copy of that article somewhere in my books, need to find it.
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Post by Subtext Mining on Dec 27, 2019 23:57:16 GMT
I can't get over the fact that it was on December 21, 2012, that Disney completed the acquisition and Lucasfilm became a wholly owned subsidiary of Disney.
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Dec 28, 2019 0:35:36 GMT
Interesting idea, mikeximus. You should broaden it beyond the treatments to include a full history of Lucas' relationship with Disney post-sale. In this regard, passages from Robert Iger's recent book may be of assistance.
Do keep this updated in the months ahead - I think many visitors will find it of help. I'm sure Cryogenic should be able to assist you with the research.
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Post by mikeximus on Dec 28, 2019 8:50:02 GMT
Interesting idea, mikeximus. You should broaden it beyond the treatments to include a full history of Lucas' relationship with Disney post-sale. In this regard, passages from Robert Iger's recent book may be of assistance.
Do keep this updated in the months ahead - I think many visitors will find it of help. I'm sure Cryogenic should be able to assist you with the research.
Thank you! The good thing about making this about the treatments is that a huge amount of the public information out there about the Lucas/Disney relationship revolves around the treatments. Even Igers comments in the book were about the treamenrs basically. So I’m sure to capture a great deal of the relationship. And yes I’m hoping for Cryogenic help on this! |
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Dec 28, 2019 23:01:30 GMT
I'll be honest - I'm not really so bothered that Lucas didn't get to make a Sequel Trilogy, as I'd long believed Episode III was the end. What truly does sadden me is the fact that he couldn't hold on to his company and that he never got to make the Underworld series. I believe if that TV show had gone ahead in 2010-12 ish as he'd hoped, a lot of good will would have been generated and he would never have felt pressurised into abandoning his creation. The sting from the prequel backlash would still be there, but successful television would bring him the confidence to produce, if not direct new films - eventually.
Even if he had to finance new movies with an external studio, and only had a role in their story, I believe that would have been so much valuable than the non-involvement and, to use Iger's words, "betrayal", that we've got under Disney.
Star Wars today just doesn't feel fully legitimate without its author.
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Post by Alexrd on Dec 29, 2019 20:45:37 GMT
I've posted this list on the JCF based on all the information that has been released so far: - It was set 30 years after ROTJ. (Pablo Hidalgo's Twitter) - Luke, Leia, Han and Chewie would appear. (George Lucas / Pablo Hidalgo's Twitter) - Luke, being a Jedi, wouldn't be married or have an offspring. (Pablo Hidalgo's Twitter) - It would focus on Anakin's grandchildren (plural). (George Lucas) - Luke was secluded on an ancient Jedi Temple. (The Art of The Last Jedi) - It would feature a female protagonist (Thea/Kira) and the son of Han and Leia (Sam/Skyler), both in their 20s. (The Art of The Force Awakens) - Luke would start training Kira halfway through Episode VII. (Pablo Hidalgo's Twitter) - Han would die in Episode VII. (Harrison Ford) - Luke would die in Episode IX. (Mark Hamill) - The son would have been seduced/corrupted by Talon in Episode VII. Not necessarily Darth Talon as depicted in the EU, but someone with the same look. (Pablo Hidalgo's Twitter) - There would have been pirates. (Pablo Hidalgo's Twitter) - Talon would be under the influence of / or serving someone else, temporarily known as Uber. (Pablo Hidalgo's Twitter) - It would feature the Whills and a 'microbiotic world'. (George Lucas) - The planet Felucia would be featured. (Pablo Hidalgo's Twitter) - There was no Imperial remnant/First Order. (Pablo Hidalgo's Twitter) - There was no Knights of Ren. (Pablo Hidalgo's Twitter) - There was no Anakin's lightsaber. (Pablo Hidalgo's Twitter) - Palpatine would not return. (Ian McDiarmid) There are two pieces of concept art that are known to have been approved by Lucas (The Art of The Last Jedi / Christian Alzmann's Instagram). An ancient Jedi Temple where Luke went to:  And how Luke would look like:  I might edit this later with more links. Sadly Hidalgo locked his Twitter account. I did see a few months ago an archive of them all, but I can't find them at the moment. |
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Dec 30, 2019 7:56:39 GMT
Therefore Leia would not have become a Jedi? Otherwise, we have a big contradiction.
That likely implies a role for Luke not dissimilar to Obi-Wan through Episodes II-IV then? By that I mean he's part of the group of heroes, yet he's not dominating either. So he goes on grand adventures like the mystery plot in AOTC, whilst also being the master of one of the new generation's padowans.
Who else do we have other than Han and Leia's child Sam/Skyler then? I would prefer if it included Luke's own son or daughter - I don't see the merits in continuing the flawed clerical celibacy Jedi discipline of the PT.
Other questions that interest me (it doesn't matter if you don't have the answers at hand)
Do we know if Anakin's Force Ghost would play a role?
Would there have been significant time gaps between the films - to highlight different life stages of a character - like in the PT, or would these have been short gaps like the OT? Or perhaps none at all like the Disney Trilogy?
Do we know if it would have prominently featured institutions like the prequels did? Firstly, the New Galactic Republic: senate, military, diplomats, politicians and all other such entities linked to it. Would it still be on Coruscant? Secondly, the revived Jedi Order: would it be tied to the Republic again, or would it be more of a decentralized organisation, perhaps even without a headquarters?
Do we have any idea if the enemy would have come from within like in the PT, or would it have been an external threat? In other words: would the Force be immediately out of balance at the start of Episode VII (like the Disney Trilogy), or would it gradually go unbalanced? I'm assuming the Sith Order would still be extinct, so there would be some other Dark-side using antagonist like Snoke (before he was ret-conned in TROS, that is).
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Post by Alexrd on Dec 30, 2019 10:14:06 GMT
Therefore Leia would not have become a Jedi? Otherwise, we have a big contradiction. We don't know. One one hand, Hamill (who is aware of the story in the treatments) said that Luke would have trained Leia before he died, and on another, Abrams said that in conversations with Lucas, Leia hadn't chosen that path for her life. I didn't list it because of that, even though these aren't necessarily contradicting statements. If what Hamill said is true, we don't know under what circumstances Luke would have trained Leia or what sort of training it entails. But we do know that she hadn't been trained as a Jedi before the sequel trilogy, otherwise why train her all these decades later? If she hadn't been trained up to this point, then Abrams' statement makes sense. But this is all more speculation than fact. It's important to remember that Jedi don't form families for various reasons. Not only to not foment attachments but also because family is its own commitment. I'm speculating here, but if Leia ended up being trained as a Jedi later on in the sequel trilogy, then it means she had no attachments or commitments in her life when she decided to do so. Which is always a possibility. That likely implies a role for Luke not dissimilar to Obi-Wan through Episodes II-IV then? It's possible, yes. Who else do we have other than Han and Leia's child Sam/Skyler then? I would prefer if it included Luke's own son or daughter - I don't see the merits in continuing the flawed clerical celibacy Jedi discipline of the PT. Well, it's not flawed to begin with. It's logical. As for who else is Anakin's grandchild, we don't know. But Lucas did say 'grandchildren' in various instances. We don't know who Thea/Kyra is, nor if Han/Leia had more than one son. Do we know if Anakin's Force Ghost would play a role? We don't. But I believe Anakin, Obi-Wan and Yoda wouldn't have been ignored. Would there have been significant time gaps between the films - to highlight different life stages of a character - like in the PT, or would these have been short gaps like the OT? Or perhaps none at all like the Disney Trilogy? Possibly, we don't know. Lucas had time gaps between all of his Episodes. I don't see him doing what Disney did with TFA>TLJ. It's not part of the style Lucas followed. Do we know if it would have prominently featured institutions like the prequels did? Firstly, the New Galactic Republic: senate, military, diplomats, politicians and all other such entities linked to it. Would it still be on Coruscant? Secondly, the revived Jedi Order: would it be tied to the Republic again, or would it be more of a decentralized organisation, perhaps even without a headquarters? According to Hidalgo, there wouldn't have been a Jedi Academy like in the EU. An academy is incompatible with how George viewed the Jedi (and I understand why. It removes any spiritual aspect to it. Might as well call it Jedi school). Luke would have trained students in a Jedi Temple. If it's the one on Coruscant or not, it hasn't been revealed (or if we were to see it at all). Do we have any idea if the enemy would have come from within like in the PT, or would it have been an external threat? In other words: would the Force be immediately out of balance at the start of Episode VII (like the Disney Trilogy), or would it gradually go unbalanced? I'm assuming the Sith Order would still be extinct, so there would be some other Dark-side using antagonist like Snoke (before he was ret-conned in TROS, that is). Pirates would've been a faction, but it's hard to say if they would be the villain faction. Assuming it would have one to begin with. Uber and Talon seem to be some other sort of dark side antagonists. Personally, I don't think the Force would be out of balance at the start of Episode VII. In fact, with the Whills and all, I think the issue would have been different altogether. |
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Dec 30, 2019 13:39:49 GMT
Yet if Leia gets to have a child and also be a Jedi, it make no sense to hold Luke to a different standard. Either lifelong celibacy for both sexes, or no celibacy - it's very simple, Alex.
No, it's not. It was a part of the morally bankrupt ideology that lead the unseeing Jedi to their demise by the end of the prequels. It would be logical for celibacy to be quickly abandoned in any reformed Jedi Order.
I'm getting the impression that this would be much less the organizational, hierarchical and powerful entity of the PT, than a collection of small, private bodies scattered throughout the Galaxy which are lead by one master. I'm not suggesting a change here would be for the worse either, it could very much work better. It sure would beat what we got in the Disney trilogy, which was a grave mistake.
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Post by Alexrd on Dec 30, 2019 15:54:23 GMT
Yet if Leia gets to have a child and also be a Jedi, it make no sense to hold Luke to a different standard. Either lifelong celibacy for both sexes, or no celibacy - it's very simple, Alex. I never advocated for different standards. I'm saying that if Leia were to be in a position where she has no commitments or attachments, she could then train to be a Jedi. What she couldn't do is be a Jedi and then form a family. Anyone in that position, Leia or someone else, would be failing one or the other (and at the end of the day, themselves). No, it's not. It was a part of the morally bankrupt ideology that lead the unseeing Jedi to their demise by the end of the prequels. It would be logical for celibacy to be quickly abandoned in any reformed Jedi Order. No, it wouldn't. To advocate that Jedi should form families or give into lust and other aspects that are directly opposed to who they are, is to completely misinterpret the Jedi and what they stand for. "morally bankrupt ideology that lead the unseeing Jedi to their demise by the end of the prequels" What?! When? How? Where does that even come from? I'm getting the impression that this would be much less the organizational, hierarchical and powerful entity of the PT, than a collection of small, private bodies scattered throughout the Galaxy which are lead by one master. I don't get that impression at all. Luke wasn't tasked to reform the Jedi, how they work and what they stand for. He was tasked to follow their ways and pass on what he had learned. |
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Post by mikeximus on Dec 30, 2019 21:51:24 GMT
And how Luke would look like: I might edit this later with more links. Sadly Hidalgo locked his Twitter account. I did see a few months ago an archive of them all, but I can't find them at the moment. OK, so this thread took off, I have more to add, and thank you Alexrd for your additions... Actually, one of your additions, is exactly why I wanted to start this thread, the above Luke concept art. That art is interesting when it comes into the whole timeline of Lucas, Disney, and the treatments. I've read in different circles that Lucas wanted Luke to be a recluse of some kind in his treatments, and people pointed to this concept art as proof because of the Fabulouso from Lucas. Now, I have no doubt that Lucas had something in mind for Luke that led him to withdraw for whatever reason. The issue with this concept art being from Lucas's vision is that it is dated, by the artists own words, as being done in January of 2013. Well after the sale to Disney. nerdist.com/article/luke-skywalker-concept-art-star-wars-the-force-awakens-the-last-jed/If we take Abrams word, he says that Kennedy and Iger had decided to move away from the Lucas treatments even before he (Abrams) Abrams was brought on board, which that announcement was January 25th 2013, but, If i remember right, Abrams said that he agreed to Direct in December of 2012. I will definitely have to find proof of that. In Iger's book, he says that Lucas got upset because: "Early on, Kathy brought J.J. and Michael Arndt up to Northern California to meet with George at his ranch and talk about their ideas for the film. George immediately got upset as they began to describe the plot and it dawned on him that we weren’t using one of the stories he submitted during the negotiations." So we have Abrams saying the treatments were tossed before he got there, which I believe was in December of 2012. This art coming in Jan of 2013, with Lucas obviously still in his consultant role, and I have to believe that the meeting that Iger referred to had already happened. I highly highly doubt Iger and Disney are still allowing Lucas to over see pre-produciton at the Ranch to the point Lucas is OK'ing art from his treatments. I'm in fact betting that this art was probably handed to Lucas at the very meeting that Iger is referring too. Lucas was just being polite at this point, after learning of the betrayal... more later.... |
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Post by tonyg on Dec 31, 2019 11:05:08 GMT
For me it was natural for the new trilogy to emphasize more on the spiritual side of things which in the previous trilogies is less (and very briefly) shown for obvious reasons. But if the Chosen one brought balance to the Force, then somw big conflict as in the previous trilogies is not to be expected, it should be more personal one. Lucas said that in various interviews before TFA.
Also, it should be important for Luke and Leia to find out the whole truth for their past and to tell it at least to their children. To have a politically, socially and in a way personally oblivious world as was shown in TFA would be highly improbable as Lucas would respect the lore made by himself.
Speaking of lore, Luke promised to Leia that she would learn to use her power, so I cannot see why even in the EU they refused to make her a Jedi. Even if she followed a political career she should be at least trained as such.
Having in mind that the love saved Luke and Anakin I also expect the New Order to rely on strong families.
Luke surviving Ep.8 was a logical decision in the circumstances around the real episode although I was sure that Lucas would left him after the end (in a way, this is Yoda's fate).
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Post by jppiper on Dec 31, 2019 14:29:56 GMT
she became a Jedi in the old canon
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Jan 1, 2020 8:54:49 GMT
she became a Jedi in the old canon
I'm not so familiar with those old books, and though I would agree that they enrich the lore, I think it's worth reiterating what Maychild has often talked about on Naboo News: that these novels were never fully canon to George Lucas. They are best described as a parallel mythology.
Personally speaking, I prefer the idea of Leia following in her mother's footsteps and becoming an important senator in the revived Republic. You cannot look at a prospective Sequel Trilogy without examining what the creator did in his Prequel trilogy, and acknowledging how that impacts what is to come. tonyg I do like the idea of her being trained by her brother, but I find her decision to forgo that career could be a fascinating topic to explore. Maybe she had a brief falling out with Luke, maybe it was to do with her marriage or maybe related to her son - they are so many interesting choices. I would never have it in flashbacks either - those are antithetical to the visual language of Star Wars.
I love the idea of Luke as a Jedi master akin to Yoda in the PT, but more personable like Obi-Wan in II through IV. He wouldn't preside over a new equivalent of the Jedi Council, yet he would be far from possessing DBZ-like powers either. His relationship with Anakin's grandchildren would be the core of the story. The Force would be out of balance in the sense that powerful Dark-side users would exist, while the Sith would remain extinct. That way Anakin still fulfils the prophecy, yet there's still room for a challenge for the new generation. I have no problem whatsoever with Han dying in VII, though I do think a reunion with Luke and Leia has to be written into the script at some point. Luke dying in IX would make sense too.
Regardless, I'm more interested in what George himself would have done. I think it's important to realise that it wouldn't be without controversial decisions, and there would almost certainly be big ramifications for I-VI, but at the end of the day, it would all feel legitimate. Knowing that he wouldn't revive Palpatine, and that he would honour Anakin's legacy, would instantly make it more valuable to me than the trilogy we got with Disney.
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Post by Alexrd on Jan 3, 2020 20:44:37 GMT
That art is interesting when it comes into the whole timeline of Lucas, Disney, and the treatments. I've read in different circles that Lucas wanted Luke to be a recluse of some kind in his treatments, and people pointed to this concept art as proof because of the Fabulouso from Lucas. Now, I have no doubt that Lucas had something in mind for Luke that led him to withdraw for whatever reason. The issue with this concept art being from Lucas's vision is that it is dated, by the artists own words, as being done in January of 2013. Well after the sale to Disney. If we take Abrams word, he says that Kennedy and Iger had decided to move away from the Lucas treatments even before he (Abrams) Abrams was brought on board, which that announcement was January 25th 2013, but, If i remember right, Abrams said that he agreed to Direct in December of 2012. I will definitely have to find proof of that. In Iger's book, he says that Lucas got upset because: "Early on, Kathy brought J.J. and Michael Arndt up to Northern California to meet with George at his ranch and talk about their ideas for the film. George immediately got upset as they began to describe the plot and it dawned on him that we weren’t using one of the stories he submitted during the negotiations." So we have Abrams saying the treatments were tossed before he got there, which I believe was in December of 2012. This art coming in Jan of 2013, with Lucas obviously still in his consultant role, and I have to believe that the meeting that Iger referred to had already happened. I highly highly doubt Iger and Disney are still allowing Lucas to over see pre-produciton at the Ranch to the point Lucas is OK'ing art from his treatments. I'm in fact betting that this art was probably handed to Lucas at the very meeting that Iger is referring too. Lucas was just being polite at this point, after learning of the betrayal... Work on Lucas' sequels didn't stop with the sale. That January 16 art meeting (where he approved the concept art) was the last time Lucas was creatively involved on his sequels. After this, actually, later in that very month, Iger & co decided to abandon everything and start over with their own story. Abrams and Arndt were in a January 9 meeting, which means that at least he was already being eyed to direct the first movie. Or maybe he was even there to be convinced, but that's speculation. The point is that the fact that he was there doesn't mean he was officially involved. When Abrams says that the treatments were discarded before he got onboard, that's very possibly true. He was only brought onboard near the end of that same month (and only became hands-on involved around May), and the days in between were when Iger, Kennedy & co decided to do something else. Abrams was probably informed of that before he took the job. Regarding how Luke was being envisioned vs what they ended up doing in TLJ is actually worth mentioning, since a lot of ignorant people in the media tried to pass the idea that TLJ is being faithful to what George wanted, when the evidence proves otherwise. The only thing they both have in common is that Luke was secluded. |
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Jan 4, 2020 10:48:25 GMT
Did J.W. Rinzler have anything meaty to say about the treatment of Lucas after the sale?
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Post by Alexrd on Jan 4, 2020 13:30:23 GMT
He was probably going to, but Disney shut down his blog.
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Post by jppiper on Jan 4, 2020 15:05:20 GMT
Have you heard of people petitioning for a Abrams cut of TROS? Like People wanting a Snyder cut of Justice League two Overrated Directors who don't know sh*t About the characters they were giving the keys to (and WB is out of their mind to offer jj a deal)
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