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Post by Ingram on Oct 21, 2022 20:26:00 GMT
I'll contend this one. Sort of. While the latter assertion concerning Andor is true (at least, I think it's true) I don't see how such validates the former, or how the former is true even in a general sense, unless we're playing so loosely with the term "experimental" as to rob it of any real meaning. Logically, the ST beginning with The Force Awakens was new content in the strictest terms yet as a work of pop-art meant to stand alongside the previous trilogies I'd argue it was borderline anti-experimental. It was profoundly contrived, risk-averse, predictably sentimental etc., even if vibrantly silly here and there in execution and finite moments of whim. In the sense you're using it, TFA wasn't a particularly experimental film, no. Nevertheless, the experiment itself began there, intensifying with TLJ. (And we could throw in "Rogue One" if we're feeling generous). TFA may largely have been a "retro" movie, but there are some neat moments of pop grace within, and it does actually re-frame the entire mythos in terms of the strangely erotic connection between Rey and Kylo Ren. With its odd foray into gothic romance and the darkly enchanting figure of Kylo himself, it is even a tad meta; what with Kylo's tantrums and Vader fetish playing as glib commentary on the self-defeating fanboy obsession with the prequels, wherein Darth Fanboy constantly pitted the newer films against the originals; the latter constantly idealised against the former. In that regard, even the title of the Abrams film becomes an illuminating manifesto: Star Wars, or its elusive élan vital, awakening to the possibility it is in a state of conflict with itself, being as much "prequel" as "original" in its cinematic corporeality -- even when the film that introduces this self-aware dialectic is, on the surface, making a series of overly faithful gestures to one side of that equation. So, yeah, TFA kinda is experimental, actually. The basic issue, to quote someone on TFN, was that Abrams "shellacked it with such a thick nostalgic coat that, to this day, a lot of people don't realize it really does take a few turns that, on paper, would cause uproar."
It might then be an issue of weights & measures. The Force Awakens stands apart conceptually only when it's being most reflexive, but I'm not so sure how cryptic this all is or was given that Kylo's fanboy fixation metaphor seemed the stuff of mention following the film's initial release. It also rang for me as an insipidly small theme: the saga storyline no longer universal with George's cultivation of age-old wisdoms but now inert and reduced to its own franchise-oriented angst, Disney budget gloss or no. Moreover, if ever a filmwork is to be judged holistically above 'n' beyond whatever allusions that first made their way onto paper... the onscreen cinematic realization of Episode VII is an elephant in the room that I for one remain hard pressed to thinly veil with pop-avant-garde. I might only and respectively afford Rian Johnson a higher 'mad science' score in his attempt to expand aforesaid angst across a wider field of dramatic conflict and thus manifested more purposefully, even if he did cop-out by the third act with a sequel that ultimately had very little to say.
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Post by smittysgelato on Oct 21, 2022 20:26:30 GMT
If the show keeps giving me Mon Mothma moments it shall keep my goodwill. (Sorry, Cassian, you've been upstaged).
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 21, 2022 23:35:55 GMT
In the sense you're using it, TFA wasn't a particularly experimental film, no. Nevertheless, the experiment itself began there, intensifying with TLJ. (And we could throw in "Rogue One" if we're feeling generous). TFA may largely have been a "retro" movie, but there are some neat moments of pop grace within, and it does actually re-frame the entire mythos in terms of the strangely erotic connection between Rey and Kylo Ren. With its odd foray into gothic romance and the darkly enchanting figure of Kylo himself, it is even a tad meta; what with Kylo's tantrums and Vader fetish playing as glib commentary on the self-defeating fanboy obsession with the prequels, wherein Darth Fanboy constantly pitted the newer films against the originals; the latter constantly idealised against the former. In that regard, even the title of the Abrams film becomes an illuminating manifesto: Star Wars, or its elusive élan vital, awakening to the possibility it is in a state of conflict with itself, being as much "prequel" as "original" in its cinematic corporeality -- even when the film that introduces this self-aware dialectic is, on the surface, making a series of overly faithful gestures to one side of that equation. So, yeah, TFA kinda is experimental, actually. The basic issue, to quote someone on TFN, was that Abrams "shellacked it with such a thick nostalgic coat that, to this day, a lot of people don't realize it really does take a few turns that, on paper, would cause uproar." It might then be an issue of weights & measures. The Force Awakens stands apart conceptually only when it's being most reflexive, but I'm not so sure how cryptic this all is or was given that Kylo's fanboy fixation metaphor seemed the stuff of mention following the film's initial release. It also rang for me as an insipidly small theme: the saga storyline no longer universal with George's cultivation of age-old wisdoms but now inert and reduced to its own franchise-oriented angst, Disney budget gloss or no. Moreover, if ever a filmwork is to be judged holistically above 'n' beyond whatever allusions that first made their way onto paper... the onscreen cinematic realization of Episode VII is an elephant in the room that I for one remain hard pressed to thinly veil with pop-avant-garde. I might only and respectively afford Rian Johnson a higher 'mad science' score in his attempt to expand aforesaid angst across a wider field of dramatic conflict and thus manifested more purposefully, even if he did cop-out by the third act with a sequel that ultimately had very little to say. You won't receive much pushback from me on this. "The Force Awakens" is a nothing burger of a film next to "The Phantom Menace" -- all the prequels, in fact. I would contend, in some regards, it has more psychological texturing than, say, "A New Hope"; but then, the original film has plenty of other things going for it. TFA remains embalmed as a corporate product: reactionary, conservative, safe. By contrast, "The Last Jedi" at least ups the ante a little bit; even if it's also a bit of a misfire (if nothing else, it's a trilogy killer) and doesn't necessarily have the courage of its convictions (the third act is, yeah, a bit shit). Aside from all the straight and steady technical qualities of the original six Saga films, not to mention the beautiful thematic depth of each, what really keeps me watching and thinking about those movies is GL's chimerical imagination; amply on display in each (but especially TPM). There ain't nothin' like Battle Droids, a nice 'n' loud podrace, a gleaming megapolis that is an idealised 1920s retro-future New York City, colourful underwater shenanigans redolent of a children's large format storybook, Jar Jar running about on mighty grass plains as machines of death throw him into a frenzy, a geisha queen retaking her Flash Gordon palace, or some Jedi dudes fighting a red-faced demon in a big power reactor facility, to keep me engaged. Worldbuilding is too small a term for it all. How about: symphonic world creation -- the inner Logos rendered as an architectonic sound-and-light show for the delight and amazement of the viewer; and for the elevation and refinement of consciousness itself? Yeah, that's a little better. Sod everything else. |
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Post by Ingram on Oct 22, 2022 1:32:36 GMT
It's an interesting discussion next to Andor. Johnson's middle installment puts on airs like it's some kind of hefty literary adaptation (consequently feeling more and more like a taxed Harry Potter sequel with each revisit) while the ST around it, as bookended by Abrams, becomes sillier and sillier. One cannot deny its 'nuked fridge' topography whereas this series by comparison hasn't any such. Well, not yet anyways. On average it's a gallery of players repeatedly strutting up and down corridors, sneaking around back alleys or sauntering in cocktail dresses & curtainwear -- all murmurs and whispering -- under perpetual balmy skies.
Brass tacks, Andor is conventionally boring—yet also being shrewd about it. Our first wholly committed Star Wars procedural.
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 22, 2022 2:27:24 GMT
It's an interesting discussion next to Andor. Johnson's middle installment puts on airs like it's some kind of hefty literary adaptation (consequently feeling more and more like a taxed Harry Potter sequel with each revisit) while the ST around it, as bookended by Abrams, becomes sillier and sillier. One cannot deny its 'nuked fridge' topography The thing about the Sequel Trilogy is that the individual films are individually okay as films. But they don't work well as a trilogy. The ST is basically a Force tussle between Abrams and Johnson; and the wider machinery and supposed, ahem, "story" of the Sequel Trilogy suffer because of it. That's without even getting into all the rehashed narrative and visual (even musical) elements, or the lack of a compelling and coherent in-universe political context. Since the political backdrop itself is a rehash of the Original Trilogy, done badly, we're left with a shallow cowboys-and-indians storyline that is incredibly bland and inept after the welcome complexity of the prequels, and redundant after the originals. Bizarrely, Luke Skywalker -- the frickin' protagonist of a whole other trilogy -- is the only character who really gets a properly delineated arc; Rey, Finn, Poe are just finger puppets, Leia is a copy-and-paste computer sprite, and Palpatine is a demented loudspeaker in the middle of a Sith rock concert. That leaves Kylo, which the Abrams-Johnson triptych seems conflicted on giving the spotlight to (Johnson, yes; Abrams, yes-no). Oh, and then R2 is kinda in the movies, but blink and you'll miss him. Ironically, the "nuked fridge" aspect at least makes the mismanaged train-wreck entertaining. That's why I kinda dig TROS as a funky collage of Post-it Notes at the end. Well, it's funny you say "perpetual balmy skies". The protagonist is roughed up by a couple of corporate thugs at night, in the rain, on a Blade Runner-esque industrial planet at the start of the first episode; then, at the end of the seventh, he is confronted by a shore trooper, roughed up by a K-2SO lookalike, and sentenced to prison or a labour camp -- in balmy Star Wars Florida. Neat bookends. There's definitely a lot of sneaking around and hobnobbing going on. Action scenes are sparse, cinematography is good, and the writing and acting are, for the most part, excellent. It is difficult to impugn the craftmanship and deportment of the series so far. Weird. I was only just reading some user reviews on Rotten Tomatoes for the Peter Jackson/Beatles documentary film "Get Back", right before clicking into this thread and seeing your post. The last one I read is literally as follows: "Boring, but interesting." Pretty much sums up "Andor", too. |
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Post by smittysgelato on Oct 22, 2022 4:35:24 GMT
CryogenicGo watch The Thief of Bagdad (1940). It is a Star Warsian delight that will purge your boredom entire.
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Post by smittysgelato on Oct 27, 2022 2:54:44 GMT
As I suspected, Luthen is involved with Saw. Mon is gonna have to wrestle the Rebellion away from those two because they are both sketchy AF. And...ALSO as suspected, but now confirmed...Cinta wears the pants in that relationship.
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 27, 2022 4:18:18 GMT
This was another well-directed episode. Unfortunately, "Andor" is totally wrapped up in its own self-seriousness, and despite expertly building tension, it has become a bit of a bore to me. It really isn't very SW-like at all -- and that, in my opinion, is a bad thing.
Doesn't help that I revisited and rewatched "The Rise Of Skywalker" the other night. Going back to "Andor" gave me whiplash. TROS is still just as fun, energetic, and gorgeous as the first time I saw it; "Andor", by comparison, is a major mood-killer.
Ugh. I just... Look, I understand the effort that has been put into this series, and I appreciate (I think) what it's trying to do, but it's pretty cold and oppressive, with nary a hint of humour, warmth, eccentricity, or cheer. It's not that it should have those things, necessarily, but it's rather grey and drawn-out without them. A bit of a fraud, actually.
I can certainly resonate to the solidity of the storytelling; and I see myself in Syril and Andor and their bleak predicaments. I mean, the insane overreach of the Empire reminds me of TFN, and Syril is like anyone who thinks they can suck up the moderators and will gain respect and recognition for doing so. Great plot thread. Is he finally going to join the rebels now? I guess I care about seeing where he'll end up. But then there's this filler component that this episode was straining to disguise. Yeah, the Imperial labour facility is suitably THX-like in appearance (although not really THX-like in tone; and completely lacking in all sardonicism and found-future obscurity), but the episode spends an awful lot of time there. Not so much to diminishing effect (all the scenes are, at least, well done), but I couldn't help but think: "Why am I watching this? What the hell is the point of it all?" Prison dramas are a dime-a-dozen. This is well-trodden cinematic and television-drama territory. Casting Andy Serkis was also a bit fourth-wall-breaking. And Diego Luna basically had one expression throughout the whole episode: he looked like he was constantly smelling cat shit.
I said, early on, that "Andor" was probably going to be carried by Luna's performance. I was wrong. It's people like Genevieve O'Reilly, Anton Lesser, Stellan Skarsgård, and Forest Whitaker that make it worth watching. The young rebels are mostly bland and boring; although I do like Vel's vulnerability played off against Cinta's ice-cold determination. Oh, and Adria Arjona (Bix) is a major hottie. If all else fails, you can usually rely on SW for some eye candy. Wait: Did I just call this SW? I return to my opening remarks. I'm trying to think: Why do the movies work? What holds my interest there; while, so far, these television excursions have mostly faltered? John Williams is one part of any reasonable answer. Got to be. Then the cinematography, the editing, the comic-book-like dialogue, the cosmic events, the chimerical interplay of people and place, the expert balancing of comedy and tragedy, the whole swashbuckling melodramatic flavour of it all, the underlying innocence of the story for all its grandiosity ("A simple tale about a boy, a girl, and a galaxy"), and, yeah... Plenty to keep returning to. "Andor" is incredibly monotone by comparison. Who cares about Ferrix and its shitty repeating streets and its CG-ed bell tower? Fark off.
Also, I only wanna see feet in Star Wars if it's Mon's or Padme's. Imagine an episode where awkward, sex-deprived senators are queuing up to massage Mon's feet and each paying handsomely to do so; where she just relaxes on her plush couch as the donations for her "charitable" causes just keep rolling in. Against that glittering Coruscant backdrop. Now that would be an episode of "Andor" worth watching on repeat.
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Post by smittysgelato on Oct 27, 2022 4:35:18 GMT
I give this comment a standing ovation.
I think this show would be easier to completely embrace if it did not have "Star Wars" in the title. I enjoy it for what it is, Cryo, but like you, I do keep wondering...Is it really Star Wars, tho?
I'm sitting here wondering when all of the Imperial lackeys are going to finally realize that the Empire is nobody's friend.
Forest looks like he is ABSOLUTELY possessed by a demon in this episode. It was AWESOME.
Star Wars has a deep love of children. It is a key ingredient.
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 27, 2022 5:03:09 GMT
I give this comment a standing ovation. We're like Mon's husband. We might be a bit morally corrupt, but we have a taste for the finer things in life.  Yeah, feels more like it is loosely based on Star Wars, rather than being a faithful, in-universe adaptation. Although, I suppose you could say that for all the Disney things, to varying degrees. Yep. It's a lesson many people still have yet to learn in the real-world, too. Syril's naivete is a huge character flaw. Of course, he isn't the only one. Cassian is shown to be quite naive, too. The only difference is that one thought they could escape the Empire and one thought they could work for Empire. The one very Star Warsian thing "Andor" has going for it is this pleasing symmetry and mirroring (as you noted before with the "binary sunset" ending to the third episode). One scene, but a very intense, Oscar-level performance. "Andor" is winging it a bit because of these great actors. You're right. I love the child-like elements. It makes the adult themes all the richer. And I feel proud to watch it and be a fan, knowing that young audiences get a lot out of it, too. "Andor" is definitely sticking a bit of a middle finger up to that. My love for the Saga will never leave me; but, right now, I can take or leave the television shows, and I don't know if that makes me happy or sad. |
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Post by smittysgelato on Oct 27, 2022 5:32:57 GMT
I've been rewatching old episodes of the Clone Wars. I love going back to that Prequelian world with child-like elements galore, such as the episode where the younglings obtain their lightsaber crystals. You might say George inherited his love for the child-like from Jesus. Don't tell anyone though, that might be considered Jesus smuggling. I was hoping she'd give me a twirl once she is done with her husband. It isn't looking too promising for those two. I mean...she can't do any worse at this point right?  |
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Post by Ingram on Oct 27, 2022 10:07:12 GMT
I'm all or nothing with Star Wars feeling wholly like Star Wars, which it hasn't since 2005. In the years following only Solo alone has achieved the closest vestigial tone while Rogue One offered a finite parameter of authentic Imperial theater before signing off with a brief, fleeting gesture to the OT at large. Otherwise, the Disney era has proven useless to that end, or worse: insultingly crass in its imitation.
Maybe that's why I haven't any such issue with Andor, as it continues to just not care. Yet I agree in how this latest episode is evincing a mild caution that the show has indeed plateaued. I'm okay with this level of storytelling ambition, though. I like plot. It doesn't have to be Tolstoy in its sophistication, but I like when plot is materialized like a hardworking little engine. The Aldhani heist and now Narkina 5 prison escape (presumably) indicates to me that the series is bent on sustaining itself -- Cassian's end, our primary surrogate -- with these sectional narrative contraptions that work like puzzle boxes or escape rooms; along the way allowing for some occasional, potentially nifty world-building. I think I've already referred to this show's chance at proceeding with airport novella rubrics, thus a 50-minute diversion in said vein that I can tune into once a week works for me. In short, you can't lose what you don't invest.
Oh, and Adria Arjona (Bix) is a major hottie. If all else fails, you can usually rely on SW for some eye candy. I give this comment a standing ovation.
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Post by Pyrogenic on Oct 27, 2022 17:13:39 GMT
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 27, 2022 19:12:35 GMT
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 27, 2022 20:12:49 GMT
I'm all or nothing with Star Wars feeling wholly like Star Wars, which it hasn't since 2005. In the years following only Solo alone has achieved the closest vestigial tone while Rogue One offered a finite parameter of authentic Imperial theater before signing off with a brief, fleeting gesture to the OT at large. Otherwise, the Disney era has proven useless to that end, or worse: insultingly crass in its imitation. I agree and disagree with that. I'll affirm right alongside you that "Solo" is the most old-school of the bunch and just an incredibly entertaining movie. "Rogue One" I can only describe as a righthonourablegentlemanwillnotonlyputuptaxesoninheritanceandpensionsandcorporations: It's, like... yeah, duh, what?, blah. Could be in that category of SW movie for me. Granted, that's the same category many fans probably put the sequels in. But, eh, TROS is diggable to me. I mean, Palpatine croakily declaring that "Nothing will stop the return of the Sith!" took me right back to him declaring the Galactic Empire in ROTS. Just as awesome and jammy. By contrast, nothing in "Andor" -- well, maybe Mon aside -- gives me much of a prequel feeling. Although, admittedly, it was cool seeing clone troopers in that little flashback in the previous episode.
Do I detect a note of disappointment there? You were late with your thoughts on this one!
I can certainly give "Andor" a few things. It's hard to deny there's an expert level of craftmanship on show here. And, so far, for every episode I've rewatched, I've enjoyed that episode more on a second viewing.
I totally get where you're coming from, but that's hardly a ringing endorsement. You know, another thing that struck me about this last episode was how repetitive it is. It might seem a bit snarky to quote a negative review on Rotten Tomatoes, but here we are:
I mean, ouch! But the guy has a point. Along with those monotonic elements, we also got Luthen's little shop on Coruscant AGAIN. The gloomy streets of Ferrix AGAIN. The ISB headquarters AGAIN. Mon at a dinner party in her apartment AGAIN. And when we went to a new planet in the second half, it was merely another rebel base set inside a cave. Oh, and there were plenty of shots of white prison interiors that looked like a slightly more expensive version of a 1960s episode of "Doctor Who". Okay, so this episode had its share of cinematic touches, yet it remained so obviously televisual. And this all added to my feeling that it was really just filler. Had a shorter season been commissioned, I think a lot of this fat would have been trimmed. Although less rushed and improbable in its circumstances, this eighth episode made me think of my reaction to the fourth episode of "Obi-Wan" -- the point where I began mentally checking out of the series, seeing it for the unimaginative rush-job it turned out to be.
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Post by smittysgelato on Oct 27, 2022 20:20:56 GMT
I actually don't think this episode is filler. We are getting to watch Cassian learn his lesson the hard way: you can't outrun the Empire, bitch. That's character development. Thank god they aren't rushing this one like they did with Obi-Wan.
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 27, 2022 20:46:18 GMT
I actually don't think this episode is filler. We are getting to watch Cassian learn his lesson the hard way: you can't outrun the Empire, bitch. That's character development. Thank god they aren't rushing this one like they did with Obi-Wan. Yeah, I'm going to watch this episode again, a little later, and see where it takes me. It's a long spiritual slog for Cassian, I suppose. Ironically, the white interiors convey a pure, heavenly feel, but that's one false paradise, alright. I sense Gilroy and company were also drawing a parallel with modern capitalism. Hey, look: Cassian has a cubicle with a bed, a toilet, and as much protein mixture as likes; all in clean surroundings with plenty of work "friends". I mean, sure, he has to work twelve hours a day, in brutal competition with the other groups, and they're routinely shocked and beaten for any disobedience or slacking. Oh, and you can't leave until your sentence is done (which may also be arbitrarily increased at any moment), but that's the price of "freedom", right? |
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Post by stampidhd280pro on Oct 27, 2022 23:31:16 GMT
It's okay to give up a little liberty for freedom. 😃
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Post by Ingram on Nov 2, 2022 9:39:25 GMT
Enjoyed the little callback in tonight's episode to A New Hope. It was one of those, not overtly iconic just coded like a 'magic eye' thing. One could easily miss it were their eyes darting down to the living room coffee table or just generally glazing over the scene without much focus, as is often the case with television.
Gonna test anyone here if they saw it. Seemed pretty obvious to me, but, you never know.
Hint: it's almost entirely a result of shot-design versus a prop or symbol etc.
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Post by smittysgelato on Nov 3, 2022 3:51:05 GMT
Enjoyed the little callback in tonight's episode to A New Hope. It was one of those, not overtly iconic just coded like a 'magic eye' thing. One could easily miss it were their eyes darting down to the living room coffee table or just generally glazing over the scene without much focus, as is often the case with television.
Gonna test anyone here if they saw it. Seemed pretty obvious to me, but, you never know.
Hint: it's almost entirely a result of shot-design versus a prop or symbol etc.
Door closes, camera follows to the floor, follows the officer walking down the hallway. |
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