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Post by Cryogenic on Apr 7, 2021 21:39:35 GMT
"Prejudiced" is the word you're looking for. Hmm. I think "prejudice" would require the absence of knowledge or prior experience; only a preconception. The Force Awakens alone is no small thing. It's the movie that set the stage -- a calculated first impression -- for the entire Disney/KK-run-Lucasfilm custodianship. The ST, at least, while finding some better footing in it's latter two sequels, never did anything to redefine the overall creative course that was established back in 2015 per said Episode. So for one to cash out within the first year's time, in the wake of The Force Awakens and Rogue One together, and having judged as much, well, I think "hasty" might be a fairer verdict. Hasty and perhaps just plain stubborn—insofar that Sub claims to being adamantly averse to seeing or hearing about ...the rest. If I spend a shitty two-week vacation in Tripoli (bad food, rude cab drivers, overpriced room & board etc.) and decide never to return, am I being prejudicial outright? Note: the above is merely a hypothetical and does not reflect my sincere views on Libyans nor their capital city. I'm sure it's a swell place and everything. Really. Obdurate, obstinate, ornery, indifferent, unyielding, unmoving, having strong boundaries, refusing to be duped again... Those words and terms are perhaps all better than an (ironically) loaded judgement like "prejudiced". Before going with the Jar Jar meme, I was going to post something similar to the above. Something along the lines of: "Leave the poor boy alone! He's already been bitten twice by Disney, having sampled the haute cuisine of TFA and R1. Not sure his alimentary canal can repel firepower of that magnitude a third time." As you implied, TFA was offered to the world as Disney's mission statement for Star Wars -- in many ways, the flagship product. If it made even one George Walton Lucas crumple up in despair, why should any fan of the man and his movies keep looking to Disney and hoping for better? They had one chance and they blew it. Further, in fairness to our dear webmaster, he's been encouraged to believe he cashed out (to use your robust turn-of-phrase) not a moment too soon, by the incessant handwringing and caterwauling that has defined the discussion space around these new entries since TLJ pompously thundered -- or clattered -- its way into the public sphere. A nasty slime of toxic judgementalism has also built up around Star Wars since Disney took it over. A few years ago, if you were against the films in some fashion, you were obviously ignorant at best, a cave troll or racist/sexist/jackbooted thug/nazi at worst. More recently, the needle seems to have begun pointing the other way, and now you must be those things if you defend the films, or don't work hard to push back against being deemed a "Reylo" (like that is automatically on a par with being a Holocaust denier or something). Very, very ugly every way around. Remember the days when Star Wars was just a fun movie with lasers, a giant walking dog, and so-so acting? |
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Post by Pyrogenic on Apr 7, 2021 22:59:34 GMT
Hmm. I think "prejudice" would require the absence of knowledge or prior experience; only a preconception. The Force Awakens alone is no small thing. It's the movie that set the stage -- a calculated first impression -- for the entire Disney/KK-run-Lucasfilm custodianship. The ST, at least, while finding some better footing in it's latter two sequels, never did anything to redefine the overall creative course that was established back in 2015 per said Episode. So for one to cash out within the first year's time, in the wake of The Force Awakens and Rogue One together, and having judged as much, well, I think "hasty" might be a fairer verdict. Hasty and perhaps just plain stubborn—insofar that Sub claims to being adamantly averse to seeing or hearing about ...the rest. If I spend a shitty two-week vacation in Tripoli (bad food, rude cab drivers, overpriced room & board etc.) and decide never to return, am I being prejudicial outright? Note: the above is merely a hypothetical and does not reflect my sincere views on Libyans nor their capital city. I'm sure it's a swell place and everything. Really. Obdurate, obstinate, ornery, indifferent, unyielding, unmoving, having strong boundaries, refusing to be duped again... Those words and terms are perhaps all better than an (ironically) loaded judgement like "prejudiced". Before going with the Jar Jar meme, I was going to post something similar to the above. Something along the lines of: "Leave the poor boy alone! He's already been bitten twice by Disney, having sampled the haute cuisine of TFA and R1. Not sure his alimentary canal can repel firepower of that magnitude a third time." As you implied, TFA was offered to the world as Disney's mission statement for Star Wars -- in many ways, the flagship product. If it made even one George Walton Lucas crumple up in despair, why should any fan of the man and his movies keep looking to Disney and hoping for better? They had one chance and they blew it. Further, in fairness to our dear webmaster, he's been encouraged to believe he cashed out (to use your robust turn-of-phrase) not a moment too soon, by the incessant handwringing and caterwauling that has defined the discussion space around these new entries since TLJ pompously thundered -- or clattered -- its way into the public sphere. A nasty slime of toxic judgementalism has also built up around Star Wars since Disney took it over. A few years ago, if you were against the films in some fashion, you were obviously ignorant at best, a cave troll or racist/sexist/jackbooted thug/nazi at worst. More recently, the needle seems to have begun pointing the other way, and now you must be those things if you defend the films, or don't work hard to push back against being deemed a "Reylo" (like that is automatically on a par with being a Holocaust denier or something). Very, very ugly every way around. Remember the days when Star Wars was just a fun movie with lasers, a giant walking dog, and so-so acting? "Prejudiced," as in making a "judgment in advance." It's specifically apt in this case, I think. And it's true. A Star Wars forum creator throwing The Last Jedi & The Rise of Skywalker under the bus without even being open to watching them...ever? It's one tiny manifestation of a monstrously bad idea. I didn't intend it to be a personal attack, but a critique of that "argument." We all are guilty of this at one point or another. I refuse to watch TV, for example. I watched it for years, but then I came to the subjective conclusion that I was wasting my time with it. To each their own, honestly. Do what you want. So, sorry it sounded harsh? But I nevertheless felt the urge to call it out because something about it BOTHERS me on several levels. I'm reminded of a printout sheet list thing that one of my best college professors created back in the day that details potential "enemies of the comic." It's a single page bullet-pointing Automatism, Reification, Fascism, Repression, Fundamentalism, and Ressentiment with some descriptive explanations of each. It's those elements I detected in that post. "The quick and easy path" of being willfully ignorant of one's own objects of derision. Could also be the complete opposite. |
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Post by Cryogenic on Apr 8, 2021 0:08:59 GMT
"Prejudiced," as in making a "judgment in advance." It's specifically apt in this case, I think. And it's true. A Star Wars forum creator throwing The Last Jedi & The Rise of Skywalker under the bus without even being open to watching them...ever? It's one tiny manifestation of a monstrously bad idea. More a decision than a judgement. Unfortunately, people make these kinds of "decisions" all the time. It is rather sad for a Star Wars forum creator to have that attitude, however. That said, this forum was set up as a haven for prequel fans who were being trolled by Disney fanatics (we were accused of being disgruntled, of applying double standards, of being envious of the "success" and "popularity" of the new films, or just then TFA, and even of being "conspiracy theorists" for accurately inferring George Lucas' basic opinion of the film). In an even more sickening move, we were even being told by Prequel Trilogy moderators (on TheForce.net) that our critical remarks toward Disney -- a multi-billion-dollar multimedia conglomerate -- weren't welcome. Maybe not all at once, and not without lying/scheming/backstabbing, but that's what happened. Like Lucas, we were pushed out and muzzled. It's no sin to be a minority. We are all minorities in various areas of our lives. It's sort of a contiguous category. Alas, on TFN, like virtually everywhere else where humans start to infest and build up a power structure, minority rights are not protected and minorities are often shunned or despised (often covertly rather than overtly). One would hope, of course, that Prequel Trilogy moderators would be on the side of prequel fans -- after all, do they not moderate a PT discussion space, and are they not fans of those films themselves? But no. The honest airing of one's own thoughts about Disney, even when far worse is allowed to be said about the prequels, even on the PT forum, is considered unpalatable, untenable, and ultimately: illegal. I do think we need to keep all of that in mind, even when certain remarks about the Disney movies on this place (I've reacted strongly to some of them) seem close-minded and are liable to rankle those of us who do try and see the good in the new films -- those of us who have, yes... actually bothered to watch them. The Sequel Trilogy, at least. It really is pretty damning that humans dismiss a whole bunch of things sight unseen, let alone when they openly brag about doing so. It's basically a form of snobbery, and snobbery could be considered a veiled form of ignorance. People are rarely generous when we want them to be. There is often the expectation we carry around with us that others should make some reasonable attempt to see the world as we do. In practice, people kinda suck at decently steering their attention in the ways we think they ought to. Many things in this world are not given a chance to really prove themselves. There is something grotesquely tragic about the human condition. |
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Post by Ingram on Apr 8, 2021 6:33:36 GMT
Four responses in, following Sub's minor-manifesto, it might be worth referencing some Lucas dialogue:
"If you're not with me, then you're my enemy!"
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes."
Two statements, two opposing sides, as absolutes. Maybe we're all dealing in absolutes. Actually, I've (re)watched everything Disney-era thus far, yet without coloring my self a "fan" either. So perhaps I'm the enlightened one here. You should all try to be more like me. I have the high ground.
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Post by Moonshield on Apr 8, 2021 6:50:19 GMT
Actually, I have only one problem with the sequels.
No, it isn't the story, or the acting, or something like that.
The problem is that the sequels ARE FULL OF HATRED.
And they didn't even try to hide it.
Someone wants me to like them?
I can't.
Even if I wanted to.
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Post by Cryogenic on Apr 8, 2021 9:27:50 GMT
Four responses in, following Sub's minor-manifesto, it might be worth referencing some Lucas dialogue: "If you're not with men, then you you're my enemy!"
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes." Freudian slip?  Pansexuality triggered!
I haven't seen "Solo", "The Mandalorian", or for that matter, "The Clone Wars" (I did apply effort to see the latter, but it ended up being cost-prohibitive).
Let's all be prejudiced and apathetic together! Except you, Ingram. You rock.
I think why Pyro is pissed is because he enjoys the medium of cinema a lot. And it's how Star Wars started (and, ooooooooh, my own bias showing, perhaps works best in?).
Actually, I have only one problem with the sequels. No, it isn't the story, or the acting, or something like that. The problem is that the sequels ARE FULL OF HATRED. And they didn't even try to hide it. Someone wants me to like them? I can't. Even if I wanted to.
I like you, Moonshield -- sometimes...  But that's a pretty staunch assertion. One could just as easily say they're full of love. A misplaced kind of love, maybe. But love nonetheless. |
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Post by Ingram on Apr 8, 2021 10:33:27 GMT
Four responses in, following Sub's minor-manifesto, it might be worth referencing some Lucas dialogue: "If you're not with men, then you you're my enemy!"
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes." Freudian slip? Pansexuality triggered! Sometimes I post drunk. There. I said it.
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Post by Moonshield on Apr 8, 2021 12:42:42 GMT
I like you, Moonshield -- sometimes... I like you every time)
Actually, our situation has really come from 20-year-old propaganda, which has led to bad consequences.
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Post by Subtext Mining on Apr 9, 2021 19:01:39 GMT
Call me what you will, everyone  fair enough, I'll own it. Ingram & Cryo have already said what I was going to, but to clarify further: my intent wasn't an indictment towards the episodes 8 & 9 films themselves, as I haven't seen them, but rather a statement on the fact that by autumn 2017 Disney had lost my confidence, my trust and my money. Truthfully, I was considering giving 8 & 9 a chance, but when it was announced that Abrams was coming back for 9 (shortly before TLJ was released and after firing the original director) I threw my hands up and just said forget it - based on my tastes regarding JJ's work and the Disney approach thus far. I felt at that point they'd reached my 3 strikes point, so to speak. I felt they weren't giving a SW ST the kind of slow-baked care and deliberate attention it deserved, especially since the creator wasn't involved. Say what you will, but in my mind the overall trajectory looked like a recipe for disaster coming our way and I chose to jump ship for the sake of my constitution  and from what I have heard story wise, I stand by that. Like Indiana Jones fans looking to film 5, I simply don't feel compelled. Maybe I'm missing out, but it's a food truck I just don't want to take another gamble with. I have vowed not to talk about 8 or 9 having chosen not to see them, but once in a blue moon, if the topic comes up I will state my stance on Disney. That's all that was meant to be. Or are we finding that line is too fine? A roundtable discussion had begun on which Disney movies we've seen and why we haven't seen the ones we haven't seen, and that was my two cents. I guess it's pretty extreme, but with that said I don't consider ST fans my enemy And as I've said to Pyro, I understand where he (and Cryo & Stamp, too) is coming from and I appreciate their views and contributions here. |
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Post by Cryogenic on Apr 9, 2021 22:19:26 GMT
Call me what you will, everyone fair enough, I'll own it. Very generous. I could never hate a man who gave the world this:  You mean the confidence, trust, and money you call friends?  I felt similar to you around the time. When they announced that Colin Trevorrow had been ditched and that J.J. Abrams was coming back, it became the straw that broke this kaadu's back -- well, for a while, anyway. I later managed, in my case, to hope for better with JJ's second bite of the cherry, after watching the teaser trailer and seeing Ian on stage at Star Wars Celebration 2019 (purely through online viewing, you understand), demanding with his Palpatine voice that they better "Roll it again". The thought of Palpatine returning and those lush Episode IX visuals -- I admit it: they got me good. Plus the story of each trilogy only really comes into focus in the final installment. TROS didn't disappoint (for me) on that front. But then, it's fair to say, many fans are still asking: what story? I didn't take any personal offence, but it was probably the way you blankly said you were "adamantly averse" to seeing or "even hearing" about 8 and 9. I certainly understand that viewpoint, but it could be equated to grumpy Luke telling Rey she's wasting her time and that she should get off his island. If you'd maybe qualified with a softener like, "I know there are fans of the movies here", it might not have seemed so rankly dismissive. That said, you made that comment back in February, and it was kinda stirring the pot (sorry, Pyro) to bring it up eight weeks later. It is, of course, good to be valued, no matter where one falls on the Star Wars sexuality spectrum.  |
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Post by Subtext Mining on Apr 10, 2021 6:14:23 GMT
Right, lesson learned. The sense of betrayal I got from Disney has left some blind spots of bitterness in me. Also, not an excuse but, people familiar with me should know that almost everything I say comes with a smirk of self-depreciating awareness of the irony that it is probably me who is the crazy one.
No, that's fair. He has every right. And actually it had been brought back up by another member more recently. I'm assuming it had been a smoldering cinder in Pyro's mind all along but it wasn't until it came back up a second time that he understandably felt compelled to speak out. ST fandom matters.
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Post by Cryogenic on Apr 10, 2021 16:25:40 GMT
Right, lesson learned. The sense of betrayal I got from Disney has left some blind spots of bitterness in me. Also, not an excuse but, people familiar with me should know that almost everything I say comes with a smirk of self-depreciating awareness of the irony that it is probably me who is the crazy one. Sure. But to back Pyro up on this one: your original statement reads as lethargic and self-contented. Like you're happy to not give the sequels the time of day. All too often, we now see people taking pride on the Internet in their own ignorance. I can understand why Pyro was rankled by it. I forgot that another member had brought it back up. Although their response wasn't included in Pyro's. Seemed like he was going straight for the jugular. Such a remark could be considered flamebait. Although Pryo likes to issue challenges for people to re-think their frames, you like self-deprecation, and I guess we're all a great big wacky family. |
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Post by Anthony on Apr 10, 2021 20:44:49 GMT
I think Subtext Mining made a sane choice. If you hate Disney Star Wars, it's better to move away than to become like those Fandom Menace sadomasochists who can't stop consuming it and being mad about it |
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on May 4, 2021 22:29:01 GMT
I think Subtext Mining made a sane choice. If you hate Disney Star Wars, it's better to move away than to become like those Fandom Menace sadomasochists who can't stop consuming it and being mad about it
Or you can simply take the piss out of it :
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Post by Cryogenic on May 4, 2021 22:57:10 GMT
I think Subtext Mining made a sane choice. If you hate Disney Star Wars, it's better to move away than to become like those Fandom Menace sadomasochists who can't stop consuming it and being mad about it Or you can simply take the piss out of it :
LOL!!! Spitting Image never fail! And that really says something, too. The Spitting Image people normally aim their satirical guns at the British establishment, or at annoying and presumptuous celebrity figures. I suppose it's almost becoming a bit of a cliche to bash Disney Woke Wars online, but that Black Yoda thing was pretty funny and also pretty meta! |
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Post by Cryogenic on May 4, 2021 23:32:25 GMT
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Post by mikeximus on May 5, 2021 5:48:56 GMT
@subtext Mining
A post of support In Subtext’s favor!
For what little it may be worth, I feel you don’t have to “own” anything nor owe anyone an explanation as to why you feel the way you do about the Sequel Trilogy.
There is not 1 person here that hasn’t dismissed a movie or TV series out of hand, upon seeing a trailer or Commercial for said movie or tv series/show. Passing judgement on a movie through a trailer is exactly why the movie industry puts trailers out, but, they hope that it will be “passing judgement” in the movies favor.
There is not 1 person here that hasn’t seen a trailer and said to themselves that they have no interest in seeing that movie, or even said it looks like garbage, and they won’t spend their time or money on that movie.
Your time is important to you, your money is important to you. How you spend those things, based off your judgements, is what is important to you. Expressing why you feel the way you do about the Sequel Trilogy is important to you. How you came to those conclusions is important to you. I don’t think it’s right you have to censor yourself on how you express yourself because others might not like what your genuine feelings are. I mean.. that’s kind of why most of us are here and not in TFN anymore, because we were expected to censor ourselves at the behest of the feelings of others, when we couldn’t, or wouldn’t do that... we were banned.
The lurking vibe of “you shouldn’t judge a book by it’s cover/binding”, IMHO, does not apply to you or your situation of dismissing the last two movies of the ST. Judging a book by it’s cover means you literally do not know anything about the contents of the book beyond the color of it’s cover/binding or rudimentary graphic depictions that might be on said cover.
You looked at the cover of the book, you read what amounts to the first handful or one third of chapters of the book (TFA). You, presumably, did the equivalent of quickly skimming the rest the book by watching trailers and reading spoilers. You found the rest of the book to be lacking, not worthy of your time, support, or any further monetary investment. Just because someone slapped the Star Wars title on something does not mean you owe it more than you feel it deserves.
As I said, just a quick post of support for you, your opinion, your judgements.
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Post by mikeximus on May 5, 2021 8:26:29 GMT
An interesting tweet from the official Star Wars Account:
Not one of the major ST characters represented. They at least gove the PT a nod with Maul and the Republic era star destroyers (Venators). Of course it is lopsided OT, but, no Rey? No Finn? No kylo to at least represent the ST? Wonder if Disney is feeling the way Subtext feels?
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Post by Anthony on May 5, 2021 9:43:10 GMT
They did another "saga poster" with the sequel characters at the front though  |
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Post by mikeximus on May 5, 2021 10:39:37 GMT
They did another "saga poster" with the sequel characters at the front though And even there, the other trilogies are far more represented than the ST in the other depiction they posted. With that said, I was having some fun at the expense of the ST. No one should seriously think i was actually suggesting that Disneys trying to distance itself from the ST. |
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Pansexuality triggered!
fair enough, I'll own it.
and from what I have heard story wise, I stand by that.
