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Post by Cryogenic on Mar 19, 2021 20:37:05 GMT
I will need to watch those videos to address the main topic/pivot: Was JJ Abrams the chief architect/lead criminal in convincing Disney/LFL to bin Lucas' treatments? However, to address your post, Ingram ... I maintain to this very minute that any contentions I have over the Sequel Trilogy (along with spinoffs and shows), none of it has to do with the canning of Lucas' story treatments. When-and-wherever such storylines are the principle of discussion, I would've rather Lucas himself directed them, or served as an executive producer with a filmmaker of his choosing at the helm. But surely: Lucas' treatments, while hardly constituting the dense, discursive tapestry of a finished movie, or even a screenplay, are more or less the foundation or roadmap for the sequel or successor trilogy he hoped (and seemingly believed) they would make? Or to use another analogy: they threw out the rulebook and invented their own game (less esoteric, nuanced, and complex than the one they inherited and were expected to expand upon)? I get what you're saying, though: Lucas' story treatments are really only relevant (to you?) if Lucas himself was there to realise them? Otherwise it's all just cricket (or, indeed, crickets)?
That would certainly be interesting. But since Star Wars has lost its lodestar -- the heavenly father has retreated and now watches "his world" at a distance -- they would never be "Star Wars" in quite the way that Star Wars was Star Wars under Lucas. I mean, Lucas was the guy calling all the shots not too long ago, but that past is now fast receding. It's difficult to comprehend quite how much he accomplished; and how much has changed since (and how much is likely to change in the future). What's perhaps more likely is some "alternate" interpretation that might not even come under the banner of Star Wars at all. Some people must have seen those treatments; and eventually they'll probably leak out to a wider set of readers.
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Post by thephantomcalamari on Mar 20, 2021 19:32:04 GMT
However.. a group of Mandalorians intervened and saved Djarin from the Separatist attack.This was not just any group of Mandalorians though. This was not the peace loving group that wanted neutrality during the Clone Wars. The group that saved Djarin were the extremists. Death Watch, the same Death Watch from TCW (you know the show that Lucas saw as 100% the same as his movies, according to some). The same extremists that hung onto and still practiced the old warrior ways of Mandalore. That wore the old style Mandalorian armor. The Boba Fett armor.. gasp... Notice the insignia.. It is the insignia of Clan Vizla (from TCW which according to some, Lucas saw as 100% the same as his movies), or Death Watch. This didn't escape anyone's notice. The issue is that the extremist TCW Mandalorians are shown to be racially homogenous, xenophobic, and homicidally disdainful of those they consider weak--they're space Spartans. Many of them accept Maul's takeover because he defeated the previous leader in combat according to Mandalorian custom, but even this causes a schism, with Bo-Katan and her followers refusing to follow an "outsider." There's absolutely no indication that this is the kind of group that would adopt helpless orphans from other cultures and races. That was a contrivance Favreau and co. came up with to make the Mandalorians less ideologically objectionable to audiences and to find a way to retcon Jango back into being a Mandalorian. The traditionalist Mandalorians are social Darwinist villains, not Klingon-esque noble warriors. They're walking technological death machines. But instead Favreau turned them into quasi-Jedi and made them into one of the linchpins of Star Wars going forward. Now everyone loves the Mandalorians and their high-tech, weapon-obsessed culture. It's the Iron Man cult transplanted to Star Wars. |
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Post by jppiper on Mar 24, 2021 15:03:53 GMT
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Mar 31, 2021 23:01:52 GMT
I've only seen TFA and R1. I think there's a name for us, Rinzlerians or something? I'm adamantly averse to seeing, or even hearing about any of the others.
Oh wow, that's a bombshell.
You know, it's not simply the barrages of Tweets, or the 3 hour long movie reviews, or the obscure forum posts in which we rant. Sometimes people quietly skip a film, and that's it - they've no intention of informing everyone in the whole wide world of their decision.
Or to give an analogy I was told by an elder during childhood: "sometimes the saddest, most upset people at a funeral aren't crying."
I get the sense you got burned really hard with these Sequels. Real hard. As I did too, of course, although I had the misfortune of deluding myself that the whole thing would all be repaired, rejuvenated and rainbows and what have you, up to the very very end. I look back now and wonder what the hell I was doing, what was I smoking, and I don't think I'll ever closely follow the news of an upcoming SW film ever again. It's not worth the rollercoaster ride; it's not good for the mind.
Maybe I need to take a leave out of your book. Maybe the entire fanbase does.
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Post by Anthony on Apr 1, 2021 0:56:44 GMT
With the exception of Rebels and Resistance, I liked all the films and series produced by Disney/Lucasfilm. I even think the sequel trilogy is better than the OT lol
The only downside is the lack of tribute to the PT. Obi-Wan Kenobi is a good step forward but it's not enough
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Post by Cryogenic on Apr 1, 2021 6:38:10 GMT
I even think the sequel trilogy is better than the OT lol That statement is going to melt a few minds around here!   |
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Post by Ingram on Apr 1, 2021 10:44:44 GMT
I even think the sequel trilogy is better than the OT lol That statement is going to melt a few minds around here! .I'm assuming my synapses opted out, because I simply read it as: I even think the ußtrltkv rtsóe eyð lthregre genrhl qrt t s.
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Apr 1, 2021 18:36:32 GMT
That would certainly be interesting. But since Star Wars has lost its lodestar -- the heavenly father has retreated and now watches "his world" at a distance -- they would never be "Star Wars" in quite the way that Star Wars was Star Wars under Lucas. I mean, Lucas was the guy calling all the shots not too long ago, but that past is now fast receding. It's difficult to comprehend quite how much he accomplished; and how much has changed since (and how much is likely to change in the future). What's perhaps more likely is some "alternate" interpretation that might not even come under the banner of Star Wars at all. Some people must have seen those treatments; and eventually they'll probably leak out to a wider set of readers.
Now that is food for thought. You've got me a little interest in setting up a thread to such a matter. That is, the significance of the Lucas era.
Cherish your memories, put pen to paper and perhaps George Lucas may live forever.
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Post by Cryogenic on Apr 1, 2021 19:15:11 GMT
That would certainly be interesting. But since Star Wars has lost its lodestar -- the heavenly father has retreated and now watches "his world" at a distance -- they would never be "Star Wars" in quite the way that Star Wars was Star Wars under Lucas. I mean, Lucas was the guy calling all the shots not too long ago, but that past is now fast receding. It's difficult to comprehend quite how much he accomplished; and how much has changed since (and how much is likely to change in the future). What's perhaps more likely is some "alternate" interpretation that might not even come under the banner of Star Wars at all. Some people must have seen those treatments; and eventually they'll probably leak out to a wider set of readers. Now that is food for thought. You've got me a little interest in setting up a thread to such a matter. That is, the significance of the Lucas era. Cherish your memories, put pen to paper and perhaps George Lucas may live forever.
I'll leave it for you to decide how that thread should go. George's Emporium. A place, perhaps, where people can reflect on the significance of the "Lucas Era" and what it means to them -- and how very, very underrated and underappreciated that entire epoch still is. |
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Apr 1, 2021 21:02:10 GMT
Now that is food for thought. You've got me a little interest in setting up a thread to such a matter. That is, the significance of the Lucas era. Cherish your memories, put pen to paper and perhaps George Lucas may live forever.
I'll leave it for you to decide how that thread should go. George's Emporium. A place, perhaps, where people can reflect on the significance of the "Lucas Era" and what it means to them -- and how very, very underrated and underappreciated that entire epoch still is.
A place, perhaps, for me to listen more than to tell, for I was born in the 90s. I remember the Prequel Trilogy era, and yet the Original Trilogy period is like a folklore to me.
To the next generation, the entire Lucas era will be a folklore. Let that one sink in.
Realise what a privilege you've had to experience George Lucas' Star Wars, and all the culture surrounding it. Be grateful. Your memories will soon be envied.
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Post by Cryogenic on Apr 2, 2021 0:10:44 GMT
I'll leave it for you to decide how that thread should go. George's Emporium. A place, perhaps, where people can reflect on the significance of the "Lucas Era" and what it means to them -- and how very, very underrated and underappreciated that entire epoch still is. A place, perhaps, for me to listen more than to tell, for I was born in the 90s. I remember the Prequel Trilogy era, and yet the Original Trilogy period is like a folklore to me. To the next generation, the entire Lucas era will be a folklore. Let that one sink in. Realise what a privilege you've had to experience George Lucas' Star Wars, and all the culture surrounding it. Be grateful. Your memories will soon be envied.
I was born in 1983 -- same year as my "avatar" Adam Driver. I don't remember the buzz surrounding the OT. Truth be told, I think the OT had faded from pop culture a little bit, by the end of the 1980s. It was old hat. A yellowing newspaper. However, Star Wars began to catch a second wind in the early 90s, when Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy made waves. The first entry, "Heir To The Empire", in May 1991, was an unexpected hit that sold out in its first week in stores, won strong reviews, and stayed on the New York Times bestseller list for 29 weeks. Zahn's trilogy began a renaissance. Many other Star Wars books and comics were published and sold well in the next few years, including reprints of the original novelisations and the venerable "Art Of" books for the Original Trilogy (with successors following for the prequels, sequels, and spinoff movies), and iconic Star Wars video games like the "Super Star Wars" platforming games for the Super Nintendo and the "X-Wing" flight simulator and "Rebel Assault" shoot-em-up titles for the burgeoning Personal Computer market. There were also new lines of Micro Machines playsets in the toy market, and Kenner relaunched its Star Wars toy line in 1995. And in the most thrilling development of all: George Lucas announced he was developing a new Star Wars trilogy, our beloved prequels, in October 1993 in Variety Magazine -- scarcely six months after the release of the concluding chapter of Zahn's sequel novel trilogy (in a way: the "sequels" begat the prequels). Star Wars had returned! Of course, you could say that Star Wars had never really gone away. It was merely in hibernation. Its second phase in the 1990s confirmed the indelible impression the Original Trilogy had left on a generation of filmgoers, nerds, and dreamers in the late 70s and early 80s. My own encounter with Star Wars -- that is: my own concrete (or viscous) recollection of first becoming consciously aware of Star Wars as a thing: a story, a world, a phenomenon -- might have been seeing C-3PO on the front of a video game magazine cover in the early-to-mid 1990s. I can't even be sure it's a real memory. It's just... images, really... feelings. I may have even seen a grainy, grubby version of the original film on television around then. And I seem to recall TESB airing and liking that one a lot. I immediately felt that the second movie had a lot of atmosphere. I also remember some early excitement when the Special Editions were coming out and I had a copy of a CD-ROM called Making Magic which was a free, behind-the-scenes promotional item about the buffing-up of the films (primarily SW/ANH). Star Wars on my computer (which, back then, was a recent addition to our family household)? Cool! The anticipation for "Star Wars: Episode I" was through the roof as 1999, the end of the millennium, approached. I taped the first trailer from a BBC children's programme called Electric Circus (a "sub" programme that was part of "Live And Kicking" -- remember that every Saturday morning?). I think it was the only film trailer I ever deliberately recorded onto VHS. I later got some stereo audio leads and hooked my VCR to the soundcard inside my PC, allowing me to digitally record the audio. While the trailer was available online, it was in pretty crummy Apple QuickTime video quality (back in the dial-up era) -- even DVD-ROMs (never mind high-definition video services) were still a few years away. To me, the audio sounded fantastic when I recorded it from my VCR, and I listened to it a lot and even did some sound editing mash-ups, using different bits 'n' pieces I'd recorded from several different tapes and programmes. I had a little "sound editing" fetish for a while. For a short time, I was an aspiring Ben Burtt/Matthew Wood! (My brother remains astounded I didn't do more with this part-time hobby). Around then, I also visited the official Star Wars website ( as it then was) and grabbed virtually every still image of Episode I I could find. I distinctly remember the shot of little Anakin inside his little hovel. I wove the gathered images into a slideshow (video editing was barely possible on PCs back then) and set the pictures to music (I think it was Moby's version of the James Bond theme from "Tomorrow Never Dies" -- slightly incongruous, but seemed to fit at the time!). It was satisfying to play that slideshow back -- perhaps more times than is healthy! Then came the film and the titanic splash (pun intended?) that it made on everything and everyone. Then came two more prequels, intermixed with 9/11, LOTR, Spider-Man, Harry Potter, The Matrix trilogy, King Kong, Batman beginning, Superman returning, et al. But darn, that's a whole other thread. Your other thread -- where I could probably replicate and expand on all this! It was a fantastic time to be digging or getting into Star Wars in the 1990s. It still is if you want it to be. But the prequels are where Star Wars came of age for me. I have a lot of nostalgia for that time, I suppose -- and I can hardly separate my own "coming of age" from my attachment to the films themselves. Far too many an hour (which turned into weeks, months, and then years) was spent thinking about the darn prequels, or logging into TFN (and other places) to talk Star Wars! When I should have been doing college work or working more vigorously to better myself in other ways. Star Wars can literally became a person's life, don't ya know? It's crazy how something so relatively small (all the films -- the "main attraction" of Star Wars for me -- can be watched, back-to-back, in less than two days) can unfurl like a beautiful lotus flower in the muddy pool of one's own mind. It's been a strange journey, and for all its twists and turns (where I should now be exhausted or willing to quit cold), I don't think Star Wars is quite done with me yet. I'm like Anakin/Kylo chasing down those immortality tokens. Or I'm Han wanting one more ride in the Falcon. We can probably all say the same. |
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Post by Cryogenic on Apr 2, 2021 0:33:31 GMT
A double post -- or conspicuous post-script -- here! Can't resist. And in the most thrilling development of all: George Lucas announced he was developing a new Star Wars trilogy, our beloved prequels, in October 1993 in Variety Magazine -- scarcely six months after the release of the concluding chapter of Zahn's sequel novel trilogy (in a way: the "sequels" begat the prequels). I originally wrote that Lucas announced the prequels in June 1994, based on discovery of the following article. That appears to have been an error. Nevertheless, the final paragraph of the article carries a knock-down punch: Perhaps a sentiment that many have started to share or grasp, or forced themselves to grapple with, in a whole new way in recent years. A valedictory to the "George Lucas Era" we all find so vital and enchanting. Who says studio chiefs aren't (sometimes) ahead of their time?  |
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Post by mikeximus on Apr 2, 2021 15:05:32 GMT
However, I have pointed this out to Alexrd in another conversation about that quote. It is not the full quote. Why people cannot use full quotes is beyond me... I can use full quotes. What the full quote here doesn't do is provide the context of the conversation. That's why I truncate it to point out solely the Lucas portion. Because the context of the full quote is Filoni trying to tone down the EU fans' outrage and controversy over the Mandalorians at the time. He's trying to play both sides, so he says that the EU stories and portrayals "absolutely exist" and "did happen", when that's obviously not the case at all. Something he expanded upon in other interviews at the time. The Mandalorians aren't mercenaries. They aren't guns for hire. Jango and Boba were. That was one of the main distinctions to George. The Mandalorians were soldiers, supercommandos. Their portrayal in the EU is not what George envisioned. They are a regimented society. They are uniform, not customized. They fight for their nation and history, not for money. And now Filoni is doing the same thing with The Mandalorian. He's pandering to the EU portrayals and what was established there, thus at the expense of George's vision. Once again we have the vagabond gun for hire, the Boba Fett wannabe. And they know it. It's done on purpose. They are taking advantage of the Boba Fett appeal, so they created their own "Boba Fett In Everything But Name". Not only that, they turned all the Mandalorians into the Boba Fett fan club they already were in the EU. OK.. so lets pump the brakes on the whole “Lucas’s vision” narrative. We are all huge Lucas fans here, so we all know that Lucas’s “visions” change every time the wind changes direction. This is why we go from situations where Luke is a female and Han is a green alien to what we get in the movies. The best we can do is follow the evolution of his “visions” with what little information we have. SO the Filoni quote. In the video, the whole context of the quote is that he is talking about what he and Lucas discussed when Lucas walks into his office and says he wants to work on something involving Mandalorians and what is a Mandalorian. This is clear when Filoni says he has the huge pile of material on Mandaloarians that he pushes towards Lucas. Furthermore, in the full quote, in the section we see you cut off, we see mention of the great cataclysm that turns Mandalore into a barren wasteland.. this makes it into TCW. Filoni talks of the wars between the Jedi and Mandalorians, which makes it into the TCW. So you’re assertion that the stuff you cutoff is only Filoni talking about and appeasing EU fanboys is not true because that stuff made it into TCW. The same TCW, that you have stated (using yet another partial quote), Lucas sees as no different as his movies. You are doing a whole lot of speaking for Lucas in your above response. Again, the best we can do is look at the evolution of Lucas’s “visions”. When it comes to Mandalorians and Boba Fett, these two visions are separate but connected. Just like anything that Lucas has done, visions start as one thing, become another, get thrown away, come back as something else etc etc etc etc. Lucas had intentions of using a Bounty Hunter/mercenary as far back as some of his early scripts for A New Hope. When he was tweaking his “vision” of that movie, he had a character named Prince Valorum that was a sort of bounty hunter/merc that was going to track down the main good guys. This “vision” eventually evolves into Darth Vader. Lucas’s original concept of the super commandoes were that of an army of tens of thousands of “super stormtroopers” as Rinzler calls them in his Making of ESB book. Super Commandoes is what Joe Johnston calls them in his concept artwork. Others have called them “super-troopers”. Johnston, along with McQuarrie, developed the look of the super commandos that would eventually turn into a singular BH known as Boba Fett. Johnston is on the record as saying he has no memory of anyone ever calling the super trooper/Boba Fett armor… Mandalorian armor. Joe Johnston has said: www.starwars.com/news/empire-at-40-joe-johnston-boba-fett-interview#:~:text=%E2%80%9CGeorge%20%5BLucas%5D%20wanted%20a,an%20army%20of%20super%20troopers. The super commandos, super troopers, were supposed to be an army of specialized Stormtroopers. This is clear from the concept art that Johnston worked on and by Johnston’s own words. www.starwars.com/news/empire-at-40-joe-johnston-boba-fett-interview#:~:text=%E2%80%9CGeorge%20%5BLucas%5D%20wanted%20a,an%20army%20of%20super%20troopers. This is why the concept art of the super commandos wearing all white, why the prototype armor was all white. In 1979, Bantha Tracks #5 says of Boba Fett and his armor: www.jeditemplearchives.com/specialreports/banthatracks/archives/banthatracks05.pdfAgain, no mention of Mandalorians, and now they are called Imperial Shocktroopers. Assuming that this info is from Lucas it shows, as we all know, a changing vision of what those super commandos are or were. We go from 40,000 super commandos, to not many being left because they were wiped out by the Jedi. The reason why we go from imperial shocktroopers/super commandos/super-stormtroopers/super troopers to Boba Fett is a matter of practicality.. or in other words.. money. It seems that the suits of armor were just too damned expensive to make the amount Lucas wanted. The suits were far more detailed and intricate than the normal Stormtroopers. Thus the idea for an army of super Stormtroopers was scrapped and the armor was reused for a singular Bounty Hunter named Boba Fett: www.starwars.com/news/empire-at-40-joe-johnston-boba-fett-interview#:~:text=%E2%80%9CGeorge%20%5BLucas%5D%20wanted%20a,an%20army%20of%20super%20troopers. One thing still is missing with all this.. the word Mandalorian. The first known use of the word Mandalorian (as far as I know) came from the Empire Strikes Back Sketchbook, which describes Fett’s armor as coming from a squad of super commandos from the Mandalore system. That was it. No mention of their society, their beliefs, their warrior ways etc etc etc. Nothing at all. So what we have is Lucas scraping his super commando/super Stormtrooper concept because of money, but, re-using the visuals for a Bounty Hunter he had been toying around with since A New Hope. However, in Lucas’s mind, that Bounty Hunter was always more than just a Bounty Hunter that was wearing someone else’s armor. Lucas has been quoted at least a couple times mentioning that he always felt that Fett was connected to the Stormtroopers in some way. In the August 2002 issue of Star Wars Insider there is this passage from an interview with Lucas: SO we have here Lucas saying that he “always” saw Fett’s back story as him being connected to the Stormtroopers. What is that possible connection? On the DVD commentary for Attack Of The Clones, Lucas says the following: So here we have mention that Lucas, at least for some time, had “envisioned” Boba as being connected to the Stormtroopers. Which makes sense as we know that Fett’s conceptual origins are tied in with those “super Stormtroopers”. So all these behind the scenes interviews, concepts, quotes. Nothing about Mandalorians except a vague mention in a sketchbook in 1980. So where did Mandalorian come from? Well, Filoni had asked Lucas this question… SO we find out that Lucas did come up with the name Mandaore, however, it was more of a placeholder name that was even at one time the name for Alderaan. It just happened to eventually stick with the origin of Boba Fett’s armor. No history of the people, no history of the society, just hey, it was a name that stuck for some group of super Stormtroopers that were working for the Empire. That is not to say that as the decades went on, Lucas didn’t eventually build on that, however, the idea of A, B, C, is what Lucas envisioned for the Mandalorians is really a far-fetched idea. Which brings me back to the original problem here… You are using what Lucas envisioned the Mandalorians to be as a hammer to beat up on the new Mandalorian show. As I have said before, I enjoy the show, it is not perfect. As anyone knows, I have been extremely critical of Disney Star Wars. The problem I have with your statements is that you seem to want to have it both ways. First you are speaking for Lucas's vision, when there doesn't seem to be much info on Lucas's vision.Than you want to argue that Mandalorian is bad because it goes against this “vision” that Lucas has for Mandalorians, when we aren’t sure what that vision is or was. Yet at the same time argue that the show, The Clone Wars, according to you, is 100% canon from the perspective of George Lucas. You even go so far as to use a partial quote in which you affirm that Lucas sees the show no different (canonically) than his movies. Well, the problem here is that the thing you are complaining about with the Mandalorian, that they do not follow Lucas’s vision, can be said about the Mandalorians in TCW!! The Mandalorians in TCW are pacifists. They are not Spartans, they are not a military race. They left their warrior ways behind as it destroyed their planet. In fact, the group that is trying to bring back the old ways are terrorists. They kill innocents in order to get what they want, they align themselves with criminals and the Sith in order to get what they want. But, they can’t be mercenaries in order to get what they want? Those Mandalorians are in fact.. vagabonds. They are exiled from their home. They do in fact customize their armor. Some have different helmets, some have different insignias, in fact one of the Death Watch has the famous Mandalorian/Mythosaur skull on his chest in TCW. (Season 5 Episode 15). They change their paint schemes to reflect their leader, when Maul takes over Death Watch, they change their paint to a red. So which is it? Is it bad or good to portray Mandalorians in a way that is not exactly the “Spartan like”, “militaristic” way that you claim Lucas envisioned? Because TCW does not portray them as such. However, you claim TCW is in line with Lucas’s vision, that Lucas sees the show as no different than his movies. You can’t have it both ways. The Mandalorians in the show, The Mandalorian are vagabonds. They clearly are an off shoot of the Death Watch clan from TCW as it was Death Watch that saved "Mando" from the separatists attack. So the Mandalorians that we see in the show "The Mandalorian" are in a very similar situation as we see Death Watch in TCW (which according to you, Lucas says is no different than his movies). They are a group of exiled extremists that are trying to hang onto their old ways the best they can, while doing what they can to survive. Their armor is not true "Mandalorian Armor" as we see Mando's pre-beskar armor falls apart quite regularly. Once he gets his true beskar armor, there is very little customization, besides his insignia. I am not saying you have to like the show. I am just trying to figure out by what standard you are using for your stance that if it does not fit what Lucas envisioned, when according to what you say Lucas envisioned the Mandalorians to be, neither show fits.. Than it is no good. |
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Post by mikeximus on Apr 2, 2021 16:12:36 GMT
However.. a group of Mandalorians intervened and saved Djarin from the Separatist attack.This was not just any group of Mandalorians though. This was not the peace loving group that wanted neutrality during the Clone Wars. The group that saved Djarin were the extremists. Death Watch, the same Death Watch from TCW (you know the show that Lucas saw as 100% the same as his movies, according to some). The same extremists that hung onto and still practiced the old warrior ways of Mandalore. That wore the old style Mandalorian armor. The Boba Fett armor.. gasp... Notice the insignia.. It is the insignia of Clan Vizla (from TCW which according to some, Lucas saw as 100% the same as his movies), or Death Watch. This didn't escape anyone's notice. The issue is that the extremist TCW Mandalorians are shown to be racially homogenous, xenophobic, and homicidally disdainful of those they consider weak--they're space Spartans. Many of them accept Maul's takeover because he defeated the previous leader in combat according to Mandalorian custom, but even this causes a schism, with Bo-Katan and her followers refusing to follow an "outsider." There's absolutely no indication that this is the kind of group that would adopt helpless orphans from other cultures and races. That was a contrivance Favreau and co. came up with to make the Mandalorians less ideologically objectionable to audiences and to find a way to retcon Jango back into being a Mandalorian. The traditionalist Mandalorians are social Darwinist villains, not Klingon-esque noble warriors. They're walking technological death machines. But instead Favreau turned them into quasi-Jedi and made them into one of the linchpins of Star Wars going forward. Now everyone loves the Mandalorians and their high-tech, weapon-obsessed culture. It's the Iron Man cult transplanted to Star Wars. So.. they're xenophobic, except many of them accept an alien, outsider, taking over, and some don't... So in other words, even in a group of extremists, individuals believe and act in individual ways? Even in a group of extremists, individuals will turn on their fellow extremists for their individual beliefs, no matter how much their culture has been pounded into their heads. Even in a group of xenophobes, they will allow and accept an alien outsider lead them as their personal levels of belief will allow them to put one belief or custom over an another, to the point of actually killing their own people, other Mandalorians, by the order of this alien outsider leader... But their xenophobic? So your argument is to point to a singular group of extremists (which obviously have varying degrees of belief systems), which you yourself call them, and than push that out to the larger group, and all other groups within the culture? Isn't that like saying that Muslim extremist groups are the embodiment and basis of all others within the Muslim culture/religion? Or can we just use a little bit of intelligence and understand that an extremist group is just that.. extreme. That even in an extremist group, some are more extreme than others.. which is exactly what we see in TCW. You know the show you argued Lucas sees as no different than his movies. So in the show "The Mandalorian" you have a problem with an extremist group, being a little less extreme than other extremists groups? Even though we see that exact same thing play out in TCW? You have a problem with the show "The Mandalorian" because this group of Mandalorians are picking and choosing their beliefs systems (foundlings, removing helmets), belief systems that other Mandalorians might not agree with... which is exactly what we see happen in TCW. You know the show you argued Lucas sees as no different than his movies. Or can we just understand that the show is not about Mandalorian culture (it's a back drop to the actual story), but, more about an individual that is struggling with what he inherently knows is right and wrong, against that of his upbringing or the experiences that made him who he was to that point. You know like a Han Solo, who was a selfish asshole, right up until the point he wasn't. Oh.. and if memory serves me right, I believe Lucas has referred to Boba Fett as his Iron Man.. I am not 100% certain on that. I do not have the quote in front of me, but, in my travels I vaguely remember that he said it somewhere. I of course could be wrong... EDIT: Found it.. the great thing here is that this interview with Lucas is from 2020... Yeah.. Lucas admitting that Fett is his Iron Man.. ooooops.... www.empireonline.com/movies/features/george-lucas-the-empire-strikes-back-interview/ |
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Post by thephantomcalamari on Apr 2, 2021 16:21:01 GMT
This didn't escape anyone's notice. The issue is that the extremist TCW Mandalorians are shown to be racially homogenous, xenophobic, and homicidally disdainful of those they consider weak--they're space Spartans. Many of them accept Maul's takeover because he defeated the previous leader in combat according to Mandalorian custom, but even this causes a schism, with Bo-Katan and her followers refusing to follow an "outsider." There's absolutely no indication that this is the kind of group that would adopt helpless orphans from other cultures and races. That was a contrivance Favreau and co. came up with to make the Mandalorians less ideologically objectionable to audiences and to find a way to retcon Jango back into being a Mandalorian. The traditionalist Mandalorians are social Darwinist villains, not Klingon-esque noble warriors. They're walking technological death machines. But instead Favreau turned them into quasi-Jedi and made them into one of the linchpins of Star Wars going forward. Now everyone loves the Mandalorians and their high-tech, weapon-obsessed culture. It's the Iron Man cult transplanted to Star Wars. So.. they're xenophobic, except many of them accept an alien, outsider, taking over, and some don't... So in other words, even in a group of extremists, individuals believe and act in individual ways? Even in a group of extremists, individuals will turn on their fellow extremists for their individual beliefs, no matter how much their culture has been pounded into their heads. Even in a group of xenophobes, they will allow and accept an alien outsider lead them as their personal levels of belief will allow them to put one belief or custom over an another, to the point of actually killing their own people, other Mandalorians, by the order of this alien outsider leader... But their xenophobic? So your argument is to point to a singular group of extremists (which obviously have varying degrees of belief systems), which you yourself call them, and than push that out to the larger group, and all other groups within the culture? Isn't that like saying that Muslim extremist groups are the embodiment and basis of all others within the Muslim culture/religion? Or can we just use a little bit of intelligence and understand that an extremist group is just that.. extreme. That even in an extremist group, some are more extreme than others.. which is exactly what we see in TCW. You know the show you argued Lucas sees as no different than his movies. So in the show "The Mandalorian" you have a problem with an extremist group, being a little less extreme than other extremists groups? Even though we see that exact same thing play out in TCW? You have a problem with the show "The Mandalorian" because this group of Mandalorians are picking and choosing their beliefs systems (foundlings, removing helmets), belief systems that other Mandalorians might not agree with... which is exactly what we see happen in TCW. You know the show you argued Lucas sees as no different than his movies. Or can we just understand that the show is not about Mandalorian culture (it's a back drop to the actual story), but, more about an individual that is struggling with what he inherently knows is right and wrong, against that of his upbringing or the experiences that made him who he was to that point. You know like a Han Solo, who was a selfish asshole, right up until the point he wasn't. Some of them accept Maul because he proved he was stronger by murdering their previous leader. Some of them reject Maul because he's an outsider. What this shows is an ideological split between the social Darwinists and the ethnic purists. Nowhere here do I see support for the idea that these space Spartans would adopt abandoned children from other races and cultures and raise them as their own. He absolutely did. Note that Boba Fett ultimately becomes a villain, not a hero. |
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Post by mikeximus on Apr 2, 2021 16:50:38 GMT
Some of them accept Maul because he proved he was stronger by murdering their previous leader. Some of them reject Maul because he's an outsider. What this shows is an ideological split between the social Darwinists and the ethnic purists. Nowhere here do I see support for the idea that these space Spartans would adopt abandoned children from other races and cultures and raise them as their own. He absolutely did. Note that Boba Fett ultimately becomes a villain, not a hero. An ideological split.. a split in ideology.. where people within the same culture can have differences of ideology? So some Mandalorians believing it's ok for an alien, outsider to lead them and some don't believe in that... Just like some Mandalorians believing in foundlings, and some don't? If you paid attention to the show The Mandalorian, you would realize that the group that Mando hangs with does not believe the same things as other groups. They won't remove their helmets as part of their "creed", which we know is not part of the creed of the Death Watch in TCW or the mainstream Mandalorians. Bo Katan refers to Mando as a religious zealot in the show. But lets ignore nuance, the same nuance that we see in the TCW show, which you have argued Lucas sees as no different than his movies. So, they are xenophobic, until some aren't.. So, they are social darwinists, until most/some aren't... So, they are spartans, until most/some aren't... So, they are pacifists, until some aren't.. etc etc etc So Mandalorians seem to be a mix of different ideologies.. which you argue is true when you say there was an "ideological split" amongst some in TCW.. However, because it suits your argument, your criticism, you want the Mandalorians in the show "The Mandalorian" to be ideologically the same as what exactly? It's a bit strange because in TCW, the show you say Lucas sees is no different than his movies.. The Mandalorians are, in fact, not ideologically the same across the board! AS for Iron Man, what does villain vs hero have to do with it? That was not your original critique. Your original critique was: Now everyone loves the Mandalorians and their high-tech, weapon-obsessed culture. It's the Iron Man cult transplanted to Star Wars. Nothing about hero vs villain. You are obviously turning your nose down at fans of Iron Man, referring to them as a cult. Yet, Lucas admits that Fett is his Iron Man, because of the suit that has all the gadgets in it. In other words, it is Lucas that brought the "cult" of Iron Man into Star Wars, not Disney, not the show. Lucas has admitted numerous times that part of the reason the fans love Fett is because of the suit. So your original criticism was not about hero or villain, it was about the similarities between the visuals of Iron Man and the Mandalorian suits. As I said to alex.. I am not trying to convince you to like the show. However, you both seem to want to have your cake and eat it too... |
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Post by Alexrd on Apr 2, 2021 17:03:13 GMT
OK.. so lets pump the brakes on the whole “Lucas’s vision” narrative. We are all huge Lucas fans here, so we all know that Lucas’s “visions” change every time the wind changes direction. This is why we go from situations where Luke is a female and Han is a green alien to what we get in the movies. The best we can do is follow the evolution of his “visions” with what little information we have. No, I do not subscribe to the assertion that Lucas's vision changes like the wind. Yes, we can follow the changes, or compromises, throughout the development of his vision from concept to reality. SO the Filoni quote. In the video, the whole context of the quote is that he is talking about what he and Lucas discussed when Lucas walks into his office and says he wants to work on something involving Mandalorians and what is a Mandalorian. This is clear when Filoni says he has the huge pile of material on Mandaloarians that he pushes towards Lucas. Pushing the existing pile of licensed material of a given topic (not just Mandalorians) to the table is part of the MO during the development process of the show. Furthermore, in the full quote, in the section we see you cut off, we see mention of the great cataclysm that turns Mandalore into a barren wasteland.. this makes it into TCW. Filoni talks of the wars between the Jedi and Mandalorians, which makes it into the TCW. No, it doesn't. That's the retcon from Filoni to explain Lucas's vision of the planet and its landscape. A retcon trying to tie the EU with Lucas's vision. So you’re assertion that the stuff you cutoff is only Filoni talking about and appeasing EU fanboys is not true because that stuff made it into TCW. The same TCW, that you have stated (using yet another partial quote), Lucas sees as no different as his movies. You are mixing two entirely different arguments. TCW, as a project and from a story perspective, follows and is part of Lucas's vision. That doesn't mean he came up with everything that's in TCW, and since a lot is documented, we can filter what's Filoni and what's Lucas. In this case, none of Filoni's EU pandering is part of the episodes themselves. It's only part of the featurette. You are doing a whole lot of speaking for Lucas in your above response. Again, the best we can do is look at the evolution of Lucas’s “visions”. When it comes to Mandalorians and Boba Fett, these two visions are separate but connected. Just like anything that Lucas has done, visions start as one thing, become another, get thrown away, come back as something else etc etc etc etc. Lucas had intentions of using a Bounty Hunter/mercenary as far back as some of his early scripts for A New Hope. When he was tweaking his “vision” of that movie, he had a character named Prince Valorum that was a sort of bounty hunter/merc that was going to track down the main good guys. This “vision” eventually evolves into Darth Vader. Lucas’s original concept of the super commandoes were that of an army of tens of thousands of “super stormtroopers” as Rinzler calls them in his Making of ESB book. Super Commandoes is what Joe Johnston calls them in his concept artwork. Others have called them “super-troopers”. Johnston, along with McQuarrie, developed the look of the super commandos that would eventually turn into a singular BH known as Boba Fett. Johnston is on the record as saying he has no memory of anyone ever calling the super trooper/Boba Fett armor… Mandalorian armor. Joe Johnston has said: www.starwars.com/news/empire-at-40-joe-johnston-boba-fett-interview#:~:text=%E2%80%9CGeorge%20%5BLucas%5D%20wanted%20a,an%20army%20of%20super%20troopers. The super commandos, super troopers, were supposed to be an army of specialized Stormtroopers. This is clear from the concept art that Johnston worked on and by Johnston’s own words. www.starwars.com/news/empire-at-40-joe-johnston-boba-fett-interview#:~:text=%E2%80%9CGeorge%20%5BLucas%5D%20wanted%20a,an%20army%20of%20super%20troopers. This is why the concept art of the super commandos wearing all white, why the prototype armor was all white. In 1979, Bantha Tracks #5 says of Boba Fett and his armor: www.jeditemplearchives.com/specialreports/banthatracks/archives/banthatracks05.pdfAgain, no mention of Mandalorians, and now they are called Imperial Shocktroopers. Assuming that this info is from Lucas it shows, as we all know, a changing vision of what those super commandos are or were. We go from 40,000 super commandos, to not many being left because they were wiped out by the Jedi. The reason why we go from imperial shocktroopers/super commandos/super-stormtroopers/super troopers to Boba Fett is a matter of practicality.. or in other words.. money. It seems that the suits of armor were just too damned expensive to make the amount Lucas wanted. The suits were far more detailed and intricate than the normal Stormtroopers. Thus the idea for an army of super Stormtroopers was scrapped and the armor was reused for a singular Bounty Hunter named Boba Fett: www.starwars.com/news/empire-at-40-joe-johnston-boba-fett-interview#:~:text=%E2%80%9CGeorge%20%5BLucas%5D%20wanted%20a,an%20army%20of%20super%20troopers. One thing still is missing with all this.. the word Mandalorian. The first known use of the word Mandalorian (as far as I know) came from the Empire Strikes Back Sketchbook, which describes Fett’s armor as coming from a squad of super commandos from the Mandalore system. That was it. No mention of their society, their beliefs, their warrior ways etc etc etc. Nothing at all. So what we have is Lucas scraping his super commando/super Stormtrooper concept because of money, but, re-using the visuals for a Bounty Hunter he had been toying around with since A New Hope. However, in Lucas’s mind, that Bounty Hunter was always more than just a Bounty Hunter that was wearing someone else’s armor. None of that contradicts my statements or arguments. The fact that Lucas had an idea of what Mandalorians are, doesn't mean that Boba Fett didn't come from the supertrooper/supercommando concept. Boba Fett was the final compromise of a lot of ideas. Yet Lucas took the time to established that only Boba Fett armor is tied to the Mandalorians, not Boba Fett himself. That Mandalorians are one thing and Boba Fett is another. Lucas has been quoted at least a couple times mentioning that he always felt that Fett was connected to the Stormtroopers in some way. In the August 2002 issue of Star Wars Insider there is this passage from an interview with Lucas: SO we have here Lucas saying that he “always” saw Fett’s back story as him being connected to the Stormtroopers. What is that possible connection? On the DVD commentary for Attack Of The Clones, Lucas says the following: So here we have mention that Lucas, at least for some time, had “envisioned” Boba as being connected to the Stormtroopers. Which makes sense as we know that Fett’s conceptual origins are tied in with those “super Stormtroopers”. So all these behind the scenes interviews, concepts, quotes. Nothing about Mandalorians except a vague mention in a sketchbook in 1980. So where did Mandalorian come from? Well, Filoni had asked Lucas this question… SO we find out that Lucas did come up with the name Mandaore, however, it was more of a placeholder name that was even at one time the name for Alderaan. It just happened to eventually stick with the origin of Boba Fett’s armor. No history of the people, no history of the society, just hey, it was a name that stuck for some group of super Stormtroopers that were working for the Empire. That is not to say that as the decades went on, Lucas didn’t eventually build on that, however, the idea of A, B, C, is what Lucas envisioned for the Mandalorians is really a far-fetched idea. How is it far-fetched? Lucas explored the Mandalorians for the first time in TCW. But he was informed by ideas (vague or concrete) that he had from way back. Which brings me back to the original problem here… You are using what Lucas envisioned the Mandalorians to be as a hammer to beat up on the new Mandalorian show. As I have said before, I enjoy the show, it is not perfect. As anyone knows, I have been extremely critical of Disney Star Wars. The problem I have with your statements is that you seem to want to have it both ways. First you are speaking for Lucas's vision, when there doesn't seem to be much info on Lucas's vision.Than you want to argue that Mandalorian is bad because it goes against this “vision” that Lucas has for Mandalorians, when we aren’t sure what that vision is or was. Yet at the same time argue that the show, The Clone Wars, according to you, is 100% canon from the perspective of George Lucas. You even go so far as to use a partial quote in which you affirm that Lucas sees the show no different (canonically) than his movies. Again, what does one thing got to to with the other? And how are the two mutually exclusive? Well, the problem here is that the thing you are complaining about with the Mandalorian, that they do not follow Lucas’s vision, can be said about the Mandalorians in TCW!! The Mandalorians in TCW are pacifists. They are not Spartans, they are not a military race. They left their warrior ways behind as it destroyed their planet. In fact, the group that is trying to bring back the old ways are terrorists. They kill innocents in order to get what they want, they align themselves with criminals and the Sith in order to get what they want. But, they can’t be mercenaries in order to get what they want? Those Mandalorians are in fact.. vagabonds. They are exiled from their home. They do in fact customize their armor. Some have different helmets, some have different insignias, in fact one of the Death Watch has the famous Mandalorian/Mythosaur skull on his chest in TCW. (Season 5 Episode 15). They change their paint schemes to reflect their leader, when Maul takes over Death Watch, they change their paint to a red. No, the Mandalorians are not pacifists. That's the whole point of that story arc. That this imposed "pacifism" is not sustainable because it's contrary to their ways. You are using story points and turns as Lucas's vision of what a people or faction is meant to be, which is a fallacy. That's like arguing that Lucas envisions the Jedi as war leaders just because they were forced into that role during the Clone Wars. No, that's not what the Jedi are. Just like the Mandalorians are not pacifists. They are not vagabonds either as the EU portrayed them. The consequences of their exile doesn't mean that's what their ways are about or what they are fighting to restore. They don't customize their armor to their preferences and tastes, they don't reflect their individuality. It's uniform, to reflect their tradition and allegiance. If you can't tell the flaw in your argument, then I can't help you. So which is it? Is it bad or good to portray Mandalorians in a way that is not exactly the “Spartan like”, “militaristic” way that you claim Lucas envisioned? Because TCW does not portray them as such. However, you claim TCW is in line with Lucas’s vision, that Lucas sees the show as no different than his movies. You can’t have it both ways. Again, flawed argument as I've explained above. The Mandalorians in TCW are spartan like, they are uniform, they are militaristic. TCW portrays the Mandalorians trying to restore their ways from an imposed (and frail) pacifism. The Mandalorians in the show, The Mandalorian are vagabonds. They clearly are an off shoot of the Death Watch clan from TCW as it was Death Watch that saved "Mando" from the separatists attack. They are vagabonds in The Mandalorian, no argument there. And yes, they are Death Watch, but not really. Well, it made a good easter egg in the first season that was completely discarded by the second. As it should be, since the Death Watch never had some made up rules about removing the helmet or adopting kids from other worlds despite their racial pride and ethnocentrism. So the Mandalorians that we see in the show "The Mandalorian" are in a very similar situation as we see Death Watch in TCW (which according to you, Lucas says is no different than his movies). The only similarity is the Death Watch symbol in the armor of that terrorist good samaritan group that rescues kids from separatist droids. They are a group of exiled extremists that are trying to hang onto their old ways the best they can, while doing what they can to survive. Their armor is not true "Mandalorian Armor" as we see Mando's pre-beskar armor falls apart quite regularly. Once he gets his true beskar armor, there is very little customization, besides his insignia. They are all wearing Mandalorian armor, and there are no two alike. Are you saying that their heavily personalized armor is contrary to their ways? If so, why would they do that? If not, how is that similar to TCW? I am not saying you have to like the show. I am just trying to figure out by what standard you are using for your stance that if it does not fit what Lucas envisioned, when according to what you say Lucas envisioned the Mandalorians to be, neither show fits.. Than it is no good. I've already explained how it doesn't fit. And my issue with the Mandalorians is secondary. My main problem with the show is the laziness. It's over-reliance on memberberries. It's the same logic behind The Farce Awakens, only it now includes the PT.
Is it the best "original" thing Disney has produced with the franchise? Maybe. But that's not saying much either. |
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Post by Pyrogenic on Apr 5, 2021 19:52:59 GMT
I've only seen TFA and R1. I think there's a name for us, Rinzlerians or something? I'm adamantly averse to seeing, or even hearing about any of the others. "Prejudiced" is the word you're looking for. |
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Post by Cryogenic on Apr 6, 2021 18:18:45 GMT
I've only seen TFA and R1. I think there's a name for us, Rinzlerians or something? I'm adamantly averse to seeing, or even hearing about any of the others. "Prejudiced" is the word you're looking for.  |
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Post by Ingram on Apr 7, 2021 4:03:44 GMT
I've only seen TFA and R1. I think there's a name for us, Rinzlerians or something? I'm adamantly averse to seeing, or even hearing about any of the others. "Prejudiced" is the word you're looking for. Hmm. I think "prejudice" would require the absence of knowledge or prior experience; only a preconception. The Force Awakens alone is no small thing. It's the movie that set the stage -- a calculated first impression -- for the entire Disney/KK-run-Lucasfilm custodianship. The ST, at least, while finding some better footing in it's latter two sequels, never did anything to redefine the overall creative course that was established back in 2015 per said Episode. So for one to cash out within the first year's time, in the wake of The Force Awakens and Rogue One together, and having judged as much, well, I think "hasty" might be a fairer verdict. Hasty and perhaps just plain stubborn—insofar that Sub claims to being adamantly averse to seeing or hearing about ...the rest. If I spend a shitty two-week vacation in Tripoli (bad food, rude cab drivers, overpriced room & board etc.) and decide never to return, am I being prejudicial outright? Note: the above is merely a hypothetical and does not reflect my sincere views on Libyans nor their capital city. I'm sure it's a swell place and everything. Really. |
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