Before the dark times. Before the Disney Wars...
Oct 23, 2019 19:58:46 GMT
Cryogenic, Pyrogenic, and 2 more like this
Post by Alexrd on Oct 23, 2019 19:58:46 GMT
This thread is meant to discuss the overall state of Star Wars as handled by Disney and to contrast with Lucas' handling of the franchise.
But first, allow me to reply to Cryogenic from a discussion started on the comment section of Naboo News:
Sure — it’s contrived. But like I said, there may be reasonably justified story choices for Threepio getting a bit sentimental. There was a nice little moment between Han and Threepio in TFA when Threepio simply mutters, “Princesses”, and Han gives him this knowing look. He did, arguably, become a bit more adept in the world of humans between the trilogies; but there is still plenty of his stubborn, awkward self there, too.
I'm sure that they will come up with some justification for this. Actually, I'm not sure they will. But I'm sure someone will come up with something.
My overall point is not that C-3PO cannot come to regard someone as a friend. He probably could. But they are making him do it with complete strangers.
I mean, R2 is for all intents and purposes his friend in all the movies they were in. He never called him that (which is one of my points), yet he shows many times that he cares about him.
I can't say I felt anything but dread and disgust while watching that movie, but in any case, even that scene supports my point. They had what, a minute of interaction?
Fair points. There isn’t the right degree of organic development between some conceits in the new films. It’s frustrating. However, developments in the earlier films could also be a bit choppy, at times. They have put some ideas into the new films that do loosely justify their approach, however. For example, Maz tells Finn: “If you live long enough, you see the same eyes in different people.” It’s like they all know each other from past lives.
I think that's reading too much into it and giving them credit for something they didn't really plan out or cared about. That line simply means that one can tell the same expressions and sentiments in different people.
I don't really agree with choppy developments from Lucas. I mean, some ideas did develop along the way, but there was a solid platform to it all that he cared enough to develop, and in turn allowed him to change some ideas without altering the purpose and overall flow of the story and characters. That's not the case here. There's no cohesion whatsoever.
I’m a little surprised myself! I forced myself to read more positive material on the films, and I subsequently found myself enjoying them more — well, more TLJ, admittedly, than TFA. It probably helps, too, that I had some in-depth conversations with a few prequel fans who enjoy the sequels, allowing me to realise it’s possible to like both. That isn’t intended as a bash of any kind. I still struggle with it myself. I’m a hardcore prequel fan above all else.
Don't get me wrong, I didn't mean to like the sequels at the expense of the other movies. More like at the expense of the creative consistency of the past six in comparison with what they are doing now. But hey, if you like them, you like them. Personally, the fact that there was a story from the maker himself that they put in the trash compactor makes my fan stomach hurt. To see the end result hurts even more, but that was more painful in 2015 with all the applause. Now it seems people finally woke up to the deception thanks to TLJ (thanks Rian!).
Obviously they didn't throw out all of his ideas. Keeping 1% of them is not throwing them all out, but the point is that the stories as he wrote them were thrown out, it's a completely different story altogether. In Lucas' story, there was no Empire 2.0. That alone is a major change that completely alters the setting and landscape of the story. Anakin had grandchildren (plural). The protagonist would start her Jedi training under Luke throughout Episode VII (the protagonist learned nothing from Luke in the Disney movies and Luke was completely absent for one third of the story). Luke was meant to die in Episode IX (an whole act later). These aren't small details, these are major changes that inherently tell a different story. And I didn't even mention the spiritual andmythical aspect of it, something that's completely missing from these movies.
But that's ignoring that there was a Lucas version of a sequel trilogy that was discarded. That's ignoring the consequences of that, which is the creative and stylistic disparity that exists between two thirds of the movies and the remaining third.
Can we really call this its true potential? Or even an evolution?
Under different circumstances, I could have tried to take these movies for what they are, but I can't. There are too many factors that I would need to pretend that are not there or didn't happen, and that's denying reality. Be it that this exists at the expense of an official story from George Lucas; be it that he was betrayed by both Iger and Kennedy (people he trusted); be it what they are doing on a socio-political level (not just with the movies, but Lucasfilm as a whole); be it that there are other IPs suffering from the post-modernist/cultural marxist take over; be it that I'm a fan of Lucas' Star Wars and as much as I despise the EU, I could still take some of its works for what they are, works that respected the fictional universe (something that I can't do with any of works released by Disney's Lucasfilm); etc...
P.S: I only asked this to you because I'm relatively familiar with your knowledge and insight from the many years on that other place. We aren't strangers, this is just a friendly discussion. The sort that is forbidden you know where.
But first, allow me to reply to Cryogenic from a discussion started on the comment section of Naboo News:
No, my point was that he didn’t do it when he had a logical and earned chance to do it (the past six movies), and now, not only are they are making him do it, but he’s doing it to what are in essence a bunch of strangers.
Sure — it’s contrived. But like I said, there may be reasonably justified story choices for Threepio getting a bit sentimental. There was a nice little moment between Han and Threepio in TFA when Threepio simply mutters, “Princesses”, and Han gives him this knowing look. He did, arguably, become a bit more adept in the world of humans between the trilogies; but there is still plenty of his stubborn, awkward self there, too.
I'm sure that they will come up with some justification for this. Actually, I'm not sure they will. But I'm sure someone will come up with something.
My overall point is not that C-3PO cannot come to regard someone as a friend. He probably could. But they are making him do it with complete strangers.
I mean, R2 is for all intents and purposes his friend in all the movies they were in. He never called him that (which is one of my points), yet he shows many times that he cares about him.
At several points, Poe either cuts Threepio short or disparages him; even when Threepio is right. The most extreme moment occurs when Poe loses his temper and simply tells Threepio to “shut up”, in the abandoned rebel base on Crait. I felt sorry for Threepio in that moment.
I can't say I felt anything but dread and disgust while watching that movie, but in any case, even that scene supports my point. They had what, a minute of interaction?
In a way, this scene is a great representation of the way they are handling Star Wars. Forcing things without any logic, throwing everything at the board and see if it sticks. And if it doesn’t stick, they’ll put fake glue on it and make it stick. It’s not natural. It’s hollow. A bad, unoriginal, nostalgia driven shell.
Fair points. There isn’t the right degree of organic development between some conceits in the new films. It’s frustrating. However, developments in the earlier films could also be a bit choppy, at times. They have put some ideas into the new films that do loosely justify their approach, however. For example, Maz tells Finn: “If you live long enough, you see the same eyes in different people.” It’s like they all know each other from past lives.
I think that's reading too much into it and giving them credit for something they didn't really plan out or cared about. That line simply means that one can tell the same expressions and sentiments in different people.
I don't really agree with choppy developments from Lucas. I mean, some ideas did develop along the way, but there was a solid platform to it all that he cared enough to develop, and in turn allowed him to change some ideas without altering the purpose and overall flow of the story and characters. That's not the case here. There's no cohesion whatsoever.
I have to say, and don’t get me wrong, I’m surprised you’re willing to give Disney so much credit considering what happened, the way they are handling things and how they deviated from the consistent excellence of Lucas’ saga (of which I know you’re a fan of).
I’m a little surprised myself! I forced myself to read more positive material on the films, and I subsequently found myself enjoying them more — well, more TLJ, admittedly, than TFA. It probably helps, too, that I had some in-depth conversations with a few prequel fans who enjoy the sequels, allowing me to realise it’s possible to like both. That isn’t intended as a bash of any kind. I still struggle with it myself. I’m a hardcore prequel fan above all else.
Don't get me wrong, I didn't mean to like the sequels at the expense of the other movies. More like at the expense of the creative consistency of the past six in comparison with what they are doing now. But hey, if you like them, you like them. Personally, the fact that there was a story from the maker himself that they put in the trash compactor makes my fan stomach hurt. To see the end result hurts even more, but that was more painful in 2015 with all the applause. Now it seems people finally woke up to the deception thanks to TLJ (thanks Rian!).
I don’t think it’s terribly clear (even if I earlier thought otherwise) that they threw out *all* of Lucas’ ideas. They certainly went their own way in TFA, but even there, I suspect some of his concepts are at play, beneath a heavy lacquering of nostalgia and fan-pandering. I mean, just take the idea of a “Jedi Killer” collecting artifacts — that kind of morphed into Kylo. And Kylo is also the offspring of Han and Leia. So ideas got squished together. In other ways, of course, it seems they went in their own direction — disappointing.
Obviously they didn't throw out all of his ideas. Keeping 1% of them is not throwing them all out, but the point is that the stories as he wrote them were thrown out, it's a completely different story altogether. In Lucas' story, there was no Empire 2.0. That alone is a major change that completely alters the setting and landscape of the story. Anakin had grandchildren (plural). The protagonist would start her Jedi training under Luke throughout Episode VII (the protagonist learned nothing from Luke in the Disney movies and Luke was completely absent for one third of the story). Luke was meant to die in Episode IX (an whole act later). These aren't small details, these are major changes that inherently tell a different story. And I didn't even mention the spiritual andmythical aspect of it, something that's completely missing from these movies.
I try to remind myself (even if it’s a rationalisation) that Lucas originally said, way back in 1982, that the sequel trilogy would be “someone else’s vision”. We kinda see that playing out here. It’s their vision; or their vision based on some Lucas-authored concepts that they may have retained. Beyond that, even if it strikes some as an illegitimate continuation/conclusion of the six films Lucas crafted (with considerable sweat, blood, and tears), I love the idea of three trilogies, and I love the fact that Star Wars spans forty-two years (freaky if you’re also a hardcore Elvis fan like me) — I mean, really, what a thing! 2001 isn’t the ultimate trip. Star Wars is.
But that's ignoring that there was a Lucas version of a sequel trilogy that was discarded. That's ignoring the consequences of that, which is the creative and stylistic disparity that exists between two thirds of the movies and the remaining third.
I love the idea of a lifeform reaching its true potential. Cosmic evolution.
Can we really call this its true potential? Or even an evolution?
Under different circumstances, I could have tried to take these movies for what they are, but I can't. There are too many factors that I would need to pretend that are not there or didn't happen, and that's denying reality. Be it that this exists at the expense of an official story from George Lucas; be it that he was betrayed by both Iger and Kennedy (people he trusted); be it what they are doing on a socio-political level (not just with the movies, but Lucasfilm as a whole); be it that there are other IPs suffering from the post-modernist/cultural marxist take over; be it that I'm a fan of Lucas' Star Wars and as much as I despise the EU, I could still take some of its works for what they are, works that respected the fictional universe (something that I can't do with any of works released by Disney's Lucasfilm); etc...
P.S: I only asked this to you because I'm relatively familiar with your knowledge and insight from the many years on that other place. We aren't strangers, this is just a friendly discussion. The sort that is forbidden you know where.