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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Nov 19, 2022 15:21:53 GMT
This is slightly tongue-in-cheek, but I also think there is some truth to these theories. I think there's a lot of commentary going on back and forth between the lines in TFA, TLJ and TRoS . Basically, I believe Johnson didn't particularly like TFA and the set up he was given by Abrams and his "mystery boxes", and this manifests in many ways in TLJ, the most glaring of which might be Luke throwing away his lightsaber, something that was fought for and hard earned in TFA. It was basically the symbol of TFA, the thing that represented the regressive nostalgia pandering and clinging to the past that characterized the whole approach of that movie. A tale for another time indeed...  Another one is the lines "Let the past die. Kill it, if you have to. It's the only way to become what you're meant to be" and "It's time to let old things die." TFA of course started this whole thing by having a line that many thought of as a slight at the prequels: "This will begin to set things right." Was Johnson simply returning the favor? There are many other examples of Johnson eschewing or outright destroying elements from TFA that you would maybe have expected to return in the sequel. Many of these were direct nostalgia pandering or "new" versions of old things. One of them is Kylo's Vader-imitation mask, which Snoke calls "a ridiculous thing." This is what Johnson says in the TLJ commentary: I get the feeling, listening to Johnson's commentary, that he didn't want Kylo to be a Vader-wannabe, and that he didnt like that he killed Han. In TLJ, Kylo is about to kill Leia, but decides not to do so, which is in stark contrast to him cold-bloodedly murdering his father. Other "takedowns" of TFA include: Kylo killing Snoke, the Palpatine replacement, who was one of Abrams' empty "mystery boxes". Kylo doesn't talk to Vader's mask No mention of the Knights of Ren, the Sith replacements Rey is a nobody Hux is turned into a joke Luke immediately changes his clothes from the ceremonial Jedi robes after he throws his lightsaber Rey doesn't mind trick anyone Maybe I'm reading too much into things, but I think ultimately these changes pushed Abrams to the point that he literally said "What the hell" and made a more unique ending to the trilogy with TRoS. I think that was Johnson's goal with TLJ, to provide a look into a more exotic and different ST. |
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Post by stampidhd280pro on Nov 19, 2022 17:31:08 GMT
All of what you're saying was pretty explicit, and much-discussed.
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Nov 19, 2022 17:42:14 GMT
All of what you're saying was pretty explicit, and much-discussed. Oh. I kind of dropped out of TFN and the Star Wars fandom scene right after TLJ released and didn't really come back until well after TRoS, so I must have missed those discussions. These were just my musings after reacquainting myself with these movies after the initial disappointment on release. |
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Post by Cryogenic on Nov 19, 2022 19:38:29 GMT
All of what you're saying was pretty explicit, and much-discussed. It hasn't really been discussed much on this website. In fact, Seeker of the Whills is the one who set this thread up. We literally didn't have a thread dedicated to TLJ before he started this one. Seeker is clearly trying to add to it when he can and make positive contributions. I'm more mixed on TLJ than I was. I started off mixed, went more positive, and returned to being more mixed. Yet I can appreciate Seeker's attempt to break the movie down and consider it from different angles. The problem is, as you touch on, the film has been discussed very extensively online. I can't blame Seeker for going over some of the same well-trodden ground. It's not like he's beating a dead horse. After all, TLJ isn't even that old. It's already been five years, next month, since it came out; but, sometimes, it feels like longer. |
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Nov 19, 2022 20:30:09 GMT
All of what you're saying was pretty explicit, and much-discussed. It hasn't really been discussed much on this website. In fact, Seeker of the Whills is the one who set this thread up. We literally didn't have a thread dedicated to TLJ before he started this one. Seeker is clearly trying to add to it when he can and make positive contributions. That's very nice of you to say, Cryo. I do try to add something. The five year anniversary as well as the recent Rian Johnson interview got me to think about this movie again, and the whole development of the sequel trilogy has been on my mind recently. To me it's an interesting topic. I was outright negative on TLJ on release like I was on TFA, but I could at least appreciate some of the prequel-esque moments more. I've since softened up on the movie, and now enjoy it mostly due to aesthetic reasons. TFA is the one Star Wars movie I still have a difficult relationship with, and I sometimes give it a hard time like in that post. But even TFA I can enjoy as a sort of rollercoaster ride if I remove it from the larger context of the rest of the saga. I was going over familiar ground, but that post was really meant as a prelude to another post in The Rise of Skywalker thread. TRoS hasn't been picked apart quite as much as TLJ, though you have made many excellent posts on it, so maybe I could tap into something more original with it. |
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Post by Cryogenic on Nov 19, 2022 21:44:16 GMT
It hasn't really been discussed much on this website. In fact, Seeker of the Whills is the one who set this thread up. We literally didn't have a thread dedicated to TLJ before he started this one. Seeker is clearly trying to add to it when he can and make positive contributions. That's very nice of you to say, Cryo. I do try to add something. The five year anniversary as well as the recent Rian Johnson interview got me to think about this movie again, and the whole development of the sequel trilogy has been on my mind recently. To me it's an interesting topic. You're welcome. It makes sense you would want to return to your own thread from time to time and add a bit extra, especially in light of little milestones like those you just mentioned. All topics are potentially or subjectively interesting. To me, a lot of it boils down to the attitude of the reader. The person who casually scolded you has literally made no direct contribution other than that one: i.e., that is their one and only reply. Granted, I haven't said a great deal, either, but my attitude on this is: at least get involved before bitching. Well, if I could give the Sequel Trilogy an alternate title, I might call it "The Red String Trilogy", primarily because of TLJ. It is TLJ that made the Rey-Kylo connection an official thing, which TROS dutifully followed up on. Seeds of it, of course, were planted in TFA, but I think it was Rian Johnson that decided to water them and make them sprout. Thank you. To me, only TROS really took the ST out of the push-pull TFA-TLJ morass, attempting to bring unity to the trilogy with the whole Reylo aspect, as mentioned above. That's sort of the glue holding the whole trilogy together. The rest is just gravy. |
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Post by smittysgelato on Nov 19, 2022 22:16:24 GMT
The funny thing is that Rian has Luke Force Project with Anakin's lightsaber...So, was Rian really rejecting the lightsaber and what it represented in the end? Or is Luke projecting with the lightsaber simply because that is what the immature Kylo Ren expects? The fact that Luke says, "I will not be the Last Jedi" seems to indicate Rian isn't really rejecting the lightsaber.
I walked out of the theatre the first time confused as to what Rian was going for, and am still kinda confused.
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Post by jppiper on Nov 19, 2022 22:17:00 GMT
CryogenicHow about the Happy Ending Override Trilogy?
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Post by Ingram on Nov 19, 2022 22:30:45 GMT
Granted, I haven't said a great deal, either, but my attitude on this is: at least get involved before bitching.
"It's all a machine, partner. Live free, don't join."
...Seeker, if you seek a possible metaphorical, uber-ironic dig from Johnson...
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Post by smittysgelato on Nov 19, 2022 22:50:34 GMT
Cryogenic How about the Happy Ending Override Trilogy? My mom calls Rey "The Girl Who Runs Alot." So you could also call it "The Girl Who Runs Alot: The Trilogy." |
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Post by smittysgelato on Nov 19, 2022 23:02:37 GMT
Granted, I haven't said a great deal, either, but my attitude on this is: at least get involved before bitching.
"It's all a machine, partner. Live free, don't join."
...Seeker, if you seek a possible metaphorical, uber-ironic dig from Johnson...
DJ sums up my attitude towards politics perfectly. I love that guy. |
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Post by stampidhd280pro on Nov 19, 2022 23:13:37 GMT
My my, we're a catty bunch aren't we? Back in 2017 we had like a 4 hour conversation about TLJ, remember? It never occurred to me that it hadn't been discussed here, or that I hadn't said anything about it since I joined.
This year, I started a nabarrie fields discord offshoot but only two other people joined. So I left it, or deleted it or something.
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Post by Ingram on Nov 19, 2022 23:18:03 GMT
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Post by Cryogenic on Nov 19, 2022 23:31:52 GMT
My my, we're a catty bunch aren't we? Back in 2017 we had like a 4 hour conversation about TLJ, remember? It never occurred to me that it hadn't been discussed here, or that I hadn't said anything about it since I joined. You've had an account here a while, and even a cursory glance at the topics within this forum (The Disney Era) should give you some indication that TLJ has never been discussed at length. Sure, here and there, conversation has occurred, but not in a thread specifically set aside for it before. You're right that we've discussed the film before. That's partially why I haven't bothered talking about it much on here. However, that was a while ago, and other fans might be exploring the film in a more positive way for the first time. I can't "stamp" on that, personally. Ah, right. So you're not bitter or anything; and this gave you no clue that TLJ isn't a popular topic with NF people? I appreciate the power and appeal of a group discussion, but the previous discussions in 2017 and 2018 occurred before there was any life to this forum. Plus, some people were banned from TFN and needed a place to continue the private group discussions that were started there. Since the forum got a little busier (in the last year or two), it seems people mostly gave up on the group discussion thing. Although, never say never. Maybe there's still a latent appetite in some of us, and even a bit of repressed nostalgia, to try the group thing again. |
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Post by Cryogenic on Nov 19, 2022 23:49:31 GMT
The funny thing is that Rian has Luke Force Project with Anakin's lightsaber...So, was Rian really rejecting the lightsaber and what it represented in the end? Or is Luke projecting with the lightsaber simply because that is what the immature Kylo Ren expects? The fact that Luke says, "I will not be the Last Jedi" seems to indicate Rian isn't really rejecting the lightsaber. I walked out of the theatre the first time confused as to what Rian was going for, and am still kinda confused. I'm guessing here it's meant to symbolise Luke's fallen-and-now-redeemed nature (like Anakin) and also meant as a troll of Kylo. After all, on Ahch-To, Luke trolls Rey by tickling her hand and slapping it with the reed in the first lesson, and he performs another troll in the second lesson (deleted scene), causing her to run into a situation that she misinterprets. Even before he agrees to "train" her (in inverse: giving her lessons about why the Jedi need to end), he jumps a big gap, startling Rey, and turns to her with a smug look on his face, right before spearing the fish. If Kylo had his wits about him, it's something he might have picked up on (the lightsaber ruptured in Snoke's throne room when Rey and Kylo fought over it), as well as Luke not leaving any footprints on the salt. Granted, I haven't said a great deal, either, but my attitude on this is: at least get involved before bitching. "It's all a machine, partner. Live free, don't join." ...Seeker, if you seek a possible metaphorical, uber-ironic dig from Johnson...
We all got sucked into the machinery of Star Wars "A long time ago". Cryogenic How about the Happy Ending Override Trilogy? My mom calls Rey "The Girl Who Runs Alot." So you could also call it "The Girl Who Runs Alot: The Trilogy." Finn's got Tourette's, Kylo needs a haircut, and Rey's got ants in her pants. You can tell it was J.J. Abrams that started this trilogy. |
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Post by smittysgelato on Nov 20, 2022 0:34:38 GMT
Yeah, right. Kylo was there when the blade was destroyed so clearly he didn't even notice it during the fight. So yeah, I don't really think Luke is using the blade just because that is what Kylo would expect. A part of me has always doubted the whole, "Rian disrespected the lightsaber" stuff.
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Post by Cryogenic on Nov 20, 2022 0:41:19 GMT
Yeah, right. Kylo was there when the blade was destroyed so clearly he didn't even notice it during the fight. So yeah, I don't really think Luke is using the blade just because that is what Kylo would expect. A part of me has always doubted the whole, "Rian disrespected the lightsaber" stuff. It's one of those fanboy battle cries similar to people who think Trump was there to "drain the swamp". Notice that the real saber is actually in a broken, ambiguous state at the end of the film. |
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Post by smittysgelato on Nov 20, 2022 0:45:03 GMT
Yeah, right. Kylo was there when the blade was destroyed so clearly he didn't even notice it during the fight. So yeah, I don't really think Luke is using the blade just because that is what Kylo would expect. A part of me has always doubted the whole, "Rian disrespected the lightsaber" stuff. It's one of those fanboy battle cries similar to people who think Trump was there to "drain the swamp". Notice that the real saber is actually in a broken, ambiguous state at the end of the film. I don't know why a crocodile would drain a swamp, lmao. |
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Post by Samnz on Nov 20, 2022 12:10:33 GMT
I'm just realizing that I have no idea what you're all talking about because I'm so unfamiliar with the ST as a result of an utter lack of interest upon first viewing. It's kind of funny. Interesting conversation anyway!
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Post by Cryogenic on Nov 20, 2022 18:24:54 GMT
I'm just realizing that I have no idea what you're all talking about because I'm so unfamiliar with the ST as a result of an utter lack of interest upon first viewing. It's kind of funny. Interesting conversation anyway! "So, like, the film is a canny subversion of expectations mixed in with oblique homage to classic Star Wars tropes, even down to the ambiguity of Luke facing off against Kylo with the classic Anakin saber whilst Rey discreetly maintains the real one that she tussled with Kylo over, albeit in a broken state." George/Samnz: ....................................................... |
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