Humanizing the Clones?

The clones in RotS clearly have personality, indicated by unique names, unique armor for some of the commanders, and Oddball and Cody's exchanges with Obi-Wan. But I think they took it too far in TCW. The clones became too individualistic, and too often disobeyed orders or acted on their own accord. In AotC, it is said that they are totally obedient, taking any order without question. They are also said to have been genetically modified to be less independent, but in TCW, they have a chip that compels them to only perform Order 66. So do they have to obey all orders like Lama Su says, or can they disobey? The clones in the micro-series gel better with the films, in my opinion.

Basically, the more one is able to tap into the Force, the more conscious they are of "the larger world." Expanding one's consciousness is a spiritual idea. Though some aliens have heightened senses naturally without the Force.

Interesting idea to create a hierarchy based on the Chain of Being. I really wish we had gotten GL's sequel trilogy, so we could have learned more of the Whills. Such a shame. Perhaps those stories will come out in some other form one day.

Yes. There being such a premise that tapping into the Force gives one access to a "larger world", and the more one taps into it, the more conscious of that larger world one is, is what gives the concept of a "great chain"/"great nest" some validity, I think.

Aliens show that there's some intermixing involved -- i.e., the categories are rough and suggestive, not discrete or absolute ("Only a Sith deals in absolutes"). A measure of irony also resides in the fact that, prior to my first reply in this thread, where I ranked droids low on the hierarchy, my preceding post in your Mirroring And Symbolism thread was about droids possessing their own inner fire. Feels like I'm praising them one moment, then doing them down the next! Forgive me, Artoo.  So, again, the categories aren't to be taken too seriously (and like I said, the list is for fun -- unless Lucasfilm adopts their own version in the future!).

Yet there are also many charts and diagrams, in self-help, psychological development, systems biology, ecological, and metaphysical, er... circles... based on the form of concentric circles; often with consciousness, or conscientious concern, radiating out from a centre. The centre is normally "I" or the ego, and the bigger circles around it are sometimes labelled "family", "friends", "strangers", "the wider community", etc. Similarly, there's also the concept of the noosphere. Notice that Star Wars is very concerned with spheres.

There's also this wonderful quote from Lucas on Alexrd 's blog (from the new book The Star Wars Archives: Episodes I-III 1999-2005 by Paul Duncan):


There's another remark Lucas once made (to Bill Moyers in 1999) that suggests he sees consciousness as scaling up:


Back to you, Seeker:


Thanks. The thought just occurred to me. I wanted to add something to Subtext's thread, but I initially couldn't think of what to say (I'm presently unfamiliar with TCW, but about to sit down and watch the whole show, if I'm dedicated enough -- thanks to the kind assistance of a person external to this site). 

Then I realised this idea of a Great Chain Of Being was staring me in the face. Perhaps acquiring the rank of Emperor last night had something to do with it. 

That said, my digression might be a little too "cosmic" for the thread. If so, I apologise for taking it off-topic.

And yes... Although I think the Whills and some of Lucas' other concepts are in the Disney Sequel Trilogy abstractly, a certain sublimation or suppression seems to have occurred, and I think there is much more we are yet to learn.

It's interesting that Lucas augments that line with Padme's reasonable-minded observation to Anakin in ROTS: "This war represents a failure to listen." In TPM, Qui-Gon tells Anakin that when he quiets his mind, he'll hear the midi-chlorians speaking to him. Sentience is everywhere in Star Wars, and Lucas seems to be making the point, in Episode I, that the Jedi often downplay the sentience of others, in favour of their own (and perhaps they cannot even "hear" the midi-chlorians as Qui-Gon seems to). Hence Obi-Wan and even Qui-Gon first being irritated by Jar Jar. It is also expressed in the way Obi-Wan has less regard for Artoo and droids in general than Anakin appears to. Even Anakin's anxiety toward the clones and wanting to "go help them out" in the Battle of Coruscant is contrasted with Obi-Wan's cool rationalism: "No, no. They are doing their job so we can do ours." Luke continues the legacy of Anakin (and Padme) by treating Artoo and Threepio with notable kindness -- and if it weren't for the droids, half the things in Star Wars couldn't happen.


Oh, they are!!! Episode I is particularly great on that front.

Ring Theory! I think a thread or two on TFN might have helped Mike Klimo "find" his theory.   But that would be another discussion for another thread.

What I think The Clone Wars series shows us is that though the clones were genetically designed to be more like organic droids, the bottom line is that essentially they are human and exposure to certain life experiences creates the opportunity to gradually open some of them up more to that potentiality.

Or, it at least asks; how human can clones be? How much of one's humanity can genetic engineering override?

In fact, I would go so far as to say the few times Clones deviated from their protocols was because they were getting a bigger taste of what it means to be human and grappling with the ensuing nuanced moral dilemmas, and thus struggling with the two polarities between organic droid or human.

For example, when Slick went traitor. He did so because Asajj Ventress had convinced him through a Dooku-esque concoction of truths, half-truths and lies that the Clones were slaves to the Jedi and the Republic. The truth in that is debatable, but knowing what we, the post-RotS audience, know about the ultimate purpose of the war and of the clones, how wrong IS it? 100%? 99%? Less? Slick felt like something about what she said clicked - and thus he wanted to be free, as he says. His actions were deplorable and completely wrong, but there's also a deep, elusive fissure of ambiguity taking place here. At least for the viewers.


There's also the time when a few Clones disobeyed General Pong Krell, who had secretly gone to the dark side and was giving them orders which were illogical, counterproductive and sometimes even suicidal. They used their ingenuity to bypass Krell's orders which ended up being the right thing to do and saved the day and helped win the battle of Umbara. So we're forced to ask more difficult questions. And remember there were also other Clones who were still following Krell's command to the T, despite the insanity.

The point being raised; with millions of Clones, is there bound to be some variances in disposition when subject to extreme circumstances?


What I see in TCW is a spectrum of individual personality/more human-like vibe among the clones. Most are generic grunts like in AotC & CW, but a handful developed quite a bit over the years. And those few were the ones who were basically encouraged to do so from early on in their training and throughout their three years of the war.

For example, Echo and Fives, who had the fortune of having El-Les as their squad trainer and the counsel they sought with Shaak-Ti who instilled in them a sense of thinking more holistically. As well as their friendship with malformed Clone 99 who hadn't trained to be a trooper and therefore had a different outlook on life.


So, ultimately; how human can a human clone get? Modified or otherwise. This is a question we as a species may all be pondering some day in the future. Would they have souls, so to speak? And in the vein of Star Wars; can a Clone experience compassion? Can they form attachments?

I think the micro-series handled the clones in an awesome way. Those ARC troopers are still the coolest the clones ever were. Maybe it would have been boring in a full-length show which focused so heavily on the clones, but that brings up another complaint I have about TCW.  What I wanted from the show were adventures with Anakin and Obi-Wan, like in the beginnings of AotC and RotS and the micro-series. Instead the show focused more on Ahsoka, the clones, Mandalorians and things like Maul and Hondo. I was excited when Ahsoka left the Order, because I thought it would give more time for focus on Anakin/Obi-Wan stuff. I would have loved that unfinished Utapau arc where it was just the two of them on an adventure.

I had forgotten how the Order 66 arc explained the aberrant behavior of some of the clones, that they were influenced to be more creative by the Jedi. Cody does allude to a long history of service alongside Obi-Wan during which they have bonded in RotS, when he says "Come on, when have I ever let you down." The clones in AotC are just numbers, like organic droids, but by RotS the commanders working under Jedi have unique armor and names. Oddball, Cody, Gree, Neyo, Kagi, etc. Though most clones still remained "shiny." And Anakin does see the clones as individuals in RotS. So all the ideas were there, perhaps a bit subtly, in RotS, and they were then fleshed out in TCW.

In AOTC, the clone mocap was performed by LFL employees, in ROTS, they used real servicemen, IIRC. As a result, the clones are a lot more dynamic in the latter. They still move in units, but the actions are much more personalized. They're seen performing CQC, they shout out tactics in battle, Lucas even inserted more clone chatter in the Utapau battle for the 2011 bluray. It adds to the feeling that they've grown more human over the course of the war. It's a natural progression IMO.

There are quite a few adventures of Anakin & Obi-Wan in every season. But a whole show of that? I think that would tend to get boring and one-note. It would be remiss of them not to get into the Clones, new characters, and a Padawan for Anakin.

SW: It also shows a bit more of the Clone characters as well.
Lucas: Yeah, now we get introduced to the Clones, which we didn't get in the movies. Now, they're like main characters and they really are central to the whole thing, and you can identify with them and know who they are, and it's sort of like "Band of Brothers" only with Jedi.

TCW expanded so much of the SW lore by exploring the other aspects of the Galaxy and the players involved. Taking time to focus on other planets and factions and how they all fit it into it all is a real gift.

I don't think Lucas & team gave some of the Clones some uniqueness just for the f of it. He always puts heart and soul into his work, while asking questions about humanity. He obviously thought a lot about clones to make a whole war about them as the back story in ANH. It could've been any kind of war: a droid war, a spice war, a plasma war, etc.

For instance, there seems to be somewhat of a parallel being made between the Clones and the Tusken Raiders. Is it excusable to kill Tuskens since they're wild savages and thought of as less than human? And on the other side of the coin, is it ok to use Clones created in a lab as cannon fodder, are they really humans like everyone else?



And I think it's only natural some Clones would begin to ponder such questions after leaving Kamino and gathering experiences out there in the galaxy.

THX 1138 is another good example which brings out a question George definitely seems to be asking: how much of our humanity can really be conditioned out? For how long can mass society suffocate the soul?


Yeah, like I said, those are the only ones I'm talking about. Not all, or even most, of them:

Yes.
Exactly.
Right.
Yes indeed. War is dehumanizing and breeding clones in a lab, especially to fight a war, is dehumanizing. All of this is true. Yet, layered within all of that, in a thought-provoking mosaic, it seems the show is also asking the questions I asked above, that the movies didn't have time for.
Sure. And again, I don't feel the show is trying to humanize all of them. At least not very much. It's the few who have been encouraged by their Jedi Generals to think holistically throughout their three years in the war and have been exposed to some of the inevitable conditions I mentioned in the OP. Those few are given poignant arcs that carry on throughout the series.

I think the show maintains the universal soldier concept for the most part, and keeps intact all the points you made. It just also, at the same time, takes a look at other issues, dilemmas and questions in a thoughtful way.

Yes. And I'd say the show does as well, to great effect.

SW: It's obviously a different tone, but it still has the drama and the characters.
Lucas: The TV series is exactly like the movies, exactly. I mean, you can see it in the clip. It's basically just the movies only with cartoon characters. It's basically a dramatic series, there's lots of action, a bit of humor. It runs along at the same level ...sort of on the verge of PG-13.

The show depicts the dehumanizing horrors of war, while also showing how much humanity comes out during the atrocities of war. When helping comrades and civilians in need. The term isn't "war buddies" for nothing. Disaster tends to bring out the humanity in people, the compassion and cooperation. We see it all the time. I can't help but think Lucas' plan had always been to raise such as questions as: can clones form bonds and experience friendships and empathy? Can they reflect on their humanity?

I don't think this aspect of the show is the the way it is just because it's a cartoon, or just because a sizable portion focuses on the Clones, I think it's because that's just what would realistically happen. And it would be a wasted opportunity not to explore it. I see it as a more complete view of the war, such that it deserves.