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Post by Subtext Mining on Aug 14, 2022 12:53:14 GMT
I find the TCW character 99 to be a very clever idea by the creators of the show. 99 is an anomaly, a defective Clone whose genetic development went awry. His physical deformities render him incapable of combated service, so he has been relegated to the life of a maintenance technician on Kamino. And just as the genetics for his body did not develop properly, it seems the genetic programming to make him less independent also did not quite completely take. So he's a more free-thinking individual, able to look into the various aspects of life through a wider lens than that of the other Clones who've focused only on military training. 99's character therefore serves a vital role in the cartoon series, as he gives the Clones whom he befriends highly valuable encouragement and advice. And as a fellow Clone himself, loyal to his brothers and their cause, he can reach them and connect with them on their level in ways no one else can. And as the advice he gives them is from a perspective more outside the box of the average Clone, it tends to help them see things from a broader perspective. We see him bestowing Hevy with not only his name but also with a deeper understanding of teamwork and brotherhood, which inspires Hevy to help his squad pass their final test and graduate to field soldiers. Later, Hevy sacrifices himself to help alert the Republic of a Separatist attack on Kamino. And thanks to 99's expert knowledge of the Kamino facility layout, he helps the Republic win that battle.  |
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Post by Subtext Mining on Jan 2, 2023 10:50:07 GMT
I've always liked this interlude between Yoda and three Clone Troppers, when they're outnumbered and get holed up in a cave. From one of the first episodes of TCW. It's a perfect illustration of how the Jedi would inevitably see and interact with the Clones. Jek: We're low on ammo, sir. Only two grenades and one rocket for the launcher. Rys: Against a battalion? (scoff) Forget it, we've lost. Yoda: So certain of defeat are you, hm? Thire: With respect General, maybe you should go on. Let us slow 'em down. Yoda: All around us is that which we need to prevail... yes. Come, sit. Your helmets, remove them, your faces I wish to see. Thire: Not much to look at here, sir. We all share the same face. Yoda: Deceive you, eyes can. In the Force, very different each one of you are. Rys, always focused on the enemy are you. For inspiration, look to yourself, and those beside you. Jek, concerned about weapons you are. Weapons do not win battles. Your mind, powerful it is, mm. Outthink the droids, you can. Thire, rush not into fights. Long is the war, for only by surviving it will you prevail... yes. Clones you may be, but the Force resides in all life forms. Use it you can to quiet your mind.  |
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Post by Subtext Mining on Aug 25, 2024 0:12:37 GMT
Here's a question for the debate over Clones being automaton tools or able to become individuals over time. Not to mention cloning in general (if the day of human cloning comes).
Do clones have empathy and moral ethics? They're bred to follow every order, but do they have a sense of right & wrong?
(To borrow a bit from Blade Runner).
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Sept 30, 2024 13:50:42 GMT
That is a great question that I have never really pondered before. I'm not against clones being individualistic as an idea. I actually like a lot of the expanded clone stuff from TCW, and I think it's some of the best material from the show, particularly the character of 99. I was greatly moved by his story when I first saw those episodes. But I do think they took it slightly too far, culminating in the "inhibitor chip" which is too close to a retcon of Lama-Su's explanation of clones being genetically modified to be less independent in AotC. So, to me the problem is the show overriding some things from the movies, which makes it too incongruous to fit into my view of the saga.
Now, clones clearly have some sense of individualism in RotS, having names. But I kind of imagine this to just be functional in nature, making it easier for the Jedi to identify and order around the clones. And Cody has a bit of a sense of humor when he slightly chafes with Obi-Wan. But we don't really see unique hair styles, tattoos or customized armor like we do in TCW. In the show, the clones are also constantly calling each other "brother," which we don't hear in the movies.
To me at least, the movie clones are decidedly greyer like their makers, the Kaminoans, who are grey in both appearance and demeanor (I wonder if anyone gets that reference). The circumstances of the clones' creation are shrouded in mystery, and we are not sure if the Kaminoans are in on the plot or not. Temuera Morrison's much gruffer performance as the clones is also something that is incongruous with the much more friendly tone of the clones from the show. These are meant to be clones of Jango Fett, the ruthless bounty hunter, after all, so I think it makes sense that they would be edgier. A lot of the times the clones come off almost like Care Bears in the show. They are so sentimental and affectionate, they had to come up with the idea of the chip being an ON/OFF mind control button that suddenly turns them evil, because it wasn't believable anymore that they would simply follow orders to kill the Jedi. The movie clones are matter of fact and there is no sudden change when they turn on the Jedi. It's just business as usual, for which they were engineered.
So, do the clones have empathy or moral ethics? The TCW clones clearly do, until they are activated for evil doing by the chips. But the movie clones? I don't think they do. They are like organic droids, at least in my view. The clones simply answer "It will be done, my lord" when Palpatine calls on them to execute their Jedi leaders.
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Post by Alexrd on Oct 1, 2024 8:50:26 GMT
That is a great question that I have never really pondered before. I'm not against clones being individualistic as an idea. I actually like a lot of the expanded clone stuff from TCW, and I think it's some of the best material from the show, particularly the character of 99. I was greatly moved by his story when I first saw those episodes. But I do think they took it slightly too far, culminating in the "inhibitor chip" which is too close to a retcon of Lama-Su's explanation of clones being genetically modified to be less independent in AotC. So, to me the problem is the show overriding some things from the movies, which makes it too incongruous to fit into my view of the saga. But there's no contradiction between what's in the show and what's in the movies. It's established in the movies that the clones were genetically modified to be more docile, more obedient and less independent than Jango Fett. How they did that and how it works is not shown. The biological "chip" is simply what the show presents as the alterations made by the Kaminoans. Now, clones clearly have some sense of individualism in RotS, having names. But I kind of imagine this to just be functional in nature, making it easier for the Jedi to identify and order around the clones. And Cody has a bit of a sense of humor when he slightly chafes with Obi-Wan. But we don't really see unique hair styles, tattoos or customized armor like we do in TCW. In the show, the clones are also constantly calling each other "brother," which we don't hear in the movies. We barely see anything in the movies. The little we see that Lucas managed to show is that by the time of ROTS, the clones did grow in individuality (thanks to working alongside the Jedi, who fostered that) and we do see a variety of colors in ROTS across the different battalions, and not just in their armor but their ships as well, color which is immediately gotten rid of with the Empire. TCW merely takes those ideas that Lucas could only hint at in the movies and went all in since they had time and room for it. So, do the clones have empathy or moral ethics? The TCW clones clearly do, until they are activated for evil doing by the chips. But the movie clones? I don't think they do. They are like organic droids, at least in my view. There's no comradery or friendship among droids. Droids don't call or provide aid to each other in the battlefield, etc. The clones simply answer "It will be done, my lord" when Palpatine calls on them to execute their Jedi leaders. That answer is anything but simple. First, as seen in ROTS, their behaviour and disposition completely changed when they see Darth Sidious (who they never met), they answer him by his title and blindly obey his secret directive, which goes to show that something else is going on. Something not normal. Turns out they are sleeper agents. It's The Manchurian Candidate. |
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Post by Subtext Mining on Oct 3, 2024 23:43:18 GMT
The thing about the movies is the wording in some expositional scenes, such as Lama Su's, is general and open-ended enough to be fleshed out further later, when things come into a clearer focus.
I'm pretty neutral about the biochip, but with it, did anything really change?
And I like to point out that the film Clones didn't just have names, but Oddball for example, is a very quirky name that highlights the fact he is out of the ordinary. Hinting that not all Clones are the same, and some can be out there.
I notice a difference with the film Clones before and after Order 66. They have a more gruff, Cockney accent, and seem more heartless. "Keep moving, these Wookiees are dead."
And yes, why do they call the Chancellor, "My Lord"? Especially since they wouldn't recognize this random disfigured guy.
Are the Clones organic droids? One could say that when they first enter service, but I think after being around the Jedi for 3 years, and experiencing the things I listed in the first post, it's natural they'd develop a little bit as people to some degree.
Must be the zeitgeist of the week, my video on the dilemmas in the Umbara arc just went up.
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Oct 7, 2024 12:57:13 GMT
I respect both your points, Alexrd and Subtext Mining , but I'm one of those guys who never got fully on board The Clone Wars show, so many of the developments made in it seem to me out of bounds compared to what the movies establish. One of the most glaring discordant elements is the basic personality and even tone of voice of the clone troopers. They are far more friendly in the show than in the movies. Even the very first shot of adult clones in AotC establishes a gruff personality consistent with that of their "father," Jango Fett. The show's clones have practically nothing in common with Fett. That one look is key to establishing the character of the clones.  |
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Post by Alexrd on Oct 8, 2024 20:04:01 GMT
I respect both your points, Alexrd and Subtext Mining , but I'm one of those guys who never got fully on board The Clone Wars show, so many of the developments made in it seem to me out of bounds compared to what the movies establish. One of the most glaring discordant elements is the basic personality and even tone of voice of the clone troopers. They are far more friendly in the show than in the movies. My point is not that one needs to be on board with the TV show, but that nothing that it does in this regard contradicts what's established in the movies. The friendliness they display in the series is no different than the friendship Cody displays in ROTS with Obi-Wan. |
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Post by smittysgelato on Oct 9, 2024 5:39:45 GMT
I don't think the chip is a ret-con, merely an added flourish. After all, from what I understand about genetics, environment plays a big role. Genetically engineering the Clones to be obedient is good start, because it causes them to lean in that direction, but due to environmental factors, Sidious is too much of an evil genius to pin everything on a genetic pre-disposition for obedience. He wants to be damn sure they will pull the trigger when the time comes. Even Rex, the most independent-minded Clone, struggled really hard not to shoot Ahsoka when the order came through. She had to remove the chip from his head to stop him from being a threat to her.
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Post by Subtext Mining on Oct 9, 2024 17:42:00 GMT
I just want to touch on Bladerunner again. The Replicants don't have empathy. But in the final moments of his life, Roy decided to save Deckard's life, even though Deckard was trying to kill him. Through his life experiences, Roy developed a humanity of his own, and with it, a flicker of empathy, and appreciation for the lives of others.
Again I'm neutral on the chip, etc., but I tend to think it's not out of the realm of possibilities that a small percentage of Clones, through their experiences and time with the Jedi, would go through something similar to Roy. Not a lot, but perhaps a few.
I also think it adds an interesting layer of narrative nuance that Rex is a prime example of this, having served along side Anakin Skywalker, of all people. That it was Anakin's extra flourish of "regular people" that helped spark a deeper than usual bond of trust, respect and friendship between the two. Therefore, by extension, Rex had a hard time turning on any Jedi, such as Krell.
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Post by smittysgelato on Oct 9, 2024 19:51:49 GMT
I just want to touch on Bladerunner again. The Replicants don't have empathy. But in the final moments of his life, Roy decided to save Deckard's life, even though Deckard was trying to kill him. Through his life experiences, Roy developed a humanity of his own, and with it, a flicker of empathy, and appreciation for the lives of others. Again I'm neutral on the chip, etc., but I tend to think it's not out of the realm of possibilities that a small percentage of Clones, through their experiences and time with the Jedi, would go through something similar to Roy. Not a lot, but perhaps a few. I also think it adds an interesting layer of narrative nuance that Rex is a prime example of this, having served along side Anakin Skywalker, of all people. That it was Anakin's extra flourish of "regular people" that helped spark a deeper than usual bond of trust, respect and friendship between the two. Therefore, by extension, Rex had a hard time turning on any Jedi, such as Krell. Yup, hanging out with the Jedi is an environmental/social influence that alters their gene expression.
As regards to Roy, the fact he gets a nail through one of his hands suggests some kind of Christian parallel. The whole idea that the Christ is the Wounded Healer who opens the world to compassion. You might say by saving Deckard, Roy not only became compassionate himself, but made Deckard finally open up to his compassion for the replicants too.
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Post by Alexrd on Oct 10, 2024 8:55:35 GMT
I can't draw a comparison with Blade Runner because the clones are humans, living beings. Not machines. But in Star Wars, droids can develop quirky behaviour despite their default programming, for good or bad. I guess that can be compared to the Replicants. Would I call that humanity? No, but an emulation (or replication, pun intended) of it because they are machines.
Living beings can be conditioned to behave differently than their genetic make up. We see it all the time, even within our own lives. We can trace our own default behaviour and disposition to our parents and grandparents, but environments such as schools, jobs, friends groups or other activities can change some of our pre-dispositions and behaviours (and at the extreme, even our character). Some people are more susceptible to the influence of others than the rest. Since the clones were tampered with, that makes them more susceptible than not in my book.
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Post by Subtext Mining on Oct 11, 2024 20:59:42 GMT
I also think it adds an interesting layer of narrative nuance that Rex is a prime example of this, having served along side Anakin Skywalker, of all people. That it was Anakin's extra flourish of "regular people" that helped spark a deeper than usual bond of trust, respect and friendship between the two. Therefore, by extension, Rex had a hard time turning on any Jedi, such as Krell. And after losing his humanity, Anakin was able to get it back. All in all, I think there's some interesting potential thematic parallels to explore with the Clones and the question of their humanity. I can't draw a comparison with Blade Runner because the clones are humans, living beings. Not machines. But in Star Wars, droids can develop quirky behaviour despite their default programming, for good or bad. I guess that can be compared to the Replicants. Would I call that humanity? No, but an emulation (or replication, pun intended) of it because they are machines. R2 is an interesting example. He seems to have, or at least understand, empathy. Do all droids? It seems most don't. We know R2 went a long time without a memory wipe and has had a lot of unique experiences. He was also "extremely well put together". I wonder what else contributed to R2's attributes. |
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Post by Alexrd on Oct 12, 2024 19:40:39 GMT
I don't think there's an in-universe reason. George simply wanted R2 to be that way. R2 is basically Lassie, so he gave him the attributes of a good dog: loyal, friendly, sometimes mischievous.
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Post by darkspine10 on Oct 23, 2024 19:19:36 GMT
One interesting aspect of this discussion is that TCW was curtailed mid-way through showing an evolution in Clone behaviour. The earlier seasons, up to about the end of Season 3, present the clones as more upbeat, generally positive figures. Apart from a few examples like Slick they can come off as more jolly figures who are inherently friendly and 'good', for lack of a better term. They suffer losses, with many Clones dying, but generally stay positive and don't question their role as soldiers. The Deserter sows the hints of Rex starting to consider his position on a wider scale than before.
Around the early-to-mid of Season 4 however we start seeing more cynical Clones. The turning point is Mercy Mission, in which we see Wolffe and his battalion much more annoyed and short with C3PO and the Aleena natives. This is followed up in Umbara, where the clones are pushed to the limit and are more hardened against a humanoid enemy, rather than the usual droids. Later in the season we have Clones willing to shoot unarmed prisoners in a riot. Season 5 pushes the Clones into more antagonistic behaviour with the Ahsoka Fugitive arc, in which they're clearly still acting on what to them is a noble cause, but acting as another barrier to Ahsoka's investigation. Season 6 develops this further, presenting Commander Fox as a straight-up villain in the Fives Conspiracy arc, not to mention the raucous Clone bar. We also get the Jedi learning about the Clones' less than savoury origins with Tyranus. More and more as the show goes on we see the Clones presented in a more villain-esque, less wholesome light.
The Bad Batch takes this a step further. The Batch are a black-ops squad, wearing black and grey with skull motifs, with mutations to make them even more effective at combat. Yes, they're the 'heroes' of the arc, and are softened by their rambunctious personalities, but they still prefigure a future in which these friendly clones could turn lethal against a different target. Then of course we get the actual Order 66 in the finale.
This turn towards presenting the Clones in a more ambiguous light was never given the full exposure it deserved thanks to the show's cancellation after Season 5/6. It's imbalanced, with 3 and a bit seasons of Clone levity, followed by only 2 or so seasons devoted to the darkening of the setting, with more arcs in the later seasons that focus on other aspects of the War (the underworld, force mysticism, Mandalore, etc.). It's hard to speculate how the unfinished episodes would have contributed to this trend, given that only two of the arcs not yet released seemed to have been Clone focused (Kashyyyk furthering the Bad Batch, and Rex/R2 presenting conflict between troopers and pilots). But it always seemed clear to me that there was intent by the showrunners to start with showing the Clones and noble, heroic figures, so they could twist that and darken those assumptions by showing the Clones as dangerous tools of oppression in the later parts of the show. It only got lost thanks to the show going uncompleted to this day.
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