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Post by jppiper on Nov 29, 2022 1:14:39 GMT
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Post by tonyg on Jan 31, 2023 12:27:46 GMT
While I don't support some extreme criticisms towards TESB, I clearly see some of its mistakes that the fanboys consider as strengths (unfortunately). As I said in my previous post, is not that there are movies without flaws but for TESB paradoxically some flaws are seen as strengths and this is what is worth to discuss. First and biggest issue for me is Leia's role in the movie. Is like the movie doesn't know what to do with Leia and her only active role is to be Han's love interest... well, except the times she goes bossing around in Hoth base or in the Millennium Falcon. The other active moment is her connection with Luke when Luke is saved because of her. But in general, Leia is "sided" in the movie but not in the same way as Padme is "restrained" in ROTS, which is obviously deliberately made to show the changing of the world till the last part when she goes to Mustafar. Let's take for example Vader's attitude towards Leia: in ANH he even shows her some twisted respect as to a strong rival (I told you she would never consciously betray the Rebellion, etc.) and in TESB he treats her like some part of Han's entourage. I'm affraid that her main role in the movie is to be treated as part of Han's entourage with few exceptions. So in that way TESB becomes the boys movie in a stark contrast with AOTC that is its opposite (and they are both respective second movies of the trilogies). In a way, TESB come back to the typical paths of the genre and I think this is one of the reasons it is liked most. Second problem: apart from ST for me TESB is the movie that is stick most to its time of making. Is not for its look or effects but for its plot, structure and ideas. TESB has late 70ties very hippie vibe especially with Yoda on-liners like "unlearn what you have learned": yes, it means "clear your mind", but still Luke trained with Obi Wan after all, should he unlearn this too . In PT the Jedi are mysterious yet in the same way logical and clear in their intents and argumentation, not like in TESB. For example, the conversation about fear in TPM: Yoda explains in few words what is the destructive power of it. Yes, it is strange however the argumentation seems indisputable. In the same way, Dagobah training doesn't give Luke answers, nor questions for that matter, but some pseudo-zen philosophical vague sentences as the cited one. They were soo mainstream at this period. Or this by Obi Wan: I couldn't help you with Vader. OK, but why? This is too crucial to be left unanswered, but is left unclear. As I said I think they relied too heavy on the shocking revelation of "I'm your father" and Luke's reaction to it so this somehow was left like this. SW in general is fairytale in space and treats problems that are more constant during the human existence, so it looks more authentic with a more romantic, fairytale vibe that can be seen in PT and the other OT movies, while TESB being the most modern (with this obvious modern vibe) deviates from the general tone of the saga. Third problem: this is the least political movie of all six. Its main focus is Luke personal spiritual journey and Han and Leia personal escape from Vader. Is not that is bad that it emphasizes on this, all the opposite, but the thin political implications make TESB something vaguely connected to Star WARS. War is political, this is inevitable. Battle of Hoth is the only one clearly political conflict but even this is an evacuation battle, so it doesn't count. I think the relations between Cloud City and Empire are a missed opportunity in this aspect: it is not clear why Empire just enters there and is the Cloud City something, you know, legal... And paradoxically, because of that TESB is liked while TPM is hated (because of, you know, too sophisticated political premise). So, for me the problem is not that TESB doesn't have strengths or flaws (it has both as every movie in the Saga) but these parts that are considered as part of its biggest advantages while they are the opposite.
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Post by maychild on Feb 2, 2023 3:29:53 GMT
Some Idiots Don't Except ROTJ as Canon That's How Over-Hyped TESB has become Some people go even further. A poster that belongs to what I call the Kurtz Kult (central belief: Gary Kurtz made ANH and ESB great, and everything since has sucked because it doesn't have some mythical thing called "Kurtz's influence") wrote this charmer: When someone questioned his extremism, he claimed it was a joke. First of all, I don't believe him. Second of all: some frickin' joke.
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Post by Moonshield on Sept 25, 2023 16:48:10 GMT
I think that what is missing is to show more explicitly Vader's inner conflict.
Vader has no inner conflict. He has it only in the end of the 6th film.
The fact that Empire is a bad movie objectively, can be proved by 5-6 different methods, and moreover, all of them give the same result.
For example, the first method is the box office - OT has lost over 50% from ANH to ROTJ. The main reason of this fall is Empire. It was boring. Even when I watched it in 1997 (I was 8), it was boring to me.
Or, for example, re-release - even 17 years after the premiere the box office of the Empire was 50% less than ANH had. It means that it wasn't re-evaluated.
Or now, the amount of views on Youtube. I watched PT reactions made by Colette Cherry - TPM has 40 000 views after 3 weeks, ESB has 39 000 views after 7 months.
TPM can be more interesting for people than ESB, after 20 years of propaganda.
All of it means that this film is really uninteresting. As a matter of fact, it begins from the pathetic battle of Hoth and then events of the film are even more boring.
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Post by jppiper on Sept 25, 2023 18:44:24 GMT
Some Idiots Don't Except ROTJ as Canon That's How Over-Hyped TESB has become Some people go even further. A poster that belongs to what I call the Kurtz Kult (central belief: Gary Kurtz made ANH and ESB great, and everything since has sucked because it doesn't have some mythical thing called "Kurtz's influence") wrote this charmer: When someone questioned his extremism, he claimed it was a joke. First of all, I don't believe him. Second of all: some frickin' joke. The Icon documentary (AKA The Lucas Bashing piece that said the OT worked because he was restrained) shows that Kurtz wasn't good at his job like some people think
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Post by tonyg on Sept 26, 2023 13:54:38 GMT
I think that what is missing is to show more explicitly Vader's inner conflict.
Vader has no inner conflict. He has it only in the end of the 6th film.
The fact that Empire is a bad movie objectively, can be proved by 5-6 different methods, and moreover, all of them give the same result.
For example, the first method is the box office - OT has lost over 50% from ANH to ROTJ. The main reason of this fall is Empire. It was boring. Even when I watched it in 1997 (I was 8), it was boring to me.
Or, for example, re-release - even 17 years after the premiere the box office of the Empire was 50% less than ANH had. It means that it wasn't re-evaluated.
Or now, the amount of views on Youtube. I watched PT reactions made by Colette Cherry - TPM has 40 000 views after 3 weeks, ESB has 39 000 views after 7 months.
TPM can be more interesting for people than ESB, after 20 years of propaganda.
All of it means that this film is really uninteresting. As a matter of fact, it begins from the pathetic battle of Hoth and then events of the film are even more boring.
I do think Vader has internal conflict, although someone can argue that ROTJ retconned this moment to explain that it is internal conflict, but still in TESB Vader has it, at least towards Luke, because he is acting unusually. First is his hesitation to go radically against Luke (first in the conversation with the Emperor, when he is trying to avoid Luke destruction especially in the moment when the Emperor explained that Luke is "Skywalker's son) and then during the duel when Vader disarmed Luke but nothing more. Also, let's be fair, in the end of TESB admiral Piett expected to be "dismissed" in the same way that his antecedents but Vader did nothing which is again very unusual for him and I think the reason is Luke. But as I said this in a way is "blurred" because of "I'm your father" momentum. As I said earlier in the thread, the real problem for me -apart the hype which makes the discussions about TESB almost impossible for its cultist status-is Leia's role. Apart from the last 10 minutes when she tries to save Han and in the end saves Luke, Leia is in this movie to serve as part of Han's entourage which is something I do not like (I already discussed the problem with the love story in EP.5).
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Post by Moonshield on Sept 26, 2023 15:56:32 GMT
I do think Vader has internal conflict We have no evidence of his internal conflict.
because he is acting unusually. Well, it's not the evidence. "Acting unusually" can take place in 1 000 000 situations.
(first in the conversation with the Emperor, when he is trying to avoid Luke destruction especially in the moment when the Emperor explained that Luke is "Skywalker's son) From the beginning, there were no words about the destruction of Luke Skywalker. Therefore Vader cannot try to avoid it.
and then during the duel when Vader disarmed Luke but nothing more. Well, there is no conflict. Vader obeys the Emperor's order - to bring Luke to the dark side. This is his first priority. He himself needs an apprentice as a Sith lord.
Also, let's be fair, in the end of TESB admiral Piett expected to be "dismissed" in the same way that his antecedents but Vader did nothing which is again very unusual for him and I think the reason is Luke. If Vader kills admiral Piett by the force choke, it won't help him to catch Luke. There is no reason. He saved Leia in IV, when Tarkin wanted to kill her, but there was no inner conflict. And there is no inner conflict in V.
As I said earlier in the thread, the real problem for me -apart the hype which makes the discussions about TESB almost impossible for its cultist status-is Leia's role. Apart from the last 10 minutes when she tries to save Han and in the end saves Luke, Leia is in this movie to serve as part of Han's entourage which is something I do not like (I already discussed the problem with the love story in EP.5).
The story of Han and Leia is pathetic, because Lucas plagiarized it from his own film "Graffiti". Perhaps, it is his only big mistake as a screenwriter. Just in case I repeat: for me, Lucas is greatest. His film writing skill is incredible. Kasdan is a talentless hack. But here Lucas made a mistake. The "love story" of Han and Leia is a trash comedy for 2 reasons:
1) what worked for 17-year-old teenagers, doesn't work for the smuggler and the rebel fighter;
But this reason isn't so important as 2).
2) Lucas has forgotten, that in the beginning of the American Graffiti Laurie and Steve WERE ALREADY IN A RELATIONSHIP, and Han and Leia in the beginning of the V WERE NOT! All these gags can be a fun story for those who are already in love with each other, but they CANNOT CREATE the relationship!
That is why when I watched this film, I didn't think they love each other. Because this is not love.
Anakin/Padme love story - this is love, really. When the boy love the girl, he is afraid. What if she says "no"? It hurts.
Han and Leia have nothing which can be described as love - garbage only.
People tried hard to make ESB as a cult, yes. And they could, yes. Though until 2001 nobody thought that ESB is a good movie. The critics' consensus on Rotten Tomatoes:
"Thin plot, terrible ending".
Their consensus of TPM (absolutely wrong):
"Flat characters, bad acting".
which really can be said about ESB. Thin plot, terrible ending, flat characters, bad acting.
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