Do fans expect every film to be like ESB?

Some ESB posters I'd never seen before.

Great movie, but somewhat overrated in a sense that fans overlooks its flaws, the main one being a retcon of ANH ending and failing to address the larger geopolitical situation in the galaxy. Not developing any characters except Luke and Vader. Leia is attracted to Han even though they could barely stand each other (yes, he helped destroy the Death Star but Luke played a larger role). I wonder if at that point Lucas still thought Luke and Leia would end up together. The Jedi don't tell Luke the truth about his father even though he's going to face him. Why not? The only reason is because Lucas wanted to have a dramatic reveal. And even the soap opera twist - great as it is, does muddle the message in ROTJ's finale. Luke's refusing to strike down a defeated enemy and his father murderer's and Vader's sacrifice is even more impactful if they're not related. Not saying that I don't love the family dynamics in the saga.

Still enjoy the movie, of course but the meat of the story is definitely Dagobah and Luke/Vader scenes.

smittysgelato Specifically 1 2 3 & 6

That's Lucas right there. He never sells evil as cool or badass.

A lot of fans (typically male) have some sort of a Vader fetish and don't want to see the man behind the mask with human vulnerabilities. Hence an optimistic "yippee" yelling kids and a moody teenager is not what they wanted. They didn't even like Sebastian Shaw at the end of ROTJ that much (too kind or something). I even suspect Rian Johnson picked up on that and made fun of Kylo Ren's obsession with Vader and basically told the fans to "let the past die".

So what does ESB retcon? I’ve heard this argument before and it’s always baffled me. Lucas has admitted in the past that he made ANH as if it was going to be a one off as he had no clue if he would ever be able to make the sequel(s), however at the same time leaving it open ended for such a sequel. Sure, if ANH was going to be the only Star Wars ever, it was made in a way we could extrapolate out from the ending that the Empire eventually loses, obviously not over night though. However, the main villain survives the movie, the Emperor still controls the galaxy, and the Empire (while suffering a pretty big loss) is still in charge and still has its tremendous Imperial Fleet to keep its boot on the galaxy. Remember, the Death Star was only days old (operationally), the Empire was able to subjugate the galaxy for decades prior to the Death Star. The Death Star was the metaphorical cherry on top, the super weapon that would mean total control rather than almost total control. We know the Imperial Fleet is out there as it is mentioned in ANH when the Imperial Officers were bickering about the capabilities of the Rebel Alliance.

ESB doesn’t retcon anything. Vader survived, the seat of Imperial power survived, the Imperial Fleet survived (we won’t see its full capacity until ROTJ). ESB is a continuation from that loss where we see the Empire still has tremendous military power, power that it had prior to the Death Star. And in ESB we see that the Rebels are in fact starting to form a much larger gathering because of the win at Yavin. The Hoth base is just a small section of the Rebel Alliance. At the end of ESB we finally see what the Alliance is becoming as we get a glimpse of the young Rebel fleet, it’s full scope we won’t see until ROTJ. Again, this is the extrapolation we expected from ANH. The destruction of the Death Star leading to an over night collapse of the Empire is never hinted at in ANH.




Well I wouldn’t say no one gets any development... but.. at the end of the day the overall story is Luke and Vader’s. In ANH, who got the most development? Luke did. Leia is pretty much the same person from start to finish. The same with Obi Wan, and Han only gets development at the very end. That’s because ANH is Luke’s story. ESB is Luke and Vader’s, but, the others still get development. Han is shown as being someone that is connected to people, not causes. He sticks around the Rebels, not because of Ideology, but because of the personal connections he has made. He stays for Luke and Leia. Leia develops from a crass ideologue who won’t give time for, or admit to her fondness for her personal connections until the end when she realizes she might lose one of those connections (sound familiar? Cause it should if you’re a prequel fan).




I think you have missed out on some extremely important nuance in the Leia/Han relationship. First of all, there has been some time since ANH, so there is an understanding that relationships have become tighter between the three. So with Han and a Leia we can assume that something happened that has given way to the sexual tension between the two. It’s pretty clear they both have feelings for each other, yet both are extremely pigheaded and stubborn to the point where neither will let their guard down. Han at least gives off the vibe he is interested in Leia, but, because of his stubbornness he won’t put his arrogant nature to the side. He wants Leia to admit it first, rather than he pursuing her openly. It’s clear Han could leave anytime he wants, he instead stays. When he does decide to leave It’s clear that Han wants Leia to hear he’s leaving. He could have had his conversation about leaving with General Rieekan in private and discreetly left. However he wanted Leia to hear he was leaving. He wanted her to give him a reason to stay, to admit her feelings for him. Han won’t let his guard down to maybe express his feelings for her first to give her an excuse to capitulate, instead he wants an admission before he gives in.

Leia is just as stubborn as Han if not more so. At least Han gives off the vibe of interest. Leia uses the Rebellion as an excuse to keep Han close. It’s clear that she has followed in the footsteps of her Mother, Padme, and devoted her time and life to ideology and little else to personal life. She won’t admit to herself that she has feelings for Han, so she uses excuses of the Rebellion needing him in order to keep him close to her.

Because neither side is willing to admit their feelings, this leads to the tension we see between them. After the attack on Hoth, when they are both alone together we see they both start to lighten up. Han becomes more willing to pursue rather than look for an admission he could hold over Leia, and Leia starts to realize that in the absence of the Rebellion there is time for her to be a person and not a leader. Finally, as it seems she is about to be separated from Han forever, she fully embraces her feelings. Again, that scenario should sound extremely familiar.



Clearly the Jedi (Obi Wan and Yoda) were more concerned with the emotional strain that the truth would have on Luke, at least before he was fully trained. Yes, Lucas wanted a dramatic reveal, but, that doesn't automatically exclude an in-universe answer from existing. It is clear, even from ANH, that the Jedi are hiding that piece of information from Luke. 

As Luke races off to help Han and Leia, Obi Wan and Yoda are not sure if Vader will reveal the truth or not (see ROTJ). In the end though it is Luke that has picked his path forward, it is Luke that instead of being patient, allowed his attachments to dictate an emotional and rash response (Prequels again). Luke put himself on the path toward learning the truth in the most horrid way possible. Remember, Obi Wan could not help him, because it was Luke's test and Luke's burden to bare. 

That moment with the Younglings was incredibly shocking. Of course people make jokes about it now, so I feel like a lot of people have forgotten just how bold it was for Lucas to choose to go there. 

But I would say it was the right choice. I mean, is Darth Vader as evil as evil can be, or isn't he? I think he has to be, in order for his redemption to have maximum impact. So he has to do just about the most despicable thing a person could ever do.  

In  a way, it's a different kind of darkness than the kind that was depicted in Empire. Aside from his mutilation and attempted murder of his own son (the impact of which is somewhat blunted by Luke's age and capability), the bulk of Vader's evil acts in the movie consist of him strangling his own baddies to death and making ironic quips afterwards. A lot of it is that sort of "cool" evil that many people like so much. 

It's a different thing when you're seeing Anakin, fully unmasked and visibly human, slaughtering small children. That's Lucas making a serious point, and challenging you to either accept what he's saying or go home. For me, it was one of those moments where everything clicked. That's the core of evil--the destruction of innocence. In hindsight, what else could Lucas have had Anakin do?