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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Jul 29, 2020 14:58:13 GMT
Unlearn What You Have Learned now with Ministry of Cinema's "The Prequels Strike Back: A Fan's Journey"!
Interesting documentary that came out in September 2016 about the prequels. While you still have to buy the full thing, the prologue is free to watch on YouTube.
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Post by Somny on Jul 29, 2020 16:33:26 GMT
This is a great documentary! Here's my mini-review from 2016:
The makers of the documentary also produced some supplemental content exploring the prequel love beyond what's in the film. Be sure to check it out on their website. Cool stuff!
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Jul 31, 2020 20:44:27 GMT
Interview with Bradley Weatherholt, the writer/director of the documentary.
Update
I've been re-listening to this interview and I notice Weatherholt making a not unnoticeable number of concessions to the bashers. A lot of you hardened prequelists with deplore him for such. I, however, would be keen to cut him some slack: he was doing this in 2016, which was at least 2 years before it became fashionable to talk openly online about positive interpretations of the prequels. If he was to make this documentary again, or a follow up, I would be expecting a lot more from him. The film would need a change of mindset: to be less reactionary (ie responding to common basher critiques), and more unapologetically pro-PT (ie starting from the premise that the prequels are good, and then showing why. eg Ring Theory). His film served a purpose at the time.
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Post by Somny on Aug 3, 2020 20:57:56 GMT
I noticed and audibly groaned. However, this documentary is still a beacon of light amid a seemingly limitless darkness. It's exceptionally well-made with a strong premise founded on disaffection with a reigning mentality and responded to with honest, rigorous inquiry. Mr. Weatherholt may yet be nursing some questionable ideas but his work here is a potent seed. Also, I don't think he hired a publicist for these sorts of media appearances.
And I have to admit that the floated notion that "ROTJ was the first prequel" made me smile. First time I'd heard that.  |
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Aug 3, 2020 22:56:52 GMT
"Potent seed" is a great analogy. It was more focused on showing the light to the bashers than in appealing to us, and that makes perfect sense. No need for preaching to the converted, as they say.
The reality is that the backlash against TLJ likely had more of an impact in changing some people's minds about the PT, but I like to think this documentary did something. They should consider putting it up on YouTube for free now.
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Post by Somny on Aug 3, 2020 23:11:02 GMT
I've interacted with Bradley on LinkedIn in the past, albeit briefly. We could call for a vote of free availability...
(In other words, run that idea by him.)
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Post by jppiper on Aug 4, 2020 0:59:45 GMT
I noticed and audibly groaned. However, this documentary is still a beacon of light amid a seemingly limitless darkness. It's exceptionally well-made with a strong premise founded on disaffection with a reigning mentality and responded to with honest, rigorous inquiry. Mr. Weatherholt may be yet nursing some questionable ideas but his work here is a potent seed. Also, I don't think he hired a publicist for these sorts of media appearances.
And I have to admit that the floated notion that "ROTJ was the first prequel" made me smile. First time I'd heard that. ROTJ The First Prequel? |
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Aug 4, 2020 1:25:47 GMT
I've interacted with Bradley on LinkedIn in the past, albeit briefly. We could call for a vote of free availability...
(In other words, run that idea by him.)
Yeah, if we had a podcast, he'd be a fantastic guest. Here's what I'd ask him:
1. Opinion on how the fandom's relationship to the PT has evolved since your documentary, nearly 4 years ago now! 2. Thoughts on the prequel meme phenomenon, which became a big thing in 2017. 3. Happy to see Lucas's reputation on the internet improve dramatically? Seems like you'd have to go back to pre-TPM to see it as strong. 4. Thoughts on the completed Sequel Trilogy? Abrams and Johnson have got a taste of their own medicine now. Might better understand what Lucas was up against. 5. Opinion on the geek media suddenly enabling ST critique after going to create lengths to cancel such dissenters for 2 straight years. 6. What films or documentaries have you worked on since TPSB
His YouTube channel has been dormant for 2 years. Twitter account likewise, barring a retweet last year. What's up?
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Post by Somny on Aug 4, 2020 1:32:03 GMT
jppiper In the radio interview with Weatherholt posted above, Weatherholt refers to the fact that some fans consider ROTJ "the first prequel." I suppose this view has to do with ROTJ's more latter-day Lucasian idiosyncracies like a stepped-up employment of a lighter tone and comedic elements (i.e. Jabba's palace musical numbers and Ewoks) as compared to ANH and TESB. Damnable prequelist that I am, I think that moniker is great! Long live the prequel quadrilogy!
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Post by Subtext Mining on Aug 4, 2020 10:59:22 GMT
"RotJ is the first prequel." Cryo and I have been essentially saying that for at least 4 years now. I think the way I first worded my observation was something along the lines of, "As early as the second half of ESB and definitely by RotJ, we see SW evolving into what would be Lucas' M.O. for the prequels."
*I can't remember if Cryo had already been saying that, or if he agreed with me and elaborated.
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Post by Cryogenic on Aug 4, 2020 19:50:28 GMT
"RotJ is the first prequel." Cryo and I have been essentially saying that for at least 4 years now. I think the way I first worded my observation was something along the lines of, "As early as the second half of ESB and definitely by RotJ, we see SW evolving into what would be Lucas' M.O. for the prequels." *I can't remember if Cryo had already been saying that, or if he agreed with me and elaborated. Yes! Well, I semi-remember. In any case, in deference to Arch Duke and his desire not to have existing conversations run off-topic, I've started a new thread about it. I realised my response to you was getting too long, so I thought it only right to branch off. Instead of each thread turning into a raging river, we need a decent number of tributaries. Anyway, go take a look there.  Unfortunately, that's the happiest I can possibly be in this thread. I'm not knocking anyone else's enthusiasm, of course. Interview with Bradley Weatherholt, the writer/director of the documentary.
Update
I've been re-listening to this interview and I notice Weatherholt making a not unnoticeable number of concessions to the bashers. A lot of you hardened prequelists with deplore him for such. I, however, would be keen to cut him some slack: he was doing this in 2016, which was at least 2 years before it became fashionable to talk openly online about positive interpretations of the prequels.
What I deplore him for is not so much that, but for censoring me (and others) on an entirely separate location for pointing it out. And after I donated money to the production team on their website, anticipating the project with much enthusiasm, to boot. boards.theforce.net/threads/the-prequels-strike-back-a-star-wars-documentary.50030588/page-9#post-52637667Now, as you can see if you check the link, deletions were made ostensibly because people were commenting on pre-release material that was apparently leaked (though I'm not sure any of us realised it at the time). However, it also had the effect of destabilising my response, and the responses of several other posters, because the material we were commenting on was knocked out. The thread was later closed and made to seem like personal attacks were the issue, but I have previously established that this is a common theme on TFN when the mods are practising censorship for other reasons. In addition, I have other information (private) clarifying that it wasn't closed for personal attacks. My conclusion then, and now, is that the makers didn't want me or others bashing their precious little documentary -- so they actively interfered with a third-party website and actually had discussion quashed. These are the sort of actions I don't forget or forgive. I have never seen this documentary and have no intention of ever doing so. But I felt like posting this so other people can be made aware of who (or what) you're dealing with here. They don't play fair. They're as bad (or worse) than Disney. I abhor censorship and don't appreciate having my posts tampered with, least of all at the behest of outside forces. My opinion of someone tends to be immediately lowered when they manipulate things to silence others. If my name is mentioned in this thread again, I shall be ignoring it. My intention here is not to guilt-trip anyone else into not liking the documentary, or forbidding them from discussing it (even though the makers did that to me). I just wanted to impart a harsh reality here. I sure learned my lesson. Don't give money easily. And be very careful who you place your trust in. |
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Aug 4, 2020 23:12:49 GMT
That's understandable, you contributed to the funding and weren't treated too nice for giving feedback. I had no idea of this little episode of TFN history. I'm not sure I would have started this thread the same way if I did, or perhaps not at all.
Speaking of new threads, one might describe that action of purposely not watching a SW doc or film as Rinzlering. I was surprised to recently learn that Jonathan hasn't seen any film post-Rogue One. Best stick to my words and keep discussion of that matter in its own thread though 
I wonder why material from his doc would be leaked?
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Post by Cryogenic on Aug 5, 2020 0:26:20 GMT
That's understandable, you contributed to the funding and weren't treated too nice for giving feedback. I had no idea of this little episode of TFN history. I'm not sure I would have started this thread the same way if I did, or perhaps not at all. Don't worry about it. It's me being a grump; just, hopefully, a justified grump. Prequel fans would naturally be interested in a documentary like this (I assume), so I take no particular issue with your thread per se. You weren't to know, and unlike the people behind the documentary, I don't believe in imposing censorship. Ha! Nice term, at least. We should try and promulgate it.  I'm not sure it even was; or if it was, it might have been deliberate, to test the waters. I don't have much of an inclination to peruse the older thread (I was able to locate my original post quickly with a Google search), so my memory could be off, but what I recall is that it seemed like legitimate pre-release material, and was only erased from the thread at a much later date. *Cryo begins to contradict himself and gets overly involved as usual* Using the Wayback Machine, here's an uncensored version of the page from September 21st 2015. Link takes you to my post (because I'm an egotist?), but you can read the whole page, and get a sense of what happened. I'm not looking this second, but maybe snapshots of the other pages (or some of them) are also available. Note that there are only two snapshots available of that particular page, and that one, unfortunately, is the most recent. I say "unfortunately"; because it would be good to see when the interference took place: when the posts had content erased. They hadn't yet. But what's interesting is that my original post dates to August 28th 2015, and it obviously hadn't been censored by the date of the snapshot, almost four weeks later. So the censorship was imposed after some delay. I do remember that being the case. The posts were likely tampered with when the thread was closed, and the thread wasn't closed until September 23rd 2015. That one there is a contemporary link, and annoyingly, the closing post dates to only two days after the most recent archive snapshot of Page 9 presented above. So the Wayback Machine was at least able to preserve a snapshot of the original post content (well, all the posts on Page 9, anyway), but missed out on documenting the skulduggery that subsequently took place following the thread's closure. It's impossible to date when that happened without more snapshots closer to the time. Maybe some of the other pages have slightly more recent snapshots. I mean, how ridiculous, too. Not only were posts censored, but the thread was locked up tight. A thread about a documentary defending the prequels, on the leading Prequel Trilogy forum on the Internet! So nobody could say anything about the documentary from that point. At least, not in its own dedicated thread. Which seems about right. Prequel fans getting the short straw and being treated as infants and silenced yet again. And also, just to drive the point home: here is further proof those mods on TFN make everything seem like it's to do with personal attacks, but they have ulterior motives. |
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Aug 5, 2020 16:23:36 GMT
Cryogenic Do you have evidence that Bradley Weatherholt directly interfered with TFN? Does he have an account there? I'd be inclined to blame the forum for the censorship, but I guess that's a whole other issue which you've spoken of in greater detail elsewhere.
If we get our podcast running I'm still up for interviewing him. Who knows, he might have changed his tune on concessions. It was 4 years ago, which is the same length of time it took one famous SW character for a change of heart...
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Post by Cryogenic on Aug 5, 2020 19:37:21 GMT
Cryogenic Do you have evidence that Bradley Weatherholt directly interfered with TFN? Does he have an account there? I'd be inclined to blame the forum for the censorship, but I guess that's a whole other issue which you've spoken of in greater detail elsewhere. If you wanted, you could argue it's a mixture. After all, the mods at TFN were the ones who did the silencing, and they might genuinely have been unhappy with fans appearing to attack one another, or getting rowdy. But make no mistake, the documentary makers did silence us via the moderators. I know because I am in direct possession of a confession from a moderator about it. I re-read their confession just now. Unfortunately, if I publicly share it, I might get others in trouble, and that's not something I want to do. So fuck those people, basically. They didn't want their widdle documentary being mauled (or simply questioned) by loyal prequel fans -- prequel fans who were still looking forward to the damn thing, prequel fans who even made donations in advance! Pathetic behaviour. IMO, anyway.
Yeah, you can do that, if you like. It's unlikely I'll take part, but I certainly wouldn't want to obstruct you in any way. Again, unlike those documentary makers, I am not some sort of capitalist-fascist who believes that censoring others is the way to go.
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Post by Somny on Aug 6, 2020 1:07:48 GMT
More like Weatherhalt!
Seriously though, it's a shame that happened. Thanks for bringing it to light, Cryo. I will adjust my enthusiasm toward the filmmakers accordingly.
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Post by Cryogenic on Aug 6, 2020 7:41:27 GMT
More like Weatherhalt!
Seriously though, it's a shame that happened. Thanks for bringing it to light, Cryo. I will adjust my enthusiasm toward the filmmakers accordingly.
Nice. Again, I'm not trying to trick anyone out of liking the documentary, or dissuading them from talking about it, but just be aware. Ultimately, I guess it's just a bit sad that prequel fans still (for want of a better metaphor) get shat upon in various ways. Maybe that's what really sticks in my craw. I think the documentary was an outstanding idea, and it's probably quite positive and interesting overall, but there was absolutely no need to silence people on a third-party website, just because they were criticising some bits that came out and were trying to make sense of them. That's really bad form. If you want to pull that crap, documentary makers, do it on your own damn website. How dare you interfere elsewhere. |
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