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Post by eljedicolombiano on Apr 5, 2020 16:49:50 GMT
I don't have Disney plus, so I don't have access to the 4K versions of the six Star Wars films, but I've been reading online talk about how the movies have a different look from the Blu-ray transfers. If anyone has insight into this I'd like to hear, as I'm still on the fence of buying these versions or not.
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Post by Ingram on Apr 5, 2020 18:13:47 GMT
Note that the recent 4K discs releases are not identical to what is currently streaming on Disney +, if for no other reason than the inherent differences between streaming and hard copy. Anyhow, Blu-ray.com is typically the optimal, semi-professional source for what you can expect in terms of picture quality and any discrepancies with prior home video releases. The site has been currently reviewing the saga one installment day-by-day. You can start here with A New Hope. |
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Post by stampidhd280pro on Apr 5, 2020 20:03:48 GMT
The 4K transfers are from when Lucasfilm was preparing the 6 existing SW films to be released in 3D. The 4K cuts of the prequel trilogy, aside from being higher quality, are more or less comparable to the BluRay releases from 10 years ago. There are minor differences I noticed in the sound effects however. The original trilogy are entirely new scans of the 1997 Special Editions, with most of the DVD and BluRay tweaks re-composited! They are basically brand new versions. The color coding is much brighter and less saturated than the DVDs and BluRays, making them look more like the theatrical cuts, if not a little faded or white. That being said, the OT especially ROTJ, looks better than it has in years. The skin tones are never red or purple, and every lightsaber shot looks perfect. All of them. Every shot, including the white sabers in ANH, and the faintly glowing stick Obi-Wan swings in that one shot. I think I even noticed the matte boxes in space battles are no longer visible, but don't hold me to that. These cuts were meant to be shown in modern theaters in 3D and it shows. Here's a page where someone listed all the changes they found: thedigitalbits.com/featured/articles/sw-new-hope-disneyplus-4k-2019 |
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Post by jppiper on Apr 5, 2020 21:51:30 GMT
Of Course The Fans will whine about the Original Theatrical Cuts not being released
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Post by Somny on Apr 6, 2020 3:21:26 GMT
The re-done color timing of the OT on the new 4K discs is a stand-out feature. The look of the OT on DVD and Blu-ray always felt overly saturated and manipulated. As a result, it's refreshing to see white snow on Hoth and naturally colored explosions during the Battle of Endor.
Also, there was a registration (out-of-focus) issue on the ROTJ Blu-ray that lasted a whole reel! That's been fixed.
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Post by Cryogenic on Apr 6, 2020 9:33:40 GMT
The re-done color timing of the OT on the new 4K discs is a stand-out feature. The look of the OT on DVD and Blu-ray always felt overly saturated and manipulated. As a result, it's refreshing to see white snow on Hoth and naturally colored explosions during the Battle of Endor. Yes. From what I can see, many of the frames now look more naturalistic, understated, and more "of their time" -- which, in a way, is how you want it. George tried to make the OT look too modern by pumping up the colour, crushing down blacks, etc. It kinda worked when it came out on DVD in 2004, but in this era of very good remasters, it was time to return these iconic movies to a more "filmic" appearance. That issue was so obnoxious! I don't know how they missed it in 2004. Quality control: what's that? Probably justifies the new masters all by itself. |
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Post by Alexrd on Apr 14, 2020 16:39:27 GMT
Since I don't have any 4K equipment, I've ordered the new Blu-ray set from the UK for a relatively cheap price since they have the new transfers. I'll post a review whenever it arrives.
I'm still not sure about the new aspect ratio and the new transfers of the PT. I have a feeling the 2011 release is the best version of them.
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Post by Cryogenic on Apr 14, 2020 17:17:12 GMT
Since I don't have any 4K equipment, I've ordered the new Blu-ray set from the UK for a relatively cheap price since they have the new transfers. I'll post a review whenever it arrives. I'm still not sure about the new aspect ratio and the new transfers of the PT. I have a feeling the 2011 release is the best version of them. Yes. I think I'm going to take back what I wrote above. I was watching some 4K clips on YouTube, and while the detail is nice, the brightness and saturation of the OT transfers (haven't explored the PT yet) makes them appear drab, disappointing, and unfinished. It's one thing to have healthy, naturalistic colours, and quite another to put out releases that haven't been tweaked and look like they're one or two stops underexposed. Compare the newly-released transfers to the 4K transfer done for "Lawrence Of Arabia". Night and day difference. I know LOA was shot on 65 mm by a cinematic genius, but hey, Star Wars ain't exactly chopped liver -- so what gives? Gorgeous. LOA is certainly one of the greatest films ever made. It's fantastic that it now looks, well... fantastic. Now let's turn out attention back to Star Wars and the issue at hand: Here's an example from TESB. I know it's a "darker" film than ANH, but look at the ship interiors in this clip. At first, you might think, "This looks cool" -- moody, if you will. But that effect wears off fast. It's too grubby-looking now. Play enough clips, and if you're like me, you'll quickly start craving the brighter, more saturated look of the 2011 masters. Take a look at the Falcon interior at 1:20 when Chewie walks across to hand Han the hydrospanner. It looks very muggy. And then notice the light panels in the maintenance pit where Han is working. Blatant teal tint. While the actor himself displays accurate flesh tones in the same shot. Blacks and greys persistently look purple. Whites are strongly teal-shifted. It's all wildly out of balance. It seems like they rushed this thing out without doing any calibration. As problematic as the DVD/Blu-ray transfers may have been from Lucas (black crush, over-amped colours, noise reduction, and fake grain), they at least were bright and readable, with rich and pleasing space-fantasy tones. While these new clips are too dark, have weird colour casts, and seem to be seriously chroma-impaired. |
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Post by Somny on Apr 14, 2020 17:57:42 GMT
Most 4K (with HDR) clips on YouTube I've viewed usually look somewhat desaturated and drab. I don't know why this is. It may be the result of a trend in remastering for 4K to subdue the intensity of color and play up the filmic qualities. Not my technical speciality, unfortunately.
With regard to the issue of the OT on 4K, maybe it was Lucas attempting to restore the analog identity of the OT after years of wanting it to more exactly match the PT.
PT: "As you see, my Digital powers are far beyond yours. Now, back down." OT: "Okay."
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Post by Alexrd on Apr 14, 2020 18:45:52 GMT
Just to clarify, I'm not sure about the PT. But the new scan of the OT seems to have some improvements when compared to the 2011 versions. That said, from the samples I've seen, ROTJ (and ANH to some extent) seems to have a beige filter applied throughout the whole movie which mutes most of the other colours. For example, there's no lush green on the forests of Endor and the roofs on Naboo.
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Post by Cryogenic on Apr 14, 2020 20:02:34 GMT
Most 4K (with HDR) clips on YouTube I've viewed usually look somewhat desaturated and drab. I don't know why this is. It may be the result of a trend in remastering for 4K to subdue the intensity of color and play up the filmic qualities. Not my technical speciality, unfortunately. I think you're onto something here. The watch-word is HDR. The HDR effect doesn't translate to YouTube and standard 24-bit colour image encoding, so video samples and screenshots can end up looking flatter and worse than their non-HDR 2K equivalents. It's weird how that happens, given that HDR is meant to produce a far better contrast and more vivid colours. I'm also unsure about the technical side of it. I used to be a little more conversant on such things. However, if there has been a deliberate dialling down of colours, or a refusal to go too vivid, that is something else. "Lawrence Of Arabia" doesn't show those issues. Nor, for the record, do any high-quality 4K uploads I've seen of the newer films (yes, Darth Disney) on YouTube. These OT transfers are the first I've seen that look blatantly off. I also checked the PT ones. Or ROTS, anyway. Same thing. Poor brightness, subdued colours. Compare these two, for example (new 4K version followed by older 4K version -- the older one is presumably an upscaled 2011 Blu-ray rip): New version: Old version: If you advance to around the 40-second mark, where Obi-Wan quips, "Flying is for droids", the darkness of the new transfer is very evident in the exterior shot of the missiles exploding and releasing the buzz droids. The hull of the Star Destroyer at the left of frame is much more overcast/shadow-y in the new transfer. Ugh. This seems like it might be a deliberate choice for people with very strong brightness on their TVs. That way, the image isn't too bright to begin with, and you can adjust it as you please. But on YouTube, these clips are noticeably duller than prior ones sourced from the earlier DVD and Blu-ray releases. LOL! I love Star Wars fan humour. But those OT transfers really aren't right. Especially the TESB one. There's no way the colours are meant to look like that. The film appears not to have been graded correctly for this new release. Just to clarify, I'm not sure about the PT. But the new scan of the OT seems to have some improvements when compared to the 2011 versions. That said, from the samples I've seen, ROTJ (and ANH to some extent) seems to have a beige filter applied throughout the whole movie which mutes most of the other colours. For example, there's no lush green on the forests of Endor and the roofs on Naboo. Right. What is up with this weird diddling? Lucas obviously wanted lushness in these scenes/settings for a long time. I know he has gone back and forth on some matters, but I can't imagine him going back on a bigger system feature like this. Then again, there have been so many alterations throughout the years, maybe it's time to just roll with it. |
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Post by Alexrd on Apr 14, 2020 21:48:36 GMT
Lawrence of Arabia is a great movie and got an excellent restoration for the Blu-ray, which I happen to own. But it's an entirely different type of movie. What was shot is what we get. It's not fair to compare it to Star Wars, which are effects movies. The footage shot is only part of the whole picture. There's a lot of manipulation and post production.
The new different color timing could be a result of how things have changed as far as remastering and creating DIs go. Have you guys seen the new Matrix Blu-rays? The color timing is very different from the old Blu-rays. It's much more bright and it has much less contrast.
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Post by Cryogenic on Apr 14, 2020 22:26:51 GMT
Lawrence of Arabia is a great movie and got an excellent restoration for the Blu-ray, which I happen to own. But it's an entirely different type of movie. What was shot is what we get. It's not fair to compare it to Star Wars, which are effects movies. The footage shot is only part of the whole picture. There's a lot of manipulation and post production. I said that the Disney movies don't display those issues, either. I've seen clips for TROS in 4K on YouTube, and they all look pretty great. That being said, those are much newer films, of course. But it doesn't really look like one integrated saga, anymore. Of course, some people would say it never was, once Lucas left! Could be. It's not to my tastes. They got it perfect with "Lawrence Of Arabia", "Close Encounters Of The Third Kind", and other big releases. I find it hard to believe "The Empire Strikes Back" originally looked as dull as these clips make it. At this rate, I'm sticking with the 2011 versions. |
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Post by Alexrd on Apr 14, 2020 22:32:32 GMT
Yeah, Hoth lost its blue-ish hues and became more gray.
I don't know. I guess I'll have to see them in motion. I'm more worried about the PT though. Specially TPM. I think the 2011 Blu-ray is going to still be the best version of the movie.
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Post by Cryogenic on Apr 14, 2020 22:47:29 GMT
Yeah, Hoth lost its blue-ish hues and became more gray. To my eyes, it's more of a grey-green. It gives it a very bleachy look. The blue may have been intense, but it made it look more striking -- in my opinion, anyway. Now the Hoth scenes, like other scenes I've been watching, may look sharp as an axe blade, but they appear dulled down and lack pop. Well, I've been watching them in motion, on YouTube. Although only clips of TESB and a few from ROTS seem to be available at present. ROTS survives better, with no aggressive colour shifting I can see. It's just generally plagued by the dullness I mentioned -- affecting brightness, contrast, and saturation levels. Do you have specific concerns regarding TPM? I've seen you say you don't like the DNR that was heavily applied in places before. Are you hoping that has been improved? I'm eager to know. But I'm guessing it can only look so much better because all the editing and effects work was applied to a 2K scan. |
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Post by Alexrd on Apr 14, 2020 22:57:00 GMT
I don't trust Youtube clips on HDR to SDR conversions, for any movie. They never do it right. Here's a proper comparison I found taken from TESB (2011 vs 2020):   The new one is more sharp, has less noise, but it loses the cold feeling of the 2011 master. |
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Post by Cryogenic on Apr 14, 2020 23:10:48 GMT
Yeah. They went a little OTT with the enhancements to the OT (OTT-OT?) in 2003/2004, when Lowry Digital originally did the transfers in 2K. The blown-out sky is very noticeable in the top shot. And darker parts were also crushed down, causing a loss of detail in shadow areas. But I guess I liked the boost in saturation and the general colour timing they went with. This new version is far too bleached-looking. In my opinion, the new version should look more like this:  |
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Post by Ingram on Apr 14, 2020 23:58:49 GMT
Internet clips never do justice to the issue at hand, even where (in)consistencies from one set of clips to the next might seemingly reinforce the argument. Without a proper sized 4K screen/setup, the full results and intent of whatever the transfer is nigh impossible to judge accurately, let alone appreciate. As for the side-by-side Hoth screen pics above, you're noting how one emphasizes a certain atmospheric tone over the other yet always keep in mind that no such comparisons exist when actually watching, say, the 4K transfer at length on its own; the on-screen setting will likewise "feel cold" on its own when flowing with all other scenes and settings uniformed in the same transfer, and without your sensory brain processing any discrepancies via a Blu-ray transfer that in the same instant is, well, not being processed.
Where 4K generally succeeds is in translating the 'projected light' light effect-and-colorization of an actual theater-going experience -- the original theatrical chroma-quality, the palette native to the film print, or closer to than ever before -- wherein the often slightly subdued or in this case, with snow enviorns, grayscaling artifact is a common trait of said format. A similar example is the Blu-ray transfer of Jurassic Park versus its 4K counterpart. Where the 2011 Blu-ray blows out both the natural daylight and evocative key lighting with a pale blue tint, the original theatrical 35mm was in fact darker and more earthy in its tropical "amber-like" dusk, with all-around warmer flesh tones and inkier blacks—as better represented by the current 4K scan (along with the 3D Blu-ray). Such was the more humidly, even ominous, prehistoric glow intended by filmmakers, Spielberg and Dean Cundey. Correlating this with whatever Lucas originally intended back during the initial OT run or with the 3D conversion transfers from which these 4Ks were sourced might only complicate matters, but it's at least worth affording the 4K releases their due apraisal from start to finish and under the ideal home-viewing standards.
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Post by Cryogenic on Apr 15, 2020 0:48:19 GMT
Internet clips never do justice to the issue at hand, even where (in)consistencies from one set of clips to the next might seemingly reinforce the argument. Without a proper sized 4K screen/setup, the full results and intent of whatever the transfer is nigh impossible to judge accurately, let alone appreciate. As for the side-by-side Hoth screen pics above, you're noting how one emphasizes a certain atmospheric tone over the other yet always keep in mind that no such comparisons exist when actually watching, say, the 4K transfer at length on its own; the on-screen setting will likewise "feel cold" on its own when flowing with all other scenes and settings uniformed in the same transfer, and without your sensory brain processing any discrepancies via a Blu-ray transfer that in the same instant is, well, not being processed. I don't buy your argument. I get what you're saying, "on paper", so to speak, but I also trust my own eyes, and those Hoth scenes are definitely tinted with a greenish/teal cast. My alternative version removes the cast, for one, and also offers boosted saturation, as well as slightly boosted contrast. Look at the red cyclops eye of the AT-AT in the foreground. It is more of a laser/blood-red in my version and has more pop. And the grey bodies of the AT-ATs stand out more against the white-blue surroundings once you get rid of that groggy green. There is a dull finish to the 2020 4K version posted by Alex. It saps the film of its dramatic power. I think my version is closer to the McQuarrie-esque look that was intended, and is easily attainable, had they spent a bit longer on the transfer. Perhaps your optic system can "adjust" to it, in a global/full-sit-down context, but I'm not sure. I found myself tiring of the few clips I watched very quickly. It just isn't all it could have been, in my opinion.
It's funny you cite "Jurassic Park". I just spent a few moments watching some 4K clips on the same channel I pulled those TESB and ROTS clips from -- and I'm glad I did. This is one of the clips I just watched:
Ol' Cryo, who saw "Jurassic Park" at the tender age of 10 on its original release in 1993, was just crying tears of transcendent joy at how good and accurate the thing looks to its original presentation. I was feeling just like the characters, becoming astonished at the full system overload, all over again. Those clips are absolutely astounding for their colour accuracy and overall fine detail. Perhaps there is a touch of smoothing, but not much, and it looks inherent to the original source. An astonishing presentation. Deeply satisfying to watch -- even, yes, moving. I get none of that from the new 4K Star Wars clips I've seen. Yes, they look sharp, and there is far more detail in the extremes of the image (shadows and highlights), but something has gone hideously wrong with the overall brightness and saturation levels, if you ask me. They have this crisp yet artificial, uncared-for look to them. The colours in the "Jurassic Park" clips may be slightly muted, but only in a way appropriate for an authentic film transfer. The close-ups are especially amazing. There's so much beautiful texture and detail, I could practically smell the leather seats, the green Hawaiian grass, the whiff of Admiral Holdo's Laura Dern's perfume, and a tinge of Jeff Goldblum's man musk. No, but seriously, that is one heck of a faithful digital/archival image, to my eyes. These Star Wars clips aren't remotely inducing the same level of happiness in me.
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Post by Ingram on Apr 15, 2020 4:38:44 GMT
Internet clips never do justice to the issue at hand, even where (in)consistencies from one set of clips to the next might seemingly reinforce the argument. Without a proper sized 4K screen/setup, the full results and intent of whatever the transfer is nigh impossible to judge accurately, let alone appreciate. As for the side-by-side Hoth screen pics above, you're noting how one emphasizes a certain atmospheric tone over the other yet always keep in mind that no such comparisons exist when actually watching, say, the 4K transfer at length on its own; the on-screen setting will likewise "feel cold" on its own when flowing with all other scenes and settings uniformed in the same transfer, and without your sensory brain processing any discrepancies via a Blu-ray transfer that in the same instant is, well, not being processed. I don't buy your argument. I get what you're saying, "on paper", so to speak, but I also trust my own eyes... As you should. I don't think they're lying. But what is presented online might not be entirely faithful in nuance and full bloom to that which appears on a healthy sized 4K television screen, is my point. What we're seeing here in screen-grabs from one to the next is generally accurate, conceptually, regarding palette differences, but color grading choices behind the 4K transfers cater directly to HDR standards and, thus without, ambiance -- dramatic power -- may very well be severely compromised. Even where other 4K finishes pop more vividly online in some manner, such could likely be the result of choices in cinematography and film/digital stock inherent in the productions that lend themselves more favorably or intensely. That being said, admittedly, I am one of those: when in doubt, better to err on the side of "darker" or "moodier" with all things format transfers. Take the following: 2011  2020  Indeed I prefer the latter. It's more...grounded, sober. But also more transporting in the same respect, bespeaking a shadowier 'long ago, far away' storybook primeval-scape. Again, it has about it the aura of a darkened, auditorium projection, where modern conventions tend to push things (old and new) redundantly with televisual saturation boosts beyond whatever the in-camera location/set/production-designs. But that's just me. I haven't yet sat down with the the 4K set to really get the whole of it. It still might not favor so well with my fancies in the long run. But I'll definitely be revisiting this thread to share my assessments one way or another. |
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