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Dooku
May 12, 2020 9:30:17 GMT
Post by Alexrd on May 12, 2020 9:30:17 GMT
Yeah, for some reason people attach a negative emotion to the wording of "throw away character". I think it is possibly an emotional reaction in that they don't like the idea that their favorite character was just merely a tool used to achieve a specific purpose in a story, and would rather believe that the character was always meant for bigger and better things. Too me, Qui Gon falls into the category of throw away character. I think it's more the association with meaninglessness, easily disposable. I don't think any of these characters are any of that, but yes, in the strictest sense of the word, they are "throw away" characters. As far as Dooku's development. Again. He is a very straight forward character. He has no range, he has no arc. He does not change. There is no moment where we have him reflecting on his role or if he is doing something wrong, no range of emotion other than deception and evil. The same is true with most Star Wars characters. Not all characters need an introspective focus or a character arc in order to be important and well thought-out. That's something relegated to an handful of characters. As far as you synopsis of Dooku... I think it is wrong. From the movie, we are never told that he left because of the corruption. We are told because, just like Qui Gon, he knew of the corruption of the Senate, but, he had learned the "truth" that the Sith had now taken over the Senate. He comes out and says that Qui GOn knew of the corruption, but, would never had gone with it had he learned the truth like he (Dooku) had. So the suggestion here from Dooku is not the corruption that forced him out of the Jedi Order. It was him learning from the Trade Federation Viceroy that he was in league with the Sith and the Sith had influence over hundreds of Senators. However, we know this is a lie from Dooku because he is a Sith, and it is clear he had already fallen to the Dark Side before even leaving the Jedi Order. Erasing Kamino from the Jedi Archives, recruiting Jango are things that would have had to happen before he left the order. Even if we go by the re-contextualized story of Sifo-Dyas from The Clone Wars story, it is clear that Dooku was performing this things while Maul was still alive and Dooku would have been still in the Jedi Order. So Dooku's leaving because of corruption is his false face he puts on to hide the fact he has joined Sidious. A false face he needs to start the war that he and Sidious were planning. The fact that Dooku was working for Sidious before he officially left the Jedi doesn't mean he doesn't honestly believe that the Republic and its decadence (born from corruption) needs to be destroyed and replaced. That's what led him to join Sidious in the first place. The promise of control, of the ability to make things right. In the end, in an 'ends justify the means' mindset, he willingly became part of the very evil he wanted to fight against. "Dooku crossed over [to the Sith] for personal reasons and became a Separatist because he was disgusted with the way the Republic was functioning. But Dooku makes the switch on his own accord - nobody makes him do it, no one suggests that he do it, which is different from Anakin. He does so without knowing it or even wanting it and becomes enmeshed in a trap by the Emperor." — Christopher Lee |
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Post by mikeximus on May 29, 2020 5:20:06 GMT
The fact that Dooku was working for Sidious before he officially left the Jedi doesn't mean he doesn't honestly believe that the Republic and its decadence (born from corruption) needs to be destroyed and replaced. That's what led him to join Sidious in the first place. The promise of control, of the ability to make things right. In the end, in an 'ends justify the means' mindset, he willingly became part of the very evil he wanted to fight against. "Dooku crossed over [to the Sith] for personal reasons and became a Separatist because he was disgusted with the way the Republic was functioning. But Dooku makes the switch on his own accord - nobody makes him do it, no one suggests that he do it, which is different from Anakin. He does so without knowing it or even wanting it and becomes enmeshed in a trap by the Emperor." — Christopher Lee Once again, we know from the movie that Dooku's false face reason for leaving the order was that the Sith had taken over. That is right from the movie. His real reason for leaving the Order is that he is a Sith. His reasons for joining the Sith are never explored in the movies. We have Lucas stating in the making of book that he needed an ex-jedi to show that a Jedi could leave the Order, which we can assume was to show that Anakin had options in front of him other than that of lying to the order. Sure, Dooku could have some sort of twisted morality of the end justifies the means (Hitler thought killing millions was justified for the greater good), but again, that is not explored in the movies. I for one try not to take actors words on their characters as gospel. They tend to inflate the importance of their characters, and their roles. Lee's comments lack clarity, and even kind of conflict with itself. Nobody makes Anakin become a Sith, that is one of the most important things that Lucas always talks about with Vader, choice. That Anakin made the wrong choices. Surely Sidious targeted Dooku because he was aware that Dooku was disenfranchised with the Republic, which made turning Dooku to the Dark Side easier, however, I highly doubt Dooku didn't realize what was happening. |
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Dooku
Sept 11, 2020 2:34:47 GMT
Post by jppiper on Sept 11, 2020 2:34:47 GMT
Some People complain that Dooku shows up out of nowhere in AOTC isn't that what they did with Yoda in TESB?
nobody complained about that
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Post by Alexrd on Sept 11, 2020 8:29:49 GMT
Some People complain that Dooku shows up out of nowhere in AOTC isn't that what they did with Yoda in TESB? Not sure what "out of nowhere" means. The character has an established history when he's introduced. But if "out of nowhere" means "first revealed", then the same applies to a lot of other characters. Yoda, Lando, Mon Mothma, Ackbar, etc.. I fail to see the problem either. |
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Post by Somny on Sept 11, 2020 23:53:52 GMT
I always thought the following was cool: - Darth Maul - Fundamental evil
- Count Dooku - Regal evil
- General Grievous - Mechanical evil
All combined make up Darth Vader more-or-less.  |
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Post by Subtext Mining on Jun 13, 2021 20:12:06 GMT
I can’t help but notice a slight similarly in the name Dooku and the Pali word in Buddhist text Dukkha, which means suffering or unsatisfactoriness. Fear, anger, hate lead to Dukkha.  And I like how Lucas pronounces Dooku; doe-ku.  It’s also pretty cool that Christopher Lee can trace his family lineage to Charlemagne. |
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Post by Cryogenic on Jun 13, 2021 21:09:59 GMT
I can’t help but notice a slight similarly in the name Dooku and the Pali word in Buddhist text Dukkha, which means suffering or unsatisfactoriness. Fear, anger, hate lead to Dukkha. And I like how Lucas pronounces Dooku; doe-ku. It’s also pretty cool that Christopher Lee can trace his family lineage to Charlemagne. I don't have much to add to this, except to say: that's a suave-looking younger Dooku/Christopher Lee, looking dashing with a blue saber. Very good root word there. I also think of this word: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DoxaThe word "dokein" is pretty interesting. Two definitions here: www.ourbabynamer.com/meaning-of-Dokein.html"I think he's a she. And I think she's a changeling."(The main villain was originally going to be a Sith witch, until Lucas heard that Christopher Lee was available). www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/doxology"I think that Count Dooku is behind it."
"I think he's a good man."In AOTC, and the PT generally, little is what it seems. |
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Post by Subtext Mining on Aug 3, 2021 4:37:38 GMT
Anyone know what Dooku is referring to when he tells Yoda "You have interfered with our affairs for the last time." Does he mean the Separatists, the Sith, or both? And what affairs specifically?  |
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Post by mikeximus on Aug 3, 2021 5:17:24 GMT
Anyone know what Dooku is referring to when he tells Yoda "You have interfered with our affairs for the last time." Does he mean the Separatists, the Sith, or both? And what affairs specifically? I would imagine it depends on the perspective to a degree. From Yoda’s perspective, Dooku is talking about Yoda’s, the Jedi’s and even by extension the Republics “interference” in the Separatists movement. Even though Yoda has certainly realized by this point that Dooku has fallen to the Dark Side, he (Yoda) hasn’t yet realized that Dooku is a Sith. Falling to the Dark Side does not automatically equate to being a Sith. Which is part of the reason Dooku maintains the mirage to Obi Wan of fighting the Sith and lying through omission that he is a Sith Lord. From Dooku’s perspective, I imagine he’s bought into the Sith way of the Force, and has adopted their History as his own, just as Maul did (at last we’ll have revenge). So I believe Dooku is taking some delight in being able to tell Yoda that he will bo longer be able to meddle in Sith affairs, without Yoda fully grasping what Dooku is saying to him. Kind of Dooku’s own personal inside joke. Just like in ROTS, when Sidious tells the Separatists that he is sending Darth Vader to “take care of them”. The separatists believe it means they will finally be rewarded for their loyalty to the Sith, but, Sidious relishes in the fact he is telling the Separatists, right to their face, that he is going to have them killed, and they don’t realize it. |
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Post by Alexrd on Aug 3, 2021 19:31:40 GMT
I always took it as all of Yoda's interventions on Geonosis against the Separatists (led by Dooku) and their plot. Bringing the army, rescuing the Jedi, fighting the droid forces and finally facing Dooku himself.
Of course, the bigger plot belongs to the Sith and Dooku being a Sith could be referring to that as well. Even though, as Mikeximus pointed out, Yoda doesn't know it.
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Dooku
Aug 12, 2021 12:27:55 GMT
via mobile
jppiper likes this
Post by Subtext Mining on Aug 12, 2021 12:27:55 GMT
Why exactly is Dooku described as "mysterious" in the opening crawl? He was a prominent Jedi for several decades before that. Has he been in hiding since leaving the Jedi? Running the Separatist Movement behind the scenes like a Bin-laden type?
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Post by Alexrd on Aug 12, 2021 15:27:25 GMT
Although he was a Jedi, he didn't become a public figure until he started the separatist movement, something he did openly. But he had disappeared for the last decade, ever since he left the Jedi Order. From the film script:
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Post by Subtext Mining on Aug 13, 2021 8:47:09 GMT
I wonder what Dooku's solutions were to things like the corruption in the government, and the Jedi's role as servants of the Senate (before he turned to the dark side).
It's up to the people, if possible, to vote out corrupt politicians. And as gifted beings with super powers, what better way for the Jedi to protect society than to serve the political body the people elect?
Should the Jedi have stepped away from the Republic until the corruption was rooted out? Would that have just left the Republic all the more vulnerable to growing squabbles? Should they have become vigilantes? Cloistered monks? Did they have too much faith in the Republic?
No easy answers, but intriguing questions none the less.
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Post by Alexrd on Aug 13, 2021 10:05:40 GMT
It's up to the people, if possible, to vote out corrupt politicians. And as gifted beings with super powers, what better way for the Jedi to protect society than to serve the political body the people elect? Exactly. The Jedi are simply dispute settlers that serve the people of the Republic, people who are led and represented by the elected. In a democracy, it's the electorate's responsibility to filter out the corrupt. The fact that they are willing to give away that responsibility is one of the core issues that Palpatine takes advantage of. Dooku's premise for separatism is sound, but unfortunately he fell and his plans go beyond that. |
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Post by thephantomcalamari on Aug 14, 2021 10:10:09 GMT
I wonder what Dooku's solutions were to things like the corruption in the government, and the Jedi's role as servants of the Senate (before he turned to the dark side). It's up to the people, if possible, to vote out corrupt politicians. And as gifted beings with super powers, what better way for the Jedi to protect society than to serve the political body the people elect? Should the Jedi have stepped away from the Republic until the corruption was rooted out? Would that have just left the Republic all the more vulnerable to growing squabbles? Should they have become vigilantes? Cloistered monks? Did they have too much faith in the Republic? No easy answers, but intriguing questions none the less. We could always look to Qui-Gon as an example. Qui-Gon never directly defied the will of the Jedi Council, yet he always managed to find ways to do what he felt must be done. They say he can't train Anakin, fine; so he claims Anakin as his ward and tells Anakin to watch him closely. Qui-Gon is an example of a rebel who finds ways to work within the system to achieve his goals, rather than stepping outside the system or seeking to overthrow it. Perhaps the Jedi Order could have adopted a similar strategy with regards to the Republic. What exactly that would look like when it came to the Clone War I can't say. |
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Post by Subtext Mining on Aug 18, 2021 11:32:33 GMT
That's also basically what Palpatine did. Worked the system that was in place, and more notably, took advantage of the right parts to overthrow it.
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Post by Pyrogenic on Aug 18, 2021 19:31:55 GMT
I once or twice or thrice mused about how Dooku somewhat resembles Jonathan Hales, the only credited PT co-writer (for AOTC), and how Palpatine somewhat resembles Alan Dean Foster, the ghostwriter of the original SW novelization...   |
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Post by thephantomcalamari on Aug 19, 2021 19:20:57 GMT
That's also basically what Palpatine did. Worked the system that was in place, and more notably, took advantage of the right parts to overthrow it. "I will do what I must." "Do what must be done." Very interesting how similar and yet so very different Qui-Gon and Palpatine are. |
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Post by mikeximus on Aug 21, 2021 14:40:13 GMT
Why exactly is Dooku described as "mysterious" in the opening crawl? He was a prominent Jedi for several decades before that. Has he been in hiding since leaving the Jedi? Running the Separatist Movement behind the scenes like a Bin-laden type? I think the "mysterious" description has two explanations. The in-universe reason and story telling reason. I think from the story telling perspective it was a way for Lucas to further push the whole "mystery" aspect of the movie. He wanted to make sure that we, the audience, paid attention to the name because it meant something. He was in essence tipping his hand by telling the audience something was up with Dooku. From the in universe perspective, I think being a "prominent" Jedi is a bit relative. To the billions of citizens of the Republic, of whom the vast vast vast majority of which have never seen a Jedi, Dooku was not known from any other Jedi, until he pops up as the leader of the Separatists, and now he is a known name. So to the billions of people of the Republic, who is this ex-Jedi that is now leading an opposition party that is giving the Jedi a headache across the galaxy. Dooku may not have even been widely known to must Senators. It doesn't seem Dooku was ever on the Council, so his interactions with the government entities would be limited. Even the Jedi themselves, who knew Dooku personally, are operating under the wrong assumption that he is the same person that they once knew him as. He pops back up after 10 years and their arrogance leads them to believe he is in this for the politics and not for nefarious reasons because he was once a Jedi himself. |
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Post by mikeximus on Aug 21, 2021 15:08:06 GMT
I wonder what Dooku's solutions were to things like the corruption in the government, and the Jedi's role as servants of the Senate (before he turned to the dark side). It's up to the people, if possible, to vote out corrupt politicians. And as gifted beings with super powers, what better way for the Jedi to protect society than to serve the political body the people elect? Should the Jedi have stepped away from the Republic until the corruption was rooted out? Would that have just left the Republic all the more vulnerable to growing squabbles? Should they have become vigilantes? Cloistered monks? Did they have too much faith in the Republic? No easy answers, but intriguing questions none the less. I think Dooku's solutions were not too far off from what we see Anakin say in AOTC, in which we know Anakin is mimicking what Palpatine is feeding him. I think that is how Dooku is lured to the dark side, because in the end, his ideology aligns with Palpatine/Sidious. I think Dooku would have been in favor of a centralized government of a few or one, that tells the citizenry what to do. Which is what Anakin hints at when talking to Padme. Dooku probably feels that the Republic system of a representative government is broken. That one person should be in charge of everyone and makes those decisions for everyone. Or a more authoritarian government. If the Jedi broke away from the Republic and started dispensing Justice as they saw fit, than they would become Vigilantes. They themselves than become authoritarian in nature, as they would be dispensing justice, not from the will of the people's voice (the Senate), but from their own moralities, thus cramming their moralities down on those they are judging without a system of due process. That is what, I believe, Dooku wants. So it is an easy answer. The Jedi have to trust in the system that the people built. It is not up to the Jedi to agree or disagree with the will of the people, their job is to carry out the will of the people. Anything else outside of that, and the Jedi become no better than the Sith. |
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