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Post by jppiper on Jun 16, 2022 19:11:29 GMT
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Post by jppiper on Jun 16, 2022 21:39:33 GMT
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Post by nickromancer on Jun 16, 2022 22:02:11 GMT
Not every clone would recognize Obi-Wan if they weren’t from his or Anakin’s company. (I don’t think the blue markings have to mean the veteran is from the 501st, there’s only so many colours and hundreds of battalions). And I think fans have a tendency to take the inhibitor chip to literally. It’s never established in the Clone Wars/Bad Batch that the clones are perpetually in a trance until they die after order 66. George Lucas’s ideas about the veteran clones drinking away their troubles is still valid. |
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Post by jppiper on Jun 16, 2022 22:11:05 GMT
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Post by Cryogenic on Jun 16, 2022 22:38:31 GMT
Arch Duke: On some common complaints:
- Actor's Age
Quit acting like 40 years of age is old. It's certainly not in today's era. And have people not paid attention to the history of casting in American cinema? If a 30 year old year old can play a high school student, then Hayden can definitely play a college-aged Anakin. Also Arch Duke: A lot of people are theorising that Reva is in the Order 66 scene.
Let's do some basic math: Youngling age = 10 years at the very most Time between Episode III and Obi-Wan series = 10 years 10 + 10 = 20 years old Reva does not look 20 years on Tatoinne. More like 30 years. Even if we try to be very generous at 25, that means she would be 15 as a youngling. Teenage youngling anyone?! Conclusion: Reva cannot be in the Order 66 scene at the beginning of Part I. She's much closer to the age of Anakin/Vader, who would be around 33 by this series. Oh, dear... I think the objections to Hayden's appearance are less about his age, per se, and more about the fact he appears as old or older than Obi-Wan. But I guess he is an "old friend". Hayden also appears quite bulky in that flashback sequence, more like his appearance in ROTS than AOTC. So it feels... off. I know I've also done it a bit, but it's probably not a good idea to keep bashing the ST to defend Obi-Wan. Seeker of the Whills has already said he prefers Mark Hamill's performance in TLJ to Ewan's in the series. While there is more basic continuity between this series and the prequels than there is between Luke in TLJ and Luke at the end of ROTJ, I think TLJ may have a certain gravitas that Obi-Wan lacks, whether by execution or design. Obi-Wan seems almost as nihilistic as Luke does at the start of the series, and one can debate how convincing the show's various devices and contrivances are to rouse him out of that state, transforming him into a courageous, optimistic, self-sacrificing Jedi once more. I'm not feeling it as much as I did during the first few episodes. I was worried this would happen. The series is too short, with too much filler; and not the good, compelling kind of "Hamburger Helper" that Lucas came up with in the prequels. The series feels pretty airy now (to me) and not quite gripping or contoured enough. If we're making negative comparisons, then I think Luke's final scene with Leia in the base on Crait has a lot more emotional depth, as short as it is, than Obi-Wan reacting to Tala's death. A crooked comparison? Perhaps. Still, TLJ, whatever its limitations, is a more focused film than this series, which in my opinion is starting to creak under the weight of its contrived direction and lacklustre writing. |
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Post by nickromancer on Jun 16, 2022 23:39:15 GMT
The audience wants Anakin to be “more natural” and thus more earth like. But this is a science fiction story about a distant galaxy, as Hayden Christensen pointed out in an interview for the series, it’s appropriate that Anakin should act the way he does. There’s not enough of Hayden acting as Anakin in this to compare the two really. He sounds older and that is cool but not a criticism of the prequels. |
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Jun 16, 2022 23:40:34 GMT
Oh, dear... I think the objections to Hayden's appearance are less about his age, per se, and more about the fact he appears as old or older than Obi-Wan. But I guess he is an "old friend". Hayden also appears quite bulky in that flashback sequence, more like his appearance in ROTS than AOTC. So it feels... off.
Well, someone's got out the wrong side of bed...
He does not appear as old as Obi-Wan, that's a dubious assertion. You can definitely tell Anakin is older, but the real issue (if one must be so nitpicky) is more than likely the makeup not matching up with the AOTC era. The bulking up was for the Vader bacta tank scenes, they were probably filmed close by. Christensen is playing a character across a wide span on time, and not one that has the luxury of being a bearded sage all the way from II to the force ghosts in VI either, let's not fault him for doing his very best. Anakin's brashness in the practice session most reminded me of his conduct in the Dooku fight. It's definitely not the more measured Anakin we see in the first act of III or the TCW.
We had no idea where Reva originated, I think it was fair to figure to do a calculation in that speculation. Be aware that I never got hung up on the issue, I quickly moved on and accepted the premise that dramatically-speaking it had to be her in the Order 66 scene. The scene would be a terrible waste otherwise. 30 playing 20 isn't uncommon. In the most recent episode Ingram gives a sterling performances, her character has really matured through the series, and I for one am very excited to see what happens in the last episode.
But let's put things into perspective here: Obi-Wan must go from McGregor's version to Guinness's in 9 years. It was a tough sell even at 19 years at the end of the ROTS, it's even tougher now. Star Wars has always had these recasting and ageing hiccups, or even accent change in the case of Anakin in his final moments (how do we explain that?). If we can suspend our disbelieve there, we can continue doing it.
If we're going to be critical, let's focus on the writing and directing. It hit a roadblock last week, admittedly, but it's been a dramatic improvement in this penultimate instalment. We're lucky to have Chow, I'll take her any day before over the two hacks behind the sequels. At least she has confidence in Christensen.
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Post by Cryogenic on Jun 17, 2022 1:04:12 GMT
Oh, dear... I think the objections to Hayden's appearance are less about his age, per se, and more about the fact he appears as old or older than Obi-Wan. But I guess he is an "old friend". Hayden also appears quite bulky in that flashback sequence, more like his appearance in ROTS than AOTC. So it feels... off. Well, someone's got out the wrong side of bed... I probably did. But the boring, shit, TV aesthetics of the show are really bothering me now. I literally cannot stand shaky cam. There was very little of it in the first two episodes. The first two episodes came off as more stately and professional; and John William's lovely theme had real presence in the first episode. I thought the series was off to a reasonably good start, but since then, its true nature has been revealed. Combine the copious shaky cam of the last few episodes with the dull-as-dishwater settings (Daiyu has been the only decent new environment this series has offered), sloppy and contrived writing which was painfully apparent in the fifth episode, terrible action coverage (the base being stormed was a total mess and the worst sequence in the series by a mile), bad visual effects (Vader Force-grabbing the ship and the "hidden" one taking off), hideously boring side characters (Tala, Roken, the pointless re-appearance of Haja), world-breaking, stupid shit (the stormtroopers are firing at that base door for how long and then Reva just cuts it open?), Leia being just a token presence in the last two episodes, and last but not least: a rather dour and empty portrayal of Obi-Wan by Ewan McGregor (I think I'm changing my mind about his acting here), and I'm actually looking forward to the series being over. That said, I did legitimately enjoy the flashback sparring scene between Anakin and Obi-Wan, and I thought Reva fighting Vader at the end was fantastic (if short). But many things around these highpoints were incredibly average and patently cheap in both look and feel. Even the sequel movies, for all their limitations, are far more polished and focused, and just a lot more cinematic. I made the mistake of loading up a bit of TROS and TLJ just now. Both movies feel very solid -- as movies. Then I flicked back to this latest episode of Obi-Wan and it all just seemed so awkward and tired and very fan-film-like by comparison. I know they weren't given the same kind of budget, but "The Mandalorian", from what I've now seen of it, does a better job. In the fifth episode of this series, there was just all this televisual morass to slog through. Seriously, the plotting here was hackneyed and contrived, and the cinematography and editing were pretty bad. It's like all they really cared about was the connection between Obi-Wan and Vader and bringing Reva's story forward. In the process, they forgot to do anything compelling with Obi-Wan and Tala, or Obi-Wan and Leia, or the other side characters, or make the base scenes exciting, tense, and credible. It's all starting to feel like a bit of a con now. Star Wars on television is about as bad as I always feared it would be: small, trivial, average, clunky, mundane. All nine of the Skywalker Saga films are at least possessed of reasonable cinematic heft. None of them commit the sin of shaky cam. They all, in fact, have outstanding camera work and editing, wonderfully accentuated by terrific sound design and brilliant music. And even when they get dark, the movies still find ways of being colourful and having fun. This series is so televisual and cheap by comparison, it actually hurts. Star Wars had genuine regality and poise on the Big Screen. On the little screen, missing all its regular Saga gleam, it's incredibly anonymous and contrived. Sorry, but that's how I'm feeling about things now.
I am focusing on those things. I've made clear the flashback scene is one of the episode's strongest parts. And I don't hold anything against Hayden Christensen. The writing and directing are far more mediocre than they first seemed. I was willing to give this show a proper chance. The first two episodes, to me, were solid and engaging. Then episode three came along and I wasn't sure what to make of it. A first viewing was disappointing. I watched it again and it seemed better, but still a step down from the first two. Then the fourth arrived and I thought it was pretty underwhelming, but gritted my teeth and didn't say anything too harsh about it, hoping the final act of the show would be better. Well, it isn't better. It's just as bad or worse. I mean, yes, the fifth episode was a big improvement over the fourth in some ways, but in other ways, exactly like it. Two episodes in a row where a base is stormed/invaded and not very convincingly. Wow -- what imaginative writing and direction. Sorry, I shouldn't be sarcastic, but it's a big waste of critical story time. As people have pointed out, Leia has also been abducted twice. And as I said earlier, three episodes have ended with Obi-Wan and Leia on a ship. The series isn't really going anywhere and Obi-Wan and Leia have been diminished in the last two. The whole thing has kinda lost me, to be honest. Of course, we're still awaiting the final episode, but the series is starting to look (to me) like more random Disney filler.
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Post by Darkslayer on Jun 17, 2022 2:07:03 GMT
I don’t know Cryo. Perhaps it’s because of how bad the Disney trilogy was, but I’m willing to overlook the cheapness of TV in exchange for a great story. Should it be a movie? Absolutely. But after so many years of Disney-fied Star Wars, if this is what I can get, I’ll take it! Admittedly I am such a prequel fanboy I am easy to please.
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Post by Cryogenic on Jun 17, 2022 3:19:15 GMT
I don’t know Cryo. Perhaps it’s because of how bad the Disney trilogy was, but I’m willing to overlook the cheapness of TV in exchange for a great story. Should it be a movie? Absolutely. But after so many years of Disney-fied Star Wars, if this is what I can get, I’ll take it! Admittedly I am such a prequel fanboy I am easy to please. The series itself is still quite Disneyfied, though. But I take your point. It does a better job feeling like a PT-OT thing than the Sequel Trilogy. I'm not judging anyone's tastes in this matter. I just put the fourth and fifth episodes on and watched them in full again. I'll roll back some of my antipathy and return to my earlier opinion: they're not bad. I think I was getting a little sidetracked in my disdain for the televisual aspects of the series. That said, some things are still pretty off, like when Obi-Wan enters Fortress Inquisitorius and snaps that stormtrooper's neck. It feels too violent for a Jedi and for Obi-Wan's character. Despite contrived writing and low-budget elements, it does feel like they're trying to tell a story; or at least a character caper. A lot is resting on the final episode, however. I'll stop with the negativity and reserve judgement until the series has been brought to a close. |
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Post by Ingram on Jun 17, 2022 3:47:36 GMT
CryogramI think Cryo's been inhaling too much of the bath salts imbedded within my own negative critiques of the show. He was such a happier person at the beginning of the series. Such a polite neighbor, he never bothered anyone... Even the sequel movies, for all their limitations, are far more polished and focused, and just a lot more cinematic. I made the mistake of loading up a bit of TROS and TLJ just now. Both movies feel very solid -- as movies. Then I flicked back to this latest episode of Obi-Wan and it all just seemed so awkward and tired and very fan-film-like by comparison. I'm gonna check you on this one, sir, with a couple distinctions here in favor of Obi-Wan Kenobi. 1. Where it's spinning paper plates, the ST was merely spinning fine China. Which, I posit, is truly the bigger waste of energy? No expense was spared on the latter in terms of budget and scope. The very act of greenlighting a cinema trilogy post-Episode VI held promise of a certain carte blanche and, alas, we ended up with...? Just how much ground was covered? At least Obi-Wan Kenobi has the excuse of being a dumb TV show. 2. Said dumb TV show doesn't piss me right off. There is nothing -- and I mean NOTHING -- in this series at the core of dramatic integrity as plainly, boldface, giraffe-with-its-head-up-its-own-ass stupid as:
"Palpatine's back, I guess. Because:  " But I feel you, though. I definitely think you (and others) leaned into the series way more than I did from the start, and leading up thereto. My expectations were low. Very. I stand by all my criticism but generally in a detached sense, and thus the mediocrity of its televisual narrative/presentation bothers me really only within a prism; beyond, I think I'm able to get the most from its goofy delights and nostalgia whim.
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Post by Cryogenic on Jun 17, 2022 5:56:05 GMT
CryogramI think Cryo's been inhaling too much of the bath salts imbedded within my own negative critiques of the show. He was such a happier person at the beginning of the series. Such a polite neighbor, he never bothered anyone... LOL. Partially... I mean, what I don't get (and with the proviso that I'm trying to avoid being negative here) is how... solid, restrained, steady... those first two episodes were. I just put some of the second episode on again. It sounds stupid to keep harping on it, but I think shaky cam is the epitome of lo-fi, lazy, idiotic filmmaking (or tv-series-making). However, the second episode is remarkably free of it; instead relying repeatedly on careful, locked-off camera positioning, or the camera gracefully tracking round or dollying forwards or backwards. The lighting is careful, too. The visual effects are smooth and crisp. And the action is well-managed. All these things seem to fall away in the second half of the third episode and it feels like it has been downhill since. It's almost like the series is made by two different people. My admiration and enjoyment of the first two episodes is not an illusion; or, at least, I don't think it is. It's because there are solid aesthetics and good technical execution in the first two. But then, once the whole buttfuck Tala/Jedi Path subplot emerges, the series goes a much cheaper and more faux-dramatic direction. There's really some kind of gear-change here and I don't know why. It turns into more of a typical, low-rent television series. Episodes three, four, and five have dynamic moments, to be sure, but it feels like there are more shortcuts made in the writing, in the direction, in the cinematography, in the editing, and in the visual effects. Did Disney just put out the two strongest episodes as a double-feature on purpose for the show's premiere because they knew the other ones were "lesser"? Take Haja. He has a reason to exist in the second episode: a purpose to his character, a role in the narrative, and tics that lend the episode some pep. However, he inexplicably appears in the fifth episode at the rebel base... to what end? What he is doing there? How did he get there? The episode doesn't care to explain and just throws him in. He complains to Obi-Wan that he isn't a babysitter, but that's all he gets to do. Oh, and he carries Obi-Wan's stuff like a good little water-carrier under the Raj. Terrific character development. In a contrived development, he drops Obi-Wan's communicator, and neither he nor Obi-Wan seem to give a damn. I guess that's what he's there for. I really can't think of another reason. I'm confused by that communicator, too. In the first episode, it was a two-way communication between Bail/Breha and Obi-Wan when Obi-Wan answered. In the fifth episode, it starts bleeping again, Obi-Wan answers, and the message is either pre-recorded (i.e., perhaps transmitted a while ago) or Bail is for some reason just "sending" rather than receiving. Also, it's unsubtle as hell. Bail directly mentions Tatooine, Owen, and Luke. So much for secrecy. No code words, no discretion. Nothing. Is Obi-Wan the only one that can answer it? Apparently not, because Reva picks it up at the end of the episode and plays the fragmentary message back herself with ease. That also means the message was somehow "saved" by the device. How? Why? It's so ridiculously contrived; even if it works fine in a basic dramatic context. Oh, and not to get too nitpicky or anything (I guess I accepted all this just fine in the first episode), but that communicator wasn't a communicator in the PT. It was Qui-Gon's holographic transmitter. He uses another device to talk to Obi-Wan and send Anakin's blood sample. Not that we can't use our imaginations and pretend it wasn't modified or whatever; but, like... really? At some point, the dicking with lore, contrivance piled on contrivance, and shallow techniques like shaky cam just get to you. The series started (for me) with a lot of potential. But then it began feeling lazy and half-assed. The first two episodes brought a false sense of security. I thought fans were being ridiculous to savage the episodes as much as they did online (well, on YouTube and Rotten Tomatoes, anyway). But now, in some respects, I can agree with them -- or I can at least respect where they're coming from. I'm probably just foisting too high a standard on the people behind this show. It's certainly not all bad. But what started respectably for me has become a bit middling. There was a lot put forth in the first two episodes that hasn't quite flowered or gone in such a graceful direction. The show is ambling, I feel, toward an okay but shaky conclusion. Yes, Obi-Wan has the excuse of being a silly little TV show. It's working with some quality raw material, though. The ST came out alright in the end. Not spectacular, but the three extant movies all feel reasonably cinematic; and, in places, semi-interesting. I prefer Palpatine being back because it's a good linking device that ties the trilogies together. I guess it's like Qui-Gon's holographic projector getting turned into a galactic communicator. Really exaggerated and out-of-place, but hey, at least it's a prequel gizmo doing a prequel gizmo thing. TROS is colourful and energetic enough to make its premise feel reasonably exciting. There's a rush and a lovely sci-fi-adventure texture to that movie lacking in the other installments. That's always been my contention. It's very heightened. I still like it the most of the three sequel movies. The Obi-Wan series could have been more colourful -- more gauche. Instead, it's neither particularly restrained nor particularly imaginative. Not now. It has its moments. After seeing Daiyu in the second episode, I hoped we might get a couple more colourful planets, and perhaps Obi-Wan getting involved in more adventures. Instead, he got saddled with Leia and then the whole Imperial Base/Rebel Base thing took over. Along with shaky cam. It was more stirring to me when it started out: where it started out and how. But then it became more of a predictable, third-rate "Band Of Brothers" thing, with lame televisual techniques. It went into a furrow. I still say that Obi-Wan's character development hasn't really been all that present in the last few episodes. Especially with the short run-times and more characters being introduced. I suppose, for me, what I'm trying to say is: The ST got stronger as it went along. The opposite seems to have happened with Obi-Wan. Its reductive, televisual nature is less disguised in the last few episodes than in the first two. Star Wars really needs the cinematic format to truly spread its wings. |
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Jun 17, 2022 6:59:45 GMT
I've been quite critical of the series at times, but I love, love, LOVE that flashback they gave us. I think just that alone made the series worthwhile. I have found that watching Star Wars with another person gives a whole new perspective, especially if that person wasn't big on sci-fi/fantasy to begin with, and it happened again. I thought that Ewan was much better in the flashback than in the rest of the series, and the person I was watching it with unlocked what made it better: She noted that Hayden and Ewan actually SMILE at each other. Obi-Wan flashes his trademark smile for once in the series! She was also disappointed with the fight choreography in the Obi-Wan/Vader fight in episode three, but thought the fighting in the flashback looked great, which I totally agreed with. Everything about the flashback was well made, and it's what I expected the rest of the series to feel like too. It feels like they felt a greater responsibility to get that flashback right because it was adjacent to AotC, while the main bulk of the series takes place in an era unexplored by the Lucas films. It just had some of that grandiosity and beauty of the prequels, the fun and heightened atmosphere, the cordiality between master and apprentice, etc. The rest of the series feels really drab in comparison. And I think the flashback showed how distinctive and well-designed the characters in the Lucas films are. Obi-Wan and Anakin showcased their clearly defined characteristics just in that small scene. Obi-Wan is wise, fatherly and witty, and Anakin is ambitious, quick to anger and impulsive. They are iconic archetypes, and they play well off each other. Contrast that with dejected Obi-Wan dealing with the boring rebels, and the difference is night and day. The only good character interaction Obi-Wan has had in the series is that with Haja in episode two, and I think they overdid the humorousness of Haja in this fifth episode. That's right, Cryogenic, I do think TLJ handled the "dejected Jedi Master" story better than this series. Obi-Wan is feeling more and more like a watered down and lower budget version of TLJ. But at least I have one scene to treasure from all of this. |
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Post by jppiper on Jun 17, 2022 7:25:37 GMT
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Post by Cryogenic on Jun 17, 2022 7:43:54 GMT
I've been quite critical of the series at times, but I love, love, LOVE that flashback they gave us. I think just that alone made the series worthwhile. I have found that watching Star Wars with another person gives a whole new perspective, especially if that person wasn't big on sci-fi/fantasy to begin with, and it happened again. I thought that Ewan was much better in the flashback than in the rest of the series, and the person I was watching it with unlocked what made it better: She noted that Hayden and Ewan actually SMILE at each other. Obi-Wan flashes his trademark smile for once in the series! It was a little weird, though. Like they are smiling for the camera and happy to be performing together for the fans. Very knowing. Still, that adds to the "meta" feel of the scene, and I can totally understand why they did it the way they did. In reality, as shown in the prequels, Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship was more fractious, especially in AOTC. There was more of a surreal, dream-like quality to their sparring scene, and the scene is noticeably very bright and flooded with light, compared to every other scene in the episode, including the flashbacks with Reva. All of this is rather interesting, like they are performing in some kind of Jedi heaven, yet something is "off" with Anakin at the end. Obi-Wan acts like Anakin still has much to learn, but admonishes his apprentice with warm, rogueish charm. Anakin, on the other hand, has a similarly elevated demeanour to begin with, but once he realises Obi-Wan has bested him and reiterates what it really means to be a Jedi Master, he looks bothered and afflicted. From the courtly, swashbuckling world of the prequels to PTSD Disney Land. Before the Dark Times, before the Empire. Maybe they were going for that contrast, heightening the cordiality and fun atmosphere between Anakin and Obi-Wan, to suggest the illusory qualities of their brotherhood dynamic? What is noticeably missing from the explanation of Anakin's dark, impatient tendencies is the influence of Palpatine. The scene is kind of deliberately taking place in a bubble. Was this meant to be a faithful recreation of a genuine day in the life of Obi-Wan and Anakin? I would again argue for more of a dream-like interpretation. Good points. You're right that there isn't much differentiation in the series from one character to another. No big memorable dynamics, except for maybe Leia and Obi-Wan when they first meet, or the clashing between Reva and the Grand Inquisitor. There's not a lot to lift the show out of its doldrums. I can see why fans might have responded more positively to this episode. Anakin and Obi-Wan were very emphasised here. The flashback really helped lend depth to Vader pursuing Obi-Wan and Obi-Wan realising how to outsmart him. Take that away and there's only Reva's storyline left. Almost all the development in Obi-Wan -- allegedly the series' main character -- unfortunately seems to be over. |
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Post by Ingram on Jun 17, 2022 8:50:53 GMT
lol that would be amazing.
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Jun 17, 2022 13:35:20 GMT
I've been quite critical of the series at times, but I love, love, LOVE that flashback they gave us. I think just that alone made the series worthwhile. I have found that watching Star Wars with another person gives a whole new perspective, especially if that person wasn't big on sci-fi/fantasy to begin with, and it happened again. I thought that Ewan was much better in the flashback than in the rest of the series, and the person I was watching it with unlocked what made it better: She noted that Hayden and Ewan actually SMILE at each other. Obi-Wan flashes his trademark smile for once in the series! It was a little weird, though. Like they are smiling for the camera and happy to be performing together for the fans. Very knowing. Still, that adds to the "meta" feel of the scene, and I can totally understand why they did it the way they did. In reality, as shown in the prequels, Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship was more fractious, especially in AOTC. There was more of a surreal, dream-like quality to their sparring scene, and the scene is noticeably very bright and flooded with light, compared to every other scene in the episode, including the flashbacks with Reva. All of this is rather interesting, like they are performing in some kind of Jedi heaven, yet something is "off" with Anakin at the end. Obi-Wan acts like Anakin still has much to learn, but admonishes his apprentice with warm, rogueish charm. Anakin, on the other hand, has a similarly elevated demeanour to begin with, but once he realises Obi-Wan has bested him and reiterates what it really means to be a Jedi Master, he looks bothered and afflicted. From the courtly, swashbuckling world of the prequels to PTSD Disney Land. Before the Dark Times, before the Empire. Maybe they were going for that contrast, heightening the cordiality and fun atmosphere between Anakin and Obi-Wan, to suggest the illusory qualities of their brotherhood dynamic? What is noticeably missing from the explanation of Anakin's dark, impatient tendencies is the influence of Palpatine. The scene is kind of deliberately taking place in a bubble. Was this meant to be a faithful recreation of a genuine day in the life of Obi-Wan and Anakin? I would again argue for more of a dream-like interpretation. Good points. You're right that there isn't much differentiation in the series from one character to another. No big memorable dynamics, except for maybe Leia and Obi-Wan when they first meet, or the clashing between Reva and the Grand Inquisitor. There's not a lot to lift the show out of its doldrums. I can see why fans might have responded more positively to this episode. Anakin and Obi-Wan were very emphasised here. The flashback really helped lend depth to Vader pursuing Obi-Wan and Obi-Wan realising how to outsmart him. Take that away and there's only Reva's storyline left. Almost all the development in Obi-Wan -- allegedly the series' main character -- unfortunately seems to be over. Yeah, maybe they were winking at the audience a little bit, but I thought the flashback was exceptionally well realized compared to the general quality of the series. I felt that there was actual love and care put into making it link up with AotC. If Anakin and his relationship to Obi-Wan felt slightly different to AotC, I think that can be chalked up to the fact that in AotC Anakin was not sleeping well due to the dreams about his mother and was more irritable because of it. Maybe the flashback takes place before those dreams started. Which makes me wish that the incredible reception the scene has been getting would move Lucasfilm to make a series set before AotC starring Anakin and Obi-Wan. That space of time between TPM and AotC is almost completely unexplored territory, and we could get more of Anakin before his life started to go downhill. I do agree that the flashback has an idealized quality about it, and can be considered a timeless "limbo" scene, especially since Anakin does look a little older than he should. Hah, PTSD Disney Land.  That's a good way to describe most of Disney's Star Wars products so far. They have been downers in one way or another. I think TRoS and Solo came closest to that high-flying serial adventure style of the Lucas films. Otherwise their films have largely dealt with aging characters that aren't what they used to be. I did not have the reaction that many had to the changed Luke in TLJ, but I seem to be experiencing that feeling with Obi-Wan in this series. I think with TLJ it somehow worked for me. Like you say, there was a gravitas to that performance and take on the character. I'm not feeling that in Obi-Wan here. There were some moments of brilliance with Obi-Wan and Leia, especially the part when they were hitching a ride with the moleman. Oh, and I almost forgot his interactions with Owen and Bail. I liked those because I like the characters, who now appear criminally underutilized in the series. But the Inquisitors, Vader and the rebels are just boring. I hope the final battle between Obi-Wan and Vader has some features of the Luke vs. Kylo encounter, because their first interaction was pretty underwhelming. They released this a little while ago: It's heartwarming to read all the positive comments about Hayden and how people are excited for Obi and Ani to be together again. There's none of the vitriol that some of the earlier episodes got. Hayden and Ewan are what people wanted out of this series. |
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Post by nickromancer on Jun 17, 2022 14:21:25 GMT
CryogramI think Cryo's been inhaling too much of the bath salts imbedded within my own negative critiques of the show. He was such a happier person at the beginning of the series. Such a polite neighbor, he never bothered anyone... LOL. Partially... I mean, what I don't get (and with the proviso that I'm trying to avoid being negative here) is how... solid, restrained, steady... those first two episodes were. I just put some of the second episode on again. It sounds stupid to keep harping on it, but I think shaky cam is the epitome of lo-fi, lazy, idiotic filmmaking (or tv-series-making). However, the second episode is remarkably free of it; instead relying repeatedly on careful, locked-off camera positioning, or the camera gracefully tracking round or dollying forwards or backwards. The lighting is careful, too. The visual effects are smooth and crisp. And the action is well-managed. All these things seem to fall away in the second half of the third episode and it feels like it has been downhill since. It's almost like the series is made by two different people. My admiration and enjoyment of the first two episodes is not an illusion; or, at least, I don't think it is. It's because there are solid aesthetics and good technical execution in the first two. But then, once the whole buttfuck Tala/Jedi Path subplot emerges, the series goes a much cheaper and more faux-dramatic direction. There's really some kind of gear-change here and I don't know why. It turns into more of a typical, low-rent television series. Episodes three, four, and five have dynamic moments, to be sure, but it feels like there are more shortcuts made in the writing, in the direction, in the cinematography, in the editing, and in the visual effects. Did Disney just put out the two strongest episodes as a double-feature on purpose for the show's premiere because they knew the other ones were "lesser"? Take Haja. He has a reason to exist in the second episode: a purpose to his character, a role in the narrative, and tics that lend the episode some pep. However, he inexplicably appears in the fifth episode at the rebel base... to what end? What he is doing there? How did he get there? The episode doesn't care to explain and just throws him in. He complains to Obi-Wan that he isn't a babysitter, but that's all he gets to do. Oh, and he carries Obi-Wan's stuff like a good little water-carrier under the Raj. Terrific character development. In a contrived development, he drops Obi-Wan's communicator, and neither he nor Obi-Wan seem to give a damn. I guess that's what he's there for. I really can't think of another reason. I'm confused by that communicator, too. In the first episode, it was a two-way communication between Bail/Breha and Obi-Wan when Obi-Wan answered. In the fifth episode, it starts bleeping again, Obi-Wan answers, and the message is either pre-recorded (i.e., perhaps transmitted a while ago) or Bail is for some reason just "sending" rather than receiving. Also, it's unsubtle as hell. Bail directly mentions Tatooine, Owen, and Luke. So much for secrecy. No code words, no discretion. Nothing. Is Obi-Wan the only one that can answer it? Apparently not, because Reva picks it up at the end of the episode and plays the fragmentary message back herself with ease. That also means the message was somehow "saved" by the device. How? Why? It's so ridiculously contrived; even if it works fine in a basic dramatic context. Oh, and not to get too nitpicky or anything (I guess I accepted all this just fine in the first episode), but that communicator wasn't a communicator in the PT. It was Qui-Gon's holographic transmitter. He uses another device to talk to Obi-Wan and send Anakin's blood sample. Not that we can't use our imaginations and pretend it wasn't modified or whatever; but, like... really? At some point, the dicking with lore, contrivance piled on contrivance, and shallow techniques like shaky cam just get to you. The series started (for me) with a lot of potential. But then it began feeling lazy and half-assed. The first two episodes brought a false sense of security. I thought fans were being ridiculous to savage the episodes as much as they did online (well, on YouTube and Rotten Tomatoes, anyway). But now, in some respects, I can agree with them -- or I can at least respect where they're coming from. I'm probably just foisting too high a standard on the people behind this show. It's certainly not all bad. But what started respectably for me has become a bit middling. There was a lot put forth in the first two episodes that hasn't quite flowered or gone in such a graceful direction. The show is ambling, I feel, toward an okay but shaky conclusion. Yes, Obi-Wan has the excuse of being a silly little TV show. It's working with some quality raw material, though. The ST came out alright in the end. Not spectacular, but the three extant movies all feel reasonably cinematic; and, in places, semi-interesting. I prefer Palpatine being back because it's a good linking device that ties the trilogies together. I guess it's like Qui-Gon's holographic projector getting turned into a galactic communicator. Really exaggerated and out-of-place, but hey, at least it's a prequel gizmo doing a prequel gizmo thing. TROS is colourful and energetic enough to make its premise feel reasonably exciting. There's a rush and a lovely sci-fi-adventure texture to that movie lacking in the other installments. That's always been my contention. It's very heightened. I still like it the most of the three sequel movies. The Obi-Wan series could have been more colourful -- more gauche. Instead, it's neither particularly restrained nor particularly imaginative. Not now. It has its moments. After seeing Daiyu in the second episode, I hoped we might get a couple more colourful planets, and perhaps Obi-Wan getting involved in more adventures. Instead, he got saddled with Leia and then the whole Imperial Base/Rebel Base thing took over. Along with shaky cam. It was more stirring to me when it started out: where it started out and how. But then it became more of a predictable, third-rate "Band Of Brothers" thing, with lame televisual techniques. It went into a furrow. I still say that Obi-Wan's character development hasn't really been all that present in the last few episodes. Especially with the short run-times and more characters being introduced. I suppose, for me, what I'm trying to say is: The ST got stronger as it went along. The opposite seems to have happened with Obi-Wan. Its reductive, televisual nature is less disguised in the last few episodes than in the first two. Star Wars really needs the cinematic format to truly spread its wings. The ST may have got visually stronger (though I’d contest that, The Rise of Skywalker has some horribly designed star ships that are clearly poorly upscaled imperial star destroyers from Rogue One, which is unforgivably lazy if they can’t even make the space ships have verisimilitude they’ve abandoned the careful work Star Wars does to ground it’s universe and make the viewer believe what they see) but I don’t think you can say it’s story grew stronger, (maybe it didn’t grow weaker cause it starts bad). I think all of their projects start with good intentions and fail somewhere in the process of writing. The idea that Star Wars should expand forever is fundamentally flawed, I’d be more content if the series were done and lucasfilm was making new stories. At least then their embarrassments won’t be considered canonical Star Wars works and wont be included with the real movies by naive future audiences. That’s something that has bothered me for a long time, when Disney is churning out more footage in ten years than Star Wars had in 30 when does this revisionist Star Wars become confused with the original My only solace is the knowledge that Disney’s plan to indefinitely exist and make money forever is absurd |
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Post by Cryogenic on Jun 17, 2022 17:21:15 GMT
Yeah, maybe they were winking at the audience a little bit, but I thought the flashback was exceptionally well realized compared to the general quality of the series. I felt that there was actual love and care put into making it link up with AotC. Yeah, probably. I presume they had more time to think it through and wanted to evoke nostalgia in the viewer. Plus, because it's an isolated scene from a different time period, there isn't the same obligation on it to logically fit into an ongoing narrative. It's a strategically deployed flashback. If anything, the main episode was too weak to justify the flashback. Obi-Wan says that Vader hasn't the patience for a siege, but that rebel base didn't really need a drawn-out siege to breach it. I actually can't believe it took them that long to open the bloody door to allow the ship to escape. When Obi-Wan first gazes skyward at it, I assumed he would try using the Force, as he did when he held back the cracking glass in the previous episode. But no, he just stares hopelessly at it; and then the assignment is given to Leia, who basically took all episode to change a wire from one hole to another (and never noticed her malfunctioning droid hiding three feet away from her for some reason). Yeah, perhaps Anakin's dreams are making him a bit more difficult in AOTC. The flashback is very effective on its own terms. I do wonder, however, about its "reality". There seems to be this persistent desire from fans that Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship in the prequels be less contentious than what was shown (maybe the first act of Episode III excepted). Isn't that, in part, what motivated Lucas to make TCW? Fans wanted that buddy-cop aspect and dreamed of seeing them off on adventures. The flashback is tapping into that same urge. I don't know if a whole show between them in live-action would be very good. Maybe; if done right. But with Disney, that's the rub. Luke's dour nature and his absence from the fight, from his friends and family, hangs over the whole of TLJ like a dark cloud -- in a good way. It feels like something is truly at stake in his being away and Rey trying to convince him to return. Moreover, when he does return, he does it in a spectacular, high-minded way. Instead of defeating the First Order through violence, he uses pacifistic means to allow the remaining Resistance members to escape. He truly becomes a Jedi Master in the footsteps of Obi-Wan and Yoda. By contrast, this show's version of Obi-Wan is forever shooting people, piledriving them into the ground, and snapping their necks. There's not quite the same resonance, is there? I think Reva's a decent character, but it feels like Owen and Bail definitely carry a greater sense of history around. The Obi-Wan and Leia interactions have largely become moot. By ignoring these connections in favour of stressing Obi-Wan and Vader and Reva and Vader, maybe this episode got through by the skin of its teeth. However, without some return to the former set of character interactions in the final episode, this series is unlikely to wrap up in an especially satisfying or validating way. Jesus, what a pointless video. One minute and forty-one seconds of nothing. I'll sum it up: HAYDEN: I remember. EWAN: I remember, too. (Fill with ninety seconds of prequel recap footage set to generic Disney trailer music). The comments are nice and glowing, yes. That video proves, unfortunately, it's nothing to do with the quality of the show. Fans just gobble up those memberberries when Disney feeds them the right ones. |
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Post by Cryogenic on Jun 17, 2022 17:40:43 GMT
The ST may have got visually stronger (though I’d contest that, The Rise of Skywalker has some horribly designed star ships that are clearly poorly upscaled imperial star destroyers from Rogue One, which is unforgivably lazy if they can’t even make the space ships have verisimilitude they’ve abandoned the careful work Star Wars does to ground it’s universe and make the viewer believe what they see) but I don’t think you can say it’s story grew stronger, (maybe it didn’t grow weaker cause it starts bad). I think all of their projects start with good intentions and fail somewhere in the process of writing. TROS has the best visual effects, sound design, cinematography, and editing of all the sequel films, in my opinion. But TLJ is pretty good as well; and, in some ways, more distinct-looking. For some reason, there's more confidence on display in the third installment of each trilogy. A lot of the story is there and the filmmakers seem to have had fun expressing it. The story of the ST didn't necessarily grow stronger across the three films, but at least something passing for a story emerges in the final film. I just plain like the delivery of the last one: characters, acting, writing, environments, visual effects, pacing, etc. And all the prequel nods go a long way to making it feel more connected to the rest of the Saga. JJ was right, I think, that there's a sense of "inevitability" to TROS. LOL. Looking forward to the Empire collapsing under the weight of its own greed and stupidity, are we? It could certainly happen. I do think Star Wars worked better when it was something of a rare commodity: a precious gemstone in the tapestry of cinema/entertainment. It has now turned into just another "IP" that is being fleshed out with "content". There's something that fills me with rage about this whole era we're living in. I'm Kylo Ren trying to destroy the mushroom men. |
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That's a good way to describe most of Disney's Star Wars products so far. They have been downers in one way or another. I think TRoS and Solo came closest to that high-flying serial adventure style of the Lucas films. Otherwise their films have largely dealt with aging characters that aren't what they used to be. I did not have the reaction that many had to the changed Luke in TLJ, but I seem to be experiencing that feeling with Obi-Wan in this series. I think with TLJ it somehow worked for me. Like you say, there was a gravitas to that performance and take on the character. I'm not feeling that in Obi-Wan here.