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Post by Cryogenic on May 31, 2022 7:51:31 GMT
Kid Leia grew on me fast. First I thought "No, they wouldn't do that", but now I see it as a nice echo of kid Anakin, like you say. It's kind of interesting that we all probably expected Obi-Wan to take young Luke under his wing like Qui-Gon did with Anakin, but they switched it with Leia and really pulled the rug from under us. I thought Bail's "She's as important as he is" was a little on the nose and didn't really need to be said, since everyone knows Leia is the other hope, but I dig the direction they've gone. I'll pick back up on this a little later. I want to include ArchdukeOfNaboo 's excellent response ( Reply #512). Pressing on: Yes. The series seems to have been placed in good hands. We should include writer Joby Harold in this, too. Joby previously worked with Hayden Christensen on the film "Awake" (2007), the basic premise of which metaphorically invokes the end of ROTS and Anakin becoming Darth Vader. Some very strong elements have serendipitously come together here. But Chow sounds like a strong, determined personality, and very much the driving force in her own right. Yes, it somehow conveys a special sense of sadness, dignity, honour, decency, and endurance, all with this mystical touch binding it all together. It captures the poignant irony of Anakin complaining he hates sand, while Obi-Wan spends his middle age living in the desert on Anakin's home planet. Obi-Wan as both the myth and the man. A legend made whole through faith and forbearance. A very good film analyst, who once had an intriguing monograph of the original film, and a similar, but slightly shorter analysis for TPM on his website (no longer, unfortunately), once remarked that TESB could be retitled "The Search For The Millennium Falcon". TPM repeats the motif of a grounded ship with a broken hyperdrive, which the bad guys are looking for. One is invited to contemplate the specialness of Luke and Anakin in these installments, as if the hyperdrive stops functioning because we're being commanded to slow down and pay attention. I worry, slightly, that the Obi-Wan series may come across as slightly choppy and a tad flippant if it doesn't remember to find time for slower passages, as in the first episode with Obi-Wan on Tatooine. However, I'm also more than okay with a bit of planet-hopping and a bit of pep, as that's what I enjoy in TROS. It's nice to think that Star Wars can be a colourful adventure story again. I also wanted a "meditation battle". I am, however, open to them revising their history a bit and having them meet in-person, which -- I agree -- it seems they will now do. We know almost for certain we're getting some kind of lightsaber duel between the pair. The opportunity of tapping Ewan and Hayden's physicality again is simply too good to pass up. They're both still in excellent condition and they've spoken about remembering some of their old moves from ROTS, I believe. I wonder whether this duel will be teased in advance or happen rather suddenly, the way Reva stabs and kills The Grand Inquisitor? Surely, there will be some build-up first? It's really interesting not knowing! I love the part of the quote you isolated. Yeah, there might be something similar here, or it might have busier stretches and quieter ones, like in the first episode. Overall, though, it does seem to have a pacy, urgent vibe -- at least as far as the number of characters goes. So far, a lot has been packed in. Ewan won't be able to convince me that anything is more real than Tatooine in Episodes I and II, or the Lake Retreat, or parts of Coruscant in ROTS that seem very convincing thanks to big sets (e.g., the veranda set) and extremely good CGI and lighting. The somewhat smaller scale of the Obi-Wan series gives the game away. The lighting is flatter and you don't get that radiant glow of real sunlight interacting on real surfaces (I realise I sound a bit like J.J. Abrams right now). This technology may be impressive for television, but it doesn't cut the mustard against the epic scope of the prequels and all that wonderful use of outdoor locations, complex miniatures, detailed sets, and sheer embrace of colour. Still, he's giving a good performance in the show, so if it helped him there and gave him more satisfaction and confidence, I guess that's okay, too.
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Post by Cryogenic on May 31, 2022 8:39:18 GMT
I think we're only getting warmed up in this series. The real meat and potatoes is yet to come, it's going to go up several more gears. I feel that way, too. If it's truly modelling itself after the prequels, the drama should ramp up exponentially toward the end. Chow has said the series has a beginning, a middle, and an end. It's a complete expression. So, what we've seen so far, in other words, is really just Act I: the setup. Acts II and III should be more intense. Ah, yeah: I see you're relating it to the full six-episode George Lucas Saga. Another first-class reference point. Leia will probably be returned to Alderaan and that might be the last we see of her. That would be kind of a shame now, but there's no way they can completely leave the Obi-Wan/Owen/Luke side of things where they presently are.
Good thoughts. I can't believe there are some people bitching about Leia getting the spotlight over Luke. Would love to see more of Bail and Leia, Beru and Leia, and Obi-Wan and Leia. Padme hovers in the background in all these interactions. A scene like the one you describe would be very touching.
I want action. But I also want human drama. Am I simply greedy? For me, it's about the series finding a balance, and an identity. But yeah, if the human drama is pulled off well, you don't necessarily need a great deal of action. And there hasn't been a ton. Just enough to keep things lively and make the point. If the first two episodes differ from each other, maybe the next four will, too.
I don't know. I need to check out more of Chow's interview material. I do agree that she must have many thoughts on the matter if she respects the prequels as much as she seems to.
Of course. Unfortunately, fans revel in false dilemmas. So far, the series has depicted Bail and Breha intelligently (if somewhat briefly), and has done nothing to make you dislike them. If anything, ANH was more guilty of that with its gruff portrayal of Owen (who still has some nuance). Breha is a little sterner, Bail is the soft touch. They both treat Leia decently. The love they have for their special daughter is obvious.
Right. Children can be very precocious. Leia also has a wealthy upbringing. Her mind has been nourished because of the opportunities afforded by wealth and a royal court, but she's also fiercely independent and bristles at being spoken down to or manipulated into doing things that suit another party better and feel wrong to her. And she's gifted in the Force. Given all of that, she's a very well-realised character. Not seeing any issues here. The Younglings kept Yoda on his toes and there's a slight setup for Obi-Wan struggling to control Leia when Yoda turns Obi-Wan into a laughingstock to the amusement of his brood: "Lost a planet, Master Obi-Wan has. How embarrassing, how embarrassing."
Wow! This is an incredibly impassioned, sterling defence. I think the two of you are both onto something. I love how the series already has these layers to it that we're finding. Bail might be trying to sway Obi-Wan because Obi-Wan is a former Jedi Master and he was there when they agreed to split up the twins on Bail's ship. He is therefore reminding him that Leia embodies "a new hope" for the galaxy every bit as much as Luke does. It's hard not to read it that way because Bail is appealing directly to Obi-Wan in a desperate moment to get him to leave Tatooine to rescue his daughter. But there it is: his daughter. She is just as important to Bail as a father as Luke is to Obi-Wan as his watchful guardian. And in any case, protecting senators (or future senators) is what the Jedi of old did. So protect my daughter, dammit.
Yeah, that's the true measure of the power of a character, right there. When they inspire people to muse on their absence, and that so much of what is happening is happening because of them: because of some lofty vision they had, some great action they took, or some way they went against the social norms to live a different life or create a change in the rigid order of things. Padme wins on virtually every level. It's not Star Wars that necessarily feels "A long time ago". It's just the prequels when you're watching the other parts. Their gravity is immense.
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jtn90
Ambassador
Posts: 66
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Post by jtn90 on May 31, 2022 10:19:22 GMT
On the Obi Wan and Leia meeting before ANH thing, Some people pointed out that he tells her his name is Ben, and there was a "plot hole" on ANH itself when Luke first meets Leia, he says he was here with Ben Kenobi, instead of Obi Wan, and the excitement she had after hearing it even thought she is supossed to only know Obi Wan Kenobi, I always interpreted that if she clearlty knew Obi Wan was hiding on Tatoooine she would know his fake name too, or the surname being an indicative that they were the same person and put two and two together, but now with this show it adds a new layer to Leia hearing Ben Kenobi in ANH.
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on May 31, 2022 15:37:26 GMT
I've been meaning to delve into the various main media and social media responses to the show. I've done that a little bit already, reading a handful of pages/reviews so far, and the response seems mixed to positive? However, when I jumped into the comments for the original trailer just now, which has swelled to 18,037,469 views and 36,216 comments (compared to 7,312,215 views and 25,525 comments within the first 24 hours of its release -- as stated in Reply #176 of mine back on March 10th), I saw that there are plenty of negative ones coming in, if set to date order ("newest first"). Here's a few that have been posted since the show debuted on Disney+ (I'm ignoring older ones): The negativity on YouTube had already been bubbling up for two months, with these wise guys threatening to unleash spoilers on the top of us all. Actually, they did to a degree. They'd long made up their mind on the series before seeing it, and as you know, that's a trait I despise in any Star Wars fan.
I don't think random YouTube comments are the sole gauge we should use to measure fan reaction. YouTube Channels are more authentic, as the person can't hide behind a pseudonym or an avatar, they have to put themselves on the camera. Better again, is to seek out fan opinion across a range of different popular platforms, whether it is Twitter, Reddit, Facebook, or old-fashioned forums like this one. I think as prequlists, whether we liked the Sequels or not, we should never feel comfortable with YouTube, much as Anakin never got comfortable with the Sand people. We suffered a lot of trauma from them in the past, least we forget.
Now to take on these complaints/droids...
So you beg for new Star Wars, and now you want it to end? Which is it?
Drwuwho, 17 hours agoDisney used to be a big part of my childhood. Fund memories of Aladin, The Lion King and so on. Now Disney is destroying the memories I had of my childhood, whilst calling me a racist, sexist or what ever, because I don't like the "new and better" star wars. Lucasfilm deserve harsh criticism whenever they behave little this, belittling the fanbase, or blaming the customer, to use a term that might shake up their executives. This contrasts significantly with the Lucasfilm we had under George. Sure, Lucasfilm would have long had a hippy-maverick environment, and thus more liberal leaning, but it was never the on-the-nose, woke capitalist edifice that the Walt Disney Company so clearly now represents. Lucas never turned on the fans, despite the even greater abuse he suffered.
At the same time, the people who personally DM the actress behind Reva with hateful comments, most certainly do have a racism problem. All Star Wars fans must come out and object to this vile behaviour, it is never justified. I was sickening of it against Ahmed Best, I'm not standing for it here.
As I've said countless times before, Star Wars is a huge, diverse galaxy. If we're going to have so many alien species and talking droids, what's wrong with having human characters of different shades? In-universe it's an unremarkable fact, as humans are all the one species, so why should we the audience get hung up over this? We should champion the involvement of actors from all across Planet Earth.
Where I think fans do have a legitimate point, however, is when an established character with very well defined traits or background is suddenly given a new gender or ethnicity etc. We can see this same disgruntlement even in the recasting of Han Solo in the Solo movie. Or even Luke in TLJ. Fans have a right to speak out. That said, we should always give an opportunities to new female and ethnic minority chatterers. It's a big galaxy with so much new to explore.
Let's not forget Disney's racist behaviour towards John Boyega in the TFA poster for China either. This isn't just the fans behaving badly.
JD, 1 day agoThey should've called it 'Sassy 10yr old Leia' instead :/ Oh, come on! Did you ever see the original film? Also, if you have a problem with gifted young children, then you probably don't like the prequels either. Child actors are an integral part of Prequel Trilogy DNA, and Chow is paying homage to that in this series. We have all the bumps and bruises from defending Jake Llyod. Believe me, we can survive your nonsense too.
Deniz D, 1 day agoEven any 20-minute episode of Clone Wars is more Obi-Wan than the first two episodes of this series. (The cliché of the weakened hero, the cliché of one last mission, the cliché of bounty hunters...) Even if they had remade the episodes with Satine from Clone Wars, the episodes with Maul, the episodes with Asajj Ventress as live action, the whole world would be talking about this series right now. . I can't help wondering what this series would have been like if Dave Filoni had made it. Cliché's are the nostalgic items that keep fans coming back to Star Wars, what are you talking about? As for a "weakened hero", did you even see what happened in Episode III, in what ended up of the Jedi Order? Why wouldn't Obi-Wan be in a weakened position. Many of the literary and dramatic devices Shakespeare utilised were long known about, and long explored. There really is nothing new under the Sun when it comes to drama. Old ideas are timeless ideas, and whether they work depends on their execution.
Frederick Fjaerbu, 1 day agoCan’t believe I reactivated my subscription for this 🙄 Sorry to hear.
Lightening McQueen, 2 days agoHow fascinating, Obi-Wan watching Luke as a child. What did you expect? A war movie? (direct response to the last one): Just David, 13 hours agoPretty much. Because that is the most exciting thing he does in this new series for 2 hours.... Jc, 2 days agoJust seen the second episode… it’s pretty bad. Ewan mcregor is good but it’s a pretty dull, cringy, sloppy writing, ‘let’s make this appeal to kids’ type of series. Was hoping it’d be more on par with the mandolorian tbh 😒🤷🏻♂️ You probably never liked the prequels then, did you? If you'd been listening to any of the director's comments before release, you'd have heard her talk a lot about how most influenced they were by the Prequel Trilogy.
СтарБлэйд, 2 days agoDeborah Chow, i think is not perfect Director for Star Wars. First 2 series are big disappointment for all fans around the globe. Jesus Christ. Cinematography is good. Ewan McGregor is brilliant. But Deborah Chow, omg , very disappointing Why isn't she doing a good job? Care to elaborate? Ikah Loayza, 2 days agoI just came back to change my like to a dislike. Another bait. I just wonder why Kathleen Kennedy and Disney hate men so much What makes you think that? The show has done nothing to belittle Obi-Wan's character. USE ME AS A DISLIKE BUTTON, 2 days agoGina Carano did nothing wrong Ah, yes, Star Wars is nothing but a proxy culture war to you now. You couldn't care less about the quality of the series. Cryptic Coffee, 3 days agoOmg, that female inquisitor is the worst actress I have ever seen! Didn't we all politely warn people in advance of not turning on the actors? We haven't even seen the full thing. Relax. vetal leonov, 3 days ago (edited)Disney PLEASE FIRE Caitlin Kennedy!! She's trashing Star Wars!!! Obi Wan deserves a better adaptation of the series!!! And now it hurts to look at it!! P.S. Ewan McGregor is still amazing Can you at least spell her first name, correct? It begins with a K. WE Kurtz, 3 days agoReva makes this a tough watch whenever she's on-screen. Her real-life whiny victim of an actress makes it worse. I'm glad there are so many women in Hollywood to teach us that diversity is super bad. This sounds to me like a bot on a provocation mission. These things do exist people, the Russians have troll farms that attempt to impersonate the worst of both sides, in order to inflame a situation, cause chaos in a foreign country's society. The limited phraseology make its very suspicious.
Brokejoker, 3 days agoLol, so when will we actually get a show about Kenobi? Right now Disney is setting up and conducting another bait and switch, and to be honest I’ve had it. Every time they push a show out, the show is never about the person they say it is. Hawkeye is about his daughter, Loki is about the female Loki, moon knight is about his wife, and now this show is about some garbage antagonist that no one cares about. I’m done with all Disney products until the shows and movies they produce are about the actual characters. Oh, piss off with your Marvel crap. Stop shoving that into our unique George Lucas mythology. You have the personality of Anakin in AOTC.
M U, 3 days ago (edited)That was.not the Obi-wan that I liked.
That was just miserable, hopeless, helps no one, even girl, and weak, brutal. There was no attractiveness in him. Just sad.
He should’ve been written better. He is the master Obiwan you know!? Oh, for God's sake. Have you paid any attention to the traumatised, PTSD suffering Obi-Wan fans were looking for for many years? There's a YouTube video with millions of hits on this matter. Some people could make the argument they didn't go far enough on that front in the first episode, so your complaint is ludicrous. What did you expect? A perfectly calm Obi-Wan? Did you not notice how Obi-Wan was affected at the end of ROTS?
plop pill, 3 days agoAny criticism of any Disney project now immediately makes you a racist
No, it does not. And if Disney are jumping to that conclusion, then we have another problem.
TRILLION CROWNS, 3 days agoNOT A GLIMPSE OF THE ANNOYING LITTLE GIRL IN NONE OF THE TRAILERS!!!!! THEY GOT US AGAIN BOYS..... WHAT A TRASH SHOW... BEST PART WAS THE ONE MINUTE INTRO SHOWING THE PREQUELS!!!!! Prequels?! Did you even watch them? Do you not remember that we have a gifted young boy and girl in the first one? You are sounding hypocritical.
As I said in my earlier post, and I think this can't be repeated enough:
some of the comments might come from bots or troll accounts (it really is a growing problem on the Internet, now, unfortunately). Yeah, people are idiots, this isn't news, but at least let the crowd have its say. The droids are taking over! We must move quickly...
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Post by nickromancer on May 31, 2022 15:47:19 GMT
Undoubtedly a lot of the negativity was decided in advance by bitter fan boys and grifters who make money off the fan boys. Among the actual fandom the show appears to be well received, at least better received than the Book of Boba Fett. However the continuing problem that I think is leading to more and more negativity from real critics is the scripts, every show has had lines that are too on the nose, cliche, or just seem like a first pass that should have been reworded by a dialogue coach. They also never develop the characters enough. Fennec Shand had no arc at all in TBoBF. I want professional, adult, complex stuff. a Star Wars tv show with the dramatic heft and interesting cinematography of Better Call Saul would lift a lot of the negativity
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on May 31, 2022 16:02:00 GMT
a Star Wars tv show with the dramatic heft and interesting cinematography of Better Call Saul would lift a lot of the negativity
I agree with you on everything apart from this part. As I think Cryogenic has illustrated more eloquently that all of us, in several other threads, goofiness is a key component of the DNA of Star Wars. Lucas never intended to make adult-orientated dramas. They always have a child-like wonder to them.
The problem is actually in ourselves, the viewers, and it's a point I raised a week or so ago: do we change relative to the films, or do the films change relative to us? It's the former, and because of our exposure to other more mature forms of drama as we get older, we tend to want Star Wars to adjust to that new paradigm - we want it to age, as we age. This is what the OT fanboys demanded in 1999, and they were consequently bitterly disappointed.
Christensen recently spoke about the dialogue in the films as deliberately eschewing the type of dialogue we have in the real world.
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Post by nickromancer on May 31, 2022 16:10:06 GMT
a Star Wars tv show with the dramatic heft and interesting cinematography of Better Call Saul would lift a lot of the negativity
I agree with you on everything apart from this part. As I think Cryogenic has illustrated more eloquently that all of us, in several other threads, goofiness is a key component of the DNA of Star Wars. Lucas never intended to make adult-orientated dramas. They always have a child-like wonder to them.
The problem is actually in ourselves, the viewers, and it's a point I raised a week or so ago: do we change relative to the films, or do the films change relative to us? It's the former, and because of our exposure to other more mature forms of drama as we get older, we tend to want Star Wars to adjust to that new paradigm - we want it to age, as we age. This is what the OT fanboys demanded in 1999, and they were consequently bitterly disappointed.
Christensen recently spoke about the dialogue in the films as deliberately eschewing the type of dialogue we have in the real world.
I love the dialogue in the original six films, and absolutely agree that it shouldn’t be realistic. But I thought the writing was adult especially in the prequels, and I don’t get that from the new tv shows. When I say Star Wars tv should be like an adult drama, I want it to be more like George Lucas would do it, his idea for Underworld was that
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on May 31, 2022 16:21:14 GMT
Man, these fan artists are just the best
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Post by deliveranze on May 31, 2022 21:28:46 GMT
Hayden as Vader coming in Part 3!!! I’m so excited 😃😃😃😃
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Jun 1, 2022 2:24:33 GMT
Hayden as Vader coming in Part 3!!! I’m so excited 😃😃😃😃
Same. I think the next two episodes are really what will make or break this series. And the depiction of Vader will either strengthen or sink Obi-Wan Kenobi.
If I were to hazard a guess, we'll get a Clone War era flashback, and a plot line of little Luke similar to what we got for Leia. Hopefully Reva won't saturate the episodes, the focus should remain on Obi-Wan, though I have a feeling her screentime will only increase, at the Grand Inquisitors loss. We should still try to be patient with her as we had to be with Ahsoka in TCW (the key... is patience).
Anyone notice how the relationship between between Grand Inquisitor and Third Sister is a bit like the one between Obi-Wan - Anakin in Episode II? Constantly quarrelling, the junior being insubordinate to the senior. I wasn't surprised she turned on him, but I was surprised by how soon it came.
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Post by Cryogenic on Jun 1, 2022 3:30:33 GMT
On the Obi Wan and Leia meeting before ANH thing, Some people pointed out that he tells her his name is Ben, and there was a "plot hole" on ANH itself when Luke first meets Leia, he says he was here with Ben Kenobi, instead of Obi Wan, and the excitement she had after hearing it even thought she is supossed to only know Obi Wan Kenobi, I always interpreted that if she clearlty knew Obi Wan was hiding on Tatoooine she would know his fake name too, or the surname being an indicative that they were the same person and put two and two together, but now with this show it adds a new layer to Leia hearing Ben Kenobi in ANH. Huh. Interesting. I guess this didn't need "fixing", but it would be kinda neat, I suppose, if Luke inadvertently rouses Leia into action because he uses the name "Ben" -- a name, as you say, she would have prior familiarity with, like hearing it immediately awakens something within her. I've been meaning to delve into the various main media and social media responses to the show. I've done that a little bit already, reading a handful of pages/reviews so far, and the response seems mixed to positive? However, when I jumped into the comments for the original trailer just now, which has swelled to 18,037,469 views and 36,216 comments (compared to 7,312,215 views and 25,525 comments within the first 24 hours of its release -- as stated in Reply #176 of mine back on March 10th), I saw that there are plenty of negative ones coming in, if set to date order ("newest first"). Here's a few that have been posted since the show debuted on Disney+ (I'm ignoring older ones): The negativity on YouTube had already been bubbling up for two months, with these wise guys threatening to unleash spoilers on the top of us all. Actually, they did to a degree. They'd long made up their mind on the series before seeing it, and as you know, that's a trait I despise in any Star Wars fan. That's deplorable. As the song "That's Life" goes, some people get their kicks from stomping on a dream. And yes, we should really try to suspend judgement until we've actually seen the thing ourselves. Admittedly, we all fail a bit at this sometimes. Yeah, YouTube can be dire -- absolutely dire. It can also be surprisingly rich and engaging. I suppose it depends. Depends on the channel, the climate surrounding a given topic, and how many spambots and Russian troll accounts are operating. The comments section of YouTube probably isn't the best format, either. It encourages hot-headedness and glib punditry (which can be marvellous at its best) and it's the perfect environment for trolls. It's a shame when bad actors obliterate sincere reaction. There's something to be said for the noisy demotic space of YouTube comments. There can be a certain wisdom and amusement to be found there. The impotent anger toward the Obi-Wan series, though, is just totally boorish. The comments seem to be reacting to a perceived agenda and spreading propaganda (or just plainly sowing discord) of their own. I didn't mean to pay it much mind; and I don't think I have. I just went there as a basic intellectual exercise, just to see what was now being said about the show since it came out. I collated so many comments before, after the trailer was released; I felt curious, even a little obligated, to perform a brief follow-up. Elsewhere, I see that the series is generally receiving praise; perhaps qualified praise in some cases, but praise nonetheless. That's good. HAHA! I think they're reacting to the (perceived) "woke" agenda of Disney (and since they leave their objection unexplained, they seem to believe they already have a sympathetic audience), but yeah: fans were all about wrestling the series away from George Lucas and giving it to a major Hollywood studio, so the least they can do is be grateful they got their wish. You're absolutely right. Lucas took the high road despite suffering considerable, long-lasting abuse; while Disney/LFL haven't been slow to tar critics of their products as moral and intellectual inferiors. Lucas tended to imply his detractors were looking at Star Wars wrong and their perception was deficient; Disney/LFL tends to imply that the customers are wrong and deficient. Big difference. Although, based on the behaviour of some fans today, we can't say that the latter have gotten it totally wrong. Yeah, that's dreadful. Some people are definitely not right in the head. It's just entertainment. If you don't like it, move on.
Of course. Although Lucas began the series with a near-uniform sea of white-faced actors and extras. Carl Sagan was one of several people who pointed this odd limitation of Star Wars out not long after its release in an interview with Johnny Carson (original airdate March 2nd 1978): You'll notice that later installments tried to make amends, first with the casting of Billy Dee Williams, then several actors of colour in the prequels, not to mention blue skin being represented by Watto, while Jar Jar presents as orange. Chewie also gets a medal -- albeit Han's, not his own -- at the end of Episode IX. Lucas also wrote in his original notes that some beings are born with a higher awareness of the Force. He later transformed this concept into the midi-chlorians and the Whills, which he intended to elaborate on in the sequel trilogy. The situation, therefore, isn't quite as simplistic as Sagan paints it above, although his points are still quite valid and perhaps had an influence on Lucas. Sagan was an extremely articulate and inspiring person who basked in the media spotlight and commanded a great deal of attention in the late 1970s and on into the 1980s. It's interesting to note that Sagan himself was working on his epic television series Cosmos: A Personal Voyage at the same time Lucas was toiling away on the Original Trilogy. Both projects were charged with a certain Bicentennial confidence and faith in the human condition, and also took place against the backdrop of a new era in space exploration, including the launch of the Voyager space probes in 1977, heading to Jupiter and beyond, while Mars was successfully landed-upon and photographed for the first time by the Viking landers in 1976: our first glimpse, as Sagan would later write in the book accompanying the "Cosmos" series, of another world ("Mars was a place"). The "Cosmos" television series, first broadcast in 1980, would also unfold in thirteen episodes, and Lucas himself was fantasising about making Star Wars a thirteen-episode Saga at the time ( see here). Sagan poetically describes the wonder of the universe in "Cosmos", explaining the universe at the most tremendous and the tiniest of scales: immense clusters of galaxies, thrumming with energy and teeming with possibility, and the world of the biological cell, a strange environment where the physical and chemical sciences overlap and fuse to create the life sciences. In the first episode of the series, Sagan memorably remarks: "The Cosmos is rich beyond measure -- in elegant facts, in exquisite interrelationships, in the subtle machinery of awe." Perhaps Sagan's stirring descriptions had an impact on George Lucas, to the point where he felt compelled to introduce the midi-chlorians in Episode I. Lucas indicated upon release of the film that he based the midi-chlorians on the endosymbiotic theory of life, which was first articulated by the Russian botanist Konstantin Mereschkowski in the first decade of the 20th Century, and advanced and substantiated with microbiological evidence by Lynn Margulis (the first wife of Carl Sagan) in 1967 (also the year that pulsars were discovered by the Northern Ireland astrophysicist Jocelyn Bell Burnell). Now, what is my point in saying all of this? It's to remind fans -- and even Disney -- that Star Wars isn't meant to be propaganda, but it is meant to be an allegorical sandbox built on some bold and mind-expanding concepts. To chide non-white actors (and white actors) for not fitting into the Star Wars universe, just because they personally go against your sense of what Star Wars is, is ridiculous. Lucas set himself the task of developing an entire galaxy where many things ought to be possible, just as Sagan mused in "Cosmos". To harp on skin colour, when new tones and ethnicities appear, is to miss the point of Star Wars entirely. It is quite right that the Star Wars galaxy should be a pluralistic, diverse hub. If anything, Star Wars should have been leading the way on this from the start, rather than Disney making a big deal of it because Star Wars is flagging behind other franchises (though it can be debated if that's the case) in the diversity stakes. Everyone has the Force, after all. Yeah, perhaps it's really that Prequel Trilogy DNA they have a problem with. Everyone was a kid once, including Darth Vader. That's the whole premise of the PT. What's more, the Younglings are slaughtered by Vader, bringing about the Dark Times Obi-Wan speaks about to Luke in ANH. It's pretty apt that Obi-Wan should protect Luke's sister years before he attempts to bring Luke to Alderaan. He is officially now the protector of Anakin and Padme's children. He's the only one of the original prequel trio left. The only one who can really be hired for this job and be relied upon. This review also makes a good point: Exactly. The original film was a long list of fairy-tale cliches, but it worked because the execution was top-drawer. Yeah, it's good and necessary that Star Wars sometimes subvert a cliche or two, but it's also something of a storehouse of old storytelling tropes made new. People enjoy seeing these tropes brought to life on Star Wars' epic fantasy canvas. The point -- as always -- is to build decent characters and tell a compelling story; and to keep the world the characters inhabit lively and appealing. Right. Star Wars should never forget its core fanbase. Yes, adults and twenty-somethings bring in the loot, and maybe constitute the bulk of viewers of anything new, but many parents and siblings enjoy showing Star Wars content to their children and younger brothers and sisters, who go on to become the Star Wars fans of the future. It's a spectacularly dull complaint. I mean, sure, there's nothing wrong with Star Wars getting a bit edgier and adult, but that probably shouldn't happen with a legacy character like Obi-Wan. Best to leave that experimentation for a new roster of characters in different circumstances. Yeah, at the end of the day, most of these trolls don't have a lot to say for themselves, do they? There isn't a perfect director for Star Wars, anyway. The closest, for obvious reasons, would be George Lucas. Star Wars has many facets and different directors fit the franchise in different ways. Having a female director, who happens to also be Asian, is a welcome development here, not to mention one who has a strong regard for the prequels and wants to get it right. I guess they are complaining about Reva being the main villain and Obi-Wan presently escorting Leia, not Luke. However, if they also mean some criticism of Obi-Wan's sullen, out-of-sorts, beaten-down-by-the-world, all-by-himself portrayal in the first episode, then I guess directors like Darren Aronofsky ("The Wrestler", 2008), J.C. Chandor ("All Is Lost", 2013), James Mangold ("Logan", 2017), and Todd Phillips ("Joker", 2019) must hate men, too. Yeah, this rabble of QAnon complainers is pretty tedious. I'm not sure I completely agree with Carano's firing or the way it was handled, but that's a different series and happened at a time of enormous -- one might say: feverish -- political tension in the United States. A time when some of the basic checks and balances of democracy were being openly challenged in a dangerous and conspiratorial way. Lumping scorn on this series because of prior choices likely made by a handful of people reacting to pressure placed on the company to respond is misguided. Obi-Wan in the first episode places most of his remaining hope in Luke. But this is something of a false, white-flag hope, which Bail makes a point of calling out when Obi-Wan uses the excuse of protecting Luke as the reason he can't leave Tatooine to rescue Leia. So, yeah, you can see this as a listless, miserable Obi-Wan if you like, but he was obviously battered into hopelessness and resignation by the events of ROTS. At least he gets a bit firm with Owen that Luke is his responsibility and does agree to rescue Leia when Bail urges him and says there's no-one he trusts more. In fairness to Obi-Wan, there would be little reason to trust he still "has it", given his long years of isolation on Tatooine. This is a very fetching contrast with the arrogant, almost untouchable Obi-Wan of AOTC -- who, despite being frustrated with Anakin, planet-hops with calm swagger and acts like James Bond. The logical coherency of this portrayal rests on the golden crumb of Qui-Gon. At the end of ROTS, Obi-Wan's face lights up like a child's when Yoda tells him that his "Old Master" has returned from the Netherworld of the Force and Yoda will teach him how to commune with him in his solitude on Tatooine. The implication there is that there is no need for Obi-Wan to fall into despair, because Qui-Gon will be there to guide him. However, the series shows that Obi-Wan calls out to Qui-Gon but receives no response. Thus, Yoda's promise has shrivelled into a vacant, naive hope, leaving Obi-Wan adrift on a bleak, remorseless world. He additionally faces resistance from Owen and is told to stay away from his family, away from Luke. Meanwhile, the remaining Jedi are wanted fugitives. It is a much more realistic portrayal -- albeit still dipped in fantastic, mythic overtones -- than simply portraying Obi-Wan, in a strange place with no support, for literally years, as still firmly committed to the Jedi path. Even Yoda acts a little crazy when Luke finds him on Dagobah. In a way, the series is showing that Obi-Wan must still learn the pivotal lesson Qui-Gon talks about at the start of Episode I: He must stop fretting about the future (a future that he can't know the outcome of) and concentrate on the moment, on the here and now, where he is needed, where he can still do good. It is also not weak to agree to go to enemy territory when you're past your prime and you know there's a good chance of being caught. This, I guess, would be why they made the premiere a double-bill, to try and cut off some of this complaining. Unfortunately, they receive it anyway. Still, outside of these sparse, angry YouTube comments, it appears the series is mostly a win with Star Wars fans; and even people giving lukewarm responses still seem at least mildly interested in where it's going to go. Whether the series become a smash-hit remains to be seen, but the potential is there and a lot of people seem to recognise it has something a lot of Disney Star Wars has so far lacked. It is probably a good idea to enjoy it while it lasts. We still have people like George Lucas and John Williams walking this Earth. Williams himself composed new music for this, Ewan and Hayden agreed to come back with much enthusiasm, and many of the major creatives still at Lucasfilm now were hired when Lucas had command of the company. Nothing lasts forever. It may "only" be televisual Star Wars, but it's a little slice of franchise history nonetheless.
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Jun 1, 2022 4:06:54 GMT
I'm sorry to disappoint you Cryogenic, but I'm not a fan of Carl Sagan. I don't want to drag this thread off topic, so that is all I'll say
He's quite right on the absurdity of humans ruling a faraway galaxy of a long time ago though.
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Post by Cryogenic on Jun 1, 2022 4:54:35 GMT
I'm sorry to disappoint you Cryogenic, but I'm not a fan of Carl Sagan. I don't want to drag this thread off topic, so that is all I'll say Oh, right. I guess I did, in some sense, make good ol' Carl the pivot of my response, but there was still more put into it than that. Of course he is -- and, I think, being a tiny bit smug and joyfully self-righteous about it; as he educates the dumb, uncritical plebeians with his patrician eloquence.
Anyway, I kinda see George Lucas and Carl Sagan as two-of-a-kind. One is just more on the artistic/creative side of things, the other more critical and scientific. But they're both misty-eyed dreamers, both astute social critics, both visionaries, and both extremely accomplished in their own fields. Just as the establishment never quite took to Carl Sagan, it has never quite understood or welcomed George Lucas, either.
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Jun 1, 2022 13:22:53 GMT
So the third episode dropped, and I thought it was much better than the first two. The world seemed larger and more open, and there were some great vistas. I'm actually glad we're away from Tatooine in this one. Mustafar looked better and more like RotS than in Rogue One. Vader was handled pretty well, and the impact of Obi-Wan finding out Anakin is alive is really felt here. Him seeing a vision of Anakin was great (Through the Force things you will see. Other places. The future, the past. Old friends long gone.), but I wish we got a better look at him. Vader was more terrifying than he's ever been. Snapping the neck of a teenager might have been too much for my tastes, though. Lucas was careful not to show him killing the younglings. The duel was a bit underwhelming. Otherwise a great episode.
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Post by stampidhd280pro on Jun 1, 2022 14:32:33 GMT
Isn't the mining planet just Tatooine with some dusty weeds though? The pacing seemed especially slow. I knew Obi-Wan was going to be weak, to make their fight in ANH seem plausible. Aside from one or two lines, (Have you ever been afraid of the dark?), this episode was very paint-by-numbers. If this show in its second half doesn't reveal anything that changes the story in some radical way, I'll be disappointed. This seems like their last chance to have an effect on the overall story, and I'm starting get the feeling that they're just filling up a gap in the storyline with the most obvious scenarios.
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Jun 1, 2022 14:48:21 GMT
Isn't the mining planet just Tatooine with some dusty weeds though? The pacing seemed especially slow. I knew Obi-Wan was going to be weak, to make their fight in ANH seem plausible. Aside from one or two lines, (Have you ever been afraid of the dark?), this episode was very paint-by-numbers. If this show in its second half doesn't reveal anything that changes the story in some radical way, I'll be disappointed. This seems like their last chance to have an effect on the overall story, and I'm starting get the feeling that they're just filling up a gap in the storyline with the most obvious scenarios. I thought the mining planet looked sufficiently different from Tatooine. I was ready to decry yet another desert-like planet, but it did have some nice shots of the hills that made it unique. It does appear that the whole premise of the show (or its first season at least) is getting Leia to safety, which is slightly disappointing. There are many things that I wish they would show, like more Luke, Obi actually communing with Qui-Gon, Yoda and flashbacks of the Clone Wars. I'm sure there will be another confrontation that is more substantial between Obi and Vader. Leia and the duel with Obi/Vader seem like the major points of the series.
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Post by nickromancer on Jun 1, 2022 16:14:27 GMT
The planet was very similar to many other planets in the tv shows. But I did like how the arid grassland environment gave a biblical feeling, especially when Obi-Wan sees an image of Anakin in robes
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Post by stampidhd280pro on Jun 1, 2022 17:16:06 GMT
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Post by jppiper on Jun 1, 2022 17:27:03 GMT
So the third episode dropped, and I thought it was much better than the first two. The world seemed larger and more open, and there were some great vistas. I'm actually glad we're away from Tatooine in this one. Mustafar looked better and more like RotS than in Rogue One. Vader was handled pretty well, and the impact of Obi-Wan finding out Anakin is alive is really felt here. Him seeing a vision of Anakin was great (Through the Force things you will see. Other places. The future, the past. Old friends long gone.), but I wish we got a better look at him. Vader was more terrifying than he's ever been. Snapping the neck of a teenager might have been too much for my tastes, though. Lucas was careful not to show him killing the younglings. The duel was a bit underwhelming. Otherwise a great episode. If the Fans had their way it would be Bloodier and Gorier
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Jun 1, 2022 17:28:40 GMT
To me the Anakin vision brought to mind Passion of the Christ. I thought that part was pretty well done, but again something about the camera work felt off. It didn't quite have the punch it needed.
I had my worries that the series would be too dark and a downer, based on the rumors of the early ideas for the series, which it kind of is. And it's pretty violent, too. Reva just cuts off a woman's hand, something that happens a lot in Star Wars, but rarely does it appear so cruel. Then Vader tortures people in this new episode. I really hope that the series has a hopeful end. It has to.
And the way Obi-Wan got away from Vader just seemed contrived. Like their whole confrontation was pointless and should have been left for the last episode(s).
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