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Post by jppiper on May 21, 2022 22:48:55 GMT
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Post by Cryogenic on May 22, 2022 0:22:03 GMT
That article rests on a faulty premise: That "The Last Jedi" was a daring, bold, glorious reinvigoration of the Star Wars spirit, when -- despite some new elements -- it was a shallow, annoying, repetitive, regurgitated crapfest disguised as art. TLJ hardly brought any new worlds or horizons to the screen. What it mostly did was grind the Saga through some pretentious arthouse mincer and sprinkle some fake diamonds on the compressed mess that emerged the other side. Harsh? Yeah. I mean, look, it's still a compelling movie. But the film blatantly revisits TESB and ROTJ to a degree that is downright shocking and obnoxious. The "new" plot element of a chase in space, meanwhile, just brings the whole film to a crashing halt. Where is the soaring production design? The visual splendour? The fiendish imagination? It's all so fucking muggy and boring. A lot of the camera work is really insipid and downright ugly, too. Especially the base scenes on Crait. They look like they were done on a cheap HD camera by a second unit. Ugly colours, terrible framing, and vapid compositions. Shit dialogue, too. For a film that needed a kick up its rear, those base scenes only throw the vacuity of this "reimagining" by inferior minds (who think they're brilliant, pioneering geniuses) into sharp relief. This long, establishing crane shot in AOTC is better than anything in TLJ and the rest of the Sequel Trilogy. And far more beautiful. Fact.As for the new Obi-Wan miniseries? I'm still taking a "wait and see" attitude. It'll probably be a wet fart, but that's to be expected by now.
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on May 22, 2022 0:25:56 GMT
I think I need to cut McGregor some slack.
The more interviews I watch, the more I notice a lot of very interesting things being brought up. In the Vanity Fair video, for example, alongside Christensen and Ingram, he talks about Ahmed Best's Jar Jar, something no interviewer had thought about mentioning to the cast when discussing the prequels. In another interview, he delves into key prequel concepts like the Jedi Order, Order 66, the master-padowan relationship and yes, even Padmé.
Portman's character is all too often shied away from, as if we want to pretend she doesn't exist, or that her character was of no real impact on the story, why even bother with her? So for McGregor to bring up the wife of Anakin Skywalker in relation to a question about minding and looking after a young Luke Skywalker, that was quite considerable, even introspective. Either he's really been doing his homework on the PT, Padmé is in the show and its thus in his head, or a combination of both.
I really like the idea, in fact I've long harboured the belief, that Obi-Wan looked over Luke, not just in the blind hope that he would one day defeat the empire, but as a duty to his two deceased friends (he's wrong on the Anakin one of course). He is a Godfather, if you will, and he has to look over one of the two orphaned children. Perhaps handed directly to the Lars family as to keep a safe distance, in case the empire come near.
I'm also really loving the way Chow talks about this series. She's very sincere, and eloquent in how she discusses filmmaking and Lucas' mythology, and is a relief from the smartass, trying o be witty but really not, JJ Abrams. She also doesn't have any of the arrogance of a Rian Johnson. Her cool, calm persona is rather Lucas-esque, if I may say so.
TCW is the place to go to see the friendship between Padmé and Obi-Wan illustrated, just one scene of them in ROTS. There are plenty of scenes between Padmé and Ahsoka too, it's another fascinating character relationship. In fact, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Ahsoka and Padmé were quite a close knit group during the Clone War period. In many ways, they are my generation's equivalent to the Luke, Leia and Han gang of the OT.
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Post by Cryogenic on May 22, 2022 1:23:14 GMT
I really like the idea, in fact I've long harboured the belief, that Obi-Wan looked over Luke, not just in the blind hope that he would one day defeat the empire, but as a duty to his two deceased friends (he's wrong on the Anakin one of course). He is a Godfather, if you will, and he has to look over one of the two orphaned children. Perhaps handed directly to the Lars family as to keep a safe distance, in case the empire come near. He's definitely doing his duty in watching over Luke. In fact, at the start of ROTS, he admonishes Anakin for straying to help the clone troopers under attack: "No, no. They are doing their duty and we can do ours." Later, he asserts he can't follow Anakin down the path of empire because: "[His] allegiance is to the Republic -- to democracy." To people. There are also the many layers of sorrow and rebuke in his final words to Padme after she refuses to disclose Anakin's whereabouts: "Anakin is the father, isn't he? I'm so sorry." In saying he will "watch over" Luke, he is actually taking a leaf from Palpatine's book, who tells Anakin back in Episode I: "We will watch your career with great interest." Only, this time, it's more benevolent (and Obi-Wan's assumed name on Tatooine reflects that). Actual relatives will do the raising, and Obi-Wan will be there in the background, keeping guard and protecting from afar. But yes, it does bring the role of a godfather to mind. Obi-Wan has every intent of one day picking up where the Lars leave off, encouraging Luke to become a Jedi and even symbolically handing down Anakin's lightsaber -- as if trying to redeem his own life in the process. I'm of the opinion that one of the most brilliant and devastating story choices Lucas made in ROTS (and there's a lot to choose from) was having Obi-Wan go to Padme, break her heart with the revelation that Anakin has turned to the Dark Side, and ultimately get her to inadvertently lead him straight to Anakin. And the clincher: Obi-Wan appearing at the top of the ramp of the ship when he did. It's reasonable to assume Obi-Wan ran that confrontation over in his head many times afterward, because it not only led to the destruction of Anakin, but to the loss of Padme, and two children were orphaned -- and separated -- in the process. I wish Lucas had left the earlier scene of Obi-Wan going to Padme's apartment and talking about his worries toward Anakin with her, gently asking her to try and keep him on the straight and narrow. It would have made for a hounding contrast with their later scene and given us a bit more of their connection to ingest. As it is, even with the economic storytelling of the finished movie, you easily detect the affection that the two (Obi-Wan and Padme) have for one another. Years ago, I likened the Anakin-Padme-Obi-Wan dynamic to the so-called Camelot era of the JKF presidency. A political fantasy that couldn't last. And aptly enough, Natalie Portman would go on to play Jackie Kennedy in the film Jackie, a decade after the completion of the PT. I'll need to watch these new clips to get a better sense of her, but from the little of seen and heard of her, Chow does seem pretty sincere and a lot less smug and loquacious than Abrams and Johnson. She doesn't seem to be someone chasing the limelight or going out of her way to authorially impose herself. Not everyone has to be the same way, of course, but this is a nice change.
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on May 22, 2022 1:28:23 GMT
This second sentence shows us yet another example of why the critical response to the sequel era is so different to the prequel era. During Lucas' time in charge, you'd be lucky to get a geek publication to say ROTS was divisive, and admit some people actually loved it - a step up from being labelled "universally panned" - much less for AOTC or TPM.
The OT Boomers need to put a sock in their false analogies, and refresh their memory.
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Post by Cryogenic on May 22, 2022 1:40:13 GMT
This second sentence shows us yet another example of why the critical response to the sequel era is so different to the prequel era. During Lucas' time in charge, you'd be lucky to get a geek publication to say ROTS was divisive, and admit some people actually loved it - a step up from being labelled "universally panned" - much less for AOTC or TPM.
This is a very good catch, AD. Totally. The geek media continues to curate reality and frame things in specific, misleading ways. They do. Unfortunately, their poison continues to have a noticeable effect on younger generations. I doubt that person is any kind of boomer. This is what their little bio says: Sounds like they might live near me -- maybe I've even met them without realising. (I'm not a million miles away from Aberystwyth). I should have words!
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on May 22, 2022 2:02:03 GMT
In saying he will "watch over" Luke, he is actually taking a leaf from Palpatine's book, who tells Anakin back in Episode I: "We will watch your career with great interest." Only, this time, it's more benevolent (and Obi-Wan's assumed name on Tatooine reflects that). Actual relatives will do the raising, and Obi-Wan will be there in the background, keeping guard and protecting from afar. But yes, it does bring the role of a godfather to mind. Obi-Wan has every intent of one day picking up where the Lars leave off, encouraging Luke to become a Jedi and even symbolically handing down Anakin's lightsaber -- as if trying to redeem his own life in the process. I'm of the opinion that one of the most brilliant and devastating story choices Lucas made in ROTS (and there's a lot to choose from) was having Obi-Wan go to Padme, break her heart with the revelation that Anakin has turned to the Dark Side, and ultimately get her to inadvertently lead him straight to Anakin. And the clincher: Obi-Wan appearing at the top of the ramp of the ship when he did. It's reasonable to assume Obi-Wan ran that confrontation over in his head many times afterward, because it not only led to the destruction of Anakin, but to the loss of Padme, and two children were orphaned -- and separated -- in the process.
Interesting thoughts there.
McGregor rased a fascinating point in one interview where he spoke about the contradiction in his character's life in how he's become broken, crushed and hopeless from the defeat during ROTS, and yet there also remains hope in the child he looks after.
I wish Lucas had left the earlier scene of Obi-Wan going to Padme's apartment and talking about his worries toward Anakin with her, gently asking her to try and keep him on the straight and narrow. It would have made for a hounding contrast with their later scene and given us a bit more of their connection to ingest. As it is, even with the economic storytelling of the finished movie, you easily detect the affection that the two (Obi-Wan and Padme) have for one another. Years ago, I likened the Anakin-Padme-Obi-Wan dynamic to the so-called Camelot era of the JKF presidency. A political fantasy that couldn't last. And aptly enough, Natalie Portman would go on to play Jackie Kennedy in the film Jackie, a decade after the completion of the PT.
It's a quad! Watch The Clone Wars, and thank me later. It's better than anything live-action Disney has put out.
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Post by Ingram on May 22, 2022 3:19:38 GMT
That article rests on a faulty premise: That "The Last Jedi" was a daring, bold, glorious reinvigoration of the Star Wars spirit, when -- despite some new elements -- it was a shallow, annoying, repetitive, regurgitated crapfest disguised as art. TLJ hardly brought any new worlds or horizons to the screen. What it mostly did was grind the Saga through some pretentious arthouse mincer and sprinkle some fake diamonds on the compressed mess that emerged the other side. Harsh? Yeah. I mean, look, it's still a compelling movie. But the film blatantly revisits TESB and ROTJ to a degree that is downright shocking and obnoxious. The "new" plot element of a chase in space, meanwhile, just brings the whole film to a crashing halt. Where is the soaring production design? The visual splendour? The fiendish imagination? It's all so fucking muggy and boring. A lot of the camera work is really insipid and downright ugly, too. Especially the base scenes on Crait. They look like they were done on a cheap HD camera by a second unit. Ugly colours, terrible framing, and vapid compositions. Shit dialogue, too. For a film that needed a kick up its rear, those base scenes only throw the vacuity of this "reimagining" by inferior minds (who think they're brilliant, pioneering geniuses) into sharp relief. Harsh much? While I still find it the most agreeable of the three, yeah, has ever a movie spun its wheels in place more than The Last Jedi? If the shortest distance between two points is a straight line then that movie finds an even shorter path by being just a dot. I remain more critical of the visuals amidst its neighboring installments, however. Sure, Johnson pauses once too often for a reach in 'Conceptual Portrait' photoshoot style imagery at the expense of communicating a more comprehensive visual grammar and his art-direction can be postmodern to a level of lethargy, its color wheel no broader than a sample booklet of stone tiles. Yet the movie can be comely in the same respect, and I maintain that Johnson has richer scale and cleaner editing in action than JJ 'the Pretender' Abrams who -- well, lets just give him props for uniformity -- directs at the same level of sophistication with which he writes ...leaving it at that. Obi-Wan Kenobi meanwhile, from the trailers and especially that clip a page back, just looks stock as hell. I mean, is this Star Wars or an episode of Law & Order? It's a current year TV show and Chow a current year TV show director so...par for the course, I guess. All the above together, it does make me yearn for the workmanlike unaffectedness of Richard Marquand.
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Post by emperorferus on May 22, 2022 3:43:10 GMT
I think I need to cut McGregor some slack.
The more interviews I watch, the more I notice a lot of very interesting things being brought up. In the Vanity Fair video, for example, alongside Christensen and Ingram, he talks about Ahmed Best's Jar Jar, something no interviewer had thought about mentioning to the cast when discussing the prequels. In another interview, he delves into key prequel concepts like the Jedi Order, Order 66, the master-padowan relationship and yes, even Padmé.
Portman's character is all too often shied away from, as if we want to pretend she doesn't exist, or that her character was of no real impact on the story, why even bother with her? So for McGregor to bring up the wife of Anakin Skywalker in relation to a question about minding and looking after a young Luke Skywalker, that was quite considerable, even introspective. Either he's really been doing his homework on the PT, Padmé is in the show and its thus in his head, or a combination of both.
I really like the idea, in fact I've long harboured the belief, that Obi-Wan looked over Luke, not just in the blind hope that he would one day defeat the empire, but as a duty to his two deceased friends (he's wrong on the Anakin one of course). He is a Godfather, if you will, and he has to look over one of the two orphaned children. Perhaps handed directly to the Lars family as to keep a safe distance, in case the empire come near.
I'm also really loving the way Chow talks about this series. She's very sincere, and eloquent in how she discusses filmmaking and Lucas' mythology, and is a relief from the smartass, trying o be witty but really not, JJ Abrams. She also doesn't have any of the arrogance of a Rian Johnson. Her cool, calm persona is rather Lucas-esque, if I may say so.
TCW is the place to go to see the friendship between Padmé and Obi-Wan illustrated, just one scene of them in ROTS. There are plenty of scenes between Padmé and Ahsoka too, it's another fascinating character relationship. In fact, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Ahsoka and Padmé were quite a close knit group during the Clone War period. In many ways, they are my generation's equivalent to the Luke, Leia and Han gang of the OT.
I haven't seen that many episodes of the series since early 2019, but this comment gives me a new appreciation for the character dynamics in TCW.
It's hard to say how much the anti-PT directors/creators have been influenced by Kathleen/Disney or thier own biases, but you're right that this series seems to be respecting the trilogy.
I may have said this before, but I wish a non-Imperial antagonist was being used, but I am also excited to see the PT era celebrated the way the OT has been (well, at least they thought they were celebrating it).
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Post by Cryogenic on May 22, 2022 4:24:59 GMT
Ingram, ma boogie. I was hoping you'd show up. Yes, harsh. Harsh as hell. It's a movie that generates a lot of internal conflict in me. Yes, the wheel-spinning aspect of the movie is infuriating. But it's also all the recycling/rehashing that accompanies it. So much cribbed from TESB and ROTJ, yet passed off as daring, inventive, new. Between them, TFA and TLJ make for a weirdly fractious pair, and a pretty dismal two-thirds of a trilogy. The story -- what little there is -- barely feels told by the end of TLJ. Yet the trilogy is almost over by then. One could draw an equivalence with the OT and the PT, but they still offer abundant imagination and a rich assemblage of action, adventure, and meaty themes. TFA and TLJ, on the other hand, are awkward chimeras: OT rehash movies at odds with each other, both doggedly refusing to establish an epic backdrop or do much that would infuse the trilogy with its own momentum and identity. They work reasonably well as movies in their own right, but they make for shitty chapters in a Star Wars trilogy. Ha! Natty description. Yeah, the cinematography of TLJ is decent on its own terms, but weirdly callow next to the bounteous framing and vivid colouration of the preceding saga movies (even TFA). Of course, on some level, that's deliberate. But here is where it stands out like a sore thumb. Because the camera is heavier, and far less limber than Abrams' camera on TFA, too. It's not even at the Lucas-level of "documentary fantasy". It's just frozen up so often or put really close in the actors' faces. No Star Wars movie has more turgidity in its camera placements, movements, and sheer abundance of close-ups than TLJ. I think the movie tries to balance deconstruction with an arthouse mystification in this way, but I'm not sure it goes too well against the other movies. And it probably reflects limitations on the part of the film's director. Johnson has admitted, for example, that he isn't keen on worldbuilding, and that he really only cares about plot, characters, and themes. Not all of Rian Johnson's writing is all that sophisticated, bro. Some of his dialogue is blatantly expository. Like: beating-you-over-the-head expository. I think he does have a much cleaner command of action, and a better sense of scale, however. So, yeah, I'm with you there. That said, I also think JJ really upped his game in TROS, delivering action sequences that were not merely loud, but zesty and fun. The scene of Rey running ahead of Kylo's TIE Whisper and somersault-slicing it is superbly edited. Yet the standout action scene of the Sequel Trilogy probably remains the red guard fight in Snoke's chamber. Even the short scene of Rey duelling Luke in the rain, while pallid and dark, is clean and effective. However, there is more fury to the action scenes in TROS, possibly stemming from a deeper fusion of choreography, staging, effects, and sound design. In short, despite solid technical/aesthetic qualities in TLJ, I prefer TROS much more. I'm with you on the stock look of the Kenobi series. Marquand certainly delivered solid results under Lucas' supervision. If anything, he gave the OT a theatrical upgrade, bringing a certain poise, grace, and poignant solemnity it had lacked (or that had been latent) to that point, through a series of measured, well-directed scenes involving Luke and his mentors on Dagobah and his Force-gifted family members on Endor, with a pleasing sense of mysticism retained. I doubt this new series can boast anything comparable. Yet I'm striving not to be a party pooper about this. It's hard, though. I loved Star Wars when it was so beautifully composed and classical-looking that all the shallow tricks and tics currently in-vogue weren't even thought of when watching. Because Lucas' Kurosawa-influenced camera aesthetics were perfect already. This looks, yah... assembly line.
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on May 22, 2022 18:52:58 GMT
I haven't seen that many episodes of the series since early 2019, but this comment gives me a new appreciation for the character dynamics in TCW.
It's hard to say how much the anti-PT directors/creators have been influenced by Kathleen/Disney or thier own biases, but you're right that this series seems to be respecting the trilogy.
I may have said this before, but I wish a non-Imperial antagonist was being used, but I am also excited to see the PT era celebrated the way the OT has been (well, at least they thought they were celebrating it).
I loved the episodes which focused more on these character relationships. I always regretted how in the last three seasons they spent less and less time with Padmé, it is hardly a coincidence that the hardcore SW fans tend to boast about these the most. While it was important that they depict scenes from the war, the most interesting were often the simple, ordinary day life ones.
I've got a question mark on the inquisitors too. I never liked the idea of them in Rebels, I felt it was the inflation of force users at a time where they're suppose to be dwindling. I much prefer the idea of Episode IV's mocking but mortal imperials, who are dismissive of the very concept of the Force, and treat the Jedi as a sect from a long bygone era. It seems like the Republic is gone with 40-50 years, but of course it's only 19 years in reality. There's value in scarcity.
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Post by Cryogenic on May 22, 2022 19:12:13 GMT
Some new footage here:
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Post by jppiper on May 22, 2022 20:16:24 GMT
I haven't seen that many episodes of the series since early 2019, but this comment gives me a new appreciation for the character dynamics in TCW.
It's hard to say how much the anti-PT directors/creators have been influenced by Kathleen/Disney or thier own biases, but you're right that this series seems to be respecting the trilogy.
I may have said this before, but I wish a non-Imperial antagonist was being used, but I am also excited to see the PT era celebrated the way the OT has been (well, at least they thought they were celebrating it).
I loved the episodes which focused more on these character relationships. I always regretted how in the last three seasons they spent less and less time with Padmé, it is hardly a coincidence that the hardcore SW fans tend to boast about these the most. While it was important that they depict scenes from the war, the most interesting were often the simple, ordinary day life ones.
I've got a question mark on the inquisitors too. I never liked the idea of them in Rebels, I felt it was the inflation of force users at a time where they're suppose to be dwindling. I much prefer the idea of Episode IV's mocking but mortal imperials, who are dismissive of the very concept of the Force, and treat the Jedi as a sect from a long bygone era. It seems like the Republic is gone with 40-50 years, but of course it's only 19 years in reality. There's value in scarcity.
Some have complained how the Jedi are forgotten in just 19 years (and don't forget all the inquisitors in rebels were killed off)
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Post by deliveranze on May 22, 2022 22:32:13 GMT
I’m pretty excited for this show. More excited for this than literally anything SW since 2005. Seeing Ewan and Hayden together and the possibility of a character driven drama reflecting on how much Obi-Wan has lost in the storm of emotions that ROTS drives me to every time I watch is a compelling hook for me.
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Post by stampidhd280pro on May 22, 2022 23:04:24 GMT
I’m pretty excited for this show. More excited for this than literally anything SW since 2005. Seeing Ewan and Hayden together and the possibility of a character driven drama reflecting on how much Obi-Wan has lost in the storm of emotions that ROTS drives me to every time I watch is a compelling hook for me. if I'm honest, i am too. I think the story of Owen and Beru and their perception of Anakin and Obi-Wan was always a curious thing to leave out, and now that the Clone Wars has been explained, the Skywalker family history begs to be. I hope that's the main aim of this series. And that it's done well.
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Post by Cryogenic on May 22, 2022 23:46:42 GMT
I’m pretty excited for this show. More excited for this than literally anything SW since 2005. Seeing Ewan and Hayden together and the possibility of a character driven drama reflecting on how much Obi-Wan has lost in the storm of emotions that ROTS drives me to every time I watch is a compelling hook for me. if I'm honest, i am too. I think the story of Owen and Beru and their perception of Anakin and Obi-Wan was always a curious thing to leave out, and now that the Clone Wars has been explained, the Skywalker family history begs to be. I hope that's the main aim of this series. And that it's done well. It's fertile ground for a well-made series to exploit. Much more compelling than ragtag rebels vs. another empire again. Especially when you have prequel actors and other people working on it that see the prequels as something more than an unfortunate stain on the franchise best left behind.
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on May 23, 2022 4:11:00 GMT
God damn it, I had a long response to Cryo's last post, and for some stupid reason my text disappeared when I returned to the tab. No saved draft working.
Anyway here's another interview set from Germany:
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on May 23, 2022 9:19:39 GMT
The most revealing interview Christensen has done in a long time. And a mighty defence of Lucas in a major publication [insert bicep flex emoji] :
I guess you never predicted you'd see this kind of a front page Cryogenic?
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Post by Cryogenic on May 23, 2022 23:16:34 GMT
The most revealing interview Christensen has done in a long time. And a mighty defence of Lucas in a major publication [insert bicep flex emoji] :
Oh, wow. That's a really sterling defence of the dialogue -- the kind that only prequel fans make. Bloody awesome. Hayden has really taken the prequels to heart, hasn't he? Has he ever hung out on a Star Wars message board, I wonder? Never ever! I saw it today at work. Ewan (as Obi-Wan) was on the cover of a few TV magazines last week, too. Kind of surreal to see that while you're working and gathering those things up at the end of the night. Star Wars dominates my work life and my private life. Must be all this conversation we've been having. We've caused a ripple in the Force!
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Post by deliveranze on May 23, 2022 23:40:17 GMT
The most revealing interview Christensen has done in a long time. And a mighty defence of Lucas in a major publication [insert bicep flex emoji] :
I guess you never predicted you'd see this kind of a front page Cryogenic?
I was just about to post lol. I love Hayden and how much of a class act he is. Even when journalists try to bait him to say something smearing against the PT, he doesn’t give an inch to that. Truly grateful for him getting the role and it’s fantastic he got to play arguably the most important character in the franchise.
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