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Post by Ingram on May 17, 2022 23:04:33 GMT
Look, just take a step back out of the weeds of marketing and disposable memory-holed commerce. Take a moment with the big picture here.
How long since Disney acquired this franchise, 2012? 2015, let's say, for their first movie and it's now 2022. We're seven years in. They could literally be doing anything with the franchise at this point. Generating entirely new and original content. New heroes. A new hero's journey, with a new and original storied construct of good vs. evil set elsewhere in the galaxy, entirely or at least in aggregate removed from the Skywalker saga. Worlds, premises, persuasions, excursions, dramas etc. separate from the network of the Skywalker/Empire time span. Seven years in, guys, and what are we getting? What is Disney bringing to the big small screen?
An Obi-Wan Kenobi / Darth Vader showdown.
*throws hands up*
ARYU. FUHKKEN. KITTINGME.
Hey, hows about for the next Disney + series we get Luke Skywalker, where a young deepfake Mark Hamill squares off against Vader during a storyline set between the events of Episode V and VI? "Well, logically you could make it work because, ya see, technically Luke this and technically Vader that...X, Y and Z..."
Great. Yeah, no, great. That's great. Terrific. Thrilled.
Sorry for the fun-spoiling rant. It was compulsive. For those of you psyched, I really do hope you enjoy this series' potential.
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Post by smittysgelato on May 17, 2022 23:12:15 GMT
I've always said that this series should be called Ben Kenobi, but it makes sense an Inquisitor would just call him Obi-Wan.
An additional thought: The dialogue in EP IV isn't the best way to measure the appropriateness of this series. Vader claims to have left Obi-Wan when he was a learner, but in Episode III he is already a Jedi Knight, not a Padawan. Furthermore, there is absolutely no mention of Qui-Gon in the OT, Obi-Wan only ever mentions Yoda being his teacher.
I'm willing to cut this show some slack.
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Post by smittysgelato on May 17, 2022 23:39:58 GMT
Didn't Natalie visit the Rogue One set and say something to the effect that it was too bad her character was dead because that means she can't be in more Star Wars movies? She sounded interested in doing more circa 2016. I don't want them to bring Padme back to life, tho. Her death is just too important to the integrity of the continuity and the thematic significance of the story.
Padmé and Mace Windu are as dead as can be. Flashbacks, dreams, visions, however, are another matter.
I think you may be referring to one of the sequels films, where Natalie visited Oscar Isaac, who I believe are friends. Was it TLJ? I don't recall any comments during Rogue One, unless you have them.
Apparently she visited the set of both Rogue One and VIII www.starwarsunderworld.com/2016/08/natalie-portman-reveals-she-visited.htmlI couldn't read the LA Times article that Star Wars Underworld links to, because of my ad blocker haha. Maybe she mentions her interest in returning to Star Wars in that article. |
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Post by Cryogenic on May 17, 2022 23:56:53 GMT
Oh, Jiminy Crickets!  I like the idea of the series because at some point between Episode III and IV, Obi-Wan finds out that Anakin survived and is now more machine than man. I kinda wanna see that moment (and Uncle Owen's relationship with Obi-Wan can be developed). Exactly. There's a lot of storytelling potential here -- and, I might add, a better opportunity to bridge the PT and OT than "Rogue One" ever offered. Part of Chow’s successful perspective on “why” Vader and Kenobi should face each other again may surprise even the most ardent Star Wars fans, especially those who think of the two as harboring an epic contempt for one another. “For me, across the prequels, through the original trilogy, there’s a love-story dynamic with these two that goes through the whole thing,” Chow says. “I felt like it was quite hard to not [include] the person who left Kenobi in such anguish in the series.” What intrigued her was the idea that despite what Vader had become, Kenobi might still care deeply about him. “I don’t know how you could not,” she says. “I don’t think he ever will not care about him. What’s special about that relationship is that they loved each other.” Sentimentalism over story. I'm not sure how you derive that value. It's a radical, yet eminently sensible, way of approaching their relationship in light of the complexities thrown up by the PT. Padme literally loses the will to live because of Anakin's crimes, and her final words to Obi-Wan are that there's still good in him. This might just shake Obi-Wan's conscience a tad, especially after he laments failing Anakin on Mustafar. Moreover, Obi-Wan is left with a ray of hope when Yoda tells him that Qui-Gon has returned from the Netherworld of the Force and that it's possible to communicate with him. And it's Qui-Gon himself who is supposedly now an avatar of compassion -- compassion, Lucas tells us through Qui-Gon, is the answer to the dark. So why wouldn't Anakin's awful fate as Darth Vader play profoundly on Obi-Wan's mind? If anything, the issue here is that this material is quite psychologically weighty for Star Wars, especially for someone who isn't George Lucas to dare to pursue. The stuff I've seen that raises red flags for me is the actiony Inquisitor stuff mixed in. You're supposed to get the impression that Obi Wan hasn't been reminded of his identity in many years. How many years before ANH is this series set? 10? “Obi-Wan Kenobi, now that’s a name I’ve not heard in a long time.” “You can’t run Obi-Wan!” “I sense something, a presence I’ve not felt since” (when? Mustafar! Every kid knows that) They are not even trying to stay consistent with the films. The dialogue in EP IV isn't the best way to measure the appropriateness of this series. Vader claims to have left Obi-Wan when he was a learner, but in Episode III he is already a Jedi Knight, not a Padawan. Furthermore, there is absolutely no mention of Qui-Gon in the OT, Obi-Wan only ever mentions Yoda being his teacher. I'm willing to cut this show some slack. Exactly. There's also the matter of Obi-Wan haphazardly calling Vader "Darth" when they duel on the Death Star, his not recognising R2-D2, and a persistent passage-of-time discrepancy: ANH is supposed to be set a mere 19 years after ROTS, but Obi-Wan, Owen, and Beru all look as if they've aged at least 30 years. Even the line that is being alluded to -- "Obi-Wan? Now that's a name I've not heard in a long time, a long time. I haven't gone by the name Obi-Wan since, oh, before you were born" -- was already contradicted by the prequels when Padme calls Obi-Wan by his name after Luke is born. The easiest way to remedy this continuity glitch is to simply go with Obi-Wan lying to Luke or misremembering his past (deliberately forgetting it, like Jar Jar or Anakin, you might say). Or maybe he's dissimulating: "gone by the name" implies that maybe "Obi-Wan" is his nom de voyage: his old Jedi name that Obi-Wan no longer travels under. Even the title of the show implies that "Obi-Wan Kenobi" is an alter-ego of sorts, like the name and identity of Batman is the alter-ego of the lonely billionaire Bruce Wayne. It's Star Wars. Switch off your targeting computer and use your imagination. |
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Post by smittysgelato on May 18, 2022 0:04:40 GMT
William Blake loves you right now Cryo:
"The cistern contains, the fountain overflows." -Proverbs of Hell.
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Post by Cryogenic on May 18, 2022 0:18:42 GMT
William Blake loves you right now Cryo: "The cistern contains, the fountain overflows." -Proverbs of Hell. Interesting. That's how I've always looked at the PT: as a bright, big, bubbly fountain. |
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Post by stampidhd280pro on May 18, 2022 0:24:06 GMT
I just find it odd that Prequel fans who have disliked what Disney has done so far and/or have disregarded Star Wars TV in general, are suddenly interested in a new series set during the Empire era. They're luring us in with heavy doses of nostalgia. Do you really think a TV show on a streaming platform that gave us Baby Yoda is going to enhance George's story?
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Post by smittysgelato on May 18, 2022 0:40:36 GMT
I'm a 90's Disney kid, so I don't hate Disney Star Wars. I merely have nitpicks.
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Post by Cryogenic on May 18, 2022 0:41:47 GMT
I just find it odd that Prequel fans who have disliked what Disney has done so far and/or have disregarded Star Wars TV in general, are suddenly interested in a new series set during the Empire era. They're luring us in with heavy doses of nostalgia. Do you really think a TV show on a streaming platform that gave us Baby Yoda is going to enhance George's story? Better to be lured with PT nostalgia than OT nostalgia! I mean, c'mon, that's an improvement, of sorts -- like luring a donkey with an Easter hamper instead of a desiccated carrot. Nevertheless, if I find sanctuary in my cynical side, then this series is probably going to suck/not suck as much as the others. Most of Disney Star Wars has been little more than a big yawn. I get Ingram's point that they're still clinging to known quantities like giant space ticks. Maybe it's the star power of Ewan and Hayden that gives this thing a bit more wattage. This is the first time a prequel main (or almost-main: majorly supporting) character is heading a Disney series. It's kind of a big deal. And not. I'm easy on it. I have a sort of contained excitement about the whole thing. It might work, it might not. It doesn't change the brilliance of the prequels either way. |
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Post by stampidhd280pro on May 18, 2022 0:55:06 GMT
To be clear, this is just as much OT worship as it is prequel nostalgia. If anything, it's likely to be the biggest course correction to the prequels since The Force Awakens. Keep your eyes on TFN. Unless Disney royally fucks up (like with the ST), the biggest takeaway from this show will inevitably be "this is what the prequels should have been all along." but yeah, we're kinda going in circles now.
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Post by Cryogenic on May 18, 2022 1:23:33 GMT
To be clear, this is just as much OT worship as it is prequel nostalgia. If anything, it's likely to be the biggest course correction to the prequels since The Force Awakens. Keep your eyes on TFN. Unless Disney royally fucks up (like with the ST), the biggest takeaway from this show will inevitably be "this is what the prequels should have been all along." but yeah, we're kinda going in circles now. Well, sorta. Unfortunately for anyone going with that now-tired mantra, this show can't remotely get near the completed race circuit of the prequels. The prequels aren't just a fait accompli. They're set in a different time period and deal with completely different issues. This series starts with a battered and broken Obi-Wan who has already been hiding out on Tatooine for a whole decade with an Empire gradually tightening its grip in the background. If anything, this series, in terms of its philosophical orientation and basic premise, is going to be an odd blend of "The Last Jedi" and "The Rise Of Skywalker", in that they're aiming to show a famous Jedi who has fallen on his backside and become a shell of his former self as organised evil rises around him, while also committing to portray his gradual and inevitable resurrection and renewed commitment to the Jedi path. It could all come off as seriously contrived, repetitive, dull, and annoying. The big spanner in the works here is not Obi-Wan, but Anakin/Vader. How the latter is integrated into the show will probably be the true test, or true reflection, of how seriously the shows weighs the prequels against the originals. In "Rogue One", we got a little glimpse of Ani in his bacta chamber on Mustafar, but the rest of it was basically OT Vader -- and a distractingly shiny one who was in all of two scenes. I do wonder if we're really going to see a great deal of Anakn/Vader here. It kinda feels like they're pulling a bait-and-switch scam and it'll mostly be about Obi-Wan or the Inquisitors (or Reva). Which, by the way, wouldn't necessarily be bad. Ewan makes a strong good-guy lead and it would be neat to have a new villain in Star Wars with some depth to her -- and being played by a black woman (and relative unknown). In fact, if Vader ends up being more of the star and Reva the token, that would just be more insulting Disney tripe, along with the way Rose was sidelined in TROS. Let's hope this series avoids some of the fallacies we've been assaulted with thus far. |
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Post by Ingram on May 18, 2022 6:52:09 GMT
Sentimentalism over story. I'm not sure how you derive that value. It's a radical, yet eminently sensible, way of approaching their relationship in light of the complexities thrown up by the PT. Padme literally loses the will to live because of Anakin's crimes, and her final words to Obi-Wan are that there's still good in him. This might just shake Obi-Wan's conscience a tad, especially after he laments failing Anakin on Mustafar. Moreover, Obi-Wan is left with a ray of hope when Yoda tells him that Qui-Gon has returned from the Netherworld of the Force and that it's possible to communicate with him. And it's Qui-Gon himself who is supposedly now an avatar of compassion -- compassion, Lucas tells us through Qui-Gon, is the answer to the dark. So why wouldn't Anakin's awful fate as Darth Vader play profoundly on Obi-Wan's mind? If anything, the issue here is that this material is quite psychologically weighty for Star Wars, especially for someone who isn't George Lucas to dare to pursue. I stand by it.
Sometimes drama is best stark, where not all endearing relationships are enhanced by being deconstructed down to their last moving parts. The simple truth of it is, Ben Kenobi has no love for Vader by the time they meet up on the Death Star, and vice versa. Their dismissal of one another is, I'm gonna say it, absolute. They're strangers, emotionally, drawn together only by unfinished business bigger than either one of them. I always felt such cold finality is what made the transition from PT to OT so hard hitting. Whatever brotherly intent left between them was buried on Mustafar, and the cold about-face revealed an episode later drives home a bitter yet necessary facet of the Skywalker saga in that some things come full circle, some things don't. Padme for instance is never given proper closure, she never shares in the rise of her children nor the spiritual resolutions by OT's end. It's sad, but in turn effective. Her tragedy only goes so far as to haunt our OT heroes: "I have no memory of my mother. I never knew her." I slice of that defines the tragedy between Anakin and Obi-Wan as well, as a thing that isn't packaged and wrapped for audiences with a bow of empathy. If the two find peace then it's only for audiences to entertain by the closing scene of Episode VI -- curtains, end credits -- in the netherworld beyond courtesy of Luke's quest and, to that extent, I always appreciated how the OT picked up pieces only where it could via Luke's 'snake-eyes' convictions. For the entirety of the story that plays on screen throughout the trilogy, Kenobi and Vader truly are scorched earth to one another.
Now, you could say that the purpose or reigning feature of this new series taking place some decade prior is to writ teledrama precisely where that sibling love was severed forever. I ask, is it worth it? Didn't Lucas already bring down the house, and with the grandest of theater, that was the conflict between Obi-Wan and Anakin amid the climax of Episode III? I can imagine well-enough that there were indeed some sleepless nights for Obi-Wan in those first years secluded on Tatooine, and I prefer to keep it that way. Is the ellipsis between Episodes III and IV so little a thing as to be cast aside in favor of, what, more is more? Simply because it can be done, because Disney is willing to flip the bill? Because: whatever gets us more Star Wars content?
For me, no. It feels trivial. I could be proven wrong. Wrong as pineapple pizza. To date, however, I stand by it: this feels like cheaper, water cooler, streaming service sentimentalism over the value of story discipline—structure, placement, proportions, balance.
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on May 18, 2022 10:54:19 GMT
To be clear, this is just as much OT worship as it is prequel nostalgia. If anything, it's likely to be the biggest course correction to the prequels since The Force Awakens. Keep your eyes on TFN. Unless Disney royally fucks up (like with the ST), the biggest takeaway from this show will inevitably be "this is what the prequels should have been all along." but yeah, we're kinda going in circles now.
OT Worship? Have you been paying any attention to the promotional campaign? They've been essentially saying this series is a sequel to the Prequel Trilogy, taking the greatest inspiration from it.
You're perfectly entitled to be disinterested in this project, but make sure your argument makes some sense first.
Oh, really? I sure don't recall you being like this in the TROS thread. Sudden change of heart, eh?
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on May 18, 2022 12:05:57 GMT
Ingram Fair enough, but some of us feel differently. Some of us believe it may well compliment the PT in the same way TCW already does, a George Lucas project it must be said (Dave Filoni did great, but people are forgetting the Maker's key role).
Whether we like the show or not, we will make sure to keep the threads of the Lucas board separate from anything new it introduces or re-interprets, if that's any consolation. Compartmentalisation will be upheld even stronger. |
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Post by eljedicolombiano on May 18, 2022 12:29:54 GMT
To add to what Ingram said, there’s the looming question of why Obi Wan would risk facing Vader- his mission depends on staying hidden and keeping Luke safe. Of course, we have to see how the series handles it, but considering their track record, especially with how poorly they handled the OT cast, I am very cautious of not getting emotionally invested. Surely whatever hope Obi Wan has of maybe saving Anakin cannot take precedence over Luke.
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Post by stampidhd280pro on May 18, 2022 12:31:22 GMT
To be clear, this is just as much OT worship as it is prequel nostalgia. If anything, it's likely to be the biggest course correction to the prequels since The Force Awakens. Keep your eyes on TFN. Unless Disney royally fucks up (like with the ST), the biggest takeaway from this show will inevitably be "this is what the prequels should have been all along." but yeah, we're kinda going in circles now.
OT Worship? Have you been paying any attention to the promotional campaign? They've been essentially saying this series is a sequel to the Prequel Trilogy, taking the greatest inspiration from it.
You're perfectly entitled to be disinterested in this project, but make sure your argument makes some sense first.
Oh, really? I sure don't recall you being like this in the TROS thread. Sudden change of heart, eh?
That was over two years ago, btw. And my observations about the movie are still true, even if I don't care to rewatch it as much as I thought I would. When all three movies became available to watch at home, the big picture started to settle in. TFA is still the dullest and impossible for me to sit through, and by the time I get to TROS, there's just not much story left to look forward to, even if the movie itself is fun. At the time, there were brand new stylistic things to appreciate in TROS, and I was hoping the rhyme-loving prequel lovers would be having some kind of substantive discussion about them. But, well, you know. I will be watching all six hours or so of Obi-Wan as it comes out, and I'm open to enjoying it despite my trepidations. Have you watched TROS yet? |
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on May 18, 2022 17:53:14 GMT
Hopefully not stepping on any toes here, but I thought these new promotional videos were awesome so I'll post them:
That first one gave me chills from all the prequel nostalgia. I like how they presented each clip from a film with the full title including the episode number. Disney has often marketed the films without the episode numbers, so it's nice to see them respect George's vision. All the positivity and appreciation for his work is nice. And in the second one Hayden is the man! He's really professional and a good speaker. It's so cool to see him get all this time in the spotlight and to have the complex character that is Anakin/Vader finally getting appreciated. This has truly been a PT fan's dream come true.
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Post by smittysgelato on May 18, 2022 18:55:15 GMT
To add to what Ingram said, there’s the looming question of why Obi Wan would risk facing Vader- his mission depends on staying hidden and keeping Luke safe. Of course, we have to see how the series handles it, but considering their track record, especially with how poorly they handled the OT cast, I am very cautious of not getting emotionally invested. Surely whatever hope Obi Wan has of maybe saving Anakin cannot take precedence over Luke. For me, I think his confrontation with Vader will need to be framed as necessary to protect Luke. That is, the Inquisitors and Vader are closing in on Obi-Wan so he will need to leave Tatooine for a time to draw them away from Luke. |
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Post by Ingram on May 18, 2022 19:18:43 GMT
Ingram Fair enough, but some of us feel differently. Some of us believe it may well compliment the PT in the same way TCW already does, a George Lucas project it must be said (Dave Filoni did great, but people are forgetting the Maker's key role). I go by track records over belief, and Disney +, alone, has yet to evince for me anything lastingly beyond meh. But I also hold to a kind of emergence-proposition that something truly heightened can come into being even amidst an average of known quantities; after all, I do favor Rogue One ...even if only as a fandom accessory. My best hope lies in the series' potential for weaving into the general storyline of the Inquisition something inspired and inventive, and maybe just a little bit unexpected. I recognize it's already a part of TCW but there just might be rich soil in live-action Star Wars for an historical/literary 'inquisitor' archetype.
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Post by smittysgelato on May 18, 2022 19:22:07 GMT
I officially forgive Ewan for everything negative he has ever said if he is indeed serious about bringing Jar Jar back.
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