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Batman
Jun 28, 2022 15:39:04 GMT
Post by Seeker of the Whills on Jun 28, 2022 15:39:04 GMT
I just bought the Tim Burton duology (my favorite cinematic iteration of the character) 4K Steelbook editions, which are quite awesome, so I was compelled to make a thread for the Dark Knight himself. The Zack Snyder trilogy thread kind of touched on Batman already, who is my favorite fictional character and shares the top spot for my favorite franchise with Star Wars. What are your favorite Batman movies, shows, comics, games, etc.? What is your preferred version and understanding of the character? How do you prefer your Batman, with a strong "One rule" or without? Who is the best Joker?
I used to be a big Nolan guy (for you), but more recently came to resent the "realistic" approach thanks to The Batman (2022), and realized that Batman best works in his own insular gothic world. I started to embrace the Burton films, and the same happened with the games. Arkham Asylum is the best of the Arkham batch for me now. I have to admit, The Batman (2022) was the first movie I ever walked out of. As a huge Batman fan, it was a big blow for me. I would be interested to hear from anyone who has seen it what your reaction to the movie was.
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Jun 28, 2022 17:03:27 GMT
Yeah, like with The Hobbit and The Last Jedi, The Batman was a film where I had to ask myself, "how much longer are we going to be in here?" All three are very stylised, to their credit, they're by no means dull films, but they don't pack enough punch, they're too drawn out for me.
I adore the Nolan trilogy. The Dark Knight came out in a very pivotal part of my life, having a massive impact on me, and I'll never forget it. In more recent times, however, I'm finding I enjoy Batman Begins a lot more. And that's not because it's an origins story like the more recently acclaimed Joker either, its that I love all the characters and themes it expresses. Liam Neeson is a joy to watch, and Katie Holmes is mesmerising.
The Dark Knight Rises shot itself in the foot with its awkwardly masked villain, Bane, while Catwoman is a clumsy character, who seems out of place. I think it's a descent film, but its nowhere near the level of Nolan's previous two films. The ending is cool.
I was quite startled some years ago when I saw The Dark Knight was nominated on Twitter for some great right-wing film list. It really made me wonder what they were going to do with The Batman, given how much US politics had dramatically changed since 2008. Concepts like the vigilante and crime-fighting were now tossed out and regarded with suspicion as conservative themes, could you get something more toxic? Also, where once TDK was edgy, and provocative on release, its realism and darker tone had since been aped by a whole swath of wannabe action flicks, devoid of any real innovation of their own, making so much of it passé. I guess it wasn't any surprise then that they would try to subvert the genre and start prying Bruce Wayne on his privileged background. It felt like the film was written during the heat of all those political demonstrations in the US.
In Star Wars we have a very similarly privileged character called Leia Organa. One wonders if they'll ever peer into her upbringing, and make her feel uncomfortable about it? It's a striking contrast to Luke's more humble origins. Or I guess we won't, really, because female characters need to get a pass here, right? Noble women are still more oppressed than peasant farm boys*
Cryogenic will be able to speak better on this than I will, but it's my understanding that Padmé is from a middle class (or upper middle class) background, and gets elected as Naboo ruler at a very young age. Whilst her status dwarves what Anakin grew up with, it still doesn't compare to the entirely spoon-fed life her daughter will enjoy. Leia literally is from royalty, the Waynes of her planet, and grows up in a palace. I think its more analogous to say Britain's Kate Middleton vs her children.
* further reading: AnakinFan83 from TFN
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Post by stampidhd280pro on Jun 28, 2022 19:55:57 GMT
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Jun 29, 2022 14:41:33 GMT
How would you rank the Batman films? For me it would be:
1. Batman 89 2. The Dark Knight 3. Batman Begins 4. The Dark Knight Rises 5. Batman Returns 6. Batman v Superman 7. Batman 66 8. Batman Forever 9. Batman & Robin 10. The Batman
Yes, The Batman dead last, even behind the Schumacher films. I may get into more detail about why I absolutely loathe what I saw of The Batman, but that would be quite the rant.
My favorite moment from any of the films is Alfred's fantasy from TDKR. Michael Caine is simply phenomenal as Alfred. And I relate to Bruce who says that "There is nothing out there for me," because I have sometimes felt the same way. We all fall into apathy sometimes, and I think Bruce in the first act of TDKR portrays that well.
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Jun 29, 2022 16:09:14 GMT
I'm not a fan of Barman vs Superman. I think you summed up my reasoning when you mentioned:
The whole superhero teaming-up thing is anaemic to my idea of what a film should be about. It's too many cooks in the kitchen, it's let's do this for the sake of it, it's vain. This is one of the major reasons why I stay away from Marvel, which revels in a quantity over quality philosophy. The Star Wars equivalent would be fitting Darth Maul and Vader into a movie. The studio people who green-lit the film didn't care about the integrity of the stories, they were high on all the money Nolan had made them.
Batman works for me because it leans more sci-fi than fantasy: it's a wealthy vigilante with high-tech weapons, who fights crime in an interesting, modern day metropolis. Marvel, on the other hand, operates on the jarring juxtaposition that is incredible superpowers inside a credible city, with try-hard humour. Batman attempts to stylise it's incarnation of New York, while Marvel does not, it would rather demystify it's use of New York or wherever, as if that might make the superhuman powers more easy to stomach, when its achieves the opposite affect.
Star Wars succeeds precisely because it doesn't pretend to be set in our real world. We've known about "A long time ago, in a Galaxy, far, far away." since the very first moments of the original film. We quickly allow ourselves to suspend disbelieve, as we also do in LOTR.
With Marvel we're constantly suspending our disbelieve and then told, oh there's no need, they speak so much like us, there's even the familiar US flag and government. We're switching so much, our fuses start to malfunction. It awkwardly tries to place itself in the middle, between fantasy and science fiction, and it's just a bizarre, indecisive mess. To my mind, you choose one and you pour your heart into that.
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Post by Ingram on Jun 29, 2022 20:02:29 GMT
For live-action I've split the following into three tiers: my personal favorites, that which I find mildly diverting and that which I scarcely even bother entertaining these days.
10. Batman & Robin
09. The Batman
08. Batman Begins
07. The Dark Knight
06. The Dark Knight Rises
05. Batman Forever
04. Batman Returns
03. Justice League
02. Batman v Superman
01. Batman
Nolan's trilogy is ambitious in scope and finitely stirring with a sense of blunt force momentum but also sexless, humorless and awkwardly edited to a degree that tips the scale out of its favor. TDKR is maybe the only one I will revisit once in a blue moon. Batman & Robin ranks last for certain objective reasons but, honestly, I might rewatch it over The Batman if only for its train-wreck camp factor; the latter and most recent Batman movie is a textbook emperor with no clothes.
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Jun 29, 2022 22:31:09 GMT
I must give all the 90s Batman films a re-watch before I judge them on a list. I haven't seen them in like 10+ years.
I love the character design of this guy:
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Batman
Jun 30, 2022 10:00:42 GMT
Post by Seeker of the Whills on Jun 30, 2022 10:00:42 GMT
For live-action I've split the following into three tiers: my personal favorites, that which I find mildly diverting and that which I scarcely even bother entertaining these days.
10. Batman & Robin
09. The Batman
08. Batman Begins
07. The Dark Knight
06. The Dark Knight Rises
05. Batman Forever
04. Batman Returns
03. Justice League
02. Batman v Superman
01. Batman
Nolan's trilogy is ambitious in scope and finitely stirring with a sense of blunt force momentum but also sexless, humorless and awkwardly edited to a degree that tips the scale out of its favor. TDKR is maybe the only one I will revisit once in a blue moon. Batman & Robin ranks last for certain objective reasons but, honestly, I might rewatch it over The Batman if only for its train-wreck camp factor; the latter and most recent Batman movie is a textbook emperor with no clothes.
Really, you rank the Zack Snyder films that high? Very interesting, especially that you include Justice League (I assume you surely mean the Snyder cut), which Batman isn't such a big part of. I think the character has a great arc from BvS to JL where he rediscovers his faith, but he doesn't really get to shine on his own in JL. One thing I missed from the Whedon cut was the introduction scene of Batman taking down the criminal and the parademon. The Nolan films do feel a bit sterile like most of his films, though Batman Begins the least so. It has more of a grimy and worldly quality about it, with Bruce traveling the world and the Narrows being a big part of the story, while the other two are confined to the sleek sections of Gotham. And I think it isn't totally sexless, because Bruce and Rachel have more of a thing going on in that one. I think Nolan sprinkles small humorous bits at appropriate times. His Batman was different in its "realistic" approach, so it couldn't lend itself to the sort of irreverent fun of the Burton films. The awkward editing criticism I've heard before, and there definitely is some of that, but I think the movies are so well paced and have such great propulsion, especially The Dark Knight, that you don't really pay attention to it. You're just there for the ride. Now, The Batman might be the most soulless and hollow film I've ever seen (partly). I have no idea what that movie was about. It felt like a Nolan fanboy thought what made those films good was the edginess, so he decided to amp up the edginess to 11 and that's it. There was no unique voice, no vision. It was just "Let's redo 'realistic' and edgy Batman, but this time so edgy it will put an eye out." The film starts with Ave Maria playing like it's some fancy artistic choice, when that song is totally played out and the whole thing came off like a parody. The opening monologue with its cringe-worthy lines like "Two years of nights have turned me into a nocturnal animal" came off like they were written by a 15 year old. Riddler was absolutely terrible. Again, it's like they watched The Dark Knight and thought, "Joker isn't violent and craaaazy enough, let's make a Riddler who's a sadistic torturer for some reason." I got 45 minutes into the film before I left the theater, shortly after Riddler's first facetime call and nauseating torture trap. "Hey, remember how Joker would announce his crimes on TV? Well now we have a Riddler for the zoomer audience who livestreams and shit." So stupid. I had originally planned to watch the movie on HBO Max as soon as it was released there, but just couldn't. I only watched the unintentionally funny Riddler scenes, like the interrogation scene which was a hilariously bad rip off of the TDK scene. I read many comments on the internet that said people laughed at their showing of the movie. I left long before the Riddler screaming scene, but a woman who sat a couple seats away from me had her hands over her mouth in shock at how bad the movie was. I must give all the 90s Batman films a re-watch before I judge them on a list. I haven't seen them in like 10+ years. I love the character design of this guy: I too really like the look of Penguin and Danny DeVito is fantastic and completely unrecognisable in the role. He completely disappeared into it. Michelle Pfeiffer is also great as Catwoman. Burton's Gotham is my favorite rendition of the city and its cast of characters, and I appreciate the totality of his vision. However, I think Batman Returns is too much of a Tim Burton movie at the expense of being a Batman movie. The Batman parts are awesome, but he isn't in the film that much. Though it might have the coolest moment of any Batman film, which is this: There's nothing that effortlessly cool and 'Batman' in the Nolan films. While I like the Nolan films, his Batman feels like he's constantly in the process of becoming Batman. He never reaches his full potential, probably due to the constricting nature of the "realistic" parameters they set for those movies. Burton's Batman just is, with no explanations required. He fits right into the gothic world Burton created, as a whole and complete being.
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Batman
Apr 13, 2023 15:15:03 GMT
Post by Seeker of the Whills on Apr 13, 2023 15:15:03 GMT
I have come to the conclusion that Zack Snyder's vision of Batman is my favorite, and Ben Affleck's portrayal of the character by far the most stirring, so I would revise my ranking of the films thusly:
1. Batman v Superman 2. Batman 89 3. The Dark Knight 4. The Dark Knight Rises 5. Batman Begins 6. Batman Returns 7. Zack Snyder's Justice League 8. Batman 66 9. Batman & Robin 10. Batman Forever 11. The Batman
Batman v Superman is a double-edged sword for me, though. The Superman portion of the movie I have some gripes with, but the Batman portion I think is by far the best portrayal of Batman in live-action. Snyder injected new life and an edge into a character that had never really been the highlight of his own movies. He was always upstaged by the more flamboyant villains. But Affleck gave the character such gravitas, charisma and weight, even when he didn't have a full movie all to himself, that he's the star attraction of the show. I'm still mad we didn't get his solo movie instead of the, excuse me, absolute abortion of a movie that was Matt Reeves' The Batman. That one still stings.
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