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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Jun 3, 2022 16:28:20 GMT
 I noticed in the Trailer thread that some of you liked Man of Steel, so I decided to make a thread for Snyder's trio of DC films. I think it's surprising how artistic and singularly "Snyder" these films are, especially since they are part of a mega-franchise opposite the very studio focused Marvel movies. I have some thoughts/visual parallels for Batman v Superman in mind. I think this film features the most complex and interesting portrayal of the Batman/Bruce Wayne character. The world upside down:   The fall and the near fall:   The scene of young Bruce falling to the batcave, which is also seen in Batman Begins, has its origins in The Dark Knight Returns, but the specific version the films took inspiration from is the one from "The Man Who Falls." It features Batman pondering how things and people "fall", similar to the voice over lines at the beginning of BvS: "But things fall. Things on Earth."   NO!:   The mark of the bat:   The bat is portrayed as a monster inside Bruce in this film. He was marked by the bat, and taken to the sky (where Lex says demons come from) as a child. He shares his pain with criminals, literally branding them with the mark of the bat. This I think is consistent with the Frank Miller-ish take Snyder was going for.   That trilogy trailer makes this comparison:   So this Batman killed, not only in his nightmares, but in reality. Nolan made a big deal about Batman not killing, but even his Batman killed Two-Face when a life was on the line. I used to be a big proponent of the "No kill rule", but I have come to side with Snyder's view that that wouldn't work in the "real world" that he tried to set his movies in. My favorite Batman, which is Burton's, also killed on occasion, as did the original comics Batman by Bill Finger and Bob Kane. Batman should abhor killing, but be flexible enough to do it if absolutely necessary.  This post was mostly about Batman, but there's a lot of nice symbolism in these films. To anyone who has seen the films, what do you think of them? |
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Post by Alexrd on Jun 3, 2022 17:45:43 GMT
I think the trilogy is a solid 8/10.
They are all great movies but suffer from certain aspects that I think could have easily been avoided.
Man of Steel could have been a perfect movie if not for that last act that leads an already exausted viewer to another non-stop action sequence between Superman and Zod. It felt like they were trying to overcompensate for the lack of Superman fights in the other movies.
I have no problem with Superman being forced to kill, but in Man of Steel the situation that was presented was contrived. It didn't come off naturally. They wanted it, so they walked backwards and built a scene to justify it, instead of the other way around.
Batman v Superman is my least favourite of the trilogy, and I think it's the one where the influence of the studio is felt the most. The story is not as straightforward as in Man of Steel, I'd say is needlessly convoluted. More of a commentary of society on Superman than a Superman story. But it is what it is. Like Man of Steel, the last act with Doomsday felt shoved in. And unlike Man of Steel, the soundtrack is pretty forgettable. The Ultimate Edition is a great improvement over the theatrical cut.
Snyder's Justice League is great, starting with its existence alone which is a miracle. I would have cut some scenes that feel very self-indulgent, but I'm more forgiving of it after what Snyder went through. He deserved to overindulge himself with this cut. It has a surprising good pacing for its length, great sequences and like Man of Steel it feels grand and epic. Mythic even. Junkie XL showed that he can make memorable music, although the Superman theme that was present in one of the early trailers pre-2017 was missed.
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Jun 6, 2022 7:28:58 GMT
I think the trilogy is a solid 8/10. They are all great movies but suffer from certain aspects that I think could have easily been avoided. Man of Steel could have been a perfect movie if not for that last act that leads an already exausted viewer to another non-stop action sequence between Superman and Zod. It felt like they were trying to overcompensate for the lack of Superman fights in the other movies. I have no problem with Superman being forced to kill, but in Man of Steel the situation that was presented was contrived. It didn't come off naturally. They wanted it, so they walked backwards and built a scene to justify it, instead of the other way around. Batman v Superman is my least favourite of the trilogy, and I think it's the one where the influence of the studio is felt the most. The story is not as straightforward as in Man of Steel, I'd say is needlessly convoluted. More of a commentary of society on Superman than a Superman story. But it is what it is. Like Man of Steel, the last act with Doomsday felt shoved in. And unlike Man of Steel, the soundtrack is pretty forgettable. The Ultimate Edition is a great improvement over the theatrical cut. Snyder's Justice League is great, starting with its existence alone which is a miracle. I would have cut some scenes that feel very self-indulgent, but I'm more forgiving of it after what Snyder went through. He deserved to overindulge himself with this cut. It has a surprising good pacing for its length, great sequences and like Man of Steel it feels grand and epic. Mythic even. Junkie XL showed that he can make memorable music, although the Superman theme that was present in one of the early trailers pre-2017 was missed. I pretty much agree. I think Man of Steel is the best of them and nearly a perfect superhero film. I don't have a problem with the non-stop action at the end even though it is slightly exhausting, because it's suitably epic and a real barrage on the senses. I think it's kind of similar to the last acts of the prequels, where some people thought they dragged on for too long. But the very end in all the films is very cathartic after the huge battles, as it is in MoS. The only real problem I have with the end or indeed the whole film is Lois somehow arriving at the scene when Superman kills Zod, when she was seemingly far away. MoS is the film I have probably seen in theaters the most. I think I saw it around 4 times in theaters. Everything from the incredible cast to the music by Hans Zimmer is pitch perfect. Batman v Superman I had to wrestle with for a while. I initially liked it well enough, but later succumbed to the groupthink that it sucked. I have come to appreciate the film again. I still have some problems with it, like Luthor, and like you say it's needlessly convoluted, especially Luthor's plot. The studio interference can be seen in the clunky introducion of the Justice League members. Doomsday could have been studio mandated so they could have a big explosive battle at the end, or it could have come from Snyder himself, since, to be fair, he does like his explosions. Otherwise I hink it's a very good Batman/Superman movie. Snyder's Justice League is simply epic. I can't find a flaw in it. He reached LotR-levels of mythic with the Darkseid flashback. The music by Junkie XL is indeed great, and I especially love the main theme, which is so unabashedly superheroic. |
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Post by Alexrd on Jun 6, 2022 8:51:29 GMT
I pretty much agree. I think Man of Steel is the best of them and nearly a perfect superhero film. I don't have a problem with the non-stop action at the end even though it is slightly exhausting, because it's suitably epic and a real barrage on the senses. I think it's kind of similar to the last acts of the prequels, where some people thought they dragged on for too long. The issue is the pacing. We have the world engine fight, and the terraforming in Metropolis, and both sequences drawn-out for too long to the point that when it all ends I felt exhausted. But then there's another drawn-out fight and I felt numb to it. I get that the desire for a clash between Superman and Zod, but the story wasn't calling for it. But the very end in all the films is very cathartic after the huge battles, as it is in MoS. The only real problem I have with the end or indeed the whole film is Lois somehow arriving at the scene when Superman kills Zod, when she was seemingly far away. MoS is the film I have probably seen in theaters the most. I think I saw it around 4 times in theaters. Everything from the incredible cast to the music by Hans Zimmer is pitch perfect. I agree. The ending is great and so is the music. Snyder's Justice League is simply epic. I can't find a flaw in it. He reached LotR-levels of mythic with the Darkseid flashback. The music by Junkie XL is indeed great, and I especially love the main theme, which is so unabashedly superheroic. To me, this was the emotional surprise of the movie. Not just the scene but the music: "One of the best of the best." |
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Post by Darkslayer on Jun 13, 2022 4:44:58 GMT
Woah. Have I stumbled into a site that is positive toward BOTH of my favorite film trilogies?!
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Post by jppiper on Dec 16, 2022 19:19:26 GMT
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Post by smittysgelato on Dec 16, 2022 22:31:54 GMT
Man of Steel bores me to tears every time I watch it, but the other two are great.
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Post by jppiper on Dec 17, 2022 1:54:20 GMT
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Post by Ingram on Dec 17, 2022 11:40:50 GMT
Yes, Star Wars is reportedly going wholesale to Taika Waititi and the once, brief mythic Snyderverse has now gone to James Gunn.
Asshats.
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Post by smittysgelato on Dec 17, 2022 20:18:24 GMT
Snyder really did nail the Campbellian, mythic aspect with his Justice League. I'm kind of fine with it ending where it did though because Jared Leto's Joker was kind of insufferable.
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Post by Darkslayer on Dec 27, 2022 21:00:21 GMT
Haven't had nerd rage this bad since Episode IX, lol |
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Apr 12, 2023 14:15:37 GMT
Just a little resonance I noticed on my most recent rewatch of BvS and ZSJL.   Yeah, I prefer the version in Batman Begins where he's a lot gentler. Man of Steel bores me to tears every time I watch it, but the other two are great. MoS has one of the best openings in any movie, in my opinion. The Krypton opening is just exhilarating and I loved it every time I saw it in theaters (I think I saw the film 4-6 times in theaters), but after that the movie gets a bit quieter for a moment and doesn't pick up for me until the scout ship discovery. That interim is a little sluggish to get through sometimes, but I still love the movie. It's rewarding when you get to the end. |
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on Apr 15, 2023 13:12:24 GMT
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Post by smittysgelato on Apr 16, 2023 0:03:40 GMT
Cool observations Seeker. I always found the opening to Justice League to be a stroke of genius. Superman's death cry as a destabilizing event combined with the idea that the future is seeded in the present (absolutely fascinating). After all, death and life contain each other like the yin and yang.
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on May 15, 2023 10:15:24 GMT
Batman v Superman has a haunting, dream-like quality about it right from the beginning. We see Bruce's dream of the bats lifting him into the light, which he says is a "Beautiful lie." Initially, becoming Batman was his salvation. But as we later see, due to past trauma like Robin's death and now the Superman incident, the Bat has grown into a monster that rages inside of him. In the opening dream, Bruce falls over, and the world turns upside down for him. "That should be upside down," says Lex of the painting depicting angels and demons in battle in his study. Which is Batman? That's a question BvS asks, and the movie really tests his morality.    It's interesting that the women Batman rescues call him a devil.  Lex says "Devils don't come from hell beneath us, they come from the sky." As young Bruce is flown into the sky, we transition to present day, where Bruce descends from the sky in a helicopter.   Most interesting is probably the dream where a bat demon emerges from the grave, biting Bruce. A horrible nightmare that is a stark contrast to the helpful bats from the beginning.  |
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Post by smittysgelato on May 15, 2023 18:59:41 GMT
Yes, Lex's observation that Devils come from the sky gives us lots to play around with in terms of interpretation. It can refer to many things: his and Bruce's mistaken view of Superman, Lex is upper class, and therefore comes from the sky, making him a devil of that sort. Also, it sets up Darkseid, who is a devil from the sky (outer space).
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on May 15, 2023 19:33:01 GMT
You're right. Steppenwolf and Darkseid are the most direct "devils from the sky", but that whole theme of a world turned upside down and whether Superman and Batman are devils or angels themselves is ripe for potential interpretation. In the Knightmare, Superman has succumbed to Darkseid's power and commandeers an army of parademons. And Batman has forsaken his no kill rule, and started branding criminals, which is represented by a bat devil biting him in his dream. I think that's the most interesting aspect of the film, because in previous incarnations, both of the characters have been depicted as purely good. But BvS challenges the characters and their morality. I really like that line by the African general, "Men with power obey neither policy nor principle. No one is different. No one is neutral." I feel that really encapsulates what the movie tried to get across. In the world Snyder created, there is no such thing as being purely good all the time.
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Post by smittysgelato on May 15, 2023 20:12:08 GMT
Well, Batman struggling with the devil within has been a thing in previous iterations. In Batman Begins he is very tempted to get revenge on the man who killed his parents. Instead, he has to restrain the devil within and control it for nobler ends.
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Post by Seeker of the Whills on May 17, 2023 10:15:45 GMT
Yeah, there's that scene which I really like, but otherwise Batman is pretty much a paragon of virtue in those movies. I feel like Nolan's Batman is more of a symbol than a man. I liked that Snyder somewhat humanized the character. Bruce and Lex are two sides of the same coin, and there's a lot of parallels between them. Both go through a haze when they first come into contact with the Kryptonians.   |
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