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Post by Pyrogenic on Oct 8, 2019 18:20:34 GMT
Hello, everyone! It’s me, Pyrogenic. First post here...  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droiden.wikipedia.org/wiki/BotThe difference between a droid and a bot is much more than simply a name change. If one were to imagine the cinematic apparatus as a video game world, one would soon realize that interaction between oneself as a user or participant and said game world is at first somewhat mysterious and elusive. In Attack of the Clones, the conflict between the armies of clone troops and battle droids is synonymous with a prefabricated representation of those symbolic/imaginary battles between Star Wars fans in real life and on the World Wide Web, like on discussion forums such as these, and especially with that part of themselves as manifested in that simulated reality, like artificial doppelgangers. There is a basic mode of gameplay that one can engage any movie with, which is that of choosing where to move the cursor within the range of the particular movie’s playback/progress bar. It’s sort of a simplified version of, for example, Super Mario negotiating a level of the Mushroom Kingdom. More broadly, one can choose the location their avatar goes within the scope of the movie’s duration for just about any purpose one can contrive: interpretation, analysis, reading, listening for subliminal messages, Easter egg hunting, quoting, imagining variations, altering color or speed, meme-ing, basic enjoyment, replaying, testing for vulnerabilities, word gaming, gaining experience, discovering new perspectives, etc. It’s like the movie as a move-set, force field, or power range. Where the droid/bot distinction comes in is in the human/machine interfacing metaphor. If we are all sort of lifelessly, mechanically typing and clicking away as clones or physical droids at our computers on the Star Wars network, are there corresponding bots that autonomously “live” in that Internet-like ether of Star Wars as a complex system? Is it us interacting or is it an automated copy of us? When we have a lively debate with someone who doesn’t appreciate the Episodes we do, for example, are we fighting the person proper, or fighting their bot acting in proxy or substitute for them as a preexistent entity within the labyrinthine latticework complexities of the saga? Are we, and all we say, already “in there,” so to speak? Are the droids in Star Wars a metonymy/synonymy of the concept of an Internet or video game bot? Are we supposed to aim and fire our laser truths at these software agents, should we cooperate, or are we really a version of them ourselves? The real kicker, and the reason I’m bringing this topic up after it very suddenly and completely coalesced as a fairly solid “splinter in my mind,” is to open up the possibility of being able to actually find examples of these bots. What delineates a ghost in the machine? Is it a constellation of words? Is it a recognizable motif? Is it a similarity with reality? We can see the symbols of those droids/bots in those Star Wars scenes like words in a dictionary, but where are those missing definitions? What does each one stand for? Do we randomly plug in variables to figure it out? Or is this project much more philosophical and less experimental? The real gist of it would be: Can we play these movies as games in this facet, and if so, how? It’s like we’re always doing it, but never really understanding that we actually are. We know there are droids in Star Wars. But are there, META-BOTS? Lots to unpack, but I hope you enjoy! |
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Post by Alexrd on Oct 9, 2019 21:25:09 GMT
 P.S: Welcome. |
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Post by Pyrogenic on Oct 9, 2019 22:22:16 GMT
A mirror image! The confused cartoon Anakin picture is actually very similar to my face in immediate response to the confused cartoon Anakin picture as a response to my post.
P.S. Thank you!
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 10, 2019 18:40:59 GMT
A mirror image! The confused cartoon Anakin picture is actually very similar to my face in immediate response to the confused cartoon Anakin picture as a response to my post. P.S. Thank you! Salty! I mean... "Salt." Isn't Alex now meant to respond like that sarcastic B1 Battle Droid does to General Grievous snatching Anakin and Obi-Wan's confiscated sabers? "You're welcome." And isn't that also your hair colour, in the posted graphic, roughly speaking? Like the top band (skyline) of your posted screen capture! Dangerous and disturbing, this puzzle is... Oh, and what is Anakin seeing there, swirling around his head in a coplanar orbit? Are those starships? A ship... a cup... a ship... (Mace gives quizzical look)... a speeder. What is actually going on in Star Wars and in the World Engine (copyright "Man Of Steel") of cinema? Damned if I know. Hmmm. Posted. Posts, sticks, stations, staying, etc. "Stay at your stations." "Stick to your post and follow my orders." "Here, take this, and wait for orders." "Please, wait for me." "Join me... please." "Live free, don't join." "Don't center on your anxieties, Obi-Wan." "Ob-Wan, there's good in him. I know there's still..." "Huh, I should think that you Jedi would have more respect for the difference between knowledge, and huh-huh-huh, wisdom." "Someone wise." "Something inside me has always been there." "Yoda will always be with you." "Master Yoda." "Master Skywalker, there are too many of them." "There are too many." "Well, Artoo has been..." "Artoo, let him have it." "I will not let this Republic that has stood for a thousand years be split in two." "Built a thousand generations ago, to keep these, the original Jedi texts." "Now, stay here and keep out of trouble." "Stay in that cockpit." "Poe, get your head out of your cockpit." "Get out of my head." "Get all our forces down to that Resistance base." "Where is the Rebel base?" "You Rebel scum!" "Jedi scum!" "You Jedi are far too reckless." "You are reckless." "The Force is with you, young Skywalker, but you are not a Jedi yet." "Ah, Skywalker, missed you, have I." "Miss you, I will." "Mourn them, do not, miss them, do not." "Chancellor, if I may comment, I do not think the situation is..." "The situation has become much more complicated." Waterfall text. It's really tough to get a handle on what Star Wars and the cinema game actually are/is -- it's sort of tantamount to having the hubris to solve the so-called "hard problem of consciousness". Do we really "have everything we need"? Are we just missing the primer? Or is there much more going on? Are we hopelessly lost at sea? Trying to find a deeper truth while stuck in listless apathy, just going about our humdrum daily routines? Luke on the island... Anyway, this droid-bot duality thing is interesting. It almost reads to me, in my dull aesthetic brain, as the difference between the PT and the OT, or maybe the Lucas movies versus the Disney ones. I'm not sure what is going on. "Maz, what is happening?" "I'm so confused." Oh, right. I already did that part. Even that is a joke meme implanted into my head by a Star Wars YouTube video! Do a complicated gag, move on, and then momentarily reprise the gag and slap yourself down in a moment of "meta" awareness. Just to pull out one little scrap ("I'm scrap" -- agh!)... That's really freakin' cool! I wonder if more arcane aspects of language and grammar should be brought into the discussion, for example: www.thefreedictionary.com/Perfective-and-Imperfective-Aspect.htmen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfective_aspecten.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperfective_aspectWhat are you trying to define here? Some kind of new linguistic or epistemic system? Are there are any books or articles we should consult for a greater grounding in what you are trying to articulate and flesh out? There is definitely an intense core of built-in weirdness to the "Star Wars" cinematic interface. The weirdness seems -- subjectively speaking (!!) -- to begin piling up magnanimously in AOTC. Dex's aforelisted line to Obi-Wan. The deletion of Kamino from the Jedi Archives. Lama Su describing the alleged superiority of clones over droids to Obi-Wan. The droid factory. Padme's vexing rebuff to Anakin: "We live in a real world, come back to it." To which I respond, Kylo-like: "You do? Ah, you do." I forgot what I was going to say next. One of my clones must have said it for me. My connection to the cinematic interface got disrupted. And a communications disruption can mean only one thing... Interactivity, or one sort or another, is surely key. I think the idea is to be Jar Jar. You have to be willing to prattle about and to bash into things. It won't hurt. Much. But most are afraid to do it. They have slandered and bashed and traduced -- ritually banished -- the very animal spirit who holds the key (who *is* the key) to enlightenment. As a result, human beings will suffer for their arrant foolishness. The doors of perception will not be easily cleansed. |
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Post by Pyrogenic on Oct 10, 2019 21:02:18 GMT
Super-condensed version: It's all about finding the "YOU" in these movies...in BOT form, bot meaning "an autonomous program on a network (especially the Internet) that can interact with computer systems or users, especially one designed to respond or behave like a player in an adventure game." Kind of like all the really complain-y fan rhetoric (that can't handle consideration of anything remotely aesthetic) essentially being encapsulated by... www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE1Sq8Z5C3AThat's a bot of a bot of a bot. |
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Post by Alexrd on Oct 10, 2019 21:51:23 GMT
Super-condensed version: It's all about finding the "YOU" in these movies...in BOT form, bot meaning "an autonomous program on a network (especially the Internet) that can interact with computer systems or users, especially one designed to respond or behave like a player in an adventure game." Kind of like all the really complain-y fan rhetoric (that can't handle consideration of anything remotely aesthetic) essentially being encapsulated by... www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE1Sq8Z5C3AThat's a bot of a bot of a bot. You mean finding something from the movies that is an avatar of your takes/opinions? |
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Post by Pyrogenic on Oct 10, 2019 22:52:19 GMT
Alexrd... You might be the first person I've encountered anywhere online to summarize "my" obsessively sought concept so succinctly (no offense to Cryo intended  ). Well done! Yes, yes, yes. You get it. And then the next step would be to identify ^^^that^^^ and other aspects of *self* in others. And of course, it involves quotation as the "play" mechanism. I am impressed. Another way of expressing the art/life imitation symbiosis! And it's by no means limited to Star Wars, but hey. If someone says something in relation to Star Wars, the corresponding preexistent avatar of their opinion/take OUGHT to act like a deflector shield, IMHO. But it seems that this understanding gets lost in the shuffle or goes willfully unrecognized by much of the fandom. It's like, yeah, the movie already said that. |
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 10, 2019 23:08:39 GMT
Alexrd... You might be the first person I've encountered anywhere online to summarize "my" obsessively sought concept so succinctly (no offense to Cryo intended ). Well, Alex does have that knack... Are you looking for people to think thoughts that the movies haven't taken into account (i.e., have no response to), or is your system some kind of closed-off tautology? To quote you from a previous chat: Congratulations. You didn't even put a dent in it. A Harvey Dent! If these movies know everything we're going to think, say, and do, how are meant to penetrate the colossal shield? Can anyone access the Force around here? "That's impossible even for a computer." "But it's not impossible." |
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Post by Pyrogenic on Oct 10, 2019 23:33:40 GMT
Alexrd... You might be the first person I've encountered anywhere online to summarize "my" obsessively sought concept so succinctly (no offense to Cryo intended ). Well, Alex does have that knack... Are you looking for people to think thoughts that the movies haven't taken into account (i.e., have no response to), or is your system some kind of closed-off tautology? To quote you from a previous chat: Congratulations. You didn't even put a dent in it. A Harvey Dent! If these movies know everything we're going to think, say, and do, how are meant to penetrate the colossal shield? Can anyone access the Force around here? "That's impossible even for a computer." "But it's not impossible." Perhaps there is a mode or an angle or a medium of discourse that is capable of penetrating (understanding) the movie force field in a way that is not accounted for by the movie force field itself. That said, I've spent almost two decades more-or-less attempting such a feat, and it seems that the active quoted "intervention" or "interruption" INTO this Energy Screen through quotation is one's best bet to achieve it. Is this possible to demonstrate to others only through YouTube? Now, as a force field-inspired complex, my system is almost intended to be a closed-off tautology! Very monadic, very closed-off for the sake of signification security and being a "catch-all" for content. Like running a pen test, if you will. For example, the old "search for something on Google that you don't think has been said and see if you get a hit" is all fine and dandy, but combine that with interlinked, slightly differently worded versions that "GET IT," albeit indirectly, enough to register as having "GOT IT." What meaning can get through an infinitely meshed matrix of symbols and referents? I very consciously veer toward the automatically liminal stuff like cryptographic and steganographic messages in my often pareidolia-inspired thinking about this subject. My conclusion thus far is that a generic movie proper says practically everything that can be said about it. So what happens to the commentary?! Personalized avatars in cinematic cyberspace...but I think the point I'm getting at is that this concept is not common knowledge, or if it is, it's an open secret. Tautology as "repeating what has been said" isn't necessarily a fault, is it? That said, I would love to see someone say something about the movies that the movies cannot express. A true emulation? Or something totally different? "The media expresses that," applied to every quote aimed. |
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Post by Alexrd on Oct 11, 2019 8:32:43 GMT
Alexrd... You might be the first person I've encountered anywhere online to summarize "my" obsessively sought concept so succinctly (no offense to Cryo intended ). Well done! Yes, yes, yes. You get it. And then the next step would be to identify ^^^that^^^ and other aspects of *self* in others. And of course, it involves quotation as the "play" mechanism. I am impressed. Another way of expressing the art/life imitation symbiosis! But isn't that what memes are basically about? Using content from the movies as a representation of what you want to say about a certain subject? Even though it was only meant as a tongue-in-cheek reply to your esoteric/abstract "wall of text", wasn't my original post a small example of that? Sure, it wasn't from the movies but from Tartakovsky's micro-series, but still Star Wars. |
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Post by Pyrogenic on Oct 11, 2019 14:38:21 GMT
If a “meme” is etymologically “that which is imitated,” would it be more akin to the JANGO or the CLONES? “Meme” is normally almost defined out of existence since anything can be an imitation of something else. The real question is what cannot be imitated? “Meme” as the big, singular concept proper as opposed to its copies is more like it in my opinion. The meme is the star network hub and the copies are the nodes (and are not memes).
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Post by Subtext Mining on Oct 11, 2019 20:47:56 GMT
I think I get it, and you've covered the what and how - but as per my disposition, I am wondering, why? What's the purpose of this exercise/game? What's so important, what's that droid carrying?
The technical readouts to the cinematic apparatus? It's network hub?
Are we trying to obtain useful information & knowledge, or trying to destroy the cinematic apparatus? Or both? (if so, why?)
Are we trying to obtain insight and knowledge about ourselves? Of others? And to what purpose?
Is the cinematic universe like the collective unconscious and these droids are like archetypes and symbols? And the star network hub is like the source/transcendent unified meaning of it all?
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Post by Pyrogenic on Oct 11, 2019 21:24:46 GMT
I think I get it, and you've covered the what and how - but as per my disposition, I am wondering, why? What's the purpose of this exercise/game? What's so important, what's that droid carrying?The technical readouts to the cinematic apparatus? It's network hub? Are we trying to obtain useful information & knowledge, or trying to destroy the cinematic apparatus? Or both? (if so, why?) Are we trying to obtain insight and knowledge about ourselves? Of others? And to what purpose? Is the cinematic universe like the collective unconscious and these droids are like archetypes and symbols? And the star network hub is like the source/transcendent unified meaning of it all? You can't ask why about love...Why is each item emulating everything imitating? youtu.be/QmvSYHVhO80?t=207Imagine one person theoretically being able to quote every movie clip, then imagine every person theoretically being able to quote every movie clip, then imagine anything theoretically being able to quote any movie clip. Who is actually expressing each persona is seemingly, ridiculously anonymous to the point where everyone has effectively expressed everything, in principle...unless there's something about the quoted material that actually reveals specific identities. Not a traditional sense of authorship, is it? |
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 11, 2019 22:59:48 GMT
Is the cinematic universe like the collective unconscious and these droids are like archetypes and symbols? And the star network hub is like the source/transcendent unified meaning of it all? Ah! You reminded me here of the following quote: STAR WARS is not only a multivalent text but also a commodity produced by a highly distanced, specialized, and somewhat invisible and indiscernible source.www.ejumpcut.org/archive/onlinessays/JC30folder/ReturnJedi.html |
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Post by Subtext Mining on Oct 12, 2019 2:24:17 GMT
 So we're trying to reveal specific identities of the nodes, rather than the Indra's Net-ness about them? Find something about the movies that they can't express themselves? |
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 12, 2019 4:48:31 GMT
Here's a weird thing to think about:
What happens when you encounter one of these avatars/projections in the "real world"; especially if it's the Emperor?
I saw Ian McDiarmid in a play in 2008. I guess I discovered something before the characters in Star Wars did (and the rest of the audience). Palpatine lives!
So the "Kylo Ren" the other side of the cinema screen/force field already became aware -- even if he wasn't aware he was aware (but now I sorta am: "The Force Awakens") -- that "The Phantom Menace" behind everything can exist outside of everything and even astral-project into the physical realm.
I actually just had this revelation after skimming some Sequel Trilogy threads at that other place. I'm like, Holy Korriban, I knew all this, already! It was implanted there a long time ago (in a galaxy far, far away....). Only now are the seeds sprouting.
"Skywalker lives. The seed of the Jedi Order lives. As long as it does, hope lives in the galaxy."
-- Supreme Leader Snoke
"It’s a little hard to tell if the seed is the youngest part of the plant or the oldest, or mysteriously both at once."
-– Stephen Jenkinson
"The Initial Mystery that attends any journey is: how did the traveler reach his starting point in the first place?"
-- Louise Bogan
"If one is to understand The Great Mystery, one must study all its aspects, not just the dogmatic, narrow view of the Jedi."
-- Supreme Chancellor Palpatine
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Post by Alexrd on Oct 12, 2019 8:37:09 GMT
I feel like I need to be on death sticks to understand this thread, and to quote Padmé:
"That is something I cannot do."
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Post by Pyrogenic on Oct 12, 2019 14:34:55 GMT
“The supreme being quotes everything.”
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 12, 2019 17:07:14 GMT
I feel like I need to be on death sticks to understand this thread Life detaches. |
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Post by Alexrd on Oct 12, 2019 18:08:03 GMT
I feel like I need to be on death sticks to understand this thread Life detaches. And is rethinked at home. |
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). Well done! Yes, yes, yes. You get it. And then the next step would be to identify ^^^that^^^ and other aspects of *self* in others. And of course, it involves quotation as the "play" mechanism. I am impressed. Another way of expressing the art/life imitation symbiosis! And it's by no means limited to Star Wars, but hey. If someone says something in relation to Star Wars, the corresponding preexistent avatar of their opinion/take OUGHT to act like a deflector shield, IMHO. But it seems that this understanding gets lost in the shuffle or goes willfully unrecognized by much of the fandom. It's like, yeah, the movie already said that.