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Post by Cryogenic on Nov 4, 2021 22:35:35 GMT
Ingram Damn. Caught in the act for once. I just issued a revised version of my post with newly-discovered quotes from Mark Hamill. I wouldn't have bothered changing my post if I'd seen your reply. I'll read your reply now and reply again accordingly. EDIT: The rest of this discussion, which became increasingly TROS-dominated, now continues in the TROS thread.
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Post by Subtext Mining on Nov 5, 2021 13:33:20 GMT
Why do people blanche at Luke & Leia doing things like kissing before they know they're siblings. It makes it hilarious, or cringe-larious.
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Post by jppiper on Nov 5, 2021 17:13:26 GMT
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Post by Alexrd on Nov 5, 2021 18:37:44 GMT
it annoys me when people don't think it's Leia that Yoda was referring to - Obi-Wan Kenobi, Episode VI: Return of the Jedi |
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Post by jppiper on Nov 5, 2021 19:05:16 GMT
Alexrd did you see the fan made trailer with the BS ending?
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Post by Alexrd on Nov 5, 2021 21:57:10 GMT
No, I did not. I'll take your word for it.
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Post by Cryogenic on Nov 6, 2021 0:04:29 GMT
Why do people blanche at Luke & Leia doing things like kissing before they know they're siblings. It makes it hilarious, or cringe-larious. Laugh it up, fuzzball! My entirely learned contribution to that line of discussion. You're welcome. |
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Post by jppiper on Nov 6, 2021 1:15:51 GMT
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Post by Alexrd on Nov 6, 2021 14:23:36 GMT
I compare The Force Awakens with Jurassic World. Both released in 2015, both soft-reboots, trying to rehash the first movie. Both with the same dissonant and insulting, self-referential, self-deprecating style. Both tone-deaf, not taking the inherited story and setting seriously.
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Post by Cryogenic on Nov 6, 2021 14:44:27 GMT
I compare The Force Awakens with Jurassic World. Both released in 2015, both soft-reboots, trying to rehash the first movie. Both with the same dissonant and insulting, self-referential, self-deprecating style. Both tone-deaf, not taking the inherited story and setting seriously. But at least they were shot on film! |
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Post by smittysgelato on Nov 6, 2021 19:26:40 GMT
I compare The Force Awakens with Jurassic World. Both released in 2015, both soft-reboots, trying to rehash the first movie. Both with the same dissonant and insulting, self-referential, self-deprecating style. Both tone-deaf, not taking the inherited story and setting seriously. But at least they were shot on film! There's nothing like a bit of Cryogenic sauciness to make my day complete. |
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Post by Cryogenic on Nov 6, 2021 19:31:43 GMT
But at least they were shot on film! There's nothing like a bit of Cryogenic sauciness to make my day complete. Thank you, Smitty! You just made my day. |
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Post by Cryogenic on Nov 7, 2021 4:04:13 GMT
Why do people blanche at Luke & Leia doing things like kissing before they know they're siblings. It makes it hilarious, or cringe-larious. Laugh it up, fuzzball! My entirely learned contribution to that line of discussion. You're welcome.A slightly more serious response here: It shows that the characters are operating within a shroud of ignorance. ANH is a fairly monochromatic film (only the droids are really "in colour"), where character connections have yet to be articulated and the Jedi are fancied destroyed, as if the technocracy of the Empire is the new telos that everyone should put their faith in -- the libidinous architecture of the Force denied. In TESB, characters begin to move beyond their earlier ignorance, getting a deeper sense of things, culminating in Luke discovering that Vader is his father and making a metaphysical connection with Leia right after. ROTJ says: "There are more familial connections to be unravelled here." So we get the "twin sister" revelation and Vader himself discovering it only moments before his return to the light. Critically, Padme is also alluded to in Luke and Leia's discussion on Endor, and is even obliquely a part of Luke and Vader's discussion on Endor ("Obi-Wan once thought as you do"). These developments not only showed Star Wars flowering into a "soap opera", as Lucas termed it in his interview with Charlie Rose in 2015, but also provided critical monads for the subsequent trilogies. The father revelation in TESB helped incept the prequels, while the daughter/sister revelation in ROTJ was a seed intended for the sequels. It's wonderful how teasing and knowingly simplistic the original film is -- like the way the conference scene on the Death Star (aptly named) has a perfect follow-on in the climax. The grey-suited Imperial bureaucrats, so perfectly closed off to the wider reality of the Force and the mythic patterning of Star Wars -- while, in a clever stroke of visual irony, displaying their rank through the primal Force colours of red and blue -- are crimped in their own understanding and powers of perception: a point made rather starkly at the end of the film when Luke, at Obi-Wan’s avuncular urging, uses the Force to successfully destroy the very station in which they gathered to discuss crushing the rebels and believed was the tool to bring about that end. All three trilogies manage to work up to some big revelation in the final chapter, where the scales fall from the characters eyes (or, in Anakin's case, technologically descend upon and replace his natural vision), but perhaps none is as delicious as the Original Trilogy. There's an absurdist zest followed by warm, wholesome revelation that the other trilogies abandon for something else on their own terms. Which is all fine. But the OT strikes exactly the right tone: an action-comedy pivot that still remains drenched in fairy-tale overtones. Intimate and domesticated, yet with just the ideal amount of wide-eyed adventuresome, comic-book reverie. |
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Post by Cryogenic on Nov 7, 2021 4:40:24 GMT
is this the right place to put this? Probably. I bet that tweet disappears in time -- like pretty much every tweet out there. I just found out that a tweet I posted only a couple of months back is no longer accessible. The owner made their account private. Like, uh, okay, but why use Twitter in the first place? So take that as a word of warning; or just my way of framing my response as much ado about nothing. I do sorta like the idea that the Skywalkers (and other Jedi) are guiding Rey to strength and mastery in the Force. In the original climax to ROTJ, the ghosts of Obi-Wan and Yoda were directly helping Luke and interfering with Palpatine's attempts to destroy him and end the Jedi. Lucas must have thought this was a bit much (and maybe a tad distracting), so they were excluded from the shooting script and the finished film. However, you can argue that they are still there in some subliminal sense, not least because Obi-Wan tells Luke that Yoda will always be with him after his passing on Dagobah, and Luke sees Obi-Wan and Yoda, along with Anakin, on Endor. Lucas actually boasted back in 1975 to Alan Dean Foster: "I could write a whole movie just about the Force of Others". Well, he did write that movie, and it's called The Star Wars Saga. The Force of Others is basically the Force with a kind of will, similar to the way Qui-Gon describes the role of the midi-chlorians to Anakin in TPM. In fact, the Force of Others is the ultimate phantom menace, if you only pay attention to the "Bogan" side, instead of trusting in the light and calling upon the "Ashla". Indeed, back in the second draft of the original movie, Lucas has his main protagonist, then called Luke Starkiller, explain to his younger brothers that it was a being referred to as The Skywalker that came to know of the Force of Others and pass this awareness down to a select number of others. It is interesting that Lucas later gave his protagonist that mythical character's surname. In the third draft, Luke's explanation of the Force of Others now goes to Ben Kenobi, and his explanation is somewhat simplified by comparison. By the fourth draft -- which, in its revised form, became the shooting script -- the term has disappeared altogether. In reverse, this is a little like the trilogies: The OT really just deals with the Force, the PT touches on the Force of Others, and the ST re-names it to "the voices of the Jedi who came before", but the concept is rather viscerally in-play in certain moments, and via certain cinematic contraptions and devices the film employs to bind its characters together in surprisingly intimate and abstract ways. I use the word "viscerally" quite deliberately there. Back in that aforementioned third draft of the original film, Ben explains to Luke that a Jedi can feel the Force (alternately described in the exchange between Ben and Luke as the Force and the Force of Others, preparing the way for the fourth draft) as emanating from his or her stomach. This is interesting because this is where Darth Maul stabs and fatally wounds Qui-Gon (the mystical Jedi father figure who comes closest to describing the Force of Others) in Episode I. And heck, in Episode III, it's where the twins are held for much of the movie (and Padme's stomach remains round/protruding in her final scene on Naboo). Ideas never die in Star Wars. They just bide their time and hide in the subtext until they are ready to "be born". I say all of this as offering a different way of looking at things. Lucas never quite got to say everything he wanted with Star Wars (he expresses pretty much this sentiment in the Charlie Rose interview). But his earliest ideas -- or, more strongly: the things he wanted to say -- remain a vital, vibrant part of the complete film text. |
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Post by smittysgelato on Nov 7, 2021 17:30:43 GMT
What's interesting about that tweet is that it basically highlights how even Palpatine's bloodline is redeemed in the end.
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Post by jppiper on Nov 12, 2021 0:25:31 GMT
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Post by Cryogenic on Nov 12, 2021 1:01:29 GMT
Okay, so this seems to be the offending paragraph: Yep -- JJ really Made Star Wars Great Again!(tinge of sarcasm) Interesting. He's certainly entitled to his opinion, but honestly, the things he mentions are blatant fanbait. Han and Chewie back again? Whoopdeefuckingdoo. It takes more than that to impress me or evoke a feeling. I suppose he's coming at it from the position of a guy that is good with actors and makes warm films. I guess that sense of nostalgia and familiarity is something he finds agreeable. But also, saying "we had all the original cast back", despite the appeal of those people, is quite misleading. Harrison is back and looking good. And Chewie is sorta back. But Carrie isn't in TFA much, and Luke is just a silent guy in a hood turning round to face the camera in the last scene (as Mark Hamill quipped: "Less is more"). And Billy Dee Williams has only a small part in the last of the three sequel entries. If that's having the original cast back... okiedokie. If Lucas had done the film and the trilogy, we'd probably have seen them in a more proportionate way. And I'm not trying to diss anyone here. I think the final scene with Luke is moving. But that's because it has been appropriately built up and the music is stirring. And while a good coda, Luke should really have been in the movie more, as originally intended. Which highlights his other fallacy: JJ didn't do it. Lucas had already negotiated with the original actors before JJ was brought in. Still, he's probably just reaching for a comparison and being a bit simplistic about it, just to encapsulate his point. That said, I prefer James Cameron's much more, ah... lukewarm assessment: "A retrenchment to things you had seen before and characters you had seen before, and it took a few baby steps forward with new characters."
Mind you, dude... Those last few Terminator movies. And hey, at least it was shot on film! |
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Post by smittysgelato on Nov 12, 2021 1:04:23 GMT
Whenever I read someone like Chris Columbus say stuff like, "Star Wars really started to be great again," in regards to the Sequels I don't really get angry. I just sit there and think: "I just don't relate to these people at all." I'm glad I was born when I was. 1990. Right smack in between the OT and PT. That way I was old enough to be exposed to the OT first and be a fan of that, but not too old when the Prequels came out so that I wasn't too cynical. That way, I got to be a PT fanboy too. |
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Post by Cryogenic on Nov 12, 2021 1:07:11 GMT
Whenever I read someone like Chris Columbus say stuff like, "Star Wars really started to be great again," in regards to the Sequels I don't really get angry. I just sit there and think: "I just don't relate to these people at all." I'm glad I was born when I was. 1990. Right smack in between the OT and PT. That way I was old enough to be exposed to the OT first and be a fan of that, but not too old when the Prequels came out so that I wasn't too cynical. That way, I got to be a PT fanboy too. I was born in 1983. I really used to love "Home Alone" (1 and 2) and "Mrs. Doubtfire". I probably still do. |
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Post by jppiper on Nov 12, 2021 1:13:02 GMT
CryogenicsmittysgelatoCursed Child is TLJ of the Harry Potter Franchise no one wants to see that and when was the last time Chris Columbus Made a Good Movie? (My Mom Loves The first 2 Home Alones Christmas With the Kranks (Considered one of the Worst Christmas Films) and Gremlins (The Latter 2 He Wrote).
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