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Post by thephantomcalamari on Dec 8, 2020 21:30:41 GMT
I thought it might be nice to have a thread dedicated to discussion about these topics, especially in light of recent revelations. For my part, obviously, I think it's all a fascinating, beautiful metaphor for life and the complex relationships which sustain it. It's increased my interest in bacteriology and led me to the conclusion that Lucas may have been on to something more than a lot of people like to admit. For one thing, I was surprised to learn that bacteria can actually think, in a sense, using virtually the same mechanism as the neurons in our brains to communicate both with other bacteria and, potentially, with the cells of multicellular beings like ourselves: Bacteria are also known to be constantly swapping genes with each other to aid in the survival of their communities--and not just with bacteria of the same species, but even with bacteria belonging to other species which live in community with them! It is even possible that this bacterial gene swapping extends as far as the animal kingdom and, yes, even to us: Of course most of us on this site are at this point probably familiar with the endosymbiotic theory of the origin of mitochondria and chloroplasts, but it's fascinating to note even the possibility that such horizontal transfers of genes from bacteria could have influenced our evolution in other ways--that our bacterial symbionts could have indeed interfered with a sperm or egg cell of one of our ancestors and, more than once, created a more "powerful" being. Now, obviously, this is a far cry from bacteria actually being able to influence the universe in the deliberate, calculated, and fantastically dramatic way they do in the fictional Star Wars universe, but it's very interesting nevertheless! I think that as time goes on, we'll discover that bacteria are far more important to our sense of ourselves--as individuals, as a community, and as life-forms--than we ever knew. I think we'll find that bacteria are, in many ways, very close to being gods as our forebears have traditionally understood that word to mean, as this Medium article by a Sri Lankan writer named Indi Samarajiva so eloquently argues. Some choice excerpts: Great stuff! I think thoughts like these will become more and more common in the coming decades and centuries, as our scientific understanding of our world continues to grow and more traditional forms of spirituality undergo a natural evolution to incorporate these insights into their mythologies. George Lucas is truly a man ahead of his time.
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Post by darkspine10 on Dec 9, 2020 17:49:11 GMT
Hello, first post on this forum, though many of you may know me from the JCF I definitely agree that the Midichlorians make a strong metaphor for mitochondria, originally foreign bodies that became intrinsic parts of our cells and enhance life, allowing it to branch out with new sources of energy to adapt in multitudes of variety before unseen. It also makes a beautiful parallel to the rest of TPM, which features much thematic focus on symbiosis, pairing for mutual advantage. It's a literal microcosm of the film's overarching statements. The Jedi, paired with master and apprentice. The Naboo and Gungans fighting for one cause to save their home. The Sith, with their more parasitic dependence on one another, while always seeking to backstab their partners. So not only are Midichlorians a profound translation of a real world concept, making the lore of the force deeper, they also mesh very well with the themes and help propel TPM's goals as a movie. It's interesting how some accuse them of rendering the Force 'scientific' and demystified, when in fact it would seem that it's this movie, before the onset of the darkness of the wars to come, when the Jedi (or at least Qui-Gon as a representative) are most in tune with understanding the links between people, societies, and even their own bodies.
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Post by thephantomcalamari on Dec 11, 2020 16:12:28 GMT
Hello, first post on this forum, though many of you may know me from the JCF I definitely agree that the Midichlorians make a strong metaphor for mitochondria, originally foreign bodies that became intrinsic parts of our cells and enhance life, allowing it to branch out with new sources of energy to adapt in multitudes of variety before unseen. It also makes a beautiful parallel to the rest of TPM, which features much thematic focus on symbiosis, pairing for mutual advantage. It's a literal microcosm of the film's overarching statements. The Jedi, paired with master and apprentice. The Naboo and Gungans fighting for one cause to save their home. The Sith, with their more parasitic dependence on one another, while always seeking to backstab their partners. So not only are Midichlorians a profound translation of a real world concept, making the lore of the force deeper, they also mesh very well with the themes and help propel TPM's goals as a movie. It's interesting how some accuse them of rendering the Force 'scientific' and demystified, when in fact it would seem that it's this movie, before the onset of the darkness of the wars to come, when the Jedi (or at least Qui-Gon as a representative) are most in tune with understanding the links between people, societies, and even their own bodies Well-put! (And welcome!) Unfortunately, I've seen that even some defenders of the prequels (including LFL employees like Pablo Hidalgo) will now argue that the midi-chlorians are intended to be an illustration of the Jedi's decline--an indication that they have been reduced to viewing the Force in a mundane, clinical way rather than in a more spiritual manner. However, that is far from the case. Midi-chlorians are just one, equally valid facet of the complex tapestry that is the Force. As you say, it's a metaphor--just like the "energy field" concept is a metaphor for something that is ultimately beyond the grasp of any words to fully describe.
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Post by Alexrd on Dec 11, 2020 17:25:37 GMT
Unfortunately, I've seen that even some defenders of the prequels (including LFL employees like Pablo Hidalgo) will now argue that the midi-chlorians are intended to be an illustration of the Jedi's decline--an indication that they have been reduced to viewing the Force in a mundane, clinical way rather than in a more spiritual manner. However, that is far from the case. Midi-chlorians are just one, equally valid facet of the complex tapestry that is the Force. As you say, it's a metaphor--just like the "energy field" concept is a metaphor for something that is ultimately beyond the grasp of any words to fully describe. That is a great example of the broad misunderstanding of Star Wars. I'm of the opinion that in order to truly understand Star Wars and analyze it properly, one needs to understand George Lucas. And I don't mean (just) his biography, but his worldview. To George, biology and spirituality although distinct are interconnected. No character, in any of the six movies, reduces the Force exclusively to a biological or spiritual analysis. Both concepts are always present when the Force is addressed. The fans (both the fandom and those working on the franchise) are the ones who take their misunderstanding as if they are an established fact. And worse, they cast judgement on the characters based on that misunderstanding. The Jedi are one of the victims. As George says: "The Force is a metaphor for God, and God is essentially unknowable. But behind it is another metaphor, which fits so well into [The Phantom Menace] that I couldn’t resist it.
Midi-chlorians are the equivalent of mitochondria in living organisms and photosynthesis in plants - I simply combined them for easier consumption by the viewer. Mitochondria create the chemical energy that turns one cell into two cells.
I like to think that there is a unified reality to life and that it exists everywhere in the universe and that it controls things, but you can also control it.
That’s why I split it into the personal [living] Force and the cosmic Force. The personal Force is the energy field created by our cells interacting and doing things while we are alive. When we die, we lose our persona and our energy is assimilated into the cosmic Force.
If we have enough midi-chlorians in our body, we can have a certain amount of control over our personal Force and learn how to use it, like the Buddhist practices of being able to walk on hot coals. Some people can’t because they just don’t have as many midi-chlorians - that’s just genetics. So the more midi-chlorians we have, the more accessibility we have to the Force. So we have to be trained how to use it."
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Post by thephantomcalamari on Dec 14, 2020 4:21:29 GMT
Unfortunately, I've seen that even some defenders of the prequels (including LFL employees like Pablo Hidalgo) will now argue that the midi-chlorians are intended to be an illustration of the Jedi's decline--an indication that they have been reduced to viewing the Force in a mundane, clinical way rather than in a more spiritual manner. However, that is far from the case. Midi-chlorians are just one, equally valid facet of the complex tapestry that is the Force. As you say, it's a metaphor--just like the "energy field" concept is a metaphor for something that is ultimately beyond the grasp of any words to fully describe. That is a great example of the broad misunderstanding of Star Wars. I'm of the opinion that in order to truly understand Star Wars and analyze it properly, one needs to understand George Lucas. And I don't mean (just) his biography, but his worldview. To George, biology and spirituality although distinct are interconnected. No character, in any of the six movies, reduces the Force exclusively to a biological or spiritual analysis. Both concepts are always present when the Force is addressed. The fans (both the fandom and those working on the franchise) are the ones who take their misunderstanding as if they are an established fact. And worse, they cast judgement on the characters based on that misunderstanding. The Jedi are one of the victims. As George says: "The Force is a metaphor for God, and God is essentially unknowable. But behind it is another metaphor, which fits so well into [The Phantom Menace] that I couldn’t resist it.
Midi-chlorians are the equivalent of mitochondria in living organisms and photosynthesis in plants - I simply combined them for easier consumption by the viewer. Mitochondria create the chemical energy that turns one cell into two cells.
I like to think that there is a unified reality to life and that it exists everywhere in the universe and that it controls things, but you can also control it.
That’s why I split it into the personal [living] Force and the cosmic Force. The personal Force is the energy field created by our cells interacting and doing things while we are alive. When we die, we lose our persona and our energy is assimilated into the cosmic Force.
If we have enough midi-chlorians in our body, we can have a certain amount of control over our personal Force and learn how to use it, like the Buddhist practices of being able to walk on hot coals. Some people can’t because they just don’t have as many midi-chlorians - that’s just genetics. So the more midi-chlorians we have, the more accessibility we have to the Force. So we have to be trained how to use it."One defense of midi-chlorians that I've also come to see as misguided--and which I've been guilty of myself--is the talking point about how midi-chlorians aren't the Force itself, but are merely conduits for the Force. Now, on a certain level of course this is true. But I think it can also be misleading, because I think it's also true that midi-chlorians are the Force in a sense, just as the Whills are the Force in a sense, and just as the bonds of friendship exhibited by the characters in the films are, in a sense, the Force. It's just that the ultimate reality of the Force is totally ineffable, and so the only way we can perceive it is through these distillations which become progressively more comprehensible in terms of things that we understand, but which are really just lower-order manifestations of a much higher reality. So yes, midi-chlorians are the Force, because the Force is manifest in everything. But they're a form of the Force that is closer to our world of macroscopic biological forms than are the Whills who commune with them, and the Whills in turn are closer to our familiar world than is the energy field which they in turn commune with. Presumably, even the energy field has some relationship to some even higher manifestation that is fairly inscrutable to us, in the same way our real-world understanding of fields is complicated by things like quantum mechanics (a subject Lucas delved into with Indy 4). It's kind of like a game of telephone. We're mortal beings, and it's simply impossible for us to know the Force directly so long as that is true. Otherwise, we would not be mortal beings. I think Lucas, as someone who is now on record as not subscribing to any of the organized religions as a means for gaining a reliable picture of God, is acutely aware of these limitations, and they're reflected in his conception of the way beings deal with the Force. Many of us have a sense of a greater truth, of a higher order to reality, of a force which binds everything together, but none of us is really capable of knowing much of anything at all about what it really is. We can only get a sense, and some of us have a greater sense of it than others, and can get closer to it than others. But it remains elusive.
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Post by smittysgelato on Dec 14, 2020 5:44:44 GMT
I wonder if the accusation that midi-chlorians are a scientific explanation for the Force has to do with the separation of spirit and body under Cartesian dualism? Since midi-chlorians are a biological phenomenon, they are therefore seen as being of the body and therefore have nothing to do with spirituality.
However, if you aren't coming at midi-chlorians from a Cartesian angle, that separation between spirit and body disappears.
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Post by Ingram on Dec 14, 2020 9:41:38 GMT
1. Repeated here is the very statement I've maintained from day one: Midi-chlorians demystify the Force no more than the Theory of Evolution demystifies Life. Seriously, when was the last time anyone ever considered Life on Earth through the lens of Evolution and concluded "Welp, nothin' more to see here. That about sums it up." Naysayers go on about how Lucas' microscopic symbiants were just a pseudo new-age invention. No shit. What do you think the Force was, initially, other than just a contemporary, non-denominational, spiritualist idea invented to help tell a story. Which brings us to the crux of the matter...
2. Midi-chlorians help tell a story. No, really—in the simplest terms of workshop functionality. Put aside for a moment even the inspired esoteric analogies to mitochondria, metaphysics, cosmic duality etc., and note how the concept establishes a premise that in turn facilitates narrative causality, character motives, dramatic conflicts and even better crystallizes outcomes in the OT. It's just, it's a theme. The Force, Midi-chlorians ...they're themes. I don't know why people have such a hard time with this. A theme is a necessary component one fashions then puts to work in centering their narrative through-line with a dramatic arc that is coherent; here, a fantasy narrative where these Lucas-brained conceits provided the general notion of magic with an in-universe profile -- origin, method, limitation -- while also assigning it a degree of metaphorical meaning that informs the characters. What lures Anakin into Palpatine's web? Vague, last minute tacked-on references to the Dark Side as mere necromancy for it's own sake? No, it's something more. There's an idea by that point, the X, Ys and Zs long since established in Episode I, wherein the Force operates on a symbiotic level with the actual building blocks of life. It fundamentally doesn't matter how kooky this idea is relative to the Force once serving Star Wars as a mere faith system, but how it makes sense to the audience in story-structuring terms: they understand more clearly, or can better intuit, what is being proposed, the idea of Midi-chlorians being influenced through twisted fear and obsession to pervert the natural life and death process. It's not random, it's not abrupt. It's familiar. It makes sense; all the more dramatic, then, when that idea finally comes into play.
I tell ya, guys, Lucas was pretty damned good at this stuff. His stories are solid engines and his themes, in addition to being whimsical, also had clear trajectories.
Some years ago I was grocery shopping with this girl I was dating. She was on one end of the aisle with the shopping cart, I was on the other. She motioned to me that I grab some hot dog buns just to my right. But instead of just carrying them over to her, without taking a step, I Joe Montana'd the bag of eight. It's flight was a perfect arch, landing square in the center of her cart. I kid you not, I cheered out loud "My midi-chlorian count is off the hook, yo!" Total Prequel nerd moment in the middle of a public area. She shook her head with embarrassment, but she laughed.
I take Star Wars with me wherever I go.
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Post by thephantomcalamari on Dec 14, 2020 9:44:28 GMT
I wonder if the accusation that midi-chlorians are a scientific explanation for the Force has to do with the separation of spirit and body under Cartesian dualism? Since midi-chlorians are a biological phenomenon, they are therefore seen as being of the body and therefore have nothing to do with spirituality. However, if you aren't coming at midi-chlorians from a Cartesian angle, that separation between spirit and body disappears. I think that's very likely part of it. Another part of is the Christian conception of theistic dualism, wherein God is separate from his creation, having generated it ex nihilo, rather than having formed his creation from a part of himself. I think both these ideas contributed to the development of the concept which Stephen Jay Gould called "non-overlapping magisteria," wherein there's a fundamental separation between science and religion. We're a culture shaped by various forms of dualism which place a hard distinction between the spiritual and the physical. I don't really subscribe to that myself. Without meaning to be inflammatory, it just seems like a convenient way of avoiding having to deal with the fact that, on the one hand, Jesus Christ almost certainly didn't literally rise from the dead, while on the other hand evolution by natural selection almost certainly is true (these are just my own opinions!). I mean unless you're speaking in metaphor, either these things actually happened or they didn't*. You can't foist some arbitrary separation on truth claims about the world we live in. I think there is certainly a higher order (or truth or principle or force) to the universe which we can't easily perceive, something which you can call God if you wish. And I think that if there is, there is no fundamental distinction between that God and the world which we can investigate with science. It's all part of the same thing. And to the extent that there may be something that is, even in principle, beyond the reach of science to investigate, then it is something about which we could not, even in theory, have any knowledge at all, so long as we are the types of beings that we are. I've personally found that many of the Eastern religions, and the more mystical interpretations of the Western religions, tend to be more in accord with this way of thinking. But again, these are just my own opinions and musings. I certainly don't mean for this to turn into a rancorous religious debate, but when discussing matters as deep as these, one tends to run into thorny controversies sooner or later! And I don't mean to imply that anyone's beliefs are ridiculous. I mean, more and more these days I feel myself leaning towards some form of panpsychism or idealism as the resolution to the hard problem of consciousness, so I'm not one to mock anyone's beliefs for their perceived weirdness. *(As far as our commonly agreed upon framework for the perception of material reality is concerned, otherwise this statement would be incompatible with my idealist sympathies)
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Post by Alexrd on Dec 14, 2020 12:46:25 GMT
Even in Christianity (and other Abrahamic religions), God is connected to its creation and vice versa. God created the world and everything in it. Man was created in God's image. Man's actions affect and are reflected in the afterlife.
Yes, there's still a distinction between the physical and the spiritual, but that's also true in George's mythology.
One of the differences though is that while connected, people don't have power over God, and in Star Wars they have power over the Force. But only a component of it: the living Force. The cosmic Force doesn't work that way. It's more spiritual, accessible through meditation. It's what allows the perception of destiny, the future and the will of the Force. If anything, I'd say that this is the part of the cosmology that merges the Buddhist and Christian influences.
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Post by thephantomcalamari on Dec 15, 2020 21:52:14 GMT
Even in Christianity (and other Abrahamic religions), God is connected to its creation and vice versa. God created the world and everything in it. Man was created in God's image. Man's actions affect and are reflected in the afterlife. Yes, but Creation is still of a different substance than God. That's not true, for instance, in many schools of Hinduism. That's a meaningful philosophical difference. Is there really, though? Yes, Yoda says we are "luminous beings," not "crude matter." But even non-dualist Hindus could agree with that statement, because to them the physical world is maya, an illusion created by our limited perceptions--our inability to process the true spiritual reality. However, that does not mean there is a physical world and a separate spiritual world. It means there is one spiritual world, and the physical world we perceive is simply not real. This could be the case in Star Wars. It's, perhaps intentionally, left open to interpretation. It is a harmonization of sorts, but the mere fact that we can't exercise much control over the Cosmic Force doesn't necessarily imply that it's of a fundamentally different substance. In fact, I think it's clear that it is not, as the Living Force we are composed of is said to flow into the Cosmic Force. I think the analogous relationship between the midi-chlorians and the Whills is suggestive of something--they are both bacterial in origin, and I think it could be fairly speculated that midi-chlorians were in fact once Whills themselves, before becoming symbionts with our single-celled ancestors and facilitating the evolution of multicellular life. It just seems to me that there's a unified reality that's merely being reflected back to us at increasing levels of magnification. Even the relationship between Jedi master and Jedi apprentice suggests such a unity--the Jedi master gives a part of themselves to their student so that they may learn and grow, and eventually the student becomes the master and takes on their own student, in an eternal cycle. (The Sith master/apprentice relationship mirrors this as well, but in a perverse way.)
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Post by Alexrd on Dec 16, 2020 11:34:48 GMT
It is a harmonization of sorts, but the mere fact that we can't exercise much control over the Cosmic Force doesn't necessarily imply that it's of a fundamentally different substance. In fact, I think it's clear that it is not, as the Living Force we are composed of is said to flow into the Cosmic Force. I guess that depends on what we mean by "different substance". The cosmic Force is more the spiritual aspect of the Force, which is distinct from the biological aspect. I think my point is that the material and spiritual substances/realities are different but still connected. Not just in the religions mentioned but also in the Star Wars cosmology. Of course, each religion will (and does) differ in the way they are connected and how that connection works, but the connection exists all the same. We are more than our biological reality, and there's a path to something beyond.
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Post by thephantomcalamari on Dec 18, 2020 15:30:48 GMT
Now this is funny. Found this in an old Lucas interview from 1997: Never let it be said that Lucas's preoccupation with microbes doesn't run deep.
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Post by Alexrd on Dec 18, 2020 16:51:55 GMT
I never read that interview and the rest of its content is fascinating. I completely agree with Lucas regarding the issue of personal image and having ownership over it. And it's even more relevant nowadays with the whole deepfake phenomenon. People find it funny now, but there will be a price to pay down the line and people will only realize it when it's too late.
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Post by Subtext Mining on Oct 6, 2021 8:30:38 GMT
I've been wondering... going by this, which came first, the Living Force or the Cosmic Force?
Or was it the Midichlorians?
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Post by Ingram on Oct 6, 2021 10:04:39 GMT
I've been wondering... going by this, which came first, the Living Force or the Cosmic Force? Or was it the Midichlorians? Wait... there's animated Star Wars?!
Anyways, I reckon the Living Force, by logic, since the everyday origin of the Force is predicated on a symbiosis between physical lifeforms. All energy is a product of dynamics. The Cosmic Force was the bigger picture that followed, I guess.
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 6, 2021 10:52:11 GMT
I've been wondering... going by this, which came first, the Living Force or the Cosmic Force? Or was it the Midichlorians? Wait... there's animated Star Wars?! Anyways, I reckon the Living Force, by logic, since the everyday origin of the Force is predicated on a symbiosis between physical lifeforms. All energy is a product of dynamics. The Cosmic Force was the bigger picture that followed, I guess. Well, empirically speaking (from a reductionist or logical point of view), the universe came first, and life followed. At least, at present, that's how we think it proceeded. 'Course, the whole universe could be "alive" and/or "intelligent" in some sense (e.g., pantheism / panentheism / pansychism), not to mention cyclical, and/or part of some infinite multiverse or eternal inflation scenario. And who really gets to say what is "alive" (or "living") and what is inert (or "dead")? We probably don't really have the faintest clue what consciousness is or how far it extends.
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Post by Ingram on Oct 6, 2021 10:54:00 GMT
Wait... there's animated Star Wars?! Anyways, I reckon the Living Force, by logic, since the everyday origin of the Force is predicated on a symbiosis between physical lifeforms. All energy is a product of dynamics. The Cosmic Force was the bigger picture that followed, I guess. Well, empirically speaking (from a reductionist or logical point of view), the universe came first, and life followed. At least, at present, that's how we think it proceeded. 'Course, the whole universe could be "alive" and/or "intelligent" in some sense (e.g., pantheism / panentheism / pansychism), not to mention cyclical, and/or part of some infinite multiverse or eternal inflation scenario. And who really gets to say what is "alive" (or "living") and what is inert (or "dead")? We probably don't really have the faintest clue what consciousness is or how far it extends.
This is why we can't have nice things, Cryo.
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 6, 2021 11:58:01 GMT
Well, empirically speaking (from a reductionist or logical point of view), the universe came first, and life followed. At least, at present, that's how we think it proceeded. 'Course, the whole universe could be "alive" and/or "intelligent" in some sense (e.g., pantheism / panentheism / pansychism), not to mention cyclical, and/or part of some infinite multiverse or eternal inflation scenario. And who really gets to say what is "alive" (or "living") and what is inert (or "dead")? We probably don't really have the faintest clue what consciousness is or how far it extends. This is why we can't have nice things, Cryo.
LOL, nah. That was the Catholic Church when it decided to burn Giordano Bruno at the stake in 1600 for, among other heresies, proposing that the stars were other suns with their own planetary systems (which has recently led onto the exciting field of exoplanetology), as well as speculating that these systems might harbour life of their own (a vastly growing complementary field today known as astrobiology). Some people are just way ahead of their time. Star Wars itself is partly indebted to Bruno. It also owes a debt to Giovanni Virginio Schiaparelli who, in 1877, one hundred years before the release of ANH, mapped many features of Mars with some choice terminology that led to some creative confusion (or epic flights of fancy) a few decades later. As this NASA entry describes it: mars.nasa.gov/allaboutmars/mystique/history/1800/Sounds like Star Wars to me... Anyway, Schiaparelli's "canali" term caused the following to happen: www.nasa.gov/audience/forstudents/postsecondary/features/F_Canali_and_First_Martians.htmlPoor ol' Percival was likely fooled by the eyepiece he was using -- he was perceiving biology with technology, but it was his own biological "networks" he was seeing: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percival_LowellA fuller explanation: web.archive.org/web/20090221175545/http://www.skyandtelescope.com/news/3306251.html?page=1&c=yFrom that bizarre confluence of error and wishful thinking, we got Star Wars and a whole lot else. Lowell may have been too imaginative, and the Catholic Church not open-minded enough, but the search for life elsewhere and trying to understand our own origins continues. And like Star Wars itself, it all begins with a dream -- the dream to think big. Incidentally, an early work of science-fiction was published in 1608 by Johannes Kepler (he of elliptical orbits and the three laws of planetary motion). It was called "Somnium" (or "The Dream"): en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somnium_(novel)Going back to Lowell for just a moment, one can see that it was perhaps the 19th Century that most forged Star Wars -- not only because of burgeoning interest in Mars, but it being a time of great technological advancement (photography and sound recording were both invented/discovered in the 19th Century). The building of the Suez Canal was mentioned above, but as Carl Sagan notes in "Cosmos", in his chapter on Mars, there were in fact several great engineering projects of similar magnitude around the same time that likely intensified the belief that there were similar technological marvels on Mars: Is Star Wars itself, and all the steps Lucas took to make it, not itself (or themselves) a great engineering marvel? Lucas has also said he is Victorian in many of his sensibilities and basically a man out of time. So, to me, these historical resonances are intriguing. Moreover, in order to build it, you have to first imagine it. It is fascinating that we are both encouraged and hindered in our exploration of the cosmos, and ourselves, by the technological manifestations and psychological mores and assumptions of the day. Artistic and philosophic speculation are molded by a vast array of external sociological vectors. It's also a bit interesting that both Luke and Anakin maneuver through ravines / trenches / canals in their opening installments. Luke blows up the Death Star in his X-Wing (pursued by his father), Anakin wins the Boonta Eve Podrace in a slender, proto "X-Wing" of his own making (pursued by Sebulba). Both being impressive cinematic spectacles for their time -- the latter positively rippling in Victorian-era "Look at me!" architectural/grand public attraction/civil engineering flamboyance. Thus, the past is not dead -- it is very much alive and ongoing. Something eternal seems to exist at the root of Star Wars and all human endeavour.
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Post by Alexrd on Oct 6, 2021 16:22:28 GMT
I've been wondering... going by this, which came first, the Living Force or the Cosmic Force? I'd say the cosmic Force. The living Force is what closes the cycle. In other words, it returns to "the source". The source that deals with destiny and purpose.
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Post by Cryogenic on Oct 6, 2021 18:06:07 GMT
I've been wondering... going by this, which came first, the Living Force or the Cosmic Force? I'd say the cosmic Force. The living Force is what closes the cycle. In other words, it returns to "the source". The source that deals with destiny and purpose. To add to the recent George Lucas quotes you supplied in Reply #3, there's also this explanation from GL in "The Making Of The Phantom Menace": Just a further note here: The term "Living Force" was first spoken on-screen in the opening moments of Episode I. Conversely, the term "Cosmic Force" has never been uttered in a saga movie. However, both were in-play -- in some conceptual sense -- early on: starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Cosmic_ForceThe entry further states: starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Cosmic_Force/LegendsLucas initially based the Jedi on the legendary samurai, likely influenced from watching Akira Kurosawa movies in college -- a key influence in shaping the visuals and plot of the original film. However, in the second draft of the original movie, Lucas introduced a more esoteric and superheroic aspect to the Jedi, likely due to the pulp lustre of E.E. "Doc" Smith and his superpowered "Lensmen" characters: an elite group of warrior-cops with telepathic abilities, who were tasked with galactic peacekeeping duties. As Steven Hart explains: www.salon.com/2002/04/10/lucas_5/Hart then adds: It is intriguing that, when Qui-Gon describes the midi-chlorians to Anakin on the landing platform on Coruscant, shortly before they venture back to an occupied Naboo, he wraps up the lesson on symbiosis, which first began as a lecture by Obi-Wan to Boss Nass on Naboo, by telling Anakin (and, by extension, the audience): QUI-GON: “Always remember: Your focus determines your reality.”In contrast, the "Living Force" was never directly named in any of Lucas' draft screenplays. However, when characters say to one another, "May the Force be with you", they are essentially invoking it: starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Living_ForceI think I would have to agree that "the source" is ultimately more important or more encompassing. But, at the same time, the source cannot be understood without a compassion and sensitivity for life itself.
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