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Post by tonyg on Jun 18, 2019 20:47:34 GMT
This is a central theme of the whole Saga, however in PT is shown how series of wrong choices by different people lead to the tragic result of the end of Episode 3.
This thread doesn't have the purpose to prove that Anakin has no guilt for what he has done because the others also made wrong choices, all the opposite. PT doesn't have such purpose either but it explains how exactly this happened: how the triumph of the Sith was possible, how the Empire was possible. The Republic, respectively the Jedi Order first fell from inside then they were defeated from outside and this has to do with the problem of choice.
As Anakin wrong (and some right) choices are more or less obvious in the movies, here the main topic would be the less discussed choices of the other characters.
The choices of the Jedi Order leaders
Here have in mind mostly Mace Windu and Yoda. Some of their choices, while seeming logical at the moment, lead to some negative consequences.
One of the crucial scenes of Episode 2 represents such moment. It looked like not so significant choice but is all the opposite. It is the moment when Yoda and Mace learn about the clone army. Then Mace is convinced that they should admit (to the Senate) that their abilities to feel the Force diminished. Yoda opposes to this with more practical reasons: that the Order will lose its positions (for a relatively insignificant fact). While Yoda motives seem reasonable, this choice made the Jedi accept the clone Army and enter in the trap of the clone wars in the end.
In Ep.3 the choice which Mace made to prevent the attack against the Jedi Order also leads to wrong results: first , only 3 Jedi masters go to arrest the Chancellor and in the final fight Mace decides to kill him. While someone would point that indeed the Chancellor has his power over the Courts and the Senate and putting him under arrest is useless, what would happen if Mace indeed could kill the Chancellor? The Jedi Order would be in the position of usurper of the legal power because in that moment already the Jedi has not so much useful moves in the chessboard. They already have accepted to become a military formation and in this hypothetic situation would take the power by force which would lead again to chaos and destruction with the inevitable civil war. Of course, this hypothetical situation never happened as Anakin intervened in the scene, but my point is that in that moment the Order had made series of choices that put t in the corner from where it was almost impossible to come back. In a way, then was almost irreversibly late for the right choice and thee was place only for wrong ones.
The choices against Vader
To be late to do the right choice is another leitmotif of Ep.3 and it can be seen in the choice of Yoda and Obi Wan against the Sith. Some would point out that Yoda and Obi Wan shouldn’t split but in this case it was highly improbable for the both Jedi to survive both battles and defeat both Sith (not to mention that they would not have the advantage of surprise and would give to the survived Sith the chance to regroup the army and so on). The choice they made was obviously wrong: Obi Wan went to kill his best friend which is morally wrong in a million ways. But the strongest argument is the result of all this: from the duel of Mustafar was born Vader in the ways we know him of the original trilogy and the consequences of Yoda and Emperor’s fight are even worse: they destroyed the main pillar of the Republic: the Senate chamber, the symbol of the Republic itself. If this was the right choice it would never end in such disaster: personal (in Mustafar) and social (in Coruscant). Of course, is obvious that if they did the opposite which looked morally more acceptable (as Obi Wan suggested that he must go to kill the Emperor), the result would be even worse as was obvious the Emperor would survive and Obi Wan would be dead. Of course, in long term, what they did was in end successful as they survive to help Luke and most important, Anakin survived (in a way) but in that moment they again were in position that every choice of theirs was wrong. Actually there was one person that made the right choice about Vader and that was Padme. She went to Mustafar with the purpose to save Anakin, not to kill him and she paid with her life for this decision. However she was the only one who refused to act in the name of the “greater good” and cared to save the one she loved.
The choices of the clones and Order 66
Now this choice is shown in a very subtle way in Episode 3. At first sight it looked as the clones acted as there are no other options, only is not that at all. The clones made the choice of the soldier, i.e. to follow the Army hierarchy against the choice of the human which would be to spare the rebel traitors (i.e. the Jedi). Again here some would argue that clones are not exactly humans as they were mere live tools bred for war which would lead to another topic to discuss: how the Republic and the Jedi Order accepted (i.e. had chosen) such kind of Army that should fight against machines. But this dilemma: to be soldier or to be human does exist even in the real world armies (with real people).
While what is Order 66 is not directly explained in the movie, it should be clarified that every army in the real world has its own defense mechanisms against military rebellion or even coup. The mechanism is simple and relies on one of the military pillars: the hierarchy. So if the soldier receives an order that contradicts another, generally the soldier should follow the order of those who are higher in the hierarchy. And there is no person higher in the hierarchy than the Supreme Chancellor who is also the Army’s high leader. Also, Order 66 is not something random, obviously as it has special number is coded hypothetical situation that has its procedure and the clone commanders (who are the only one who knew the procedure) executed it. No simple soldier initiated the execution of the order as obviously they were not informed about it. This is another defense mechanism used in the real world armies: the mechanism of the restricted information. Only people of peculiar ranks are informed about such emergency procedures. From all seen in the movie, the order should treat high treason by the part of the generals (which are the Jedi) against the Supreme leader (the chancellor). This procedure however, could fail exactly for the human factor: in this case the Jedi fight side but side and obviously saved clone’s lives more than once. While in the movie such choices of the clones were not shown (all the clones shown had chosen to be soldiers and to follow the procedures) the opportunity exists and is treated in additional material (as Luceno’s book The rise of Darth Vader). The movie let the opportunity for survived Jedi open and the same for clones who didn’t exactly followed the procedures. Speaking of this, I think the TV show failed in this aspect showing the clones to act as they have no choice and respectively diminished the heroism of those who didn’t follow Order 66 to something that everyone could do, only is not that at all. To stand against the procedures i the army is like to choose against all odds.
Of course, these are not the only interesting topics of choice to discuss but it is a good way to start such discussion.
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Post by Subtext Mining on Jul 19, 2019 16:44:20 GMT
Yes, choice and autonomy is what it all comes down to in life. In fact, in SW it goes all the way down to The Force, and how It left the direction the galaxy would go in up to Anakin. And of course Luke played an equal part in it all, when faced with the choice of following his Masters' ideas or his own heart.
Moreover, in the pressure of the moment, Luke also had to choose whether or not to go down the dark path to try to defeat Vader & The Emperor, or stand with his principles; even if it meant losing his friends, the Rebellion and his own life.
These problems of dilemmatic choices faced by the protagonists is something Lucas wove more an more into the SW saga, beginning with Luke after he sees his friends being tortured, and with Lando and his situation.
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Post by Subtext Mining on Jul 31, 2019 2:05:47 GMT
Touching back on The Clone Wars cartoon and the Clones, there is an arc that does good justice to the Clones and their agency of free personal choice based solely upon their own morals and honor amidst orders they feel aren't right; the Umbara arc. In it, Master Pong Krell temporarily takes over as general of Skywalker's 501st Legion as the Republic attempts to take the capitol of Umbara.  Krell proceeds to push the 501st into a number of death traps and suicide missions, even against the Clones better judgment. However, they justify the illogical commands with the imperative to follow orders. Though at one point, when ordered not to take out a vital CIS supply ship in a crucial battle, a few of the Clones decide to disobey Krell in the interest of succeeding in the greater mission of clearing a path for Kenobi's unit, and taking the capitol. And with some ingenuity and self-sacrifice end up successfully knocking it out. But instead of a hero's welcome, Krell demands they be executed for their "insubordinate" act of disobeying orders. Some of the Clones believe they must follow through with the execution as ordered, while some do not think it's right and want to find a solution. Later it is revealed that Master Krell has abandoned the Jedi way, and in hopes of impressing Count Dooku he is purposefully sabotaging the Republic's efforts in the Battle of Umbara and in the greater war, while inflicting as much wanton horror as possible upon the Clones. Now, on the spot, and with no means of external communication, they face the dilemmatic decision of how to deal with the dangerous threat of a rogue Jedi Master who has become a traitor and a slaughterer of Clone troopers.  |
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Post by Alexrd on Aug 12, 2019 10:46:13 GMT
The choices of the Jedi Order leaders Here have in mind mostly Mace Windu and Yoda. Some of their choices, while seeming logical at the moment, lead to some negative consequences. One of the crucial scenes of Episode 2 represents such moment. It looked like not so significant choice but is all the opposite. It is the moment when Yoda and Mace learn about the clone army. Then Mace is convinced that they should admit (to the Senate) that their abilities to feel the Force diminished. Yoda opposes to this with more practical reasons: that the Order will lose its positions (for a relatively insignificant fact). While Yoda motives seem reasonable, this choice made the Jedi accept the clone Army and enter in the trap of the clone wars in the end. A couple of notes on this: a) Yoda was not concerned about the Order losing any positions. Yoda was concerned that the enemies would take advantage of the Jedi's inability of foresight for their own malevolent purposes. But had they revealed the truth to the senate, it would only accelerate the creation of the army for the Republic. The pieces were already set by that point. b) the Jedi didn't accept the clone army. This is one of the major misconceptions I'm seeing more and more in fandom. The Jedi have no hold over the clone army, it wasn't theirs, it was never theirs, it wasn't (and never was) up to them to decide wether to take it or not. The army was created for the Republic, and it was up to the Republic to take it and use it. Which is what happens in AOTC. The whole issue is wether or not the Republic should create an army. And once discovered that there was a clone army available and made for the Republic, it was still up to the Republic to accept it and use it. Which was what the senate voted for by giving emergency powers to Palpatine and thus give him full authority to do so. In Ep.3 the choice which Mace made to prevent the attack against the Jedi Order also leads to wrong results: first , only 3 Jedi masters go to arrest the Chancellor and in the final fight Mace decides to kill him. While someone would point that indeed the Chancellor has his power over the Courts and the Senate and putting him under arrest is useless, what would happen if Mace indeed could kill the Chancellor? The Jedi Order would be in the position of usurper of the legal power because in that moment already the Jedi has not so much useful moves in the chessboard. They already have accepted to become a military formation and in this hypothetic situation would take the power by force which would lead again to chaos and destruction with the inevitable civil war. Of course, this hypothetical situation never happened as Anakin intervened in the scene, but my point is that in that moment the Order had made series of choices that put t in the corner from where it was almost impossible to come back. In a way, then was almost irreversibly late for the right choice and thee was place only for wrong ones. I don't think there would be any fallback on the Jedi Order. But I do believe that Mace would be willing to be arrested and tried for his actions. Wether he would be punished or cleared is up to debate. After all, he went there to arrest Palpatine for huge crimes that he commited, and Palpatine not only resisted arrest (twice!) but also murdered three Jedi (and tried to do the same with Mace). The dilemma with Mace (and the point of the scene) is more of a moral one than a legal one. The choices against Vader To be late to do the right choice is another leitmotif of Ep.3 and it can be seen in the choice of Yoda and Obi Wan against the Sith. Some would point out that Yoda and Obi Wan shouldn’t split but in this case it was highly improbable for the both Jedi to survive both battles and defeat both Sith (not to mention that they would not have the advantage of surprise and would give to the survived Sith the chance to regroup the army and so on). The choice they made was obviously wrong: Obi Wan went to kill his best friend which is morally wrong in a million ways. I disagree. Obi-Wan didn't go kill his best friend because there was no friend anymore. Anakin betrayed their friendship, trust, and basically everything by that point. He was a mass murderer and Obi-Wan went there to do his duty as the Jedi that he is. And to do that, he followed the Jedi way. He let go of his attachment and emotions to do what needed to be done. But the strongest argument is the result of all this: from the duel of Mustafar was born Vader in the ways we know him of the original trilogy and the consequences of Yoda and Emperor’s fight are even worse: they destroyed the main pillar of the Republic: the Senate chamber, the symbol of the Republic itself. That's not a strong argument but a fallacy. Hindsight bias. What they decided to do was the most logical and reasonable path. The Sith needed to be faced at the same time otherwise the one that wasn't being attacked would sense what was going on and protect himself, thus preventing any chance of the Jedi prevailing. If this was the right choice it would never end in such disaster: personal (in Mustafar) and social (in Coruscant). Of course, is obvious that if they did the opposite which looked morally more acceptable (as Obi Wan suggested that he must go to kill the Emperor), the result would be even worse as was obvious the Emperor would survive and Obi Wan would be dead. To have Obi-Wan face Sidious and Yoda face Anakin is not any more morally acceptable than what ended up happening. But yes, the consequences would have been much worse because Obi-Wan would undoubtedly fail. So by that very fact their decision was right. That they didn't manage to succeed doesn't make it less right. The two aren't mutually exclusive. |
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Post by Subtext Mining on Aug 22, 2019 14:47:57 GMT
It's captivating how Anakin & Padme's love story parallels that of the Jedi Order's in in a poetic syncopation. Almost simultaneously they come to a realization and then decide to keep it amongst themselves. And in living these lies of theirs, they then create conditions and put themselves in positions that work to unravel them. Ultimately, they then come together in a confluence and a perfect storm which plays largely into the disaster we see in Revenge of the Sith. Compromises, forced decisions, good intentions, painting one's self into a corner: the human condition. I'd also like to bring up Jar Jar's choice in volunteering to propose emergency powers be granted to the Chancellor. It seemed like the right thing to do, and we the viewers may know that all the pieces were in place one way or the other, but look at the consequences. The immediate consequences were that it helped save Obi-Wan, Anakin, Padmé and some of the Jedi's lives, but look at the long term.  Truly wonderful the mind of a child is. But leave it to Palpatine to take advantage of that. This, in combination with Shmi's death, is when the innocence, beauty and femininity starts to drain from the galaxy/films. At least the scene is filled with humor. "Dellow felegates..." |
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Post by tonyg on Aug 28, 2019 18:15:11 GMT
Yes, Jar Jar choice in AOTC is a bit similar to Padme's choice in TPM: to propose vote for non confidence for Valorum. She does that trying to change the things for her people and in this situation it looks like her only option. She know that is not a good option as she is betryaing their greatest supporter in the Senate but the other option is even worse: the people of Naboo are suffering and dying and the Senate is doig nothing. im lomg term this lead to Palpatine ascend to Chancellor's status but in TPM it looks like the better option.
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Post by Subtext Mining on Aug 31, 2019 3:47:56 GMT
And of course there's the Jedi Council's decision to give Anakin the off-record assignment to spy on the Chancellor. It was highly unethical, treasonous actually, but it was a time of war and they were growing leary of Palpatine for numerous reasons, so it seemed to be a legitimate move. And to make matters worse, they had his friend Obi-Wan do the asking. For Anakin, this created a slippery slope of distrust with the council. Which Sidious uses to drive a wedge between them, and furthermore between Anakin and his concepts of good & bad. Into which he could instill the promise of the unnatural power to stop death.  Which he then in turn uses to establish his protective insurance policy while maneuvering Anakin into allegiance to him. |
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Post by tonyg on Aug 31, 2019 21:24:16 GMT
Yes, and also they again made the same mistake: they accepted the rules drawn by Sidious: we accept you in this Council but... No matter what but is they accepted what Palpatine did. Even more, they accepted it with a very let's say it, doubtful motive: to use it in their advance. If they rejected it because it violates their rules it would be completely different situation but they didn't. A difference from their choices in AOTC where the entire situation is unclear here they know what they are doing but still they did it.
Paradoxically, Obi Wan is the one person who can ask Anakin to do this. Anakin would reject it if it comes from any other person he could even think that this Jedi betrays the Council. So is Obi Wan who must do it and this makes it twice wrong, if we have in mind that Obi Wan is not completely sure in that decision: why do you ask me to do it? -The Council is asking you).
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Post by Subtext Mining on Sept 4, 2019 18:19:48 GMT
This is indeed a very difficult and delicate situation. Palpatine has put Anakin and the Council into a place where they find themselves scrapping it out for a moral high ground. This scenario serves as a great example of the dilemma of “who’s right, who’s wrong?" Of course Anakin is not without blame here. He accepted his admittance onto the Council under the pretense that it was merely for the honor to be on the Council. He didn't mention to them that Palpatine wanted him to be “the eyes, ears and voice of the Republic.” in other words, Palpatine’s spy. He was also hoping for the prestige of being given the rank of Master.  Obi-Wan evades answering this question with the very fact that he, himself, isn’t, per se. He does not inform Anakin of the complete situation regarding his friend, whom he defends as a good man: The Council wants him to spy because they do not trust the Chancellor. And by now, it could be safe to assume at least some of them already sense a darkness surrounding him. Kenobi, The Negotiator, chooses his words carefully; “...something is out of place." Desperate times call for desperate measures. Yes, the Council uses Palpatine’s request to accept Anakin onto the council merely for the sake of using him. No, he hadn't reached the level of Master yet, but the fact that they bent their own rules by allowing the Chancellor's interference and brought him onto the council without ranking him a Master, only for the sake of spying, made this all abundantly clear. And on top of all this they were taking advantage of Obi-Wan & Anakin’s friendship to take advantage of Anakin & Palpatine’s friendship. Anakin realized all of this when Obi-Wan filled him in on the rest of the plan. This put him in a very tough place on many levels. -As we can see when he vents his concerns and frustrations to Padmé. A scene which illustrates a difference between her and the Council. She suggested to Anakin that he ask Palpatine to resume diplomacy. She also knew how to help him in his time of trouble. And it worked. As we see when he next apologizes to Obi-Wan and expresses his appreciation for him. And decides to soldier through with his duo assignments from Palpataine and the Council and tow the line. But maybe that wasn't the best choice? In retrospect perhaps it would've been better if he'd refused these assignments. But he felt a duty towards his friend, the Republic and his Order. So this whole scenario calls into question for our heroes the concepts of trust, honor and friendship. We see just how much politics, plotting and war can change people. |
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Post by Subtext Mining on Jan 11, 2020 18:34:59 GMT
I suppose deciding what to wear is not much of a difficult choice for the Jedi.
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Post by mikeximus on Jan 23, 2020 14:21:10 GMT
Hey all, so this came up in the Dooku thread. Dooku is such a fascinating character, he deserves his own thread, and I didn't want to hijack that thread into a discussion on the Jedi Order. So here we are. So with that that.. away we go.. tonygYes, I think the Jedi are at fault angle is a huge misrepresentation of the Prequels, which gets carried on into TLJ. I have always felt that people tend to have issue with the Jedi because the fans themselves want to be Jedi, but, just as Anakin did, do not want the responsibilities or the sacrifices that come with it. We have Lucas himself saying in one of the Commentaries that the reason Anakin falls is because he isn't listening to the Jedi. So this belief that the Jedi are big meanines, gets carried into areas where the Jedi have no control over. ie the Clone Army, or testifying on behalf of Naboo in TPM when no one called them to testify. The Jedi weren't stupid, they knew there were problems in the Republic, they spoke of it many times. They were hand tied as to what they could do. While I agree that there are misinterpretation of the Jedi in the ST, I also agree that the Jedi made big mistakes before and during the Clone Wars and that brought the falling of the Order, not because Anakin deviated. The latter just accelerated the destruction. In short, the Jedi deviated from their code. They were peacekeepers and become soldiers: something that they should never do. OK so where is it in their code that they not fight in a war for and to protect the Republic? (keep in mind I just go by the movies, I don't follow all the ancillary stuff). We know the Jedi fought in wars previous to this. We know from Lucas's descriptions of the Jedi vs Sith, that they were involved in wars. Was it not a war that Qui Gon and Obi Wan fought in when they helped free Naboo from the clutches of the Trade Fed? We have a "Jedi" fighting in a war of rebellion in the OT and now the ST. In TPM, Qui Gon says he can only protect Padme, he can't fight a war for her. This not some reference to a Jedi Code or Council Mandate. There is context to why Qui Gon is saying this, and that context is that Padme has made a decision to return to Naboo and fight. To that point, she has not told anyone of her plans on how she is going to fight with no army. So Qui Gon is being a bit sarcastic here by saying "how the hell can you do this, I can't do it for you by myself". The Jedi have clearly chosen a side between two members of the Senate, and chose to help in the war. We have what Mace says in AOTC, which again, there is context to it. Mace never says, we are keepers of the peace, the Jedi Code forbids us to engage in war or be soldiers. As I said, there is very important context to why Mace says what he says: Again, there is very important context here. The vote they are talking about is obviously the vote on the Military Creation Act. At this point of the movie, there are not enough votes to pass the Act, thus why Palpatine is holding off the vote. The Jedi are in favor of the act passing, because as we see in the opening crawl, they are spread thin trying to put out the fires of the separatists movement. The Jedi, in the opening crawl are referred to as having a "limited number". So when we get to the conversation between Mace and Palpatine, there is a continued context. Mace's line of "we are keepers of the peace, not soldiers" does not exist by itself in a bubble. In the almost same breath, Mace re-states what the opening crawl says about the Jedi. There are not enough Jedi to protect the Republic in the case that the Separatists break away and open war is declared. The Jedi numbers limit them to a force of peace keepers, not a standing army of soldiers. There is no reference to a Jedi Code, Mace does not say the Jedi are forbidden to fight in wars, he is simply pointing out, in the same way that Qui Gon does in TPM, the obvious fact that there are not enough Jedi to fight in a war of the magnitude that they are talking about. The Jedi Order were not a separate entity that existed outside of the Republic, that sat back and only helped when they saw fit to help. The Jedi, going back as far as 1977 were always attached to the Republic. They were attached to the Republic, they protected it as a whole. They weren't simply police officers that settled disputes between neighbors. When the instance warranted, they engaged in open combat between standing armies. They protected the Republic from threats large and small, from within and within out. So I do not follow with the idea that just by joining the Clone Wars, to protect the Republic and return it to a state of peace, that this was violating the Jedi Code, there is no evidence from the movies that a Jedi Code forbid them. I know that animated series, The Clone Wars, touched on Yoda reflecting about the war, however, this was a reflection on them not preparing themselves for what war does to people. By not preparing themselves, they allowed themselves to delve to far into the darker aspects of war. I never took it as a condemnation of actually getting involved in the war. The Jedi let Palpatine play his games accepting to hide the fact that they didn't know about the Army but what is worse, they entered in the political games as for example choosing Anakin to spy for them which was one of their serious mistakes. The political games are of lies and deception, this is the Sith way. So the Jedi fell not because of the essence of their creed as the ST interpret them but all the opposite, they fell because they deviated from it. No, they fell because a powerful Sith Lord was able to manipulate a huge, bloated, corrupt government, and used that system against everyone, not just the Jedi. I don't think I will ever get to a place where the fall of the Jedi Order is in part because they sent Anakin to spy on Palpatine, or because they knew that the Sith and other enemies were out there and they didn't want to announce to the everyone that they were handicapped. Was it wrong of the Jedi to spy on Palpatine, there is an argument to be made that it was wrong. However, to suggest that this is a huge moral dilemma that caused them to spiral into the dark side and contributed to their fall based on moral degradation of their principals is a bit much. Anakin doesn't point to the spiritual dilemma of why he thinks it was wrong, he points to the practicalilty of the laws that the Republic would call it treason. If the suggestion is that by spying on Palpatine they further fell into Palpatine's trap? Yes, obviously that would be correct. However your point seemed more based on the moral and spiritual culpability of the action, that degraded the Jedi as a whole, rather than the practicality of it. Let me ask you this, how different is the outcome of ROTS if the Jedi chose not to spy on Palpatine? Does this change in morality on the issue of spying on a politician save them from being shot in the back by the Clones? Does it stop Order 66? Does it stop Anakin from falling to the Dark Side? Does it stop Palpatine's plan in the dust? The obvious answer is no, because Palpatine's plans are never based on forcing the Jedi to deviate from their codes or teachings ( what those codes and teachings are, are up for debate). Palpatine' plans were laid out even before Anakin came along. Palpatine's plans were never reliant on Anakin turning. If Anakin never fell into the spiders web, he would have become another Jedi shot in the back by his Clone Troopers. Anakin was the bonus that was separate from Palpatine's main goal, he was never the main goal. So again, I just don't see the argument that if the Jedi would have just not made a questionable call here or there, than they would have been saved. So what I expected is to see Luke reestablish the Order changing it at one point that should make it even stronger: the love and compassion that saved him and his father at the end of ROTJ should be the center of the Jedi creed not the alienation of emotions. Because the old Jedi appreciated love and compassion, however they lost the connection to it, trying to avoid the anger and so on. The EU books while for me they have another problems are much closer to this understanding. Well love and compassion are the center of the Jedi in the Prequels. Is it not love and compassion for someone to put their lives on the line, and to actually die for complete and total strangers? Why do people forget this aspect of what the Jedi do in the Prequels? That is love and compassion for another living being, that you have no attachment too or for. Anger is not an emotion to act on. Greed is not an emotion to act on. Jealousy is not an emotion to act on. They are willing to lay down their lives to protect a stranger because they have love and compassion for all strangers, not because that person is their Father or Mother. Which has the possibility of changing the equation from selfless to selfish acts. Which is exactly what we see happen with Anakin. Anakin acts on his attachment to Padme. His jealousy, his anger, his fear. "I can't live without her". In his mind, if she dies, the horrible part of her death is how it makes HIM feel. That is not love, that is not compassion, that is greed! These are the things the Jedi teach to avoid and control. |
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Post by Alexrd on Jan 23, 2020 18:12:56 GMT
Regarding Qui-Gon:
The fact that Qui-Gon clarifies that he's only there to protect Amidala, and not fight a war for her, is just that: a clarification. Because Qui-Gon, and virtually everyone else, doesn't know what Amidala's plan is when she says she's going to take back what's hers. She and what army? He's basically saying that she can't count on the Jedi by themselves to take back the planet.
Regarding Mace Windu:
The opening crawl of the movie established the fact that the Jedi have limited numbers, and the rise of the separatist movement is causing turmoil on many systems. The Jedi have their hands full. It also established that the creation of an army is being debated to assist the overwhelmed Jedi. So the purpose of the army and the role of the Jedi is established right there and then.
But George Lucas explains the whole point of "we are keepers of the peace, not soldiers", which is that in the event that half the systems break away, there are very few Jedi in numbers to be used as a defense line for the Republic. They aren't soldiers. They weren't designed to be soldiers. It's not that they can't fight, or that they can't help in a military effort. It's that they aren't a solution to the Republic in the event of a war. That's what Mace is warning about:
It's why there's debate in the senate around the creation of an army. The Republic has no means of defense, that's the problem. Some feel an army should be created in case the Separatists start an offensive. And others (like Padmé) feel that creating an army would send the wrong message to the Separatists, in the sense that they would think the Republic was preparing to attack them.
The Jedi fight in the Clone War because they serve the senate, and they are the main protectors of the Republic. The war has the Republic under attack, and it's up to the Jedi to do everything they can to help end the conflict as soon as possible and bring peace back to the galaxy.
Their ways are not compromised nor have they deviated from their code. They didn't create the war. The war happened. They have a choice to either help in the best of their abilities or not to.
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Post by tonyg on Jan 23, 2020 23:08:19 GMT
"The Jedi fight in the Clone War because they serve the senate, and they are the main protectors of the Republic."
I tend to disagree with this. The Jedi had chosen to be the protectors of the Republic generations ago as we know still from a ANH, yes. But let's ask the question of Padme: what if the Republic became the very evil that fight against? Would the Jedi be the protectors of the Republic then? I dare say no, and not because I extrapolate on their behaviour but because we see this in the end of the ROTS: yes, they went against the Chancellor not the Senate as a whole because their intention was to restore the Republic order that is wrong but in the same way they do have to go against the Republic order because it is twisted at that moment. In short, my point is that the Jedi weren't and shouldn't be unconditional protectors of the Republic. They do that if the Republic chooses the right side. That is the difference between protectors and soldiers: the Army goes unconditionally where is sent for to fight and the protectors try to keep the peace.
So is not the war by itself the problem, although if Sio Bubble is right and there was no full scale war since the formation of the Republic, so if the Order existed since then ,the Order never participated in real war (while obviously they interfered in some local conflicts). Anyway, is because they didn't try to avoid the war, that is the biggest problem. This is the war made just to be chaos and war and to rise the Empire of the ashes of this destruction and the Jedi entered and fight in it.
And Mike, while is obivous that Palpatine is all the opposite of the guy of just around the corner, it is impossible for one person to break a powerful Order that endured generations if this Order wasn't let say it , ready to break in that moment. No matter that Palpatine was an evil genius, Yes, I dare say Palpatine accelerated the process but the Order would survive, even in the shadows, if it was still strong.
But let's say it again: to insist that the Jedi were "the bad guys" because of the fall of the Order is simplistic and stupid. The Jedi were not the bad guys. They were those who made mistakes in crucial moments of their history and they paid for that with the highest price. Yes, they made mistakes , which of course doesn't make Palpatine less bad or doesn't excuse Anakin's fall either. But after all, Yoda didn't go in exile just because he couldn't win the duel with Palpatine. If he did it all right then and before that he wouldn't exile himself in the forgotten world of Dagobah. He went there to figure it out how to change so to restore the essence of the Jedi creed.
For the record, if there is big misunderstanding in the prequels, for me it is for Qui Gon Jinn. I don't know why he is considered kind of rogue Jedi who follows his own rules. Yes, he looks so different from the traditional Jedi of his own time but for me he stays closer to the essence of the Jedi code (that's why he had enough clashes with the Jedi Council). Yoda indeed mentioned his defiance in TPM, but Qui Gon was defiant exactly when he felt that is the right thing to do.
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Post by tonyg on Jan 23, 2020 23:28:56 GMT
P.S. Mike, about the Jedi actions in ROTS: I think it is too late to make the situaion better exactly because there were mistakes before that lead to something that in chess is called zugzwang: where the player is put in situation when every move will lead to loss and there is no move that will lead to victory. (OK, in chess there are more nuances, but the main idea is this). but this situation didn't came from nowhere it came for series of mistakes. However they have chosen the worst option. I hate speculations of the kind "what if" but still, what if the Jedi rejected Palpatine's choice for Anakin to be in the Council? After all , Anakin himself suggested that the Jedi wouldn't accept it so is not something that they couldn't do. Yes , they are not part of the Senate and techically they are not obliged to obey to the Chancellor in all his decisions, so they could reject his representative. However they didn't. Was this a mistake: yes, because again they followed Palpatine's game. Does this make them the bad guys: no, not at all but that makes them the loosing side.
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rayo1
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Post by rayo1 on Jan 24, 2020 0:59:23 GMT
So is not the war by itself the problem, although if Sio Bubble is right and there was no full scale war since the formation of the Republic, so if the Order existed since then ,the Order never participated in real war (while obviously they interfered in some local conflicts). Minor correction: there were countless wars that involved the Jedi Order, usually to fight the Sith Empire during the Old Republic. Even if Sio Bibble is talking about the Ruusan Reformation, it doesn't change the fact that the last great war was before then, and the Jedi did participate. They kept the peace for one thousand years. |
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Post by jppiper on Jan 24, 2020 1:36:45 GMT
rayo1 as i mentioned earlier some people are calling the Jedi a Cult because they take babies and (their words not mine ) Brainwash them answer me this are the jedi a Cult?
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rayo1
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Post by rayo1 on Jan 24, 2020 2:28:07 GMT
rayo1 as i mentioned earlier some people are calling the Jedi a Cult because they take babies and (their words not mine ) Brainwash them answer me this are the Jedi a Cult? They're not a cult, nor do they brainwash little kids. There's not enough canon material to answer what happens when parents don't want their kids becoming Jedi, though the usual implication is that being a force-sensitive baby paints a target on your back for third parties, like pirates or crime families that could use a force-sensitive as an asset; meaning that going to the Temple for the rest of their lives is the safest option. So based on what we've seen, the parents are willing to give their children to the Temple. My only problem is the fact that the Jedi don't allow the kids to meet their families. You'd think that if they were raised with the whole "compassion, not attachment" thing that said kids would be able to meet their families in a much less dangerous state. Not every kid in the temple has Anakin's issues, so let them meet their damn families. |
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Post by rayo1 on Jan 24, 2020 5:52:54 GMT
rayo1 as i mentioned earlier some people are calling the Jedi a Cult because they take babies and (their words not mine ) Brainwash them answer me this aer the jedi a Cult? Actually, that isn’t true, young man. I believe you’re forgetting that in the arc of The Clone Wars with Jar Jar reuniting with his Force-wielding girlfriend, Yoda mentions that the Bardottans have a hatred of the Jedi for stealing their kids and inducting them into the Jedi Order against their will, which they see as brainwashing. ...oh yeah. That does raise a question. jppiper Alexrd thoughts? |
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Post by tonyg on Jan 24, 2020 6:06:46 GMT
Actually, that isn’t true, young man. I believe you’re forgetting that in the arc of The Clone Wars with Jar Jar reuniting with his Force-wielding girlfriend, Yoda mentions that the Bardottans have a hatred of the Jedi for stealing their kids and inducting them into the Jedi Order against their will, which they see as brainwashing. ...oh yeah. That does raise a question. jppiper Alexrd thoughts? Mike said in the beginning that here we discuss exclusively what is in the movies. I didn't watch every episode of TCW, but in the movies there is no implication that the Jedi take children against parents will. In the movies is problematic their deal of the emotions indeed which again leads to problem with the attachment: to family, beloved ones, etc. The Jedi obviously considered this alienation from attachments the only way to avoid anger and fear. I pay attention to the fact that in the OT the Jedi never tried to make Luke alienate himself from attachments, they teach him exclusively to fight against his anger which I consider the right path. So this is a considerable change between the two periods and I don't think that the only reason is because there is no Order, I.e Luke's training is more informal (which obviously it is). And in ST like with no explanation the things go in a very strange direction, as Like forgot everything that he had learn from Yoda, Obi Wan and his own experience. |
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Post by mikeximus on Jan 24, 2020 6:31:23 GMT
If memory serves me correctly about those two episodes, the idea behind the Bardottan’s believing that the Jedi were kidnapping children was more a consequence of the Bardottan’s prejudices towards the Jedi, than it was because the Jedi were actually stealing kids from their mothers.
It has been a very long time since I watched Tye Cline Wars, so a refresher might be needed, but I thought that the Bardottan’s did not agree with how the Jedi Order used or saw the Force. I believe the Bardottan’s were far more pacifist and believed that the Force should not be used in any way considered violent? So they disagreed with even the Jedi Orders concept of using the force for self defense. So this rift between the two ideologies kind of instigated a false narrative from the Bardottan’s that the Jedi were kidnapping kids. When in fact the Jedi were not doing anything different with recruiting Bardottan kids than they were any where else in the Republic.
Hopefully I got that right and I’m not getting things twisted from other arcs or episodes.. I might actually watch that episode(s) again to see.
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