RIP David Prowse

He was a bit of a narcissist and a racist -- sorry. But RIP nonetheless.

I'm surprised to read this. It's pretty well-known. 

He caused Lucas several difficulties with his association with Star Wars -- not the least of which was sounding off years later that he was misled and unfairly denied what he considered his rightful shot at being the voice of Darth Vader, bitching that they went with a "negro" voice instead of his own to attract a "black audience". In 1998, having made this complaint numerous times, he went as far as accusing Lucas of "reverse racism".

He also whined that Sebastian Shaw got to be the face of Darth Vader at the end of ROTJ, and not the mighty Dave Prowse. He de-emphasised the importance of stuntman Bob Anderson. He overcharged for his autograph and was sometimes a rude, obnoxious jerk to fans (despite positive stories to the contrary). He gleefully took part in agreeing with the consensus that the prequels were ineffective and terrible:

In 2007 via The Void:


In 2011 via The Kevin Moore Show (YouTube):



Title: Dave Prowse aka Darth Vader from the original 'Star Wars' Trilogy
Channel: The Kevin Moore Show
Uploaded: Nov 26, 2011


In 2013 via The Guardian:


Indeed, Prowse wasn't shy of letting his disdain be known at the time. In 2004, he starred in the fan film Saving Star Wars, which is something of a send-up of fan obsession but also a direct acknowledgement of the disdain toward the prequels (or Episodes I and II). 

With the release of Episode III closing in, Prowse had the temerity, in his egotistical delusion, to proclaim that he had "a huge following", and if he didn't get to play Darth Vader again, he was "sure fans would boycott the film". In a further act of desperation, he stated that Lucasfilm was "honour-bound" to re-cast him in the role. 

Lastly, in addition to "Saving Star Wars", Prowse also appeared in the prequel-bashing documentary The People vs. George Lucas in 2010, though he later claimed he didn't realise it was going to be as negatively slanted as it turned out to be.

The culmination of all this distasteful behaviour and taunting was that he was finally banned from all Lucasfilm events, beginning with Celebration V -- the news of which was announced in June 2010:

www.theforce.net/latestnews/story/David_Prowse_Not_Invited_To_CV_132099.asp

He was an egotistical asshat who even acknowledged on his own website that he had "burned too many bridges" with George Lucas and Lucasfilm. He wanted to be known as the person primarily responsible for bringing Darth Vader to life, and he didn't really care who he threw under the bus in order to preserve that accolade. It seems he could never get over Lucas picking a voice actor other than himself, least of all an accomplished black actor, and his ego took a serious bruising. So much so, it seems he decided he would take shots at Lucas and Lucasfilm whenever it suited him -- his ban was therefore a long time in the making.

Recommended reading -- see the posts by Shelley in the following TFN thread:

boards.theforce.net/threads/no-cameo-for-dave-prowse.19568510/

(Some of the posts are unfortunately cut off due to technical complications arising from the imbecilic board move in 2012, but you can get the jist of it).

And before anyone thinks I'm solely relying on one source (albeit a good one), I'm not. You can, for example, see Prowse's ego at work in the following videos:



Title: Peter Mayhew David Prowse SL ComicCon 2013
Channel: Teankun
Uploaded: Sep 19, 2013

@ 14:00 -- He talks about Lucas not using his voice, and on this occasion he avoids making any racist comments, but still manages to imply there was no good reason for Lucas not to give him a chance, other than a basic assumption his accent automatically disqualified him (a way of subtly implying prejudice without stating it).

@ 15:40 -- He is asked about Sebastian Shaw taking the role of the unmasked Vader. He suggests that Alec Guinness did it as a favour to an acting friend (implying he was unfairly pushed aside for a second time). The Alec Guinness bash is more significant than it might seem because...

@ 17:00 -- Prowse shares an anecdote about reading (or rather: scanning through) Alec Guinness' "huge great big autobiography" (note: AG's autobiography is in three volumes). He clearly took offence at a casual swipe AG made toward him in his autobiography based on his journal entries ("I fear he is not an actor"), somewhat lamely countering that, "You don't remember Alec Guinness as Obi-Wan Kenobi, you remember Darth Vader" -- apparently missing the irony of his remark (he names Alec Guinness and Obi-Wan Kenobi directly, but omits his own name when mentioning Vader in his rejoinder). Contrast Prowse's self-important whining with the gentleman sat next to him. Peter Mayhew's response to the same remark is notably more diplomatic, wherein he suggests that Alec Guinness made an "obvious comment" in his journal but might have been better off not using it in his autobiography.

Just so we can catch our breath here and review: In the 14:00 and 15:40 segments, Prowse is clearly put out that he was never informed his voice would be overdubbed, and equally miffed that he was never told about another actor performing as the face of Vader in the unmasking scene. This seems to have created a lot of resentment in him toward Lucas/Lucasfilm, but there was no particular reason Lucas had to inform him about those things (but maybe it would have been better for both parties if Prowse had been made aware). The 17:00 segment concerning Alec Guinness is particularly crass on Prowse's part. The stage host, Bryan Young, clearly asks both Prowse and Mayhew for any entertaining on-set stories they feel like sharing about AG -- one of the most legendary actors in all of cinema. Instead, after Mayhew tries to roll with the moderator, Prowse basically hijacks the question and makes it all about himself, paying Guinness zero compliments -- he was clearly pissed that AG made an insulting (if very "British") remark about him and was determined, in my opinion, to get back at him. All in service of puffing himself up. Zero humility.

A couple more moments of note:     

@ 20:30 -- Complains about the rudeness/distanced nature of Richard Marquand (although he's not the only actor who had a problem with Marquand on this level). He uses this to launch into a drawn-out anecdote about stuntman Bob Anderson (this is the first time Prowse mentions him: half-way through his stage appearance). His complaint here is that he was again sidelined and that a difficult task -- lifting up another actor whilst in the Vader suit and hurling him over a railing -- was given to someone who, in Prowse's opinion, wasn't up to the job. Prowse builds to the punchline that he eventually convinced Marquand and the producers to perform the stunt himself, and, of course: he was able to achieve it in a single take (after allegedly days of wasted effort with Bob Anderson).

@ 33:00 -- Though rightfully proud of his role as The Green Cross man, Prowse has to end it with a brag that he eventually received an MBE (Member of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire). On its face, this would be fine -- although Prowse calls it the "best part", bizarrely implying it's better than the quarter of a million children he claims he saved from being killed or seriously injured during the years he was part of the road safety campaign. Furthermore, Prowse bashed Alec Guinness and said nothing favourable about him just fifteen minutes before this, even though Alec Guinness was a "Sir" and received both a CH (The Order of the Companions Honour) and a CBE (Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire). 

A shorter video here, but notable for at least thing one thing -- Dave Prowse never mentions Bob Anderson:



Title: David Prowse Interview: 2016 Hamilton Comic Con
Channel: Screen Radar
Uploaded: Nov 14, 2016

@ 5:00 -- Prowse is asked what it was like fighting people like Alec Guinness and Mark Hamill in the Vader costume (obviously referring to the lightsaber duels, not on-set fighting!). Prowse deflects and says it was "more fun than anything very, very serious", and quickly starts talking about fighting AG, skipping over Mark Hamill entirely. And probably with good reason, since Bob Anderson did most of the actual sword-fighting, and the duels in TESB and ROTJ were much more elaborate. Prowse wasn't needed much in those; but per the other video, he still tried to make it seem like Bob Anderson couldn't always deliver the goods and that he (Prowse) was still an important (and unfairly overlooked) asset.

Finally, I'm including this one as an early example of Prowse making racist remarks toward James Earl Jones. It would get worse in later interviews:



Title: 1980 Star Wars Dave Prowse Empire Interview for the Clapper Board show
Channel: sarlaccpitpodcast
Uploaded: May 18, 2015

@ 5:20 -- Here, perhaps because the interview was taking part in 1980, Prowse pretends to be okay that his voice wasn't used, citing the accent issue as he does in the first video from 2013. However, he also conflates the casting of James Earl Jones with the "big black character" of Darth Vader, affirming that JEJ has an "obvious black voice" and "a very obvious negro voice" -- never mind the fact that James Earl Jones is a classically-trained baritone-voiced (or basso profondo) actor who happens to be black (or Black-Indian -- and in 2001 he narrated a highly-rated documentary about Black-Indian people). Prowse half-heartedly (read: disingenuously) claims it's "a nice combination", then rather childishly says, "It's frustrating for me, obviously, because, you know, not having your..." At that point, the interviewer interrupts him and switches the topic to Darth Vader's lightsaber, seemingly unaware how much this issue was already gnawing at Prowse and would haunt him down the years.

Hope all of that gives a bit of insight into what Dave Prowse was actually like: sort of snide, cynical, and bitter, but often disguised behind a level of mirth/banter, such that his resentments weren't even noticed half the time, or passed off as a joke. Although, in reality, that's probably true of more of us than we'd care to admit. Why am I reminded of Anakin in the meadow taking to Padme?

I'll also freely admit to not liking his political opinions one bit. Prowse was no progressive. He publicly voiced support for UKIP in 2009 and wanted to bring back capital punishment. A pretty right-wing bugger of a human being. People can crack all the jokes they like about "Darth Vader" supporting capital punishment, but the death penalty belongs in our nasty past, and I look down on anyone that longs for it to be re-implemented.

And here I was trying to be diplomatic....

All that you say is true, as far as I know. And though I've never been one to admonish for speaking ill of the dead (I never thought the prohibition made much sense unless maybe you were literally speaking to the deceased's friends and loved ones), I do think the occasion of a person's passing presents an opportunity to put their life in a fuller context. Dave Prowse was not a person who made you feel compelled to say glowing things about him. He was, as you say, by all indications an asshat. However, he also wasn't history's greatest monster. Much like the role he provided the physical presence for, I believe there's some good to be found in his being on this earth. Namely, he was Darth Vader. He was not the most important actor to bring Darth Vader to life, nor was he--despite his moments of genuinely compelling physical acting--by any means irreplaceable. But he was Darth Vader nonetheless; his name is right there in the credits, and there it will always be. Ultimately, being Darth Vader is what he will be most remembered for. Everything else will fade away, and in the absence of his mortal jealousies toward actors like James Earl Jones and Sebastian Shaw, jealousies which have now died along with him, it will perhaps represent a fulfillment of his lifelong desire to be known and loved for the role, without the taint of nagging feelings of insecurity. 

Got it in one. All that feuding and griping really doesn't amount to a hill of beans, at the end of the day -- for the most part, it's just petty bias and egotism. That said, it adds a human layer of intrigue to the films, and it can be interesting to chart the twists and turns of how these movies were made, and the fall-out thereafter. Moreover, it can be fun to see how alike -- or unlike -- the primary actors are when pitted against their characters and contributions. It might be a touch gossip-y and trashy, but these cast and crew have tried lowering (or levelling) the discourse in various ways, so if it seems cheap... hey, they said it.

Last, but not least:

When you think of how much contempt, hatred, and sheer vitriol has been directed at George Lucas over the years, especially since the explosion of the Internet, it's only fitting that the words and conduct of all the other Star Wars personnel be preserved and examined for posterity, to keep the picture balanced and honest. Lucas' choices, as we all know, have been placed under a microscope (albeit a faulty microscope with a dodgy lens) the past twenty years; while other people involved in these films have been largely ignored, even deified (and occasionally vilified). I'm concerned that other people don't get away with their "crimes" -- especially when, for a considerable period of time, George Lucas was perhaps the most hated person in all of cyberspace (if that's an exaggeration, I'm confident we can all agree it ain't much of one).




LOL! Well, as the prequels show: sometimes, diplomacy is a sham.


Correct. I do think it's sad he passed away. He led a colourful life. And now we're down another member of the Star Wars family. It's getting awfully small out there...

Nevertheless, I don't think -- to echo you -- it does any good to avoid speaking truthfully, and yes: a person's passing is exactly the right time to put their life into fuller context.


Right. No-one is fully good or fully bad -- which is the essence of what Star Wars tries to teach. Star Wars is a human fable, and it's wonderful that an aspirational lad from Bristol, born in 1935 (incidentally: the year my musical hero and personal icon Elvis Presley was born), was able to become part of something, in many ways, greater than himself (not a bash of Prowse: just a riff on his humble origins versus the globe-spanning impact of GL's mythic opus). My sister presently lives in Bristol and I visited there a few years ago. I wasn't entirely sure what to make of it, but it seems a fairly hip and happening place. It's actually quite remarkable, hailing from the West Midlands myself, when I recall how many English people have become swept up in the machinery of Star Wars. On the other hand, I'd like to think that Prowse's most important and sterling contribution to society was his British road safety campaign. Saving so many children's lives and preventing them from suffering serious injury is something he had every right to be proud of and is something to be praised. But yes, ultimately, his legacy of Darth Vader is secure. Star Wars is bigger than Dave Prowse. But yet: Dave Prowse was also bigger than Star Wars.

We can, and perhaps should, for the sake of the thread and whatever else, agree to disagree on that one. Or rather: not get into it at all. Nevertheless, the idea that racism often takes a veiled and insidious form is hardly unique to the strains of thought behind Black Lives Matter and other social-justice movements. Heck, it's been a topic of cinema for decades. Even the Star Wars prequels basically sum to: "small things bubbling under the surface" and "characters being molded and destroyed by injustices unspoken". The Phantom Menace.


Yes, I knew what you were referring to. You were being your kind, charitable self and trying your best to see whimsy ahead of malignancy -- perfectly fair. But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence in cases like this. Dave Prowse may well exude a "gentle giant" quality in the 1980 video, but you can tell he's quietly pissed at the situation -- he would center on his anger/anxiety later. And personally, I don't think it can be ignored that he openly supported UKIP decades later, or that he was in favour of the death penalty being brought back. The former is broadly considered a xenophobic/racist party, while the latter is a brutal punishment we're gradually evolving beyond -- and victims of the death penalty in the United States, at least, are disproportionately black. What Prowse says in that 1980 video is (at least in retrospect) already tinged with resentment and a blatant red flag.


This page has a few answers:

movies.stackexchange.com/questions/17504/why-didnt-james-earl-jones-get-voice-over-credit-for-star-wars

From there, the following (interview dates to 2008):


Another link cited -- the IMDb trivia page for the original film -- no longer contains the other reason given on the Stack Exchange page (that JEJ didn't want to be typecast). Given the questionable veracity of claims made in the IMDB trivia section, I will not reproduce that other answer, as it seems to have been pulled. 

I've gone back and edited my previous response to reflect this additional information. So James Earl Jones was actually credited on ROTJ, and later got his credit for ANH and TESB when those films came out in their Special Edition configuration. 

It may be apropos of nothing, but it's interesting that Jones was credited at the end of the OT just as Prowse was evidently being edged out. One of Prowse's allegations against Lucasfilm was that he never received any residual payments for ROTJ:


Here's a slightly different quote (the more popular quote) that is alleged to be from the same source:


An explanation is offered in the comments:


It does sound like Prowse was a victim of Hollywood accounting. So let me be clear here: I do not mean to say, despite my critical remarks, that all of his grievances against Lucas/Lucasfilm were illegitimate. Sadly, they probably were not. His family may still have a case they could pursue.


There were more stand-ins used than I could find pictures for. Using the IMDb "cast and crew" section, which is generally better than the aforementioned "trivia" section, here are the stand-ins credited for each OT film (in order of listing):

Episode IV: A New Hope

Maurice Bush ... stand-in: David Prowse (uncredited)
Stephen Calcutt ... stand-in: Peter Mayhew and David Prowse (uncredited)

Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back

C. Andrew Nelson ... Darth Vader (special edition) (uncredited)
Stephen Calcutt ... stand-in: Peter Mayhew and David Prowse (uncredited)

Episode VI: Return Of The Jedi

Harold Cole ... Darth Vader (uncredited)
Stephen Calcutt ... stand-in: Peter Mayhew, Michael Carter and David Prowse (uncredited)
Roy Everson ... stand-in: David Prowse (uncredited)

It should be noted that ROTJ has a fair few stand-ins, some of whom aren't linked to any particular actor or character. Here are the ones not linked:

Roy Beck ... stand-in (uncredited)
Ron Gregory ... stand-in (uncredited)
Ben Mansworth ... stand-in (uncredited)
Lou Morgan ... stand-in (uncredited)

There are also stand-ins listed for ROTS:

Episode III: Revenge Of The Sith

Gene Bryant ... Darth Vader (uncredited)
Christian Simpson ... stand-in: Hayden Christensen, UK

Films are complicated financial, logistical, technical, intellectual, and emotional undertakings. Prowse could certainly have had several stand-ins on ROTJ for a variety of reasons. We may never know the full extent of his beef with Lucas/Lucasfilm -- or why they treated him, post-TESB, as harshly as they did. 

I was going to mention that, but was unable to find anything concrete (time, date, quotes, video evidence, etc.). While shameful if it actually happened, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Great detective work, Joe! Thank you kindly for the link. 

The relevant comments are by lovelucas. She used to post occasionally on Naboo News and also had an account on the dreaded TFN under the same name. She often complimented me (and I certainly appreciated her postings) and we became online acquaintances. She is a major PT fan who has met cast members and even visited some of the filming locations (ask her about visiting Lake Como/Villa Balbianello -- the "Lake Retreat" in AOTC -- sometime). Unfortunately, politics came between us in the last year and we are presently estranged. But I can vouch that her word is solid and she is a lady of keen intelligence and decent principles. If she says it happened, it happened. Here are her posts from the SWPAS link:




I believe she is describing attending the Fan Expo Canada event held between August 24th to August 26th 2007 at the Metro Toronto Convention Center. On the Wikipedia page, Dave Prowse is listed under the "Notable guests" column. 

Listings on the following pages confirm that Jake Lloyd and Dave Prowse were scheduled to do a Q&A session together on Saturday August 25th 2007:

forum.rebelscum.com/threads/fan-expo-sfx-2007-photos-added-aug-26-07.978089/

haydenfannews.com/June-2007.html

On the other hand, I just found this earlier interview with the pair from the year 2000 (feels like a lifetime ago), and Dave Prowse is perfectly sweet and congenial here:



Title: 2000 Disney Star Wars Weekends Jake Lloyd / David Prowse Interview
Channel: Keith Gapinski
Uploaded: Jun 4, 2011

It is possible that Prowse's ongoing health problems and resentments toward Lucas/Lucasfilm had started to besiege his mind and turn him into a less patient person in some public settings six years later. That, or to use a more familiar term, he was just having an "off day".
 

I wasn't "cancelling" Prowse. I was simply lending context. Critical context, perhaps, but if you want the "he was a wonderful man" spiel, I suggest you just stick to YouTube comments or another less demanding social space. Or you could just ignore my posts.


Pot, kettle. You're actually whining at me instead of adding anything of substance to your own thread. I've provided plenty of quotes, video links, article links, etc. You? Just another empty attempt at lashing out and scolding another forum member for saying things you dislike.


I know what the thread is meant to be about, thanks. My posts lend substance to the intended topic. Maybe not in the way you personally like, but then: you have a habit of bashing anything you dislike as invalid. 

If you're so worried about the health of your thread, why not man up and add something to it? Just being a worthless forum scold all the time is a pretty sad existence, don't you think? I preferred the old Arch Duke who actually had things to say.


"People like you have no place here" -- sounds pretty judgemental and intolerant to me.

Yeah, so "everyone is welcome"... 

Except the people that personally upset you.

How about you stop being a little forum fascist and grow up?

Thanks for the defence, Somny. Your concision and astuteness are much appreciated.

I can understand my negativity getting people's backs up, to be fair. I can be a pretty morbid and cynical bastard!

However...

I am not saying my opinions are the law or anything, even as I aspire to a certain kind of quasi-objectivity. I at least try and back up what I say with reasonable documentation (at least recently -- it's fun, if a little tasking, and feels like the right thing to do). I may have a tough point of view; maybe too tough. But that's kinda what message boards are for. I certainly wouldn't want to appear that I was throwing Dave Prowse -- or anyone -- under the bus for no good reason.

And then, for all my critical remarks, I still hope I'm not completely throwing him under a bus. That just wouldn't be fair. Nevertheless, if this more critical fan perspective of him weren't acknowledged, it would render any thread about him a little false and hollow, in my opinion. These bits 'n' pieces I've thrown into the mix are also in danger of becoming so obscure that I felt they needed to be gathered and put somewhere for future reference. 

Indeed, a large part of the reason criticism of Prowse may seem so shocking, or unwanted, is that a lot of people probably aren't aware of these sources, or these things that were said and are part of the historical record (albeit, again, a muddy/obscure record). Not to sound like I'm picking on him, but Ingram straight up said he "never knew" about a tiff between Prowse and Lucasfilm, even though a tiff very obviously occurred and can be demonstrated with links/sources (even if the exact reasons for the tiff are hard to pin down).

You're also right that anyone can assail me (in the proper dialectical sense) by offering a counter-perspective at any time. The floor is open. That's not to say I'm trolling or deliberately trying to stir up controversy. I have a contrarian streak, but I like to think that trying to offer clarity via robust perspective trumps merely being combative or contrarian in some sense. Then again, if I don't have a proper grip of my motives and I am being contrarian more than I realise -- so what? Intellectually secure people should not fear doleful revelations or those individuals who take a dolorous attitude to something (or a positive one in a sea of negativity). Yeah, unending criticism lacking nuance can be annoying to the point of becoming toxic, sure. I don't want to be turn into that sort of person. But I don't think that has happened here. I know other people practically demand that only nice things be said, but I'm uninterested in hagiography; especially if it's only being resorted to to keep the peace.

To apply some balm to the thread, however -- sure. I'm happy to do that. Let me return to this post of Ingram's and see if I can add something:


There's the cynical part of me that says, "Yeah? It's only a guy clenching his fist."

But maybe there's a certain drama and force to it that I don't appreciate.

One person on YouTube put it that way, in fact, under the following video:



Title: The Real Voice of Darth Vader...hilarious!
Channel: Menorenodutt
Uploaded: 29 Jul 2010


And another:


Once more with feeling:


I mean... I dunno...

I guess I have the view that many people could have played Vader and a similar result could have been achieved. Biased? Yep. But I'll own my bias.

Take the last item in the last comment: "the brutal saber blows". Well, most of those saber blows were delivered by Bob Anderson, not Prowse. 

And people seem to overlook this little thing called directing. It would be interesting to know how much Prowse improvised and Lucas went with, but Prowse was presumably asked to give Vader those mannerisms by Lucas and the subsequent sequel directors. I mean, "the menacing finger" -- how else was Vader meant to gesture in someone's face without pointing at them? There was surely a concerted effort to make Vader bossy, memorable, larger-than-life. And were those black-gloved hands just going to stay at Vader's side or remain perched on his belt the whole time? Hell no. Nevertheless, it's those micro-gestures where the actor almost certainly added something. And maybe there is an underlying human tendency to personalise an abstract character like Vader and ground his presence in the aura and stately import of a real individual. And yeah, fuck it -- that strut is pretty awesome. Prowse perhaps deserved more recognition from Lucasfilm than he received.