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Post by jppiper on Nov 30, 2020 14:29:43 GMT
That's the Question which Version of Our Little Green Friend Do You Prefer?
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Dec 2, 2020 22:39:23 GMT
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Post by jppiper on Dec 2, 2020 22:53:34 GMT
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Post by Ingram on Dec 2, 2020 23:04:36 GMT
At the risk of sounding overly diplomatic: Puppet for the OT, CGI for the PT.
That business in the ST doesn't...doesn't count.
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Post by Cryogenic on Dec 3, 2020 1:00:43 GMT
Why? Maybe it's on the more trivial side, but it's a valid question that's not interfering with a pre-existing conversation. The General Grievances thread is meant to be for general odds and ends that do interfere, as stated in the opening post: This thread is designated for posting links to articles and videos that would otherwise derail or stop the conversational flow of other threads. |
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Post by Cryogenic on Dec 3, 2020 1:14:17 GMT
At the risk of sounding overly diplomatic: Puppet for the OT, CGI for the PT. That business in the ST doesn't...doesn't count. Smooth. That would basically be my answer, too. Although I think the digital Yoda that first appeared in AOTC (rather appropriately: it's the most dream-like episode with, oddly or not, the most "realistic" or subtle emotions) kind of, well... runs rings around the puppet (which gets by on tons of charm). That's my view in 2020, anyway. I mean, if you study his debut appearance, this scene contains one of the best justifications for digital character animation there's ever been (when Yoda shoots Palpatine that suspicious look in meaningful close-up -- more devastating than Sith lightning!): The subtleties in Yoda's facial acting there are fantastic. Truly wonderful the advent of a digital Yoda is. But then, without the older puppet and Frank Oz's brilliant performance for reference, the digital Yoda wouldn't exude such class. You being such an unrepentant AOTC lover, I know you probably hold the same view! I'm preaching to the converted-from-Day-One. Sorry. I'm being no-filter, jerk Anakin to your relaxed, leaning-on-the-airbus, keeper-of-the-peace Obi-Wan. Though you probably intended a broader bash, I agree with you on ST Yoda. I like the part where he clonks Luke on the head, but all the masterful Yoda work -- with all due respect to everyone involved -- had already been done in the preceding movies. It's a good scene, but Yoda's essence is, well... a tad perfunctory. However, it's good to have him there, even in a somewhat phoned-in state. It hardly feels like Star Wars without Yoda or Palpatine. |
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Dec 3, 2020 2:08:32 GMT
The OP raises a blind question, without fully laying out the options available to prospective contributors or giving a broad overview of the topic. It's the kind of low-effort OP posting that Subtext Mining warned about recently. I accept that my proposed new location may not fit the criteria, but I still think Joe is breaking a rule here (albeit a new-ish one). That business in the ST doesn't...doesn't count. Yup, this is the Lucas Saga board, after all. For discussion on him in any Disney film, there is another.
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Post by Cryogenic on Dec 3, 2020 2:19:21 GMT
The OP raises a blind question, without fully laying out the options available to prospective contributors or giving a broad overview of the topic. It's the kind of low-effort OP posting that Subtext Mining warned about recently. I accept that my proposed new location may not fit the criteria, but I still think Joe is breaking a rule here (albeit a new-ish one). True. And it's certainly not a hill worth dying on. So I'm not going to argue the thread is less than ideal and couldn't do with thickening up. Perhaps the webmaster could change the thread title and re-word the opening post and make it into a general Yoda discussion thread? Also true. Yet they conspicuously made Yoda a puppet again in TLJ. I thought it was worth commenting on, if only in a supplementary/adjunctive sense, vis-à-vis Yoda's technical realisation in the Lucas Saga. |
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Post by Ingram on Dec 3, 2020 7:24:06 GMT
But then, without the older puppet and Frank Oz's brilliant performance for reference, the digital Yoda wouldn't exude such class. You being such an unrepentant AOTC lover, I know you probably hold the same view! I'm preaching to the converted-from-Day-One. Sorry. I'm being no-filter, jerk Anakin to your relaxed, leaning-on-the-airbus, keeper-of-the-peace Obi-Wan. Though you probably intended a broader bash, I agree with you on ST Yoda. I like the part where he clonks Luke on the head, but all the masterful Yoda work -- with all due respect to everyone involved -- had already been done in the preceding movies. It's a good scene, but Yoda's essence is, well... a tad perfunctory. However, it's good to have him there, even in a somewhat phoned-in state. It hardly feels like Star Wars without Yoda or Palpatine.
An interesting enough comparison... while I cannot logically prefer CGI Tarkin in Rogue One to 'living Peter Cushing' Tarkin in A New Hope, I wholly embrace the former in parallel. Storytelling-through-technology to its most progressive outer rim is the essence of Star Wars cinema, where no conventions or mores are sacred. "God made all men, but Samuel Colt made them equal," so the saying goes. Well, George Lucas equalized every component of filmmaking, many of which often customarily partitioned, into granulated storytelling sugar—actors, puppets, models; tactile, pixelated; stage thespian, software; in-camera coverage, editorial coverage... all of it together as one. No doctrines, no orthodox. They're all just paints waiting for the canvas. Puppet Yoda is the geriatric Yoda, the half-senile ol' trickster living away in the swamps. That is, until such yields the humble Yoda underneath, weighed down with tides of yore. Appropriate, then, how said puppetry renders him ragged and feeble, but also earthen—wisdom now totalized and deeply rooted in the mud. CGI Yoda is still the stoic schoolmaster overlooking silver cities from an ivory tower, and who must furthermore navigate galactic happenings at their center. Here, he is internalized, refined, sphinx-like; digital facilitates this nuance, to say nothing of its ability to fully express his Wuxia prowess.
So there you have it. There's a time and place, and technology, for everything.
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Post by Alexrd on Dec 3, 2020 16:54:00 GMT
While the puppet in TESB was an achievement in and on itself at the time (further improved with the ROTJ puppet), I think there's no denying that CGI Yoda, specially the ROTS model, is the most versatile of them all. So it gets my vote.
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jtn90
Ambassador
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Post by jtn90 on Dec 3, 2020 20:28:42 GMT
The dichotomy of puupet and cgi creatures is that while the puppet is actually there,so is more integrated whith the enviroment, the CGI has far less movement limitation, allowing not only to be more expressive,but also more beliable as a living creature. Anyway as it has been said, the techniques used to bring Yoda to life where good to the time and his purpose and it reflects the stage of the character, Even I admit puppet Yoda is very expresive, I mean,the scene where he falls from Luke's back didn't become a meme for nothing,  but if I had to choose I would say CGI Yoda, for the reasons mentioned earlier, Is the apareance that comes in my mind when I think on Yoda and the one that has more screentime on the movies. Regarding ST Yoda, if you see the making off, you will see that they really put effort on rplicating the OG puppet, the problem I see is the upper lip of his mouth, I feel it looks like he has bitten a lemon. |
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Post by Ingram on Dec 3, 2020 22:18:21 GMT
Regarding ST Yoda, if you see the making off, you will see that they really put effort on rplicating the OG puppet, the problem I see is the upper lip of his mouth, I feel it looks like he has bitten a lemon. I'd submit that the problem concerned an underlying impetus, which was to be ceremonial for its own sake. They weren't using technology to tell a story, but nostalgia to placate a fandom-approved legacy of the OT. I'm sure the practical effects artists put every last measure of craft into recapturing a puppet Yoda dimension of the character as best they could, always fighting uphill against the uncanny valley equation. Except it's all for not when the results come off like a distraction. So when watching the scene, instead of...
"Hey, there's Yoda."
...it's...
"Hey, there's the filmmakers taking us out of the story by calling our attention to both a Memory-Lane gimmick and superficial pop-cultural verdict regarding the case of CGI versus Puppets."
Smashing job, filmmakers. I can think of no higher aim. I still favor The Last Jedi among its set but this was possibly the lamest shit in the movie. Granted, the issue is twofold for me, in that I could've gone an entire Sequel Trilogy (and beyond) without revisiting Yoda ...or Luke or Han or Leia or Lando or Palpatine, for that matter. But that's a separate topic.
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Post by Cryogenic on Dec 4, 2020 0:50:05 GMT
But then, without the older puppet and Frank Oz's brilliant performance for reference, the digital Yoda wouldn't exude such class. You being such an unrepentant AOTC lover, I know you probably hold the same view! I'm preaching to the converted-from-Day-One. Sorry. I'm being no-filter, jerk Anakin to your relaxed, leaning-on-the-airbus, keeper-of-the-peace Obi-Wan. Though you probably intended a broader bash, I agree with you on ST Yoda. I like the part where he clonks Luke on the head, but all the masterful Yoda work -- with all due respect to everyone involved -- had already been done in the preceding movies. It's a good scene, but Yoda's essence is, well... a tad perfunctory. However, it's good to have him there, even in a somewhat phoned-in state. It hardly feels like Star Wars without Yoda or Palpatine. An interesting enough comparison... while I cannot logically prefer CGI Tarkin in Rogue One to 'living Peter Cushing' Tarkin in A New Hope, I wholly embrace the former in parallel. Storytelling-through-technology to its most progressive outer rim is the essence of Star Wars cinema, where no conventions or mores are sacred. "God made all men, but Samuel Colt made them equal," so the saying goes. Well, George Lucas equalized every component of filmmaking, many of which often customarily partitioned, into granulated storytelling sugar—actors, puppets, models; tactile, pixelated; stage thespian, software; in-camera coverage, editorial coverage... all of it together as one. No doctrines, no orthodox. They're all just paints waiting for the canvas. Puppet Yoda is the geriatric Yoda, the half-senile ol' trickster living away in the swamps. That is, until such yields the humble Yoda underneath, weighed down with tides of yore. Appropriate, then, how said puppetry renders him ragged and feeble, but also earthen—wisdom now totalized and deeply rooted in the mud. CGI Yoda is still the stoic schoolmaster overlooking silver cities from an ivory tower, and who must furthermore navigate galactic happenings at their center. Here, he is internalized, refined, sphinx-like; digital facilitates this nuance, to say nothing of its ability to fully express his Wuxia prowess.
So there you have it. There's a time and place, and technology, for everything. Good thoughts. I've also said before that the two Yodas and their (im)palpable constitutions are perfectly apropos for their respective eras: the gleaming, quicksilver world of the last days of the Old Republic, and the swampy, sclerotic, stripped-down world of the OT. Indeed, in the PT, Yoda practically became a "luminous being", untethered as he now was from the profane domain of "crude matter" and the feebleness of latex incarnate -- only to be tossed out of that world and thrown back to the swamp, condemned (or relieved) to be held hostage to the rigours of time and a muddy, slushy universe once more (a cosmic birth and rebirth: from digital salamander and part-bureaucrat in a busy metropolis, to rickety old shaman living under a tin roof in a far-flung corner of the universe: biblical to brackish; from palace to mudhole -- the digital word made flesh). The contrast between the two is quite awesome to behold. Yet another stroke of genius and a potent piece of meta-symbolism that speaks directly to the mind-jarring gestalt that is the Star Wars Saga. I really like the Wuxia observation, too. In the middle of the PT, Yoda is an aging warrior, still capable of springing (literally) into action when the occasion arises. In the OT, he's more ailing mystic -- but a hint of his past reminds when he snatches the lamp from Artoo (almost literally defiantly swiping a bit of extra life from the Force): its dim light a poignant reminder of the fierce swordsman that once was (and instructor of Younglings in the ways of the mind -- and the sword), now down to its basic essence: a fading white dwarf, the heat of youth (and rebellion) long gone. Hey, it's called STAR WARS, is it not? "But Master Yoda, you can't die." Did you not see that lamp he was holding, Luke?  And what should have been Yoda's real line: "Die, I cannot. Come back and haunt you and laugh over your failure, I will. Send down lightning from the sky and recommend you go to the barbers, I just might! Just watch yourself, Young Skywalker. The original bad motherf*cker, I am." Regarding ST Yoda, if you see the making off, you will see that they really put effort on rplicating the OG puppet, the problem I see is the upper lip of his mouth, I feel it looks like he has bitten a lemon. I'd submit that the problem concerned an underlying impetus, which was to be ceremonial for its own sake. They weren't using technology to tell a story, but nostalgia to placate a fandom-approved legacy of the OT. I'm sure the practical effects artists put every last measure of craft into recapturing a puppet Yoda dimension of the character as best they could, always fighting uphill against the uncanny valley equation. Except it's all for not when the results come off like a distraction. So when watching the scene, instead of... "Hey, there's Yoda." ...it's... "Hey, there's the filmmakers taking us out of the story by calling our attention to both a Memory-Lane gimmick and superficial pop-cultural verdict regarding the case of CGI versus Puppets."
Smashing job, filmmakers. I can think of no higher aim. I still favor The Last Jedi among its set but this was possibly the lamest shit in the movie. I don't find it ultra-satisfying, either. As I said before: I think the best work with Yoda was already done. It was more of a "for ol' times sake" kind of deal. However, in fairness, it's valid that they used a puppet, and even had Frank Oz puppeteering his doppelganger once more, because Mark Hamill worked with Oz on the original films, and moreover: that's the only Yoda Luke ever knew. But it still feels like they did it, in part, as yet more fan-baiting, nostalgia-cap-doffing "theatre". Basically, because they could. And in the words of a black-leather-jacket-wearing Jeff Goldblum: Iger: None of these attractions are ready yet, of course. But the park (Star Wars: Galaxy's Edge) will open with the basic tour you're about to take. And then other rides will come online six or twelve months after that. Absolutely spectacular designs. Spared no expense.
Disney lawyer: And we can charge anything we want. 2000 a day. 10,000 a day. And people will pay it. And then there's the merchandising and I can personally...
Iger: Donald, Donald... This park was not built to cater only for the super rich. Everyone in the world has the right to enjoy these rides and characters.
Disney lawyer: Sure, they will. What? We'll have a... coupon day or something.
Iger: He-ha-ha! He-ha-he-he! Ha, yes! Ha-he!Goldblum: Gee, the lack of humility before Lucas that's being displayed here, um... staggers me.
Disney lawyer: Well, thank you, Doctor Goldblum, but I think things are a little bit different than you and I had feared.
Goldblum: Yeah, yeah, I know, they're a lot worse.
Disney lawyer: Now, wait a second, now. We haven't even seen the park yet...
Iger: Donald, Donald, Donald... Let him talk. There's no reason... No, no. I want to hear every viewpoint. I really do.
Goldblum: Yeah-ee-yeah. Don't you see the danger, er, Bob, inherent in what you're doing here? Cinematic power is the most awesome force the planet's ever seen but you wield it like a... a... kid that's found his dad's gun.
Disney lawyer: It's hardly appropriate to start hurling generalisations...
Goldblum: If-if-if-if I may. Um... I'll tell you the problem with the cinematic power that you're... that you're using here. Ah, it didn't require any discipline to attain it. *simpering smile* You know... You read what others had done and you... and you took the next step. You didn't earn the knowledge for yourselves... so: you don't take any responsibility................. for it. You stood on the shoulders of geniuses, ah, to accomplish something as fast as you could, and before you even knew what you had, you-you patented it, and packaged it, and slapped it on a plastic lunch box, and now... *bangs table* You're selling it. You wanna sell it. Well... *breathes and holds body in an impossibly alpha way*
Iger: I-I don't think you're giving us our due credit. Our creative personnel have done things which nobody's ever done before.
Goldblum: Yeah! Yeah! But your creative personnel were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. |
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Post by Ingram on Dec 4, 2020 3:53:56 GMT
I don't find it ultra-satisfying, either. As I said before: I think the best work with Yoda was already done. It was more of a "for ol' times sake" kind of deal. However, in fairness, it's valid that they used a puppet, and even had Frank Oz puppeteering his doppelganger once more, because Mark Hamill worked with Oz on the original films, and moreover: that's the only Yoda Luke ever knew. But it still feels like they did it, in part, as yet more fan-baiting, nostalgia-cap-doffing "theatre". Basically, because they could. And in the words of a black-leather-jacket-wearing Jeff Goldblum: Iger: None of these attractions are ready yet, of course. But the park (Star Wars: Galaxy's Edge) will open with the basic tour you're about to take. And then other rides will come online six or twelve months after that. Absolutely spectacular designs. Spared no expense.
Disney lawyer: And we can charge anything we want. 2000 a day. 10,000 a day. And people will pay it. And then there's the merchandising and I can personally...
Iger: Donald, Donald... This park was not built to cater only for the super rich. Everyone in the world has the right to enjoy these rides and characters.
Disney lawyer: Sure, they will. What? We'll have a... coupon day or something.
Iger: He-ha-ha! He-ha-he-he! Ha, yes! Ha-he!Goldblum: Gee, the lack of humility before Lucas that's being displayed here, um... staggers me.
Disney lawyer: Well, thank you, Doctor Goldblum, but I think things are a little bit different than you and I had feared.
Goldblum: Yeah, yeah, I know, they're a lot worse.
Disney lawyer: Now, wait a second, now. We haven't even seen the park yet...
Iger: Donald, Donald, Donald... Let him talk. There's no reason... No, no. I want to hear every viewpoint. I really do.
Goldblum: Yeah-ee-yeah. Don't you see the danger, er, Bob, inherent in what you're doing here? Cinematic power is the most awesome force the planet's ever seen but you wield it like a... a... kid that's found his dad's gun.
Disney lawyer: It's hardly appropriate to start hurling generalisations...
Goldblum: If-if-if-if I may. Um... I'll tell you the problem with the cinematic power that you're... that you're using here. Ah, it didn't require any discipline to attain it. *simpering smile* You know... You read what others had done and you... and you took the next step. You didn't earn the knowledge for yourselves... so: you don't take any responsibility................. for it. You stood on the shoulders of geniuses, ah, to accomplish something as fast as you could, and before you even knew what you had, you-you patented it, and packaged it, and slapped it on a plastic lunch box, and now... *bangs table* You're selling it. You wanna sell it. Well... *breathes and holds body in an impossibly alpha way*
Iger: I-I don't think you're giving us our due credit. Our creative personnel have done things which nobody's ever done before.
Goldblum: Yeah! Yeah! But your creative personnel were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.That was an obscenely decadent surgery of an analogy. I approve.
Ingram, watching the ST: "It looks like we're out of a job" Cryo: "Don't you mean extinct?"
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Post by Moonshield on Dec 4, 2020 13:23:42 GMT
Can be a puppet, can be CGI, both can be made good or not.
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Post by Cryogenic on Dec 4, 2020 15:21:54 GMT
I don't find it ultra-satisfying, either. As I said before: I think the best work with Yoda was already done. It was more of a "for ol' times sake" kind of deal. However, in fairness, it's valid that they used a puppet, and even had Frank Oz puppeteering his doppelganger once more, because Mark Hamill worked with Oz on the original films, and moreover: that's the only Yoda Luke ever knew. But it still feels like they did it, in part, as yet more fan-baiting, nostalgia-cap-doffing "theatre". Basically, because they could. And in the words of a black-leather-jacket-wearing Jeff Goldblum: Iger: None of these attractions are ready yet, of course. But the park (Star Wars: Galaxy's Edge) will open with the basic tour you're about to take. And then other rides will come online six or twelve months after that. Absolutely spectacular designs. Spared no expense.
Disney lawyer: And we can charge anything we want. 2000 a day. 10,000 a day. And people will pay it. And then there's the merchandising and I can personally...
Iger: Donald, Donald... This park was not built to cater only for the super rich. Everyone in the world has the right to enjoy these rides and characters.
Disney lawyer: Sure, they will. What? We'll have a... coupon day or something.
Iger: He-ha-ha! He-ha-he-he! Ha, yes! Ha-he!Goldblum: Gee, the lack of humility before Lucas that's being displayed here, um... staggers me.
Disney lawyer: Well, thank you, Doctor Goldblum, but I think things are a little bit different than you and I had feared.
Goldblum: Yeah, yeah, I know, they're a lot worse.
Disney lawyer: Now, wait a second, now. We haven't even seen the park yet...
Iger: Donald, Donald, Donald... Let him talk. There's no reason... No, no. I want to hear every viewpoint. I really do.
Goldblum: Yeah-ee-yeah. Don't you see the danger, er, Bob, inherent in what you're doing here? Cinematic power is the most awesome force the planet's ever seen but you wield it like a... a... kid that's found his dad's gun.
Disney lawyer: It's hardly appropriate to start hurling generalisations...
Goldblum: If-if-if-if I may. Um... I'll tell you the problem with the cinematic power that you're... that you're using here. Ah, it didn't require any discipline to attain it. *simpering smile* You know... You read what others had done and you... and you took the next step. You didn't earn the knowledge for yourselves... so: you don't take any responsibility................. for it. You stood on the shoulders of geniuses, ah, to accomplish something as fast as you could, and before you even knew what you had, you-you patented it, and packaged it, and slapped it on a plastic lunch box, and now... *bangs table* You're selling it. You wanna sell it. Well... *breathes and holds body in an impossibly alpha way*
Iger: I-I don't think you're giving us our due credit. Our creative personnel have done things which nobody's ever done before.
Goldblum: Yeah! Yeah! But your creative personnel were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.That was an obscenely decadent surgery of an analogy. I approve. My work here is finished.  TFA adoration in 2015: Typical Star Wars fan: This is... this is magnificent.
Cryo: Oh, yeah. 'Ooooooh, aaaaaah.' That's how it always starts. But then later there's running, and uh-then... screaming. |
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Post by thephantomcalamari on Dec 4, 2020 19:10:47 GMT
The dichotomy of puupet and cgi creatures is that while the puppet is actually there,so is more integrated whith the enviroment, the CGI has far less movement limitation, allowing not only to be more expressive,but also more beliable as a living creature. Anyway as it has been said, the techniques used to bring Yoda to life where good to the time and his purpose and it reflects the stage of the character, Even I admit puppet Yoda is very expresive, I mean,the scene where he falls from Luke's back didn't become a meme for nothing, but if I had to choose I would say CGI Yoda, for the reasons mentioned earlier, Is the apareance that comes in my mind when I think on Yoda and the one that has more screentime on the movies. Regarding ST Yoda, if you see the making off, you will see that they really put effort on rplicating the OG puppet, the problem I see is the upper lip of his mouth, I feel it looks like he has bitten a lemon. At the same time, images like the above reveal the limitations of puppetry--that's clearly an expression made by a human hand manipulating foam latex, not by muscles moving a jawbone. It has charm, but it's the kind of charm you get from watching the Muppets. Like everyone else, I've always found that moment in the film amusing, but it's also Yoda at his less convincing as a biological organism (IMO). |
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Post by Cryogenic on Dec 4, 2020 19:17:10 GMT
The dichotomy of puupet and cgi creatures is that while the puppet is actually there,so is more integrated whith the enviroment, the CGI has far less movement limitation, allowing not only to be more expressive,but also more beliable as a living creature. Anyway as it has been said, the techniques used to bring Yoda to life where good to the time and his purpose and it reflects the stage of the character, Even I admit puppet Yoda is very expresive, I mean,the scene where he falls from Luke's back didn't become a meme for nothing, but if I had to choose I would say CGI Yoda, for the reasons mentioned earlier, Is the apareance that comes in my mind when I think on Yoda and the one that has more screentime on the movies. Regarding ST Yoda, if you see the making off, you will see that they really put effort on rplicating the OG puppet, the problem I see is the upper lip of his mouth, I feel it looks like he has bitten a lemon. At the same time, images like the above reveal the limitations of puppetry--that's clearly an expression made by a human hand manipulating foam latex, not by muscles moving a jawbone. It has charm, but it's the kind of charm you get from watching the Muppets. Like everyone else, I've always found that moment in the film amusing, but it's also Yoda at his less convincing as a biological organism (IMO). Hey... Star Wars was made for silly faces!   |
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Post by Ingram on Dec 4, 2020 23:11:05 GMT
Can be a puppet, can be CGI, both can be made good or not. Moon just straight up haiku'd this discussion. At the same time, images like the above reveal the limitations of puppetry--that's clearly an expression made by a human hand manipulating foam latex, not by muscles moving a jawbone. It has charm, but it's the kind of charm you get from watching the Muppets. Like everyone else, I've always found that moment in the film amusing, but it's also Yoda at his less convincing as a biological organism (IMO). Hey... Star Wars was made for silly faces! I like how with Poe you just went with his normal face. also, Padme there just kinda looks naughty and a little bit hot, but whatever... |
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Post by Cryogenic on Dec 4, 2020 23:29:00 GMT
Can be a puppet, can be CGI, both can be made good or not. Moon just straight up haiku'd this discussion. He does that! Isn't his normal face spectacular enough? And... LMAO. I didn't! I just found the thing and re-uploaded it. It's been kicking around a while; and the Palpatine one is ancient. Star Wars memes. They existed before Reddit! Oh, but I, I... ah... yeah, er... dammit... The husband: I shouldn't.
The wife: If you follow your thoughts through to conclusion, they will take us to a place we cannot go. |
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