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Post by jppiper on Nov 17, 2021 21:32:28 GMT
Cryogenic from youtube Shallow, disregarding of continuity, too small of a world, unrealistically fast pace in regards to the changing of political public opinion, cheesy, changing to more of a hard magic system by redefining the Force as a sentient entity with minions, lame. also obiwan is written brilliantly and the execution for a flawed mentor is perfect. I feel that Anakin should have the most interesting story here and simply doesn't. the execution of his character arc falls flat mostly because of the poor dialogue. PARTICULARLY in Episode 2, but in Episode 1&3 as well. Padme, I'm going to be honest. is a really boring character. ESPECIALLY after the Phantom Menace. she develops very little in AToTC and is a literal plot device in ROTS. Natalie Portman did her best.
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Post by Cryogenic on Nov 18, 2021 4:35:57 GMT
Cryogenic from youtube Shallow, disregarding of continuity, too small of a world, unrealistically fast pace in regards to the changing of political public opinion, cheesy, changing to more of a hard magic system by redefining the Force as a sentient entity with minions, lame. They give no examples to substantiate their complaints. I can't stand all this Gish Gallop crap. I'm not here to defend the prequels from every troll attack, day and night. But okay... How did Lucas "disregard" continuity in the prequels? I'd really like to know. He flipped certain things on their head, very deliberately, but there are no gaping continuity breaks between the prequels and the originals. To Lucas, it's all one giant movie, and he strove to make it as such. And the Original Trilogy wasn't very fleshed out to begin with. It was left purposely vague so Lucas could open things up in the backstory. "Too small of a world"? Coruscant, Naboo, an expanded Tatooine, Kamino, Geonosis, Utapau, Mustafar, Alderaan, a sprawling Senate Chamber? Too small? I can guess what this is really supposed to mean: Lucas drew too many connections between the characters and it's all too contrived or something. But it's mythology. All characters are interconnected and incredible connections are part and parcel of our own world. "Unrealistically fast pace in regards to the changing of political public opinion"? Read history, fool. Also: He assumes that public opinion drastically altered in the PT universe toward the Republic. What if it was always distrusting or ambivalent in the first place? That's kinda how the secession movement comes about. And in places like Tatooine, as established in Episode I, the Republic is a worthless institution. Amidala discovers the same thing and resolves to fix the situation on Naboo (a member world) herself: a prelude to the Clone Wars. "Cheesy". Uh-huh. He forgets that the basic template for Star Wars is Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon, blended with Lucas' own psychological eccentricities. Fortunately, some people get it: "Hard magic system", midi-chlorians, bla bla bla (copyright Greta Thunberg). Well, what do you say to this one? Lucas injected a drop of science into his mythological opus and that means the Force is "a sentient entity with minions"? Talk about an overreaction combined with underthinking it. The Force is still the Force. What changed is the idea the Force works on different scales; and even this wasn't really a change, but merely an alteration in emphasis. Moreover, Lucas introduced the midi-chlorians in Episode I primarily to stress the theme of symbiosis. Let's hear from The Maker himself on this point: "Lame"? A separate point? A bash of the midi-chlorians? The prequels are lame? Or is it just his coarsely-articulated, thinly-argued complaints? Again, quoting Lucas here: I think that about covers it. Oh, wait... Obi-Wan is written in service to Qui-Gon and then Anakin. Sorry, he's a supporting character. Anakin is far more fleshed out. Of course, this person is free to prefer any character they choose. It sounds like they simply prefer Obi-Wan's mentality over Anakin's. But that's missing the point of the story. I think the prequels do give short shrift to Padme. She diminishes a little bit in each movie and moves into Anakin's shadow. But that's actually a character arc in itself. She's not a boring character, just more interior compared to the boys. A kind of female stoic who becomes a little less stoically-composed in each installment. They overlook the fact that emotional repression is a big part of the prequel storyline. Which also explains, in part, why the dialogue is the way it is. Muted realism blended with comic book speech-bubble concision. And Episode II is a melodrama. As Lucas said, they all are, but he pushed things even more in that direction in the middle prequel. Because, in Star Wars, there are these bigger architectural or "meta" themes, too. Life as a stage. Emotions and desires as performance. Romance as a kind of political kabuki. Politics as grand farce. Unless you have the right blend of cynicism and idealism, perhaps it's impossible to grasp what Lucas was doing in the prequels. That's more a reflection on human nature and the way our society is constructed, not on George Lucas. I guess he was always destined to be misunderstood. |
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jtn90
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Post by jtn90 on Nov 18, 2021 10:38:09 GMT
I'm don't know much about character roles in a story, but is really Obi Wan a secondary character?, of course the main protagonist is Anakin,no doubt about that, but I always view Obi Wan as a deuteragonist/co protagonist(alongside Padme), specially in episode 2, he does too much in the trilogy to be just a secondary character. Unless main characters that are not the protagonist can be supporting characters. But yes, Anakin has a more clear and deep arc than Obi Wan, one thing is personal preference and other is objetivity, wich I find ironic how people call the prequels objetivelly bad when they just apply their personal preferences. |
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Post by Cryogenic on Nov 19, 2021 2:36:48 GMT
I'm don't know much about character roles in a story, but is really Obi Wan a secondary character?, of course the main protagonist is Anakin,no doubt about that, but I always view Obi Wan as a deuteragonist/co protagonist(alongside Padme), specially in episode 2, he does too much in the trilogy to be just a secondary character. Unless main characters that are not the protagonist can be supporting characters. Lucas originally felt the backstory might take the form of "the young days of Ben Kenobi", but this was clearly chucked out once Lucas began revising his screenplay for Episode I, when he shifted the Jedi protagonist from Obi-Wan to Qui-Gon. Although Obi-Wan plays a more prominent role in the latter prequels, and even usurps Anakin's role at the end of the story (it should have been Anakin tending to his wife and watching over his kids), I just don't think he's that developed of a character, personally. It's fair to say the prequels flesh him out a bit, however. Take what I'm saying with a pinch of salt, of course. Obviously, Lucas didn't abandon the concept entirely. The prequels are about the young days of Ben Kenobi. He just isn't really the focus or even the audience guide that Lucas thought he might originally be. I suppose a case can still be made for Episodes I and II. But TPM put a different slant on things. I guess, when you break it down, you could say that Qui-Gon and Amidala are the main characters of Episode I, while Obi-Wan and Anakin rise to the fore and become the main characters of II and III. So it's all a bit subjective, really. Anyway, yeah: Main characters that are not the protagonist can be thought of as supporting characters. Star Wars is a bit too busy with action and plot -- in my opinion -- for it to make a convincing character study outside of the primary mains or lead roles. Right. They fail to deal with what is laid out in front of them. It's like complaining that a pocketwatch isn't an egg timer. The character under the most intense examination is Anakin, not Obi-Wan. The other fallacy here is that a character should be likeable to be compelling. No, not really. They may have many undesirable traits and unfortunate tendencies. In fact, in a good character study, why would you want to be around them all the time? Do you like yourself 24 hours a day? People have the silliest standards. |
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Post by jppiper on Dec 8, 2021 2:02:45 GMT
Cryogenic on Saltier than Crait some moron took shots at the prequels even saying that he hasn't seen a Great SW Movie since 1983 and also said if lucas had Gary Kurtz (The producer of ANH and ROTJ another person overpraised and overhyped for making the OT work like Marcia and Lawrence and whose career never was big again after he left the franchise) The Prequels would have been great and what does this 41 Year old Male Do? curse him out with an F-Bomb long story short i've been banned from STC for a Week.
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Post by eljedicolombiano on Dec 9, 2021 21:53:15 GMT
Has nobody talked about the insanity of the so called Galactic Starcruiser hotel Disney plans to open in March? I honestly can't see how that thing will ever be financially viable or break-even. 6,000 dollars for a family of 4 for 2 days to be locked inside an air conditioned building?? Even worse its based on the ST, which kills any chance I ever visit. Besides, with that amount of money I'd much rather visit Europe.
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Post by jppiper on Dec 10, 2021 0:41:46 GMT
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Post by smittysgelato on Dec 15, 2021 0:17:42 GMT
I've been seeing complaints about Anakin as Force Ghost at the end of ROTJ popping up lately. Again, with the old complaints that "it doesn't make sense" because Episode III era Anakin was not morally pure.
Edit adding some thoughts:
For me, this is a very literal way of reading the metaphor( the metaphor being the restoration of youth as a representation of Anakin's restored soul from dark side to light side). The fact that his ghost takes on the Episode III era appearance of Anakin, for some, makes no sense because he was no longer morally pure at the time (he slaughtered the Tuskens in Episode II). To me, the metaphor of the restoration to youth need not be burdened by Anakin's biographical chronology. After all, a metaphor is a metaphor, it isn't literal. Saying that his ghost needs to take on the appearance of a version of himself that was morally pure at a particular stage in life is taking the metaphor too literally, but good luck explaining that to a literal minded person. They will probably think you're just dodging the issue.
Another edit: another way to put it is that the restoration to youth is a metaphor for Eternal life, i.e. the fountain of youth.
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Post by jppiper on Dec 15, 2021 2:00:26 GMT
smittysgelatohere's one the Ass kissing fans give to Marcia Lucas Gary Kurtz and Lawrence Kasdan as if they Created Star Wars and not Lucas!
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Post by smittysgelato on Dec 16, 2021 20:35:33 GMT
I think I have realized why we are all disturbed on some level by these "General Grievances." I think we all sense that there is a very real possibility that a Prequel/Special Edition hater may one day seize control of Lucasfilm and conduct a purge.
There. I just wrote the plot synopsis for the scariest horror movie of all time.
Do you all think I have accurately identified why it is difficult to look away from these General Grievances?
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Post by smittysgelato on Dec 22, 2021 22:34:32 GMT
I think people tend to take characters too literally. By this I mean, a character has to be the kind of person the audience would want to be in real life or the character sucks. Feminism is one of those ideologies that takes characters waaayyy tooo literally, thus the "girl boss," because that's the ideal way of being a woman for a feminist. Characters aren't real people. They express aspects of humanity, sure, but they're not real human personalities. That being said, Padme can do something like "lose the will to live," even if a lot of women don't actually do so in real life. Edit, additional thoughts: I guess what I am trying to say is that Padme is a very archetypal character, like a lot of characters in Star Wars. She's not an instruction manual about how to live your life. It seems like that's all people want now are characters as instruction manuals. I'd rather not sanitize creativity that way. |
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Post by jppiper on Dec 22, 2021 23:14:25 GMT
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Post by smittysgelato on Dec 22, 2021 23:27:09 GMT
I think I will spare myself the heartbreak ;P
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Post by jppiper on Dec 23, 2021 0:08:16 GMT
smittysgelatohere's one that pisses me off people thinking luke didn't care when his aunt and uncle were murdered along with the destruction of Alderaan
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Post by jppiper on Mar 17, 2022 20:48:03 GMT
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Post by smittysgelato on Mar 17, 2022 22:43:00 GMT
I'm actually enjoying this because it inadvertently points out why I love this character. eg. "He was thought to be a great man and a respectful jedi like Obi-Wan Kenobi mentioned to Luke in A New Hope. However, Anakin is revealed to be secretly a whiny self-centered brat in the prequels" It is pretty cool how you can be whiny, self-centered, and a great man at the same time! Humans are SO WEIRD!!!! "the dialogue is bizarre" YES, give me more bizarre dialogue like "I don't like sand." |
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Post by jppiper on Mar 17, 2022 23:21:04 GMT
smittysgelato im also getting tired of the prequels had a good story but badly executed talk
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Post by jppiper on Mar 20, 2022 22:25:51 GMT
Cryogenic more Lucas bashing courtesy of Saltier than Crait i like the message but disagree with lucas, he just wanted to sell toys and he's been an old crank for decades. the vision that the guys wrote for episode 5 is what we all wanted. my head canon is that lucas had minimal input on that one. he did have minimal input on Empire, the least of the entire trilogy. and it's the one he's said on record ( Moonshield's gonna love this) is the worst star wars movie. that's really all you need to know about lucas. grat for coming up with lore and aliens , absolutely does not understand storytelling that doesn't come out of a Joseph Campbell Book. Yeah lucas isn't the savior of star wars. had lucas been in charge, the original films would've looked like the prequels... great ideas bad execution. otherwise , when we look at Tolkien, i think tolkien better understood his work than lucas did-in which case SW was the product of more than just lucas alone. thus, it'd be always easier to adapt a LOTR than creating a new SW.
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Post by Ingram on Mar 21, 2022 2:59:05 GMT
Cryogenic more Lucas bashing courtesy of Saltier than Crait i like the message but disagree with lucas, he just wanted to sell toys and he's been an old crank for decades. the vision that the guys wrote for episode 5 is what we all wanted. my head canon is that lucas had minimal input on that one. he did have minimal input on Empire, the least of the entire trilogy. and it's the one he's said on record ( Moonshield 's gonna love this) is the worst star wars movie. that's really all you need to know about lucas. grat for coming up with lore and aliens , absolutely does not understand storytelling that doesn't come out of a Joseph Campbell Book. Yeah lucas isn't the savior of star wars. had lucas been in charge, the original films would've looked like the prequels... great ideas bad execution. otherwise , when we look at Tolkien, i think tolkien better understood his work than lucas did-in which case SW was the product of more than just lucas alone. thus, it'd be always easier to adapt a LOTR than creating a new SW. This almost comes off from start to finish like methodical trolling, as a series of belabored rhetorical buttons. A silver worm dangling on a hook. Also: I suppose that's a diplomatic way of putting it, sure. |
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Post by Cryogenic on Mar 21, 2022 3:32:44 GMT
Cryogenic more Lucas bashing courtesy of Saltier than Crait i like the message but disagree with lucas, he just wanted to sell toys and he's been an old crank for decades. the vision that the guys wrote for episode 5 is what we all wanted. my head canon is that lucas had minimal input on that one. he did have minimal input on Empire, the least of the entire trilogy. and it's the one he's said on record ( Moonshield 's gonna love this) is the worst star wars movie. that's really all you need to know about lucas. grat for coming up with lore and aliens , absolutely does not understand storytelling that doesn't come out of a Joseph Campbell Book. Yeah lucas isn't the savior of star wars. had lucas been in charge, the original films would've looked like the prequels... great ideas bad execution. otherwise , when we look at Tolkien, i think tolkien better understood his work than lucas did-in which case SW was the product of more than just lucas alone. thus, it'd be always easier to adapt a LOTR than creating a new SW. This almost comes off from start to finish like methodical trolling, as a series of belabored rhetorical buttons. A silver worm dangling on a hook. Basically. And I'm not gonna bite. Except to re-deploy these quotes I'm fond of: "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-- Jonathan Swift
"The man of talent is like a marksman who hits a mark others cannot hit; the man of genius is like a marksman who hits a mark they cannot even see to."
-- Arthur Schopenhauer |
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