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Post by tonyg on Nov 19, 2017 20:04:13 GMT
The idea of this thread came from the so widely discussed master-apprentice connection of Obi Wan and Anakin. Because it wasn't soft and smooth and some fans even mistaken it for conflicted although I don't think that in any friendship in the world everything is bright and not conflicted. Anyway, the opposition between the characters of master and apprentice shows how this relation is a test and large learning not only for the apprentice but also for the master and it is not only in the case of Obi Wan and Anakin but in most master-apprentices relationship showed directly or indirectly in the prequels.
Yoda and the younglings
Let's start with the more abstract but interesting relationship between Yoda and the younglings. Here the opposition is obvious: the oldest and the most experienced one is teaching the youngest and the most inexperienced ones. Some viewers even consider that as odd director’s decision but why? Is not Yoda the most appropriate teacher for those who still don’t know almost anything? Also the wonderful scene with the Obi Wan’s map in the Jedi temple shows that Yoda himself is still learning some things from his very young students and this is the biggest mastership that a teacher could achieve.
Yoda and Count Dooku
While it is not shown directly this relationship would be also interesting to analyze. While at first sight they have much in common (older, experienced, masters of sword fighting) there is one opposition that is obvious even before Dooku’s falling to the Dark Side and it is not the height, it is their attitude to the power. While Yoda is in the Council he acts like the wise advisor (Mace Windu is the chief) . Count Dooku on the other side is a born leader: is obvious that he always was such, and he feels his fate is to be a leader (that’s why his relationship with Sidious is very interesting to analyze also, Dooku wants to lead and not to follow). Also Dooku is a count, and from everything we see Yoda is one of the populace: absolutely extraordinary as individual but he never behave as some nobility (and this is even more evident in the time when Luke finds him on Dagobah). For me is interesting how all these ambitions, all this ‘I was born to rule’ attitude of the Count found the more down to Earth, simple, calm attitude of Yoda.
Count Dooku and Qui Gon
Someone would say that this relationship was based mostly on similarities and not on oppositions as both of them have their own way to the Council, the rules and the decisions they make. Yes and no. Qui Gon lacks the ambition of Dooku: he is ready to pay with his eventual career in the Council with the purpose to do what he thinks is right. In the same time Qui Gon is obviously sure that no matter that he agrees with the Council or not his path is in and with the Jedi Order and count Dooku doesn’t think so. When he sees that what is happening in the Order doesn’t suit him he quits (again, while this leads him in the end to the Dark Side, the quitting is not obligatory something that shows his falling). Dooku is typical individualist: in his world he is the most important person while is obvious that Qui Gon s altruist: in his world the others are so important that himself, even in some cases most important. Dooku is proud, cold and rational and Qui Go is warm and humble. Except Anakin, who I would call ardent, Qui Gon is the warmest person in the whole Order in those times.
I’ll write later about the other relationships.
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Post by tonyg on Dec 6, 2017 21:53:55 GMT
Qui Gon and Obi Wan.
This relationship is showed in detail in TPM so it is easy to discuss. it is obvious that while there is mutual respect between the master and the apprentice. their attitude to the power, order and hierarchy is different and it has its impact even in their relationship: Obi Wan is stick to the rules in the most literal way: if this is the rule that exists, we would follow it no matter that it actually breaks the principle that originated it. If the Council decides something we should follow it without question because this is how these things work.
Qui Gon is obviously in the other pole: he follows the principle even if it looks like breaks the literal rule. Of course he doesn't do that always but only where is a dilemma (exactly in these moments Obi Wan would strictly follow the rule and Qui Gon would think of something different, original to follow the Jedi ways which are more important for him). Qui Gon is capable to follow orders but when he thinks that they are against the right thing to do, he is trying to object them (as in the case of Anakin training) even with the price of his own 'career'.
Also, there is another big difference between them: Obi Wan is fixed in the big things and Qui Gon pay attention to the small insignificant details (and beings) knowing that they are important for the ways of the force. I would interpret his " don't fix in the future for the expense of the moment' thing exactly that: not that the future is not important but ignoring the actual moments means ignoring these small detail that lead to big things (discovering Anakin and so on). Till the end of the PT Obi Wan is fixed on 'doing the greater good' and in some moments this attitude leads to huge mistakes.
At first sight, after describing this someone would think that they should be in constant conflict but they are not, for two main factors: first, Obi Wan would obey to his master no matter how different are their opinions because this is the way the things work (he opposes only once to him) and second, exactly for being so soft and calm person, Qui Gon would accept this more let say it 'rough' attitudes to the world that Obi Wan has. And it is what lacks in the relationship between Anakin and Obi Wan and that's why it is uneasy while obviously they feel each other like brothers.
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Post by tonyg on Dec 17, 2017 13:09:12 GMT
Last but not least, Obi Wan and Anakin. I think this relationship is misinterpreted by many fans exactly for the type of oppositions described above, only in Obi Wan and Anakin's bond there are enough of them. May fans think that good friends (as they were introduced in ANH) means that there are no conflicts, and that also means the same ways of thinking. Not at all. In many occasions the friends let's say it give to each other what the other is missing and they are capable to do it because they are different. so in the case of Obi Wan ad Anakin. The first one is calm, rational and stick to the rules, the second is impulsive, impatient and do what he thinks is right. So, yes, such friendship is uneasy, especially in the beginning when both sides are still immature. Later, when they both matured they learn how to deal better with such problems and little conflicts. Of course, that was not enough to prevent some huge mistakes in the end, yes, by both sides. Anyway, my point is this relationship as is in the others, is test more for the master than for the apprentice, exactly for these oppositions in the characters.
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Post by Subtext Mining on Jan 7, 2018 19:37:26 GMT
One of the compelling fairy tale aspects of the mentor/apprentice dynamics in this story is the tragedy of devotion to friendship and brotherhood caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. The biggest example; Obi-Wan swore to take Anakin as his Padawan out of devotion to Qui-Gon. And over the course of 13 years they did become best friends and brothers. But unfortunately a time came for a final stand between the two because of idealogical differences.  And bad decisions were compounded by more bad decisions until we ended up with Vader in his suit and Obi-Wan hiding on Tatooine. Pretty heavy. Not many other modern stories quite like it. |
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Post by Subtext Mining on Sept 14, 2019 6:16:58 GMT
I think one of the saga's greatest examples of a Master learning from a student is another one that is off-screen: Qui-Gon and Yoda  While maybe not under the formal definition of Master and Apprentice, it’s amazing how the independent, more open-minded Jedi who brought about his fair share of conflict with the Council, and went off to do his own thing so often, is the one who learned the obscure discipline that was such an important element in keeping the Jedi line and much of it's knowledge from extinction. Qui-Gon was a Jedi with the audacity to live according to his own individual sense of right and wrong based more on discernment than blanket rigidity, from living in accordance with the specific moment rather than the fixating on the past or focusing to heavily on the future. And after 25,000 years of the Jedi way and over 800 years of living it, leave it to the rogue to show Master Yoda there is still always more to learn of the Force. This of course also includes the reunion of Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan.  In one of their last conversations, Qui-Gon told Obi-Wan that he was a much wiser man than he. Now, the student who criticized his master for defying the Council and not following the Jedi Code is seeing the wisdom and value in doing what one feels they must and following their own convictions. Something Yoda & Obi-Wan also later saw in Luke. In a cuationary tale about indoctrination and rigidity, we see Qui-Gon was on to something. It turned out there were other valuable ways to go about one's walk with the Force than just through the established Jedi lens. And in the end, they all see that Qui-Gon was on to something about Anakin as well  All in all, I think the most valuable lessons Yoda & Obi-Wan learned during thier training with Qui-Gon was how to resolve some of the most important conflicts; the ones within themselves. And what Tony said about the difference between Qui-Gon and Dooku is right. Dooku’s independent disposition and prideful entitlement eventually led into Palpatine's "larger view of the Force" and thus down a dark path, while only the wisdom & humility of Qui-Gon could prepare him for such a journey as he went on. |
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Post by Alexrd on Sept 15, 2019 22:58:26 GMT
While maybe not under the formal definition of Master and Apprentice, it’s amazing how the independent, more open-minded Jedi who brought about his fair share of conflict with the Council, and went off to do his own thing so often, is the one who learned the obscure discipline that was such an important element in keeping the Jedi line and much of it's knowledge from extinction. Qui-Gon was a Jedi with the audacity to live according to his own individual sense of right and wrong based more on discernment than blanket rigidity, from living in accordance with the specific moment rather than the fixating on the past or focusing to heavily on the future. And after 25,000 years of the Jedi way and over 800 years of living it, leave it to the rogue to show Master Yoda there is still always more to learn of the Force. I see this argument brought up a lot, but most seem to forget that correlation doesn't mean causation. Qui-Gon did end up learning how to perserve one's identity after death, but there's nothing indicating that it was something only Qui-Gon could discover. In fact, the evidence is that Qui-Gon learned from a Shaman of the Whills. It's not something he came by due to him being a maverick. If it is, it was never established. Also, Qui-Gon didn't live by any personal sense of right and wrong. He knew what was right and wrong, and that knowledge is in accordance with the Jedi way. What's right and wrong to Qui-Gon is also what's right and wrong for the Jedi. You don't see Qui-Gon discarding Jedi wisdom or ignoring the Jedi rules. The Jedi don't advocate focusing too much on the past, present or future. Like Qui-Gon clarifies to Obi-Wan, a Jedi is mindful of the future (and present or past), but not at the expense of the rest. Another example is when the issue of Anakin being trained is brought up. He's the first to recognize that it might be difficult due to his age. He knows why someone that old shouldn't begin Jedi training. But he insists upon it because he believes that Anakin's destiny is worth the risk. In other words, he knows it's wrong in the moment but he believes it's right for the future. Regarding Yoda, I saw nothing in his portrayal that supports the idea that he believed there was nothing more to learn about the Force. |
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Post by Subtext Mining on Jul 20, 2023 11:06:26 GMT
All I set out to say was it can seem Qui-Gon was chosen among the rest of the Jedi to be taught this ability by the Whills because of his particular unique disposition and outlook. And that there's a certain irony that he, who rubbed up against the Council so much, was the one who played such a vital role in helping it survive the dark times. And I feel he was lead to it by following a sequence of events that most other Jedi would have turned away from at some point, due largely probably to their being more by-the-book.
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Post by Subtext Mining on Jul 20, 2023 11:06:56 GMT
Interesting that Obi-Wan never had another Padawan after Anakin  |
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