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Post by Cryogenic on Aug 4, 2020 19:22:17 GMT
Little spin-off discussion here from another thread. I thought it would be interesting to discuss the notion that "Return Of The Jedi" paved the way for the PT, and is, in effect, "the first prequel". Add whatever thoughts, images, ideas, etc., you may have, or that may occur, either now or when you next plumb the beauties of the OT. I'll begin in a somewhat long-winded fashion, but feel free to jump in with anything you consider relevant regarding the basic premise. The following post is written in something of a free-form style. Please don't feel bound to that style or the content therein. I am just outlining the basic premise in mosaic form. "RotJ is the first prequel." Cryo and I have been essentially saying that for at least 4 years now. I think the way I first worded my observation was something along the lines of, "As early as the second half of ESB and definitely by RotJ, we see SW evolving into what would be Lucas' M.O. for the prequels." *I can't remember if Cryo had already been saying that, or if he agreed with me and elaborated. I don't recall the exact conversation, but I think we did discuss it. I've certainly ruminated on the notion that you can see the first real glinting of "Coruscant" -- i.e., the PT -- in ROTJ. Perhaps the Dagobah cave constitutes the first dawning awareness of the prequels, or the PT storyline, as Luke enters and encounters a vision of Vader, and then (when the film cuts back to him) has a vision of his friends in danger, describing what he saw to Yoda (a major prequel Jedi) as "a city in the clouds". And what is "a city in the clouds", if not Coruscant at the start of AOTC? (Intriguingly, it's even initially shown "upside-down", just as Luke has this vision while training upside-down). To that end, Coruscant even literally shows up in the Special Edition celebration montage of ROTJ, while Naboo was added to the montage for the 2004 DVD release (and, of course, continues to appear alongside Coruscant and Tatooine (the core planets of TPM), in addition to Cloud City (the most prequel-like of the OT locations), in subsequent versions). Technically, because Gungans are present in that same closing montage, ROTJ (the end of the Lucas Saga) features Gungans and Ewoks now -- which is really sticking it in haters' faces! I remember being a little excited about noticing some neat connections between AOTC and ROTJ, in particular, before. I shall briefly parse some of them out, so we can glimpse how strong this relationship is. Namely, in both films, we have an overt "return" motif (Luke returns to Tatooine in ROTJ, Amidala returns to Coruscant, then Naboo, and Anakin returns to Tatooine in AOTC), the male Skywalker protagonist (and also the female one) on a swoop bike, the pulp-sublime moment of a female Skywalker/Naberrie getting their tummy exposed, the equally pulp-sublime moment of that self-same Skywalker/Naberrie hitting or choking a nasty creature with a chain ("this alarming chain of events"), the Death Star (or *a* Death Star) showing up as a red hologram, moonlit conversations between the male and female Skywalkers/Naberries, and perhaps most satisfyingly: Nature in decline and rebirth, as a Skywalker loses an arm and marries at a lake in fading sunlight, contrasted or counter-pointed by nature beginning to burst back to life at the end of that Skywalker's arc, symbolised by the forest moon of Endor (it is essentially vanquished, or in a pronounced period of aestivation/acquiescence, in Eps. III, IV, and V: the "inner" ring). That same Skywalker is subsequently stripped of his robotic hand (the one Padme grasps and the one Anakin chokes her with) by his son -- a weird act of father-son vengeance after his daddy removed his son's hand in the previous movie! This is also some kind of liberating act, since it symbolically rescues Anakin from clinging to the past (and allows Luke to "grasp" the commonality between himself and Anakin), and Anakin is now free to move beyond his crimes and his naive "grasp" of politics/Empire. So, in a way, AOTC and ROTJ, as a "Force Dyad", are the most important films of the Lucas Saga. But keeping exclusively with ROTJ and the premise of the thread: ROTJ is really the installment where the prequels begin to poke through beyond the horizon, especially with respect to the tragic circumstances between the "holy triad" of Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Padme. We have Obi-Wan for the first time admitting (on some level) that he failed with Anakin and that he consequently doomed the galaxy to tyranny (cut line that I wish had been retained: "My pride has had terrible consequences for the galaxy"), while Luke echoes Qui-Gon in a number of respects, intuits that Leia is his sister, echoes Padme's insistence that there is "still good" in Anakin, and even utters his name for the first time in his own trilogy. Even Vader obliquely references Padme in the wistful line: "Obi-Wan once thought as you do" (can be read as a reference to the climactic events on Mustafar). There is also that discussion between Luke and Leia concerning their "real" mother, suggesting some gain in importance for Padme's role in the story (though not yet named), and Leia furnishes us with a description of Padme that the PT most certainly follows up on: "She was very beautiful. Kind... but sad." That latter point, BTW: Most people don't seem to get that Padme is shown as gloomy and melancholic from the very beginning. She didn't just learn to show sadness in ROTS. From the moment the Trade Federation invades her planet, she is shown to be forlorn and indecisive; even a little lost. Perhaps Anakin is even attracted to her for this subtextual reason. She quietly displays a kind of beautiful, mysterious resignation; perhaps appealing to the interior gloom of Anakin himself. Lastly, a note on special effects and how they tie into the artistry of the saga and this premise: In "From Star Wars To Jedi: The Making Of A Saga", there are several bits where Lucas explains that visual and special effects have already advanced a fair degree since the original film, and that people's visual processing has been on an upward trend. He hints that he has made it his aim to become a little more out-there with each film, implicitly making ROTJ something of an appetiser for the forthcoming Prequel Trilogy: Interestingly, even the title of the documentary implies an overarching journey: a blossoming of the mythic dreamspace and the creative intellect as we shift from "Star Wars" (or simply wars) to lofty notions of "Jedi" Knighthood. In the same title, the complete suite of films is also dubbed "a saga" for one of the first times, pressing into the public consciousness the idea that the films form one unified mythic chronicle: a complete artistic expression. Lucas would follow up on this at the end of his prequel odyssey, minting Star Wars as "The Tragedy Of Darth Vader" after the completion of Episode III. In ROTJ, on multiple planes, it seems that the prequel caldera was bubbling away for the first time, as a deeper vision for Lucas' space-based opus began to well up to the surface. In summary: - The name "Anakin Skywalker" is mentioned for the first time in ROTJ. - Obi-Wan ruefully reflects on the part he played in losing Anakin to the Dark Side. - Luke echoes Qui-Gon and Padme, the discoverer of Anakin and his eventual wife, and Luke's own mother, respectively. - Luke discovers his connection to Leia, and she to him, and to Vader/Anakin. - Vader makes a kind of side reference in dialogue to Padme. - ROTJ is the only OT movie to have a pronounced feeling of verdant nature and jolly Earth-mirth (Endor). In the PT, we get the lush, pastoral beauty of Naboo. - Lucas explores some of his pulp/erotic art fascinations in ROTJ, which he will return to in AOTC. - Lucas' visual philosophy is uniquely explained in a behind-the-scenes documentary; his words and even the documentary's title have great relevance for the production/realisation of the PT. In ROTJ, we also: - See Palpatine, the arch manipulator of Anakin and the other characters of the PT, "in the flesh" for the first time. - See Yoda passing away (an event heightened considerably once the backstory of the Jedi is revealed in the PT). - Get something of a digressive first act at Jabba's Palace, much as Lucas described Episodes I and II as "jazz riffs". - Get to see the natives helping our heroes out (as the Gungans do in TPM) and a slightly more pronounced emphasis on visual comedy and action silliness (Ewoks, Battle Droids). - Get some intense visuals throughout (storming a bunker while a space battle rages and three characters are involved in a duel of swords and sensations -- echoed in TPM's ambitious finale). - Get a more confident, delineated sense of our heroes (and villains) as flawed buccaneers and reformers with a tinge (or sometimes more than a tinge) of darkness and sadness within them. - Corusant and Naboo! Coruscant and Naboo! How I love me some Corusant and Naboo! This also concludes my Ric Olie quotient for the month.
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Post by Somny on Aug 4, 2020 22:52:40 GMT
Beautiful elucidation of the visual, narrative and tonal ties between ROTJ and the PT, Cryogenic . It definitely covers most of and certainly far more than what immediately came to my mind when this whole matter was initially raised. It's a highly compelling notion and one that "somehow, I've always known."
And let's not overlook that ROTJ's densely intercut climax with three distinct planes of action (space battle, ground battle and lightsaber duel) is matched closest by TPM's climax of four (space battle, ground battle, lightsaber duel and palace invasion). They're also closely matched in terms of dramatic intensity owing to the sheer montagic might of Lucas and his editors. It's a striking synthesis of writing and editorial extremely distinctive in modern filmmaking (even by absolutely contemporary standards) and likely struck in the conceiving stage of the film. All told, the emphasis on intercutting, particularly in these climactic sequences, is one of my most favorite aspects of the saga but one that is rarely, if ever, talked about or elaborated upon.
EDIT: Yikes! One of Cryo's list items made a passing mention of my latter point. What's worse - stealing thunder or repeating it?
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Post by emperorferus on Aug 4, 2020 23:28:07 GMT
I would add that though it was not necessarily planned that way back in 1983, Return of the Jedi is the first Star Wars film to invoke the Chosen One prophecy. Specifically, it sees the prophecy’s fulfillment while teasing the backstory behind Anakin’s fall and what lied beneath the layers of Vader’s misery, hate, and darkness.
A small clue of this, as was mentioned by others here before me, is that ROTJ is the first film where Anakin is mentioned by name, and his backstory is alluded to by Obi-Wan. Moreover, Luke and Leia’s mother was never hinted at in ANH or TESB, so her mention in ROTJ also seems like a retroactive teaser for the PT.
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Post by Cryogenic on Aug 5, 2020 3:29:37 GMT
Beautiful elucidation of the visual, narrative and tonal ties between ROTJ and the PT, Cryogenic . It definitely covers most of and certainly far more than what immediately came to my mind when this whole matter was initially raised. It's a highly compelling notion and one that "somehow, I've always known." Ha! Perfect quote. And thank you. Not completely overlooked. I included a summary/notes section at the bottom, which makes mention of that outstanding link between the "bookends". That said, it was a late addition, edited in after the fact, George Lucas-style. EDIT: I now see your edit! Ha! No worries. If you gotta steal, steal from the best... Wait! Too arrogant, even for me. Ah, to hell with it. Very nice! I think the four-tiled approach in TPM's climactic reckoning is a bit excessive, but also very bold and very Lucas. As he famously says in "The Beginning": O, RLY? A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.... What's also interesting is how the movie, just prior to that moment, is described by Lucas as "disjointed". Yet, in the major battle scene between the Gungans and the Battle Droids, you have a sort of "meta" clash between those mechanically-jointed ant-men and the organic, fluidic tadpole people. The film's very aesthetic clashing in that whole section is well-symbolised by Jar Jar doing battle with the Battle Droid that gets attached to his leg. "Get off! Get off!" I love your phrasing: "montagic might". What a keeper! The one thing that Lucas undeniably excels at is the big conceptual stuff, followed by the intercutting cojones to pull off his grand ideas in the editing stage. Even as Lucas laments in the grainy dark that he may have "gone too far in a few places", you can detect a tinge of nervous pride. Even a kind of wry amusement. He had every intention of developing an explosive and truly insane finale. Indeed, every Star Wars movie has a fantastic, visceral, and gripping final act. If Acts I and II are sometimes a bit cautious and restrained, all that caution and restraint is thrown into the wood chipper and set on fire in Act III. The crazy, plate-juggling climax to TPM was bound to astound and surprise even its maker, given what Lucas says about pushing himself, and about pushing the audience, in "From Star Wars To Jedi: The Making Of A Saga". If Star Wars has any right to claim the space opera badge all for itself, then those third acts do a lot of Olympic running, vaulting, and shot-putting to justify the arrogation of the term. Even when a pronounced degree of silliness kicks in with the Ewok ground battle, the film is never less than a whirling, mad-cap, visionary feast: an intense tragicomic action bricolage. People fail to see how supple and renewing Star Wars is beneath its robust (if, at times, its tad oppressive) formalism and classical structural concerns. Yet, again, it was really ROTJ that set this template -- made multiple lines of intersecting operatic action (based on solid Eisensteinian montage principles) a rich and sexy thing. I would add that though it was not necessarily planned that way back in 1983, Return of the Jedi is the first Star Wars film to invoke the Chosen One prophecy. Specifically, it sees the prophecy’s fulfillment while teasing the backstory behind Anakin’s fall and what lied beneath the layers of Vader’s misery, hate, and darkness. Indeed. It even feels a touch prophetic and pre-reckoned in the film. An upgraded, matured Luke returns to Tatooine ("returning" being something of a profound mythic/religious concept in itself), while Yoda and Obi-Wan explicitly tell Luke that he must return to the maw of danger and "face Darth Vader again, and "only then" will he truly be a Jedi. The very powerful yet fleeting use of the twin suns outside of Jabba's Palace, in that brief frog-slurping shot (which itself anticipates the tongue gag of Jar Jar grabbing the fruit, and being stopped by Qui-Gon, at Anakin's home), also hints at "the harmony of the spheres" and the quiet abundance of greater forces in the universe. The sun sets on every "empire" in the end. "Retroactive teaser". Hmm, I like that! One crucial element I forgot to mention is Obi-Wan's meme-worthy deployment of his now-famous "from a certain point of view" rationalisation. This concept is employed to profound effect in the PT. Not only do we learn where Obi-Wan got it from (from Qui-Gon, who may have got it from Dooku), but Palpatine himself uses it to snag Anakin in the (very meta) opera scene in ROTS. It even became the basis of an essay on Palpatine in a book extolling Star Wars for its philosophical dimensions in 2005. Thanks originally to mandragora for posting this extract at the start of her delightful thread on TFN in 2005: The book is: "Star Wars And Philosophy: More Powerful Than You Can Possibly Imagine", edited by Kevin S. Decker, Jason T. Eberl, and William Irwin. The essay within the book is: "A Certain Point Of View", by Shanti Fader, p. 195 So, as you can see, ROTJ bequeathed quite a legacy onto Star Wars, and a good deal of the saga extends very much from it.
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Post by Subtext Mining on Aug 5, 2020 12:41:55 GMT
Touching back on ESB again, here we also see Lucas introducing what will be a staple of the PT; the difficult to reconcile dilemma, or, conflict of duty.
Should Luke leave before completing his training to save his friends?
Should Lando betray his friends to the Empire to keep his citizens and business safe?
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Post by Moonshield on Aug 5, 2020 14:48:20 GMT
I don't understand why it is criticized. "Return of the Jedi" is a bright, fantastic movie, with a great conclusion. Ewoks? A pathetic life-form, which is important.
The Emperor makes the same mistake two times: he doesn't count the pathetic lifeform and fails. This is one of the main difference between good and evil: for the good every lifeform is important, for the evil a lot of lifeforms deserves only disdain.
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Post by Somny on Aug 5, 2020 16:41:54 GMT
It's a sentiment that's certainly been seized upon by many detractors of the PT (looking at you, RLM). But while the comments and atmosphere from that portion of the documentary seem to suggest grave apprehension and dread from the crew (not just Lucas), it all strikes me as basically innocuous and perhaps as a kind of necessary growing pain when you consider that at last year's Celebration, during a panel celebrating the 20th anniversary of TPM, a video of Lucas addressing everyone in the audience was played and included him saying, "[TPM's] one of my favorite movies."
Lucas' statement about his own preference brings me to an ROTJ-related point: One of the reasons I've been as sympathetic to ROTJ compared to the other chapters of the OT for as long as I have, despite its prevalent reputation as a lesser OT film (bollocks!), is that I believe Lucas exercised greater control over the direction of the film compared to TESB and the production-troubled ANH. I feel that Lucas' satisfaction with his work is positively related to the amount of freedom and control he's had over the filmmaking process. Based on what he's said in countless interviews about overcoming technical limitations, I don't think it's hard to imagine Lucas disagreeing with this idea. This may be why ROTJ resembles so much of the PT, through and through. In fact, I recall reading that Lucas practically directed the throne room sequence himself. Even if I'm wrong on that point (I haven't read Rinzler's The Making of Return of the Jedi), ROTJ seems very much a result of Lucas operating in a more actualized, unrestricted mode. He's often talked about how he was increasingly finding his groove step-by-step over the course of making the earlier trilogy. It seems that by the time he got to ROTJ, he was firmly nestled.
In any case, my ears always perk up whenever certain filmmakers talk about select entries in their oeuvre in (modestly) reverent terms. I appreciate knowing what's the best they have to offer, especially when it comes straight from the horse's mouth. "This is a shortcut... I think."
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Post by Cryogenic on Aug 10, 2020 20:10:41 GMT
GIANT ASTEROID ALERT! This response will be a three-parter! I decided to break it into three parts for enhanced readability -- like Lucas claiming to have broken Star Wars into three movies! I think this is my most epic response yet on Naberrie Fields (or anywhere?). Especially if I'd posted it as a single piece. The parts are not of an even size, however. The first part is more of an overture. Once this first part is out of the way (dealing with prequel links and rhymes within TESB), I will get straight on with my main response concerning ROTJ. The overture is a little off-topic, but I started this whole thread and I couldn't help myself. Here we go... Touching back on ESB again, here we also see Lucas introducing what will be a staple of the PT; the difficult to reconcile dilemma, or, conflict of duty. Should Luke leave before completing his training to save his friends? Should Lando betray his friends to the Empire to keep his citizens and business safe? Good catch. The middles deal more strongly in moral ambiguity than their adjoining brethren. That staple is also one of a plethora of motifs and themes introduced or otherwise expanded upon in TESB that will be reprised in the PT. I wrote a small (but by no means exhaustive) list: - The gorgeous sunset imagery on Cloud City. This type of imagery will show up to visually-stunning effect in the prequels, especially AOTC (the prequel middle), and carry with it tons of potent symbolism. - Vader tempting Luke. Vader tempts Luke to join the Dark Side, much as Dooku tempts Obi-Wan, Palpatine tempts Anakin, and Anakin tempts Padme. Only one of these temptations is actually successful. I guess your charge has to really be desperate to join you. - Yoda testing Luke. When Luke, a prospective Jedi, first meets Yoda, Yoda plays the fool, and Luke attempts to hurry him away. This motif is revisited in TPM when Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan meet Jar Jar in the forests of Naboo. One may be more deliberate than the other, yet the Jedi are quick to show annoyance in both situations, giving a measure of their detachment from the Living Force. In Qui-Gon's case, this is quite ironic. Though he does warm up to Jar Jar a little later. - The similitude between Lando and Dooku. Two mysterious, cape-wearing figures with murky allegiances, formerly allies of our heroes. They each show up in the final act of the movie and turn out to be answering to powerful, treacherous Sith Lords. Indeed, one of them is a Sith and meets a sticky end in the next film; while the other manages to defy the Sith and side with the Rebellion and becomes a General in the next film. This inversion could be considered emblematic of the difference in the focus and ultimate trajectory of the two trilogies. - A big land battle. The middle installments each have an epic land conflagration between a heavily-armed invading force and a smaller force that flees a subterranean base. In TESB, the "good guys" are fleeing. In AOTC, the "good guys" are the aggressors. These land battles are also flipped in their placement, happening at the start and the end of the film respectively. Another notable feature is how both Skywalkers size up weak points in their enemies' imposing machinery very easily (Luke tells the snowspeeder team to "Go for the legs" of the AT-ATs, while Anakin tells the gunship pilot to "Aim right above the fuel cells" of a stationed spacecraft). - Splitting up. The middle installments utilise a slightly more ambitious plot structure. After an opening act with everyone together, our heroes are split up on separate journeys. In each, there is a side quest happening in parallel to the main story. In the middle of the main story, a Skywalker receives a powerful vision of their loved ones in danger and decides to effect a rescue. The heroes meet back up at the end and the Skywalker is maimed. In TESB, Han is also frozen, though "in a state of perfect hibernation". At the end of AOTC, Anakin and Padme secretly get married and begin a long, complicated process of existential hibernation. - Smoke/fog. A fair amount of smoke and fog and beclouding occurs in the middle installments. In TESB, all three major planets are sheafed in heavy clouds, while the probe droid impacting the surface of Hoth whips up a dense plume of snow, the belly of the space slug limits visibility for Han and Leia (and confuses their senses), and Luke crash-lands on Dagobah after plunging through thick atmosphere. When Luke and Vader duel on Cloud City, the freezing chamber becomes a third character, with smoke providing a fetid, dream-like quality. In AOTC, we descend into thick cloud coverage in the opening shot, there's the hot and sticky droid factory on Geonosis, a huge expanse of dust that is whipped up in the ensuing battle (after Yoda orders an attack on a fleeing ship), and we have ominous talk of the Jedi's vision becoming "clouded". - Boba Fett subplot. A mysterious hunter of Han Solo in TESB, Boba is revealed to have an origin that ties into the Clone Wars in AOTC. This also represents an expansion of the father-son motif, which was seemingly baked into the DNA of Star Wars from the beginning (the first draft of the first screenplay begins with a scene where a father is hastily leaving home with his two sons; the younger son is ruthlessly sliced down by a Sith warrior before they escape). - Looking for clues. When the Millennium Falcon is discovered to "no longer appear" on the Empire's scopes, Vader enlists the help of several bounty hunters to find their "lost ship". The queen's ship also goes missing and Sidious brings Maul into the picture to find it in TPM. Similarly, in AOTC, Obi-Wan goes to an old friend for a clue to the origins/whereabouts of the bounty hunter that shot Zam Wesell dead -- his only link being a "toxic dart" (Vader also describes Leia, the Cosmic Mother of the saga with a sharp tongue, as his "only link" to finding the Rebels' hidden base in ANH). - Hiding with some camouflage. Flowing neatly from the preceding motif, a spaceship in both AOTC and TESB manages to hide itself from the bad guys by laying low. In the latter, the bad guy has learned the trick after it was done to him and his father in the former. The pursued turns into the pursuer. - Asteroid chase. The middle installments each have a tense chase between asteroids. In both sequences, a larger asteroid is briefly flown into for cover. Following this procedure, to the enemy it appears that the "good guys" have been destroyed (Obi-Wan jettisons the spare part canisters, Han and Leia hide inside the space slug). But some in the Empire know better. It is unclear whether Jango really thought his Jedi pursuer had been destroyed or was happily leading him into a trap. - Damaged hyperdrive. Kind of a sneaky one, but the damaged hyperdrive subplot of TESB is reused in TPM when our heroes become stranded on Tatooine. This also creates a weird tension in the trilogies between two very different ships and container forms (a gleaming, curvilinear luxury chrome transport with a pearlescent interior vs. the kit-bashed "hunk of junk" that is a refuge to our heroes for an entire trilogy). - Love declaration in a tense situation. The middle installments of the OT and PT feature love plots that culminate in love being declared by the female protagonists as things seem hopeless. Both romances are marked by the female playing hard-to-get in their early stages, while their male suitors exhibit a mixture of brash charm and petulant arrogance; and then a certain ripening occurs in the middle, as the females begin to melt and the males relax their overtures. Though Padme takes longer to fold than Leia -- and, of course, the consequences of falling in love (in secret) are more dire in the PT storyline. - Threepio getting rearranged. Again, in the middle installments of the Lucas Saga, poor C-3PO has a difficult time when he stumbles into a hidden industrial area, falling to Artoo (no pun intended) in both instances to ultimately set him back together. Indeed, in AOTC, Artoo actually plays a role in the dismemberment process. Lucas has described these twin occurrences as Cubist -- essentially, a meta-commentary on the state of Anakin and the galaxy, and in some ways, Star Wars itself. - Sith invading a heavenly realm. Vader is revealed to be at Cloud City when doors part horizontally, like stage curtains, to show him waiting for our heroes at the head of a table. In TPM, doors part horizontally revealing Maul, who is waiting to engage the Jedi in fateful combat, just ahead of where everyone is moving towards. Padme coolly says, "We'll take the long way", while our OT heroes are essentially snookered. Interestingly, in ROTJ, Leia suggests going around the Imperial troops the Rebels come across on Endor, but Luke says, "It'll take time." Luke also cautions Han to take care of the situation quietly, and Han quips, "Hey, it's me." When Anakin jumps back into the elevator in ROTS, Obi-Wan is startled and says, "Oh, it's you." - Cave symbolism. Cave symbolism is particularly dominant in the PT, and first finds a strong expression in TESB. Every dramatic situation in the Kershner film seems to be happening in a cave of some sort. And then the line that craftily repudiates the idea that the film itself (or the saga entire) is a cave: "This is no cave." Yet there's an element (arguably) of protesting too much. Caves are everywhere. Anakin and Luke (and Rey) are even introduced living in cave-like homes. - Pained expressions. Han being tortured by Vader and subsequently frozen in carbonite anticipates Anakin's visions of Padme crying out in pain and subsequently falling silent in ROTS. A sense of interpersonal tragedy and gloom enters the saga with TESB. In addition, TESB sort of made Star Wars into a saga, fit to to wear the name. - Skywalkers feeling cold. Luke remarks he feels cold outside of the tree cave on Dagobah to Yoda. Similarly, when asked by Yoda how he feels in TPM when stood in front of the Jedi Council, Anakin remarks, "Cold, sir." An implied critique of the Jedi, perhaps; or Corsucant itself; or the Republic infested by corruption and the Sith; or all of these things. On a more personal level, the remark is suggestive of Anakin feeling fear: fear of loss. If Anakin continues to feel cold even after being burned half-alive before being locked in the Vader suit, this would suggest Luke half-sensing the truth of Vader before he enters the cave. He just doesn't know what he's dealing with yet. - An inconclusive duel. In the duels at the end of AOTC and TESB, nothing much is really accomplished. None of the participants land a victory, consistent with the moral murk of the films and their attitude toward violence in general (and the series as a whole). In the latter, however, Luke does learn that Vader is his father, and Vader himself seems more reserved afterward, leading to the events of ROTJ. This "pointless nature" of duelling is taken to an extreme in "The Last Jedi" where no actual duel involving touching sabers occurs, and Kylo technically "kills" Luke only to discover he was being tricked so that the remaining members of the Resistance (including his mother) could escape. Their brief encounter also has some resonances with Vader fighting Obi-Wan in ANH and Obi-Wan confronting Anakin in ROTS. - "This deal is getting worse all the time." Lando half-says this to the audience, much as Obi-Wan mutters little asides at several points in AOTC. Nute Gunray and Rune Haako also fret about Sidious changing things around on them in TPM and despair amongst themselves, "We should not have made this bargain." This shades into Anakin submitting to Palpatine in ROTS. By the end of the film, he realises he shouldn't have the bargain, but now (after killing the Separatists and losing Padme) he sees no way out. Like Nute and Rune and the Jedi Order, he has been played as a fool and rendered into a pawn of evil. - Creepy holograms. In ANH, there was only the flickery, benign holographic recording of Leia that induced Obi-Wan to leave Tatooine, and which put Luke on the Hero's Journey (unless you count the colourful chess holograms). TESB introduced the foreboding image of the Emperor who speaks to Vader in real-time. The Emperor also appears as a hologram in TPM and ROTS, while Sio Bibble's communication to Amidala in TPM is laced with uncertainty. "It's a trick. Send no reply. Send no transmissions of any kind." Though the idea of deceptive holograms and recordings goes back to "THX-1138". - More formal and beautiful wipes. The scene wipes started to become a bit more advanced in TESB, with more of an emphasis on circle forms. TPM also has a strong circle motif in various design elements. The podrace itself is circuitous, and the plot of the film also goes in a circle, starting and ending on Naboo. Of course, this is also true of the Lucas Saga as a whole, which is essentially a cinematic ouroboros: a snake chasing its own tail. The saga can also be resolved into a set of concentric storytelling rings. - The beautiful score. John Williams' full embrace of leitmotif scoring in TESB effectively nailed the colours of Star Wars to its mast. While the groundwork was already laid in ANH, it was TESB that essentially canonised the idea that Star Wars works best with a lush, orchestral, theme-laden musical score. To this day, many fans consider TESB's score one of Williams' all-time greatest. It also introduced several musical themes that would be re-used in subtle ways in the PT. One piece, when Luke is battling Vader on Cloud City, actually runs through all three trilogies (in the PT, when Yoda is about to duel Sidious beneath the grand Senate chamber; in the ST, when Rey gets angry and begins to react to Kylo while training on Pasaana). - The idea that all is not what it seems and appearances can be deceptive. This is a foundational theme of the series. In TESB, it is perhaps best summed up with Yoda's pithy line, "Judge me by my size, do you?" Even after Yoda's earlier deception wherein he casually reveals his real identity to Luke and calmly fires off a few nuggets of wisdom as clues (e.g., "Wars not make one great"), Luke still hasn't gotten the message. It is, of course, a lesson that constantly has to be re-learned. In the PT, this obliquely takes the form of a repeating line, and finds its most potent expression, once again, with Yoda: "Much to learn, you still have." Yoda teaching the younglings also nicely ties into Yoda's more light-hearted teacher characteristics in TESB. The idea that Jedi begin as "Padawan learners" also extends, in part, from the tuition dynamics between Luke and Yoda in TESB. All Jedi are children next to Yoda, and Yoda himself is, in some sense, the ultimate (enlightened) child.
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Post by Cryogenic on Aug 10, 2020 20:15:56 GMT
Welcome to Part 2. Or Part 1 of 2. If you've made it through the overture (or just decided to skip over it), give yourself a medal either way. Here is where I delve into the main topic a little more deeply than in previous posts. I specifically wanted to look a little more into the story evolution of ROTJ itself and how it ties into the PT. A quick heads-up before proceeding. Many quotes are incoming, and I thought it would be useful to give a basic key: BLUE = quoted material from the book "The Secret History Of Star Wars" (including script excerpts) PURPLE = comments from other sources (actors, personnel, critics, fans, et al.) GREEN = comments from George Lucas (he is the Yoda of this franchise) I don't understand why it is criticized. "Return of the Jedi" is a bright, fantastic movie, with a great conclusion. Ewoks? A pathetic life-form, which is important.
The Emperor makes the same mistake two times: he doesn't count the pathetic lifeform and fails. This is one of the main difference between good and evil: for the good every lifeform is important, for the evil a lot of lifeforms deserves only disdain.
I think ROTJ is criticised because people are a little addicted to the notion that TESB is somehow a masterclass in filmmaking, while ROTJ is merely a competent trilogy-closer. There may even be some truth to that (subjectively speaking), but I like your description of it. And yes, the Emperor makes the same mistake two times, by underestimating the value of other lifeforms, especially those deemed to be "primitive". In TPM, this folly is even echoed by the Jedi, who vaguely look on creatures like Jar Jar as "pathetic lifeforms". It's a sentiment that's certainly been seized upon by many detractors of the PT (looking at you, RLM). But while the comments and atmosphere from that portion of the documentary seem to suggest grave apprehension and dread from the crew (not just Lucas), it all strikes me as basically innocuous and perhaps as a kind of necessary growing pain when you consider that at last year's Celebration, during a panel celebrating the 20th anniversary of TPM, a video of Lucas addressing everyone in the audience was played and included him saying, "[TPM's] one of my favorite movies." I love that video. I also stand corrected. I thought Lucas said recently that TPM was his favourite movie, but in that video, he declares it to be " one of his favourite movies" -- of course, that's still a strong statement, and he seems to be implying it deserves to be regarded as an equal. On the other hand, he outright declares Jar Jar to be his favourite character; though, in former years, that distinction was given to Artoo. So cool! I agree that ROTJ displays a pleasing third-act confidence that we also see (in my opinion) in the third acts of the other trilogy(ies). It's that old chestnut: "third time's the charm." People are, of course, free to disagree with this assessment. But here's Ingram saying much the same thing in the year of ROTJ's 30th anniversary: Yet that same apparent confidence is also, to some extent, an illusion. ROTJ was very draining on Lucas, like the former entries, even though he initially felt it might be easier: By the end of the film, Lucas' marriage to Marcia Lucas had collapsed, and they announced that they were getting divorced only a few weeks after the film went on release. The making of Star Wars had exacted quite a toll on Lucas, and he barely had a day off from thinking or worrying about the films, or his companies and his plans for Skywalker Ranch, for an entire decade. Somehow, he made it to the finish line, but lost his wife and a good chunk of his fortune in the process. Indeed, Lucas was effectively racing to that finish line in ROTJ, with numerous aspects of the earlier films and his ideas for Star Wars undergoing retconning or revision -- including the movie's own title, which was initially set at "Return Of The Jedi", then changed to "Revenge Of The Jedi" for a period, and then changed back, not long before release, to "Return Of The Jedi". It is really fascinating to chart the ontogenesis of the classic, George Lucas-authored Star Wars saga as it developed from a relatively simple coming-of-age story in the original film, to a somewhat more mature self-actualisation narrative in the the next two episodes, and finally, to a full-blown thesis on the development of the individual, and also an exhibition piece on the interplay between the personal and the political in the Prequel Trilogy. I will also touch on the Disney Sequel Trilogy in this response, but my prime focus will be on the so-called "George Lucas Era". As Alexrd said in another thread on "The Clone Wars": What one day I would like to do is to watch the series in production order, just to appreciate the technical improvements and evolution. There is certainly something to admiring the all-round growth and evolution of Star Wars and its various sub-facets as it blossoms and unfurls through time. This may be why I have a particular interest in "Return Of The Jedi" -- it being both an ending and a beginning (End/Or), functioning as both a conclusion and coda to the Original Trilogy, as well as providing the story foundations and serving as a frontispiece or "teaser" for the forthcoming Prequel Trilogy. Calling it "the first prequel" is, of course, a touch hyperbolic; but its proto-prequel makeup makes it something of a transitional piece between the OT and PT regimes, and a worthy item of study. It all starts with a cryptic comment Lucas made in 1980: As the attribution shows, I've lifted that from a highly useful book that was put out in 2007, the year of the original film's 30th anniversary, called "The Secret History Of Star Wars" by Michael Kaminski. I have a digital copy of this book that I return to (no pun intended) from time-to-time. While Kaminski has something of an agenda against Lucas and the prequels, I find his book to be a decent corpus of quotes and observations overall. Kaminski comments on this quote: Indeed, Lucas would end up giving Episode I the working title of "The Beginning", which later became the title of its central fly-on-the-wall DVD documentary. Sitting down with Leonard Maltin for a taped interview in 1995, originally released in three parts and appended to a home video release of the Original Trilogy that year, Lucas explained that he was now feverishly working on the backstory to the Original Trilogy -- the "real story" of his saga: This is a fantastically exciting tease and also quite the revelation. It is hard to look back and unpack the devastation inherent to the notion that "the real story hasn't even been told yet". But it really hadn't. In ROTJ, Lucas was just beginning to marshal the fragments of plot revelations that would birth the prequels and make their existence not only possible, but in a sense, necessary -- necessary to understanding Anakin and his tragic life as Darth Vader, and necessary to explaining the basic plot situation and the themes inherent to the Original Trilogy in a much deeper way. Let me begin with a pickle of a dilemma that ended up exploding-out the Prequel Trilogy and defining a good deal of its composition. As "The Secret History Of Star Wars" author Michael Kaminski observes in his chapter on ROTJ titled "Demons and Angels" (a highly useful chapter in the course of this response that I will be returning to repeatedly from this point on): One may dispute some of the author's contentions, including the idea that the story of Star Wars "was becoming a patchy mess". But the author's basic point remains: Lucas was rearranging a lot of his earlier ideas once he got to ROTJ, once the time had come to give them form and make them more concrete (at least, in a skeletal sense, until they would be clothed with flesh in the PT). Much as would occur in the PT and also the ST, the assembly of the next film in the line forced the maker to confront issues they were putting off in the preceding films. In short, every Star Wars film is essentially a set of solutions to a bunch of problems. It was ROTJ that really compelled Lucas to be more explicit about certain connections and ideas, as if the PT were already quietly asking in the background, beneath all the cosmic noise, "What about me?" Lucas' wider saga (not unlike the symbolic overtones of his avatar, Luke Skywalker, constructing his own lightsaber and revealing it for the first time in ROTJ) was essentially nucleated when he sat down to tackle the third and final installment of his Original Trilogy. The compelling, epic backstory that already buzzed faintly in the background in the original film, was now, as its second sequel got underway, gaining shape and texture. The nebulous backstory of the first two films was contextualised and given form in the third. The hazy, indistinct burbling of backstory in ANH and TESB was now a set of sad happenings and tragic sunderings. ROTJ provided the saga with a powerful set of emotional and thematic hooks that would justify and deepen the backstory's construction. They would also be a strong commercial allure for people keen to learn who Darth Vader really was and how he came to be. In a compelling demonstration of how Star Wars half-wrote itself (albeit with detours), Kaminski goes on to say: Lucas fixed this dilemma in ROTJ by having Luke sent to Tatooine under the watchful eye of Obi-Wan, and Leia sent to live on Alderaan under the care of Bail Organa and his wife. The saga was beginning to acquire a more tragic and historical-mythological inflection. Bad things had clearly happened in the past, and flawed choices made in that historical past were continuing to influence the present. Star Wars was becoming more of a world -- a place dominated by choices and consequences. Though Lucas needed to tackle something else before arriving at this pragmatic, story-expanding fix. In both a neat parallel of Luke's parental revelation in TESB and a serious lane-switch for the upcoming Prequel Trilogy (especially the ethereal Sequel Trilogy), Lucas decided to bring together several unresolved elements into one synthesised plot revelation in ROTJ: Leia would be revealed as Luke's twin sister and (implicitly) the elusive "Other" mentioned by Yoda (when Luke departs Dagobah) in TESB. No longer would Leia merely be an ally of Luke Skywalker -- she would be a Skywalker herself, and hence, be part of a tragic family caste with wonderfully hidden powers of her own. Kaminski explains: Elegantly dispatching a whole platoon of Battle Droids at once (to reach for a prequel metaphor) -- pretty much Lucas' metier when it comes to the storytelling concision of Star Wars. There doesn't seem to be any storytelling obstacle that Lucas wasn't able to solve once he jumped down, Obi-Wan-style, and greeted the problem head-on ("Hello there"). Yet this change also brought with it other ramifications that would ripple through the waters of Lucas' saga -- as we shall see. Kaminski goes on to note: In a saga where the main character might be expected to "get the girl" (as Han ultimately wins the affections of Leia), latter-day speculation would arise that Luke is gay or possibly asexual. Hamill himself weighed in a few times on the topic, first stating in 2016: According to the same source, he also reinforced these words, tweeting back to one fan: A year later, with "The Last Jedi" about to go on worldwide release, Hamill instead echoed more closely the view of George Lucas in a Google-based autocomplete question-and-answer session for Wired: This is something of a flippant answer, and he is quickly cut off by an obvious edit in the video. While Luke was allowed to get married in the old Expanded Universe, it seems that the more serious depiction of him in the films was destined to show him partner-less. For all the current fan controversy surrounding "The Last Jedi", it is perhaps worth noting that the serious, dour Luke of Episode VIII was partially set up with this story decision of Lucas' years in advance (and, of course, the Rian Johnson film pilfers from ROTJ in other ways, notably in the duplication of a protracted throne room sequence). Of course, there's nothing to say that Luke could not have had a romantic relationship in the vast interim between the events of the Original Trilogy and his seclusion as shown in the Sequel Trilogy, but one can also read a complex sexuality into Luke's bizarre, character-redefining retreat to a remote island. In short, Luke is something of a mystery to himself. His aromantic aspects stand out starkly against the sensual frieze of the prequels and his father's entry into a "forbidden" romance, as well as his best friend Han Solo becoming entangled with Leia in the Original Trilogy. In deleted material from the original film, Luke seemed to be wanting to gain the affections of female friends on Tatooine, as well as remarking on Leia's beauty (and all he had to go on was a hologram!) and half coming to blows with Han over Leia after they escape the Death Star (a very suggestive gamete-like object in space which Luke later inseminates with proton torpedoes). Once again, it is ROTJ that essentially gifts this view of Luke to saga; since no hint of sexual bantering remains in ROTJ after some early shenanigans between Han, Luke, and Leia on Hoth in the previous film. Luke's path suddenly became much more serious and devout in the third OT film. There was no longer any space for an all-in-black Luke to express amorous inclinations, and Hamill seemed to agree with Lucas that his character was suddenly on a more priestly path, and was now answering to a higher call. Therefore: No sex please, we're Jedi! This sudden change in Luke's demeanour, already perhaps with some dropping-off in TESB, seems to have generated a range of mosaic-like answers or variations on a theme in the other trilogies (one trilogy by Lucas, one by post-Lucas interpreters). Luke's suppressed sexuality, if one is game to read his character that way, makes for some great thematic sauce in the storytelling and overall thematic orientation of both flanking trilogies, in different ways. Indeed, combined with the Emperor's notably lascivious overtones toward Luke in his throne room, involving the phallic object of Luke's newly-constructed lightsaber (a new sexuality?), and the outrageous priapic hijinks in Jabba's Palace, ROTJ rounds the Lucas Saga out on something of a decidedly concupiscent note -- despite the generally chaste surface features of the Star Wars universe. After all, all those babies in Star Wars have to come from somewhere. They can't all be clones -- or can they? Such is some of the disdainful terror generated by ROTJ, in fact, that the new copyright holders thought they should comment on it and pass judgement on at least one aspect a few years ago: Maybe that chain being around Leia's neck was for more reasons than Kennedy supposes. Incidentally, Lucas is defiant about his choices in that same interview: Returning to the topic of Leia becoming Luke's sister, Kaminski goes on to note more issues that are solved by giving Luke and Leia this particular relationship to one another: Pausing here for a second, we must keep the biases and limitations of the author I'm quoting in mind. The art of being a Jedi is the art of knowing how to control (or at least influence) the thoughts and feelings of others. A false dichotomy of sorts is sneaking up on the reader here. If Leia was said to know "the art of mind control" by the third draft, that's a pretty good indication that Lucas was already leaning (perhaps subconsciously) in that very direction with Leia. Yet it's fair to note she never does anything as blatant as levitating a lightsaber to herself or flinging herself out of a freezing pit. But then again, she wasn't trained to do such things. Force-potentiality and being trained to develop that potential are being clumsily conflated here. What potential did Luke show (by the author's metric) before Obi-Wan taught him a few things? We know Luke already has some skill with vehicles and piloting, but this isn't so far apart from Leia's own set of skills in her own field of activity. Moving on... Note that this is also being asserted on thin grounds. Leia is particularly resilient. The films show this in a fairly unembroidered fashion. Han has truly met his match in Leia, and that's a big part of why their romance works. Her strong distrust of Lando could also count as her having a kind of Jedi-like sixth sense that something was wrong on Cloud City (although, maybe being in the world of politics so long, she knows a rat when she smells one). And on Cloud City, she later detects Luke moving through the corridors of the city, and also hears the telepathic calls of Luke when he's hanging onto the weather vane underneath the city. Indeed, her worry over Luke seems to be enlarging her own abilities; which finds resonance in AOTC with Anakin worrying about his mother and seeming to be growing more sensitive to her plight as her situation worsens. Continuing... I agree that this reading makes a lot of sense. Whether Lucas was consciously aware of it in the beginning, this connection was lurking in the text all along. Only in a movie where all the gremlins and goblins of Jabba's Palace, a jaunty underworld setting, come out to play does some of this underlying subtext finally burst forth, erupting like a series of Sarlacc tentacles around the text, announcing its hungry presence at long last. What is our world -- indeed, the universe -- if not a messy (yet rhythmic) dance of desire, consumption, and consummation? While it's debatable whether there wasn't actually a familial/genetic element to Luke becoming a Jedi all along (even Kaminski admits that Luke was inspired to become a Jedi because his father had been one), it is ROTJ that makes that idea much more explicit, for both Luke and Leia. With the two fundamentally tied to the same parentage, the mold was truly set for future entries in the saga to respect that lineage and flesh it out. In ROTJ, Star Wars became -- or was certainly clarified as being -- a family drama: a mythic opus set in space permeated by Freudian overtones and riven by Oedipal conflicts. What was loosely Freudian when Vader removed Luke's hand in TESB was now explicitly so. Now rhymes and echoes would appear very deliberate, freighted with all sorts of meanings and implications. But wait! There's more. A relatively mundane but significant outcome of all this backstory tinkering was that, as touched on earlier, the twins would have to be hidden from Vader and the Empire. Again, this would have implications for the plotline of the PT. As Kaminski explains: Although, as some prequel watchers have inferred, sometimes the best place to hide something is in plain sight. You could argue the Jedi end up taking a leaf from Palpatine's book. Just as he existed for decades under their noses in the Senate, so they would adapt his strategy in hiding the twins -- one would become a senator from a similar planet to Naboo (just as Palpatine was originally the Senator of Naboo in Episode I), while the other would be hidden on the home planet of the Chosen One who tasted and eventually fell to the Dark Side after experiencing considerable anguish there (when rescuing his mother in Episode II). Kaminski continues: Of course, finding out one's real heritage is a major trope in mythological storytelling. Kaminski sees serious upset where (at least in this case) there is only some mild jumbling around of story elements. Furthermore, in some cultures, the appellations "aunt" and "uncle" are used to refer to elders and guardians, whether they have a direct genetic link to those using those terms or not. Still, compared to its forebears, ROTJ performed quite a shaking-up of the Star Wars furniture, such as it was back then. Kaminski describes Lucas' solution: Just as Luke was sent into hiding, so was Leia -- making for a particularly sublime end to the Prequel Trilogy in Episode III. Kaminski writes of Lucas choosing a different destination for Leia: And it made for another good solution. Kaminski also notes an intriguing resonance the other side of the screen: Yet this plot development was arguably a stretch, and would cause consternation in the fanbase for years, as Kaminski himself touches upon: Kaminski also turns his sights on a major change in Obi-Wan's character in ROTJ -- another alteration that would give the saga (via the PT) more maturity and depth: While this change in Obi-Wan really began in the third act of TESB, it is ROTJ that really makes it official, establishing more critical story parameters that would go on to define the storyline of the PT. As Kaminski observes: (One imagines Rian Johnson taking a few notes at this point in the book). Returning to Leia being hidden on Alderaan, it's also illuminating to notice that, in dialogue later deleted between Obi-Wan and Luke, Obi-Wan explains how Alderaan is a democracy, with a facade of monarchy, much like Naboo: This description very clearly anticipates Padme in the PT. Lucas evidently wanted to echo Leia quite strongly with her mother, and more than that, make Obi-Wan's excised explanation a clearer and more explicit part of the narrative, second time around. Once again, we find many important prequel seeds hiding within the flowerbed of ROTJ. In fact, Lucas himself explicitly wanted one of the Skywalker twins to mention the mother, with a deliberate view to linking ROTJ with the PT, even if the details were left to the PT to resolve: This debate that Lucas had presumably took place because he didn't want to write himself into a corner with the prequels -- for instance, all mention of the Clone Wars by other writers was forbidden. It may also have occurred because Lucas considered Leia remembering Padme to be a stretch. The final dialogue in the film (much to the chagrin of the fanbase) suggests that Leia is tapping into the Force to remember Padme -- an elegant way to circumvent the problem. Even that very conceit, or the dialogue being written in such a way to imply the conceit, ended up giving Padme an ephemeral, mysterious quality, which also seems to have influenced her portrayal in the PT.
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Post by Cryogenic on Aug 10, 2020 20:19:07 GMT
Welcome to Part 2 of 2 (or 3 of 3). If you've been enjoying the discussion of ROTJ so far from a "prequel" (or saga) point-of-view, you'll hopefully like this last part, which now moves on to looking at the evolution of Vader/Anakin, and the expansion of Luke's role in ROTJ. No discussion of the connection between ROTJ and the PT would be complete without touching on the evolution of Vader/Anakin himself. While TESB may have taken the first steps toward humanising him (even ANH has a few of these moments), these steps aren't all that significant until the final act on Cloud City. ROTJ is tasked with making sense of Vader's revelation to Luke, and is also obligated in ensuring the bond between Luke and Vader is believable and conveys sufficient emotional depth. The choices made would again inflect the narrative of the PT. In the rough draft of ROTJ (then called "Revenge Of The Jedi") from February 1981, Vader would undergo a transformation into a more human and vulnerable character compared to his portrayal in the previous films, competing with the Emperor for the prize of Luke -- though, in the rough draft, his interest seems more samurai-esque and power-driven, without some of the indecision and protectionism we see in the finished film. Kaminski states: Kaminski illustrates with an example from the script. A scene between Vader and the Emperor in the revised rough draft actually has Vader attempting to stand up to the Emperor in his throne room, and getting choked by the Emperor through the Force in response -- an echo of this would appear in "The Last Jedi", when Kylo, Vader's grandson, literally attempts to stand up to his decrepit master Snoke in his throne room, provoked by the idea of him being an inferior version of Vader, and is flung back with lightning. The scene from the revised rough draft of ROTJ: Some lines in this scene would later show up elsewhere: Snoke looks forward to being able to crush the Resistance "once and for all" in "The Force Awakens", while Anakin half-heartedly apologises to Obi-Wan, "Forgive me, master", outside the nightclub in AOTC. The Emperor's double meaning in promising to "take good care" of Luke is also duplicated in his comical reassurance to Nute Gunray in ROTS regarding the arrival of his new apprentice (Anakin): "He will... take care of you." Kaminski himself says about the scene: Indeed, in the finished film, Vader's subservience would be crystallised by a poignant line to Luke, before Luke is brought to the Emperor and can see the power relationship for himself: "You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I must obey my master." Of course, it is arguable that Luke never really glimpses the full extent of this power relationship. The Disney Sequel Trilogy, controversial as it stands, builds on the implicit idea that Dark Side apprentices (or at least those with tremendous power like the Skywalker apprentices) are essentially tethered to their dark masters, and freeing themselves of this influence is no easy thing -- they literally require an abundance of faith, hope, and compassion in order to abandon their Dark Side prison. Overcoming the Dark Side is a Herculean challenge, and it is essentially the eucatastrophe of the Star Wars saga. Lucas seemed to emphasise this reality in Episode III when Anakin pledges himself to the Emperor, describing his submission as a "Faustian pact" on the DVD commentary and creating a weird ambience in that scene in general. By the time Anakin is placed into the Vader suit at the end of the film, horribly burned and mutilated, his friends a distant memory, his wife dead, and his children scattered, a viewer is left with the impression that he is trapped -- his personal circumstance has caught up with the underlying metaphysical reality (of his choices and deeds) as he is shut inside a machine coffin, seemingly "consumed by Darth Vader" (in the earlier words of Yoda to Obi-Wan). Some Lucas comments from the "Chosen One" featurette originally included on the DVD for ROTS help explain his basic purpose with the PT: Similarly, in "The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith" by J.W. Rinzler, Lucas discusses his saga on the eighth day of principal photography in July 2003, during a lengthy break in filming in the video village: It is interesting that Anakin's first owner, the pot-bellied Watto, complains to Qui-Gon after Anakin unexpectedly wins the podrace in Episode I: "I lost everything." Indeed, there is a pronounced slavery motif at work in these films, and Anakin (in many respects, the saga's central character) seems to escape one type of enslavement only to fall straight into another. As Rinzler puts it at the end of "The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith": As Lucas also says at the end of the book: Consistent with this in-built process of upending perspectives and eliciting sympathy for Vader from a different angle (yet without Vader being a centrepiece of the entire saga at this point), a major change would enter the picture for the second draft of ROTJ, which was completed in September 1981. Now we would get more of Vader's transformation and ultimate redemption from Luke's perspective. Lucas' lofty prequel vision was swinging into view as the storyline of ROTJ became a moral fable about reconciliation and redemption. Kaminski explains: In the earlier drafts, Vader simply charges at the Emperor at the end to stop him attacking Luke, killing the Emperor and himself in the process. His sacrifice in these earlier two drafts (the rough draft and the revised rough draft) is more abrupt, and more reminiscent (in a way) of Gollum immolating himself in "The Lord Of The Rings" when he swipes the Ring from Frodo and plunges into the fiery lava of Mount Doom below. In these earlier drafts, strengthening the resonance, the confrontation between Vader, Luke, and the Emperor takes place beneath the capital planet, Had Abbadon, deep inside the Emperor's lair, which is sat atop a river of lava, ultimately serving as their doom. Interestingly, the abruptness of Vader's death in these earlier drafts is also similar to Ben Solo's abrupt embracing of the light at the end of Colin Trevorrow's and Derek Connolly's script "Duel Of The Fates", dating to December 2016 and leaked online in January this year (the earliest script we have available for Episode IX). Rey and Ben duel in the Force-soaked world of Mortis, and at the last moment, Ben returns the life force he has drained back into Rey (note the similarity of this moment with Ben's final moments with Rey in "The Rise Of Skywalker"). He then utters Rey's full name in apology, and a moment later dies "with a look that could be perceived as love". While Ben's death is still abrupt in TROS, his turn (occurring on the ruins of the Second Death Star) is given much more weight and emphasis in the J.J. Abrams and Chris Terrio-penned film. History repeats. Star Wars films with redemptive plot arcs evidently require their fair share of sweetening. This is how the script fragment describes Vader's last moments in the revised rough draft for ROTJ: The Emperor actually verbalises his imminent defeat at the hands of Vader here -- perhaps a touch clunky. Interestingly, the term "netherworld" is also used by the Emperor in his last moments. This term would not be used in a finished Star Wars film until one of the last scenes in Episode III, when Yoda tells Obi-Wan that his Old Master "has returned from the netherworld of the Force" -- marking a profound "return" of a Jedi! Qui-Gon's return at the end of the PT is the gift of communion in a trilogy dominated by "communications disruptions", and a way for the Jedi to eventually gain the upperhand on the Sith after death, by retaining some influence via the Living Force (first mentioned by Qui-Gon in Episode I). In this draft of ROTJ, we therefore have a significant story detail that would not get any proper acknowledgement for many years. Indeed, the idea that the spirits of vanished Jedi are negatively influencing Palpatine, or powering the hero to victory against him, will only find real story expression at the end of Episode IX, when Rey defeats Palpatine by calling on the legacy of "a thousand generations" of Jedi that have passed before her. It is also notable that Anakin's fate is placed "in Yoda's hands" in this earlier draft -- Yoda, the mystery character who watches over the Skywalkers very closely, in all three trilogies. But returning to ROTJ here: The whole Luke-Vader dynamic would be much improved in the second draft. Due to rewriting that had occurred elsewhere, a certain shockwave rippled through the new draft, resulting in a tightened emphasis on Luke having a "mission", of sorts, to save Anakin from himself and bring him back to the light. Lucas' story conferences with director Richard Marquand and co-writer Lawrence Kasdan proved fruitful on this front. These conferences occurred following the writing of the revised rough draft and took place July 13th to July 17th 1981. Lucas had a film to make, and he had to make it fast. What did his new director and returning co-writer feel should happen? Lucas would shoot down many suggestions, but was receptive to many ideas that were brought up. It was in these conferences, for example, that Marquand raised the idea of Luke honouring his promise in TESB and returning to Dagobah and consulting with Yoda and Obi-Wan there, instead of Yoda's death happening off-screen and Luke speaking to them in visions as he does in the earlier rough drafts. With Lucas agreeing, Kasdan was able to write a scene between Luke and Obi-Wan full of exposition and revelation, and it was this scene, so charged with information, that gave birth to the dramatic shift between Luke and Vader in focus in the second draft. In effect, befitting the eventual title of the movie, Luke returns to Dagobah, in order to return to Vader -- becoming more determined and able to confront Vader as more of an equal. As Kaminski explains: I pause to note a resonance here with Palpatine using intimate information to manipulate and turn Anakin in ROTS. In the last prequel, it is established early on that Palpatine knows about Anakin's slaughter of the Tuskens in AOTC, as well as his troubles with the Jedi Council, and even the fact that he is married. It is also heavily implied that Palpatine knows that Anakin has been struggling with visions of Padme dying in childbirth. It is sometimes argued that Palpatine implanted these visions himself. At the least, he seems to be able to read parts of Anakin's mind with the Force, having an awesome degree of hidden ability, enabling him to be sensitive (if incredibly devious) toward the fears and frustrations of others. So ROTJ can actually be read as a tussle between Luke and Palpatine, where Luke, representing the light, has grown quietly ascendent over the dark. Luke is now the one in possession of freakish intuition, and Luke is now the one pressing on and exerting a strong influence on Palpatine's apprentice. The "first" and last prequels share an intimate relationship of their own -- echoing the connection between Anakin and Luke. Kaminski continues: It is in the second draft of ROTJ that Luke emerges as the self-actualising reformer that has made Luke such an enduring paragon of heroism for so many. In this draft, Luke is finally more of his own person, and he faces down Vader accordingly -- with authority and conviction. He believes his father can be redeemed and set right, while everyone else in the film who comments on the matter to Luke (Yoda, Obi-Wan, Leia, Vader, the Emperor) seems to hold a more fatalistic or pessimistic view. This depiction of Luke evidently agreed with Lucas quite strongly, as years later he would finally crown his completed saga with a powerful homily -- this is a story of compassion and of one generation cleaning up the mess of the former. In an interview with Gavin Edwards (not to be confused with Gareth Edwards, director of "Rogue One") for Rolling Stone in 2005, Lucas explained his saga, effectively offering the "master equation": It had taken him three decades, but Lucas could finally take pride in his epic accomplishment. The Star Wars saga, his paean to the world, was complete, and it had a remarkably lucid core: this was all about going astray and being inspired by the next generation to find the right path. Yet nothing comes without some degree of compromise and sacrifice. While the Star Wars saga is brought to a satisfying close in ROTJ, Luke's faith in his father seems to come somewhat from left-field. Kaminski himself highlights this questionable "fudge": Of course, it's no saga-spoiler. The films are in any case elliptical, with time jumps and adventures and revelations and character growth happening off-screen. And if this sudden change in character feels a little abrupt in the Original Trilogy, the prequels help by suggesting that Luke's insight was pressed into his consciousness from birth -- by a forlorn (and seemingly Force-sensitive) Padme, who manages to glimpse and report on Anakin's inherent retained goodness in her last moments. This revelation of Padme's sows the seeds of Anakin's redemption, not unlike the way ROTJ sowed the seeds of the PT itself. In the Original Trilogy, Luke just needed to remember Padme's insight, much as Luke chastises Vader about the rejection of his real name: "It is the name of your true self. You have only forgotten." In TPM, Jar Jar also admits that he has "forgotten" about being banished from the Gungan city. In AOTC, Anakin himself worries that Padme has "forgotten" him "completely". Here again, ROTJ infused the saga with deeper meaning -- a meaning that may have come about, in large part, because of the aesthetic and ontological leanings of the people that helped Lucas forge the original films. It is interesting to note that the producer of the first two Star Wars films, Gary Kurtz, was Buddhist, along with TESB director Irvin Kershner, and Lucas' co-writer Lawrence Kasdan. Perhaps owing to their influence, Lucas would look more into Buddhism and later call himself a "Buddhist Methodist", after his daughter starting using the term at school. There is even a tinge of Buddhism in the original film, with the Jedi loosely based on Shaolin monks and the legendary samurai of China and Japan, and at two key points in the film, Obi-Wan counsels Luke to "let go" (a Buddhist precept) and to "act on instinct" (precedents for this in other Indian-Asian belief systems). A more esoteric reading can even make the Death Star into a mandala (which Luke blows up after practicing earlier in the film with a training remote). Indeed, much of Star Wars is built on the back of the so-called hippie or counterculture and a surge in New Age thinking in the 1960s and 1970s in the Western world, the focal point of which (in the United States) was California, Lucas' home state (and the home of Lucas' film companies) -- one of the most politically liberal states in the Union. A controversial book also came out in 1975, right in the middle of when Lucas was drafting the original film: Fritjof Capra's "The Tao Of Physics". Eastern culture (or the West's interpretation of it) had become a big deal, and the book is perhaps echoed in Star Wars with Lucas fusing scientific and mystical nomenclature into one all-encompassing "Force". Yet Lucas was rather vague about the mechanics of his world in the original film. It is only in the sequels that the gravity of Lucas' cosmology intensifies. In TESB, Yoda (whose name invokes several Indian-Asian words of interest) tells Luke he needs to "clear [his] mind" of questions, and generally instructs him in a broadly Buddhist way. There are grave undertones to Yoda's tutelage of Luke on Dagobah, centred around the premise that Luke himself is far more vulnerable to the Dark Side than he realises -- that Vader's fate could be his own. When Luke enters the cave on Dagobah, he discovers an image of himself in Vader's mask, after lashing out with negative emotions. This is the film's moment of apotheosis: an abstract "movie within a movie", and a potent portrayal of good and evil more consistent with major Oriental belief systems than Western ones. Luke telling Vader that Anakin Skywalker is his "true self" is thus a variant on the cave scene, again owing something of a debt to Oriental philosophy. In Buddhism, for example, there is the concept of atman (self), though followers are normally encouraged to aspire to anatta (non-self) as the higher ideal. Indeed, it seems that Luke doesn't realise until the climax of his confrontation with Vader that Anakin Skywalker is also his true self -- that there is a piece of the other in the both of them. The father is the son, and the son is the father. When Luke glances at Vader's sliced-off hand and then his own mechanical hand (hidden away inside a dark glove) that Vader removed in their previous encounter, it is like long-forgotten knowledge coming back to the surface in a blinding realisation -- exemplifying ROTJ as the spiritual high-point of the series. Furthermore, the basic idea that Vader has "forgotten" who he really is is provocative, and quite obviously lights the fuse that leads to his redemption (see how affected Vader is after this conversation with Luke when left alone with his thoughts). Finally, Star Wars had discovered, to paraphrase Obi-Wan, a "point of view" on its real subject matter: the often doleful and contradictory nature of human beings. The series now had an orientation, a perspective, a slant: a sort of beautiful mountain-peak view. The act of forgetting is no meager thing and is actually central to human affairs. In a lucid article on Jorges Luis Borges' famous short story "Funes The Memorious", appearing in a collection of short stories called "Object Lessons: The Paris Review Presents the Art of the Short Story", Aleksander Hemon writes: Additionally, in a poignant illustration of how young minds are more receptive to radical ideas than older ones, and how two people can be in a room can come away with entirely different impressions, Padme's final words are mouthed to Obi-Wan, but it is Luke who takes up the cause, decades later ("There's good in him, I know there's still..."). It exemplifies Obi-Wan saying to Luke: "You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." Indeed, Obi-Wan clinging to the idea that Anakin is probably beyond saving ("He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil") could be read as a narcissistic attachment to the old ways, while Luke is free of such blinkeredness, having only walked the Jedi path years after the dissolution of the old Jedi Order and the loosening of those old ways. It is the forgetting of these old ways, and their imperfect remembrance, that is key to the revitalisation of all that has gone astray in the perfection of all that is -- or could be. Now a few final pieces: One thing I left off when describing the evolution of Vader in the different drafts of ROTJ, which Kaminski also explains in his chapter on the development of the film, is Vader's relationship with a snide, overbearing bureaucrat called Jerjerrod. In a very basic sense, this Jerjerrod (with the rank of Moff) is like the Jerjerrod of the movie, in that he is intended as a foil for Vader's ambitions: a middle-man, of sorts, between Vader and the Emperor. However, temperamentally, and in his power relationship over Vader, he is very unlike the Jerjerrod of the film, who is a markedly weaker figure of authority, essentially in over his head (a deleted scene in which he is ordered to turn the Death Star to fire on Endor itself makes this clearer and far more poignant -- a neat little cut of the film on YouTube, titled Jerjerrod's Conflict, is worth watching). The Jerjerrod of the earlier drafts is a man with a great deal of power who makes things difficult for Vader and bosses him around. At one point, Vader remarks, "The disgusting little bureaucrat is attempting to lay a trap for me." Vader also considers him, as the Emperor's counsel, to be "very clever and quite dangerous". However, this doesn't stop him later snapping the neck of Jerjerrod, quipping that "your importance has been greatly exaggerated". Arguably, ROTJ is a little impoverished with the diminution of Jerjerrod. While minimising Jerjerrod's presence in the film served to give more of the floor to Vader and Luke and the Emperor, a relatively undiluted power triangle, it resulted in the loss of an antagonism between high-ranking Imperials that it might have been interesting to see -- making ROTJ a less-than-ideal continuation of prior scenes in ANH and TESB (it is something of the odd one out). The only scene between Vader and Jerjerrod (where they speak to one another) in the finished film is the opening scene. This seems a little unsatisfying when you know that more was originally intended between the two men. Indeed, Jerjerrod is scarcely in the film beyond that opening scene, only showing up in one or two others between Vader and the Emperor as window dressing. Yet the Sequel Trilogy would end up picking up the slack here. The relationship between Kylo Ren and General Hux echoes what was intended between Vader and Jerjerrod. Kylo obviously considers Hux to be an annoyance, while Hux seems to view Kylo as a loose cannon. Of a similar age and played off against each other by Snoke, they have a strange brotherly rivalry. Eventually, Hux traitors Kylo and meets a sudden, unceremonious end, much like Jerjerrod in the earlier drafts. Another matter I'd like to briefly address: In the course of writing this response, it occurred to me how much more family-oriented (in perhaps both an internal and external sense) the saga became in ROTJ. While combing the chapter in "The Secret History Of Star Wars" for quotes, attempting to pin down certain quotes with certain words, I noticed I had consecutively inputted the terms "sister", "brother", and "mother" respectively. Add the terms "father", "son", and "daughter" to the mixture, and it's clear that one is describing the basic building blocks of a family drama; or in Lucas' words to Charlie Rose in 2015, a soap opera: Speaking about the original film, hinting at how the movies would gradually unfold: Speaking about the saga as a wider whole, with all the themes and character relationships in the first two trilogies nailed into place: Revisiting Lucas' reframing concept from earlier, his interview by Gavin Edwards for Rolling Stone in 2005, ten years before the Charlie Rose interview, found him emphasising much the same thing: Indeed, all these characters are embedded in a construct repeatedly termed a "saga" -- a word that points in the direction of a story intimately concerned with the exploits of families, lineage, and myths and legends: It is interesting to note that the weight of Star Wars being a "soap opera" first starts to become apparent in TESB, which opens on Hoth, which was filmed in Norway. When ice and snow are introduced into your story, against hot desert sand and impersonal Death Star constructs, then I guess you begin to have yourself a real saga -- something rough, something fierce, something incurably beautiful and pristine. No wonder some people think TESB is pure as the driven snow. Star Wars has suggestive effects. It is the ultimate Jedi Master performing the ultimate Mind Trick. But where does ROTJ sit in the Star Wars pantheon? I think it is worth noting the sort of Star Wars movie that Richard Marquand, the film's director, felt he was making in "Return Of The Jedi", and giving him the chance to speak. In a rare, previously-unpublished interview conducted in 1984 and only unearthed in 2013, which coincided with the release of J.W. Rinzler's epic "Making Of" book on the film, Jules-Pierre Malarte sat with Marquand and captured his unique perspective: A user comment that used to exist on the same page also captured the intense gravity and focus of the film -- I saved it because I was immediately struck by it when I first read the page, so here it is: It is interesting to ponder what people would have made of the film, and what would have become of the Star Wars franchise, if one of those earlier drafts had been used, before the story conference with Richard Marquand and Lawrence Kasdan took place in July 1981. Lucas clearly saw that his ideas were in need of refining, and it was only in the second draft, written after this conference took place, that the focus shifted to Luke and his personal goal of turning Vader back to the good side. In effect, the last Star Wars film of the Original Trilogy, and Lucas' Star Wars saga entire, had finally found their raison dêtre. Lastly: In any case, my ears always perk up whenever certain filmmakers talk about select entries in their oeuvre in (modestly) reverent terms. I appreciate knowing what's the best they have to offer, especially when it comes straight from the horse's mouth. "This is a shortcut... I think." I appreciate it, too. All of Star Wars is ridiculous and all of it matters.
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Post by Somny on Aug 10, 2020 21:48:42 GMT
Gift of gifts.
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Post by ArchdukeOfNaboo on Aug 10, 2020 22:47:48 GMT
Housekeeping
Going to have to be a spoilsport here:
et all
This is the Lucas Saga board. The Sequel Trilogy is alternative history and not relevant in any story discussions here. You can discuss ROTJ in the context of the Abrams and Johnsons movies to your heart's content over on the Disney saga board.
There is plenty of threads already discussing Lucas bad treatment by Disney, his feelings on it, and Disney's relationship/controversies with fans today. We don't need any invasive species over here.
It's not old on this Lucas Saga board. It's perfectly legitimate.
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Post by Cryogenic on Aug 10, 2020 23:58:45 GMT
ArchdukeOfNaboo Just as you're apparently not interested in seeing any Disney discussion here (which is the posture of a rabid puritan), I'm not interested in listening to your petty "housekeeping" demands in a thread that I've created. If these small digressions and acknowledgements aren't to your liking, why not overlook them instead of behaving like a belligerent cop and a dyed-in-the-wool fundamentalist? You're not helping your own cause here. Being this inflexible is goddamn ridiculous. Hard to believe this was also you a few months ago: But that's a topic that I would only want Lucas to touch on, and since he's not involved anymore, I'd would prefer if Disney stood as far away from it as possible. We get it: anything Star Wars that isn't made by Lucas is blasphemous. But the premise of this thread is that a spin-off series is being developed by Disney, and that we are interested in what it may be about. That implies giving this project the spirit of goodwill. The reality is that nothing this show could ever do would possibly please you. It may be a very deep introspective take on an Obi-Wan suffering from PTSD, with him questioning himself and on what he's become, and you'd still be up in arms, just like the social media mob you so deplore - how fabulously ironic.
I've been a vocal critic of Disney Lucasfilm, and I do not need to be reminded of their past failings, but I don't think for a minute think I have any right to condemn new projects like this to oblivion. There are a lot of good folks still in the company, like Dave Filoni, John Knoll and Doug Chiang and I think they are perfectly capable of producing a good drama when given sufficient time and creative control.
If it's your philosophy that new projects like this need to be shot down immediately, then you're wasting your time commenting here. That kind of attitude, which also includes ridiculing a film you haven't even bothered to see (ie the TROS thread) is simply ridiculous. Debating with you on whether or not Obi-Wan should meet Bail, or indeed any merits of this planned series, is pointless. I will be moving on.
Yes, that's right -- a staunch anti-Disney member poo-poo-ing a positive thread that you created, and then you getting all mad and condescending about it, on the basis that "new projects" shouldn't be condemned "to oblivion". In other words, when it's something Disney-created that you're interested in, you tell the other person to buzz the hell off, even when they were just giving their basic opinion directly on the topic at hand. But now, apparently, because you've personally decided that everything Disney are doing with Star Wars is worthless... I would echo Ingram 's feelings in that the car has already been crashed, and the passengers inside killed. Whether it is dumped into the sea now doesn't so much matter, although I kinda would prefer to save the remains for a future postmortem, you know? That car was running very well in the 2000s and I wouldn't mind it in a museum, even if its wreckage. ...it's fine to petulantly demand (and in other people's hard-crafted threads) that all Disney references must be purged from the George Lucas section, like some jumped-up little SJW (or "social media mob") that you allegedly despise? Have you been binge-reading "1984" and thought you'd try and unironically build a community around it? Instead of shouting the odds and making weird, obtuse demands in other people's threads, why not learn some tolerance? Why not respect what the other person wants? Why not see that you're kind of alone in being this extreme, and that it's exactly this sort of repressive, segregationist foolishness that Naberrie Fields was founded to get away from?
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Post by Ingram on Aug 11, 2020 4:17:58 GMT
Not for nothing, but, I went a little haywire back in February with my adoration for Return of the Jedi; maybe even spent myself on the matter, as to why, perhaps, I haven't much more to add here. But reading through all of this certainly sheds a prism of light. Good stuff. I mean, Episode VI... seriously. It's like the Search for Spock/ Beyond Thunderdome of the OT (or vice versa) and, just so we're clear, I do rank both those third installments of their respective series above their sequel predecessors, where most others do not. I don't know what to say about Return of the Jedi at this point, except maybe... This scene is rad: There are no humans in this scene. Nothin' but droids and Gamorrean pig guards. Existential terror highlighted with a comical C-3PO double-take... Profound motif: laughing pig guard is later mirrored by laughing backseat driver Ewok inside the AT-ST. Episode VI gets the joke.
...then followed by existential mockery. And can we just take a moment to appreciate a scene in a Star Wars movie that for once isn't about galactic struggle, the Force, heroic fates or even droids appealing to human characters, but where center staged is R2's ongoing cosmic navigation through life? Turns out, I guess, they had need for him on Jabba's sail barge, where determined he would "fill in nicely".
ROTJ-4LYF
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Post by Cryogenic on Aug 12, 2020 3:13:33 GMT
Not for nothing, but, I went a little haywire back in February with my adoration for Return of the Jedi; maybe even spent myself on the matter, as to why, perhaps, I haven't much more to add here. I fixed your link for you. Your link was pointing to the page instead of the post -- and boy, what a post!!! Gorgeous and stunning work. That has to be the most beautiful and the most sublime post yet made on Naberrie Fields. I don't know why I didn't comment on it back then. I was clearly remiss not to. Maybe I was overwhelmed by the holy white light. It's a phenomenal exegesis and encomium to the saga entire. Ingram, you amazing bastard, you! As for your addition to this thread... You know, for your 77th post, that wasn't bad at all. I never got into the "Mad Max" thing (Ingram dies), but I certainly hear you on your "Search For Spock" analogy. That could be my favourite of the so-called "Genesis Trilogy" (II, III, IV). It's an underrated marvel. Has a lovely, relaxed tone, and a nifty flare about it in places, doesn't it? It definitely (to my mind) manages a poetic grace, in places, despite its campy-absurd B-movie feel (and because?). A hidden gem. Those gauche, deep-saturated colours, combined with the gaudy costumes, also make it feel like the 1980s music video version of Trek. Leonard Nimoy did a heck of a job. This movie has some sauce. Oh, and: ain't Kruge such a better villain than the over-heralded Khan of the previous film? Impressive. They can make planets.Oh, yes. New cities. Homes in the country. Your woman at your side. Children playing at your feet. And overhead, fluttering in the breeze, the flag of the Federation! Charming. Station!
(I want to break out my DVD and watch Star Trek III again after this post). I love that whole sequence. It's such a delightful "detour", of sorts: a whole mini-narrative in itself; a fabulous system feature of the saga, as you once wrote eloquently about. God, ROTJ is a kickass movie! Lucas once said he wasn't sure that any character would make it through all nine intended episodes of the Star Wars saga, but he was hoping that R2-D2 and C-3PO would: "I'd like to see the robots go through them, but I don't know whether they will."And, in a way, that's exactly what we see happening in Jabba's Palace -- if Jabba's Palace is symbolically interpreted as the dark funhouse (murderhouse/grindhouse) of the saga in its oddly irreverent and skittish (and skit-laden) entirety. Heck, the droids are even sauntering down a sort of "royal road", of sorts, at the beginning -- in a nice reprise of them wandering the deserts of Tatooine (now both of them are most certainly heading toward a pinpointed destination: with a surreal and sneaky mission). This time, Threepio is semi in-the-know, and even gets to translate. Indeed, he's needed just to get past that big-ass door. His robot-names for himself and Artoo, in Huttese, are also amusing. They sound regal. Nice. Anthony Daniels on fine form as usual. Some nice prequel resonances there with Anakin (the "maker" of See-Threeps), too: Thrust into and pulled apart by the light. Again, I see your arm-raise, and I raise you another... arm-raise: From mocked to exalted. Yes. I must get my proper arm reinstalled.Artoo is real the real vergence in the Force. I love EV-9D9. A little Jar Jar-esque with his gangly arms, but far more cold and evil -- and voiced by Richard Marquand! I think it's still the only time a Star Wars director speaks in their own movie to that degree. What a lovely fella he was. Really got stuck in. Also -- check out this "beady little eyes in the dark" motif: Seeing in the gloom. Light returning. Like the Jawas in ANH. That would be a cool licence plate.
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Post by jppiper on Aug 12, 2020 6:48:29 GMT
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Post by Subtext Mining on Aug 12, 2020 20:31:56 GMT
Richard Marquand is also the AT-ST pilot who gets pummeled by Ewoks, and who Han later impersonates.
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Post by Cryogenic on Aug 12, 2020 22:10:27 GMT
Richard Marquand is also the AT-ST pilot who gets pummeled by Ewoks, and who Han later impersonates. That's right. His character name is Major Marquand. Reading Richard Marquand's Wikipedia page, I see the second film he directed was called "Birth Of The Beatles" -- and yes, it was about that quirky quartet, though it was a dramatisation of their early years and hence they were played by actors. That would therefore make Richard Marquand the second big Star Wars name in the Original Trilogy to come from a Beatles film project (the first being DP Gilbert Taylor, the DP on the original movie, who was also the DP on "A Hard Day's Night"). JJ himself has made a couple of analogies to The Beatles. In 2011, he paid tribute to American makeup artist Dick Smith: In 2015, he compared the brilliance of the original film to The Beatles: (Looks at the name of this message board). What the...?! (Best Plinkett voice) Get these Beatles out of my Staaaaarrr Waaaars! jppiper : I'll get to your thing in a bit. More bashing? Oh, my...
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Post by jppiper on Aug 13, 2020 22:21:27 GMT
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Post by Cryogenic on Aug 14, 2020 1:46:12 GMT
Nice. I've been slowed in my effort/desire because it's been so darn hot in the UK the last few days. How do people from hotter climes cope with talking Star Wars or doing any of those lesser activities they call "living"? Blegh! I guess this explains why Jabba is such a corpulent sultan-slug, and why his palace is the way it is. What the hell else can you reasonably do when it gets sweltering? I'm with Jabba on this now! His ironic punishment: to be blown up in an even-hotter reconfiguration of matter as he becomes one with his own sail barge. Goodbye, cruel world. Annnnnywaaay.... Firstly, for completion's sake, let's import the whole miserable, irritating thing: Breaking it down a sentence or sentence-grouping at a time: Why? I guess they're going to elaborate. I would consider the contention that something is "awful on so many levels" to actually be something of a compliment. All of us are awful on some levels, but to be awful on "so many levels" takes considerable skill. This opening sentence is clearly an attention-grabber, but at least they state their intentions right out of the gate -- gotta give 'em that much. This is going to sound snarky, but it's called acting. Of course, actors also draw on their own real-life anxieties and issues. Given how much admiration he had for Alec Guinness in the original film, and how attached to his character he became, and how outspoken he is in general, I'm sure Mark Hamill could well have had issues with this sudden turn of events. Rinzler's "Making Of" book might be helpful in this regard. But here's a reminder from earlier: Actors are called upon to act. They have to make their choices seem half-genuine. Give a Super Mario coin to Mark Hamill on this one? Perhaps we should give one to the director, Richard Marquand, too. That's a loaded example (no pun intended). Funnily enough, the American right uses a different aphorism: "Guns don't kill people, people do." I would say the truth is more in the middle: a superposition of factors. Applying this to the Vader situation, Obi-Wan is obviously covering his behind, but not without reason. Losing Anakin to the Dark Side was clearly a traumatic event that was a personal calamity for Obi-Wan (and also Anakin's wife and children), and also a disaster for the galaxy; since it resulted in the near-total erasure of the Jedi Order and solidified the rule of Palpatine, all but ensuring there was no-one strong enough to stand up to the Empire for a generation or more. Furthermore, in the PT (ROTJ leading to the prequels, the prequels making ROTJ better), Obi-Wan clearly swallows Yoda's fatalistic assumption: "The boy you trained, gone he is, consumed by Darth Vader." And all the way back in Episode I, Qui-Gon gives him the toolset to deny the more painful and mundane truth of the matter, with his emphasis on Obi-Wan's dim view of Anakin back then being merely "[his] point of view" -- ironically, by the end of the PT, Obi-Wan has apparently accepted the fact that Anakin is now a Sith, and essentially no more; and in the OT, he reclaims this rebuke to justify the same negativity his master once scolded him over. Perhaps, in doing that, there is even a tiny bit of deference showing through from Obi-Wan to Qui-Gon. Qui-Gon was right; "I (Obi-Wan) was wrong." It is interesting to speculate where this whole notion of "points of view" comes from in-universe. If Obi-Wan got it from Qui-Gon, where did Qui-Gon get it from? The obvious answer is Dooku. But then the same question immediately arises again: where did Dooku get it from? Palpatine is the only other prequel character to use the epigram in a mentor-ish way (I'm excluding some other examples, like Nute Gunray saying to Amidala: "In time, the suffering of your people will persuade you to see our point of view" -- though this would be the first use of the term in ascending episode order). Was he having an influence on Dooku even then? If so, the legacy of the Sith on Obi-Wan's thinking and on "The Tragedy Of Darth Vader", and the whole destiny of the Skywalker family, goes back a long way. Of course, this person is complaining about the insertion of the "point of view" concept out of universe. There's not much I can say, other than, contrary to what they assert, it might be a good thing to teach young people that adults often lie or tell selective versions of the truth. We don't live in a happy, shiny world -- fictional paragons of virtue can and should be flawed if they're to stand up to the cold light of reality. Star Wars may be romantic fantasy, but it can still have a grain of reality amidst the fantasy. Star Wars is also a poetic construct. Here's another reflection on Obi-Wan's line in that same vein from a great book that analyses the PT's characters and themes (maybe the first of its kind): ROTJ bestowed something pretty big on the series when it chose that particular rationalisation and put it into the mouth of Obi-Wan. Googling the term produces plenty of Star Wars-related results. A few months ago, the official site even co-opted it for a small opinion piece where the first and last "big battles" of the Lucas Saga (the finales of TPM and ROTJ) are pitted against one another: As I also mentioned earlier, there was a neat essay within a book on the series bearing the same title published in 2005. I think these uses of the term imply a knowing quality regarding the trickster element of the series, where things are constantly subverted and turned on their head; while also paying tribute to the gravity of the concept enclosed by the term -- i.e., sometimes, you can have your cake and eat it, and maybe the whole "point of view" thing isn't any more problematic that it was intended to be. tl;dr: humans are complex, yo. Let's continue here: The thing is, that's exactly what Obi-Wan already admitted, in TESB! Getting desperate as Luke appears determined to leave: "Luke, I don't want to lose you to the Emperor the way I lost Vader." Everything else the person is saying is implicit in Obi-Wan's use of the dodge in ROTJ. Even in Star Wars, with as many signposts as there are, not everything needs to be spelled out to the viewer. It seems they just want a hand-hold because they personally dislike Obi-Wan's shady rationalisation. Unfortunately, we rarely get those in life -- again, why should fantasy be any different? Another thing worth pondering here is that Luke clearly isn't ready to learn the truth about Vader in ANH. He's far too green to start with. When your day consists of stressing about missing out on going to Tosche Station to pick up some power converters, you've arguably got other issues to sort out first. By the time we get to ROTJ, we see that Luke has matured considerably since we first saw him running chores for his aunt and uncle, and he has now grown in his power and intuition. Remember, in ANH, when first training with the remote, he doubts anything can be accomplished with the blast shield down, just as he whines in TESB about never being able to get his X-Wing out of the swamp. Funnily enough, when he loses his hand and is left truly vulnerable on the weather vane, he seems to rapidly grow up. If he took his first few steps into a larger world in ANH, he's practically thrown kicking and screaming from that world, and totally reborn (obvious birth canal imagery in those tubes he falls into), in the final act of TESB. It's like unlocking the deeper secrets of nature -- getting humbled and (re)ascending the ladder of knowledge: Personally, I think Obi-Wan simply vanishing and running away from the question -- playing hide and seek within the fabric of Cosmic Force -- would be a far shittier thing to do. Obi-Wan already said he couldn't interfere and remained silent at the end of TESB. In ROTJ, it's time for him to actually spend a few minutes explaining himself to Luke and the audience. If Obi-Wan appeared only to disappear upon an awkward question, that would make him no better than Trump abruptly walking away in the middle of a press conference, or (sticking with Star Wars here) Vader in this pretty hilarious meme: Man, those Skywalkers... These are pipsqueak criticisms. It is possible to slay ROTJ much more seriously -- as Jon Lewis does in this powerful critique from 1985. Some quotes starting with an examination of Star Wars as all-consuming spectacle: Analysing the opening rescue sequence at Jabba's Palace and linking it back to the series' overt manifestation of spectacle (the author argues that Star Wars *is* spectacle): Commenting on the final, climactic confrontation of the film: Commenting on the series' disregard for everyday workers and the non-elites of the universe: Commenting on the series' hyper-contained and patronising attitudes toward sexuality (read: especially female sexuality): Commenting on the series' troublesome relationship with pious moralising and violence: I'll leave the reader to explore the rest and consider the "Dark Side" of Star Wars in greater detail -- such could make for ten other posts combined. Arguably, they do see Star Wars as propping up militarism and imperialism more than is actually borne out in reality. Yet the essay, in my view, remains pretty devastating; instead of going after low-hanging fruit from other fans who can't see around the relatively low castle walls, I think this essay would be the one to tackle. ROTJ has exactly the form, manner, and bearing of the other Star Wars films -- it nailed down the style and suggested the type of material and viewpoint and inherent aggressivity (as spectacle) of the PT and all forthcoming films. Or did it? Maybe ROTJ's similitude with the PT, which at first seems hidden and then obvious, is actually an illusion. Despite the prequels picking up plot points and rhyming with ROTJ very closely, the PT may be so divorced in style and content that that's why people were thrown for a loop. If that's the case, the whole premise of this thread is misleading, and ROTJ actually has little to do with the prequels. Perhaps the prequels were actually crafted by an "alternate universe" George Lucas very removed from the one that saw the OT to completion. If so, it's questionable if Star Wars resolves into a twelve-hour movie at all. Or maybe it's as the author of the essay says of ROTJ itself: the PT and OT are really "two halves" that have been "artificially grafted together in order to form a more appropriate spectacle length". Think of Anakin being remade as Darth Vader at the end of the PT. The human remade into the machine in order to fit the spectacular nature of the story construct. As a result, the human is turned into a walking parody -- stretched out, compressed, sealed away, crudely re-animated to fit broader aesthetic purposes. Moreover, if Lucas has spectacularised the world, what is it he was really hoping to say -- and have we all misunderstood Star Wars completely? Or are prequel fans merely closer to the truth than those clinging rigidly to the OT? Remember Lucas' words from earlier: "The real story hasn't even been told yet!" Perhaps, in the PT, we move from a place of juvenile wish fulfilment (the OT), with scrappy humour, idealised heroics, and rogues on the frontier; to a place of beguiling civilisational wonders, flawed decision-making, and complex adult knowing -- and complexes (e.g., Anakin's Oedipal struggle) in general. Even Lucas' extensive use of digital technology in the prequels gives them a weird sheen and a whole other sense of character: a whole "other"-ness in general. No wonder Obi-Wan and Vader conveniently "forget" about their own past. It's all about those points of view...
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